I want to ask all pros on /ic/ (if there are any) When you started

>>2894182
NGMI

>>2894247
Good god I have to filter this garbage, fucking autists

>>2894247
Every fuckig time i see this i get hard ( ͡º ͜ʖ͡º)

>>2894182
I've always done commissions. How much people are willing to pay you shows you how good you are. Started with $5 commissions, up till $500-$900 now.

I'm job hunting for an in-house position now, but never make it even to the interview stage. What does this mean? That I'm not good enough yet.

Working for clients pushes you out of your comfort zone - but pick clients that you like. Don't pick dudes that just try to squeeze you and promise you exposure. Get clients with high yet fair expectations.

Don't stop sleeping, eating or going outside. You just get depressed and less productive overall.

Log how much time you spend drawing pen-to-paper.
That means, don't include toilet breaks or looking for references or dreaming up ideas. It's your pen-to-paper time.

>>2894720
Do you do mainly backgrounds or characters?

>>2894720
>Don't stop sleeping, eating or going outside. You just get depressed and less productive overall.
Pretty much this. I'm technically a pro but I am struggling to survive and am extremely depressed and reclusive. It means that even though I have a lot of time I am not productive and life isn't enjoyable. I don't really recommend doing it like this.

As for when I started out, at the very beginning I found doing studies boring but quickly it changed and I found it to be fun which allowed my to study a lot more than other people did. Later I found myself reference bound and lacking in creativity and so started focusing on that instead and now it's a bit reversed again where I prefer making my own images to studying, so I sort of combine the two where I learn from reference through mental notes and observations and apply it to my own creative work. I still do the occasional study but not as much as when I was a beginner.

>>2894730
When did you realize you weren't a beginner anymore?

>>2894730
please, i'm curious about how you managed to build on your creativity?

>>2894732
Well I learned the basics of things, like how to copy an image accurately, within the first few months probably. I guess I got out of beginner pretty quickly, but then going from intermediate to pro was where it's harder to tell and the line is more blurred in my opinion. I'd say that when I had a 5 star sketchbook on conceptart.org and got paid work from cold emails to companies is when I started to cross that threshold? Hard to say though. I still have a lot of self doubt and trouble determining my own level.

>>2894736
I'm not that creative really. I just had some mental blocks that made me scared to paint from imagination and because of that I was much weaker at it since I never practiced it. I guess it came down to forcing myself to paint from my imagination more and I got more comfortable with it. At that point it's a matter of thinking about the stuff /ic/ doesn't talk about as much. Like instead of worrying about values and anatomy which I already had a decent understanding of, I began thinking more about stuff like design and storytelling. I'm still working on it though. I do put a lot of thought into what makes an image interesting and what I can do to add interest to an image. I take a lot of small ideas from other artists too that I like and try to make them my own or use it as a starting point to come up with my own work that in the end may not resemble it at all.

>>2894720
Without knowing your level - not getting to the interview stage doesn't mean you're not good enough - that said it's a good mentality to have rather than facing the fact that hiring managers are scum and a studio values convenience over skill.

>>2894745
thanks dude! i'm around lower intermediate level myself, but it's come to the point where i can draw but have no idea what to (and can't design at all), which is upsetting.

>>2894745
Is there an artist you'd compare yourself to that you could post that might be around your skill level? (I know you said you have a difficult time determining your level) Or maybe you'd be willing to post an unfinished sketch of yours? Thank you for your time and I understand if you choose not to do either. I suppose I'm just curious as I'm in the process of learning, but have never made money from my art.

>>2894182
Made it anon here. Can't lie, grinding is good but its the combo of """talent"""" + fortunate circumstances (support) + discipline(grinding) + and ""luck"" you really need it all. People who romanticize it with just grinding are lying to themselves and you.

Taste is also a factor.

>>2894720
I'm going to take a guess, but your portfolio isn't actually targeted for the in house positions you're chasing. If your work is very illustration they will not consider you for a designer role, even if the genre/style is right. 900 usd is good work, keep going.

>>2894789
>Taste is also a factor.
What did he mean by this

I hope you don't mean my taste in things. They might think I'm a fraud when they realize I'm not deeply invested into anything.

>>2894816
>What did he mean by this
Don't be lame, don't make lame shit.

>>2894730
Dude if you really feel like that help me become a better artist. This way you will have some human contact, see your pupil get better, use your time better and I will also help you with your lakc of creativity. I really need some sort of teacher/mentor but I don't want to pay 1000$ for it

>>2895455
I already have contact online though. I email with people, post on /ic/, and am part of a discord. It's more in real life that I am reclusive. Also not to be too rude, but I would prefer spending my time and energy on my own development over someone else's. I don't mind giving crits and helping out, but I wouldn't want to do a full mentoring of someone and invest a huge chunk of time and energy towards it especially when there is no compensation.

>>2895515
Heh I tried. I'm just looking for someone to help me with art considering that fucking masters like peter Han ask for a kidney just to give some critique once a week.
/ic/ is too unreliable considering you never know who is replying to you

Pro here.

Honestly, this idea of being a reclusive, suffering artist to be good is just a meme. It is a silly idea to hide away, have an unhealthy life-style and suddenly get good and start being successful. Just think about it for more than a second.

- Having an unbalanced lifestyle is more likely to create hurdles for you: Ignoring any social life means you'll lack a positive environment, fresh ideas, alternate views and positive feedback.
- Unhealthy / irregular lifestyle (like lack of sleep, too much grinding, bad food, lack of exercise) cause physical problems, lack of energy, mental issues. Again making things worse.
- Focusing too much on your progression, your 'art' means you can miss out on life and good opportunities. You're going to regret that time you locked yourself way and missed great experiences. You will iss opportunities to grow, to become wiser, and to learn.
- also, having this unbalanced lifestyle will make it hard to find a good lifestyle later on. You'll have the extra effort of breaking bad habits, you need to learn good habits, and experiment to find the right balance. You could have done that while you learn.

You want to be a pro? Acquire the habits of an adult. Manage your time, take care of yourself, be disciplined.
Be open-minded. Be curious. Expose yourself to new ideas and experiences.
Get some regular exercise. Just go out and walk. Just keep walking long enough until your brain quiets down and new ideas will come to you.

>>2895702
hah, real talk but aint no one tryna hear it.

>>2894720
>Started with $5 commissions, up till $500-$900 now.
>doesn't post anything

It's furries, right? Only they're stupid enough to pay this much on commission, I can literally hire Jorge Molina for less money than that, and get the bristol board, not just some digital copy.

>>2896785
How do people even get up to $500? I see DA artists whore themselves out doing good work at less than $100.

>>2896791

Either you have a pedigree, like the guy I just mentioned. Or, you have some sort of artificial demand in place by a niche subculture.

Either people have taste, and you can charge them accordingly. Or they have no taste, and you charge them accordingly.

I'm also not in the habit of commissioning people for anything other than projects. If I see someone I like, I am going to approach them first to do pencils/digital lines, and then I am going to break bread with them and let them know that unless they somehow have a plug these are the rates we're going to use.

Guys in the industry can charge such high prices because you literally have to beat what they are getting paid by the industry in order for them to consider taking time away from that work. If you don't work in the industry and you are getting paid that much, I am going to have to assume it's an incredibly weird scenario that cannot be duplicated by your average Joe.

Also, location matters.

If I hire a guy from Singapore, I am going to pay him less than the dude from New Jersey.

>>2894182
>Because I feel like that's the way to do it, just shutting yourself from everything for some time and then coming back to life when you are ready.
Depression likely incoming, don't do that. Also, how would you know what "being ready" is?
>>2895702
this x1000

>>2894789
>talent
Why do people insist on roleplaying like this exists? Does it make you feel like a realist or something?

>>2896810
It's in parentheses for a reason.

I practice construction drawing (vehicles, insects) and then attempt to redesign them everday. I am on the right path, Pros?

>>2896846
Practice needs good critique to go with it. or at least a bad feedback method like if you're copying a reference for observation practice, and you overlay the drawing over the reference to see mistakes.

>>2897019
You're right, but until I save 30k to go to FZD I can only keep trying and hoping some good Anon will give me critiques in here I guess.

>>2896810
Well it does seem to exist. Besides centuries of anecdotal evidence, there have been several studies that have provided solid evidence against the whole 10k hour rule and things. I think the existence of talent is not all that debatable, but the importance of it is. You can reach a pro level with no talent though it might take a bit longer. Whether or not you can reach a master level with no talent is up for debate. It's difficult though because it's not something that easily measured, both your talent level and your art level.

>>2897036
ffs the book that popularized the 10k meme, Outliers, itself debunks it. Thats how you can tell these retards never read it, just parroting eleventh hand knowledge.

Quality thread.

>>2897035
It's 40k anon

>>2897884

Well...hopefully 4 years from now I'll have the money for that. If I ever get in, I promise to make a guide so that anyone in /ic/ can recreate an schedule on what they do, what how.

>>2894722
I do everything. Backgrounds, vehicles, creatures, characters, props. Also all genres.
Haven't done sci-fi yet. Don't do graphic design.

>>2894752
Could be, because I job hunt internationally. But my friends that are ahead of me get a callback within three days regardless of relocation issues. Because their work is just so damn good.

>>2894798
Hey, you hit the nail on the head! I'm actually starting a design-focused project this week to buff it up.

>>2896785
Nope, board game art, marketing illustration, ... Here's stuff I posted:
>>2886601
>>2891038
>>2894609
>>2887951
>>2898136
Is personal stuff though and also unfinished. Mmh. Gotta finish it up this week, so I can focus on mah new project.

>>2896791
You refuse the lower paying clients.
Also, my art is not that good, but I give clients EXACTLY what they want. Some people make beautiful art but it doesn't match the client's vision. Seriously, communication is as important as technical skill. Make your clients happy!

>>2898204
Adding one more thing... It's not a dreamjob, guys.
Yes, I love doing this. The idea of doing anything else hurts me. But I'm still struggling, hunting for gigs continuously.
I estimate another ~7 years before I'm comfortable. 7 years of growing my skill and network.

I see a lot of art friends dropping out of the grind. The job hunting kills them. You need grit and patience.

You need to have obsession. If no one paid you for it and you had a nice 9-5 job - would you still be drawing?

>>2898096
Is this bait? do you really believe FZD is a good school? All the foundation knowledge he can offer is in his videos. Think hard about this one. Allum portfolios are wack, ripped off his teachers, horror stories on this board about the school.

>>2898302
His videos do not talk about fundamentals. Fundamentals = how values and shading works, 1-2-3-point perspective calculations, keep proportions when rotating, basic shapes rendering, stuff like that.
Do not skip fundamentals.

>>2898204
Are your commissions private or for companies? How do you get them? I feel that my level is actually a bit higher than your but I get worse paying jobs than you.

>>2898313
I know what fundamentals are, thanks. He outlines all the shit in his videos and suggests exercises, the work is still on you. Don't get fleeced.

>>2898340
Betcha there aren't any.

File: 3577737591_e219ff0071.jpg (102KB, 500x376px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 500x376px

>>2898302

No, it's not bait. I do believe FZD is a good school. I believe having the experience of being taught by professionals in a competitive environment where there's an incentive to work 16 hours a day on this craft is definitely worth the money, specially considering the speed at which one can progress when doubts can be resolved almost instantly, and you get to learn the tools of the trade and lil secrets everyday. I am going to work hard regardless while I save money, so I can prepare both my skill and mental discipline in hopes some years from now I'll be able to join.

You complain about the students work being copy & paste of what the teachers do, but remember that they are there for only one year and the amount of progress they do in terms of fundamentals is staggering. It is understandable, in my view that some of the artwork would look similar as one would concern oneself more with the proper execution of ideas rather than the originality of the idea itself, there's always time to develop ''style'' or subject matter preference in the future. Also, don't forget FZD is a school of design, and design work itself tends to be similar between designers. It's all about communicating an idea clearly, not just making pretty art.

>>2898443
It might be worth taking out a loan for the advanced program and job hunt intensely rather than to spend 4 years of your life waiting. You also need money for food and shelter.

Another plus: that loan will drive you even harder to work your butt off.

>>2894182
Im not pro as art isnt my profession, but I just did a bit of fundamentals(not suffocating amount) and got significantly better. You can't cram it all in a single day.

>>2898452


I'll look into it, it's not a bad idea.

>>2898443
Algenpfleger went from next to nothing to competent in ~3 years, and arguably better technically than most FZD grads after 4 years - if you think you have the resolve why don't you just look at pushing yourself that way. I could link you to almost every workflow you'd be taught by FZD on youtube.

What level are you at? What do you want? A study partner? The general "competitive" and ego driven environment? Being surrounded by a bunch of 20 somethings talking about how "Juicy" the concept is sounds so utterly absurd and odd when related to acquiring a good sense of aesthetics.

I find it really hard to empathize with your way of thinking without knowing your situation though, it'd be interesting to have someone like you to do studies with though to see if you can even maintain a daily routine of drawing.

>>2898502
Isn't FZD a one year program? Also kek at using Algen as a benchmark of improvement. Pretty much no one else has been able to level up the same way he did in that time, and he also had the help of Jana and Alex with him that gave him a huge boost and is often overlooked, plus he sort of plateaued for a while after all that since he hasn't adapted his approach to studying much.

>>2898204
>>2898259
As someone who's been doing this for quite awhile, These are all true.

>>2898519
Got any other advice to give?

File: zedig3years.jpg (367KB, 1007x2021px) Image search: [Google]

367KB, 1007x2021px

>>2898503
Mindcandyman was similar although mainly traditional? Jamajurabaev improved quickly, same for Zedig. I think theres a lot of artists showcasing rapid self improvement although not so many with it recorded from absolute zero to hero. I'm confident I could trawl through some of the older deviantart galleries to pull up examples though.

FZD is a one year program but the person I was quoting seemed to also be talking about saving up for 4 years to acquire the money to access it, by which point they could have exceeded the artists that attend there. Even so, depending on the persons skill level at the time of attending I think theres still better options than a cookie cutter production house sweatshop.

Fair point with Algen having Alex and Jana to grow quickly with, his work as he collaborated with them improved a lot faster.

>>2898532
Jama and Zedig are also really rare people for this improvement stuff. I didn't say no one else has that improved quickly, but I think it's unrealistic to set your expectations there when only a handful of people have done it and they all became very famous as a result of it. Also Mindcandyman took like 7+ years to improve to a pro level iirc, like his journey is impressive because he was starting off super below most people's starting point, but he he took a lot longer than you might think to do it.

>>2898527
-Yeah, Don't expect much in the first years of your carreer. This has always been a huge problem when starting out.

-Not everyone will hit it big when starting out.

-Before applying for a studio job, make sure you understand quite well what their in house artstyle are and pander on it before you submit your portfolio for review.

- Expect , but not always, work long hours regardless if it's freelance or in house.

Also ask yourself. If you turn your passion into your day job, would it still be magical as it once were? because sometimes I ask that and look at some of my peers who died/ stagnated throughout the years and it pains me alot. They forgot to lift a pencil during their free time and spent alot of time drinking and spending their salaries on things.

- If you are starting a family, this career has always been a hard thing to balance because of how time sensitive most projects are . SO please take into consideration the sacrifices you will give.

- Never ever stop learning new things like creative softwares and other methods that will defnitely be useful in the future. Don't be a purist. This industry is more focused on RESULT rather than the PROCESS.

- I guess this is more of apersonal thing... Learn finance.

MOney has always been the bane of many artist that I saw. There are 50 y-olds who are still batchelors and still living with his parents because he spent all his money on some other shit. There are some other artist I know that when he got gravely sick that he losts everything he had and his family broke up. There is also one famous japanese artist that became homeless after a long career in the video game industry.

So learning about finance, investments and business is an essential for personal growth.

Being poor and not earning a fucking dime in your art is pretty poetic in paper but that shit is a fucking nightmare in reality. I've experienced that when I was 19 and never again.

File: Latest batch.jpg (2MB, 1976x3416px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1976x3416px

>>2898502

I am /beg/ at best, currently going through Scott Robertson's How to Draw book, making constructions and learning VisCom from Peter Han so I can sketch efficiently and build up a visual library, I imagine you must be heaps ahead of me. I started 4 month ago so nothing great to show off besides fundamental studies (pic related). My goals are not clear, working in the industry hasn't never been my main wish, but I enjoy the process of learning history/design/symbolism so I can attempt to create cool artwork (Not that I can execute that very well yet). That keeps me motivated enough to put a minimum of 6 hours a day 5 days a week. I do enjoy competition, and I study partner sounds like fun. I don't know about the part of fellow 20 somethings talking about juicy stuff, I guess I would have to experience that first hand to give you an honest answer.

I would appreciate any sources that imitate the FZD workflow, as I've been trying to recreate a path to follow using their Syllabus.

>>2898559

I think this also depends on how you're looking at the people and what they're doing - I.e. people back around 07-12 conceptart would do their one thing, you'd get people grinding studies because it'd yield complements as they knew they could get a "result" that way. I'm also speaking for myself in that regard.

There aren't many people that trully tinker and constantly explore ideas, i think thats rare as seeing yourself fail so clearly when you're just starting out is demotivating. When you're in an environment that doesn't quite grasp the point of studying and you get it into your head that "reference is ok, everyone uses reference - therefore studying these photos is going to help me", its almost like the blind leading the blind.

I do think you could replicate their "success" by approaching art and failure in the same way that these artists did - However some people rage at games and trying to calm that autism is hard, so to convince an artist to tackle new ground and go back to square one isn't really something i've seen happen often and thats a more fundamental personality issue to overcome not a matter of the process taken to improve.

So in short, i think its "rare" because of environment issues and misinformation and a lack of acceptance to promote people to experiment.

>>2898615
Why have the times changed?

>>2898598

I'm pleasently surprised, if you're not letting yourself become complacent when you get better at drawing that kind of thing I can see you improving quickly by the time the years out. These videos should cover pretty much every way of working you'd want to find whats comfortable for you. It'd be worth experimenting with them and considering them for yourself but thats a lot to take in.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC11Nhdqdd9SdwlB5DdPI_vQ/videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/SenseDigitalArt/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU5ThXAtxgt2AXNru7r7veg

https://vimeo.com/weststudio

>>2898617
I don't think they have, my intention to pointing to that time on conceptart was to give an example of a lot of people doing a certain thing and giving a potential reason for that behaviour. I think that gumroad and places like FZD are detrimental to improvement due to more incestuous reasons now, people are just as afraid to deviate as they were back on conceptart, its just now the standard has shifted from photostudies to photobashing. How much longer will people be taking the Keloid and Aaron Beck approach to future soldier designs? How many more Giant statue heads do we need to see in overgrown environments? It's been about 4 years. My point isn't to be derogative here, mainly explain that I see personal growth being inhibited by different comfort zones and complacency.

>>2898637

Thank you for the sources, Anon.

>>2898637
>How much longer will people be taking the Keloid and Aaron Beck approach to future soldier designs? How many more Giant statue heads do we need to see in overgrown environments? It's been about 4 years
The entertainment industry has ALWAYS been derivative as fuck. That's just how it works. It's always been incestuous, so there will be a small handful of guys doing creative work at a high level and then lots of people copying their subject matter and style. You can look back decades and it was the same thing, after any new giant movie or video came out there were numerous knockoffs in the following few years. Artists like Frazetta were copied endlessly, then for concept art guys like Syd Mead and the Star Wars sketchbooks became the most copied stuff, then Mullins and Jaime, now it's guys like RJ or Maciej. Techniques or surface tricks get copied, so do subject matter. People eventually get tired of zombies or whatever the current fad is and something new will come out which will get run into the ground eventually and the cycle repeats. I suspect the whole 80's nostalgia wave we're on now will die out in a couple years.

>>2898654
I think I've diluted the discussion by mentioning Keloid as this was initially in the context of artists improving in a short timeframe.

My point is that I think the environment will typically stifle or mislead the best route to improvement, be it the conceptart era of photo grinding or the prevalence of the photoshop tricks and gimmicks with photos for entertainment design now. I used examples of Zedig, Jama and Algen as people who typically experimented and improved quickly due to a thirst of the more fundamental knowledge and weren't afraid of failing by drawing something they weren't familiar with? I feel like im going to lack the nuance I want in my explanation.

My intention isn't to be critical of a production environment, whether or not I value it isn't relevent to the discussion or how rare or hard it is for someone to improve in 3-4 years of study. I'm just giving my reasons on what I think makes it people like Zedig/Jama rare.

>>2898668
Nice explanation. It's really tough to put in insane hours and fail repeatedly like that and to not just take the easy route of what others have done or have set out already. It's a good way to grow though for sure, just not many people are capable of it. I think too it's a less consistent route since it depends a lot on self analysis and on personal taste, so it's easy to stagnate instead of grow.

>>2898320
>>2898320
Both. Private folks with plans to self-publish though. I found that the cap for gifts/D&D characters 'n stuff is about $300.

Linkedin, Reddit, Upwork are my main sources. Randomly got one from Twitter and word of mouth. I cold call companies a lot and visit their employees on Linkedin. Never got a direct result from that, but things like "I can use you for this side project of mine..."

I just job hunt a lot and deal with the rejection based on price. When a client can't afford me, I refer them to Upwork/99designs, so we leave on a good note.

I do undercut for three clients, my first product design project, a client with a startup with heavy connections in the industry and a non-profit.

But usually it's just massive job hunting and 98% rejection.

>>2898259
Can i ask you what's your age? It's purely for the sake of fueling my selfdestructive obsession with having 3-4 years more than my art compadres.

>>2898204

>commercial work

You should have said so.

Is video game art a good field? And given proper study for a couple years would a normal guy be able to get a job in it? I can't afford to now, but some day in the future I might want to.

>>2901435
It's a huge field and still growing, but there's also a huge amount of competition in it because of this. Likely a couple years of study for a normal guy isn't enough unless you end up working for a tiny mobile games company.

>>2901435
> video game industry

Hope you have an aggressive personality as the field is quite compettitive.

Well the thing of any industries is that you have little to no job securities and can be very volatile. American (or western countries in this regard) vidya studio has alot of employee turnaround specially when the project flunked out and concept artists are usually the first to go.

Might as well get used to it and start getting your feet wet by freelancing first.

>>2901438

This guy knows what's up.

Video game studios have insane churn. Literally don't expect to work there for more than 18 months.

Everything you do is just pretty pictures that someone else is going to try and replicate in 3DS or some shit, it becomes extremely hard to justify your existence once they leave the pre-production stage.

>>2901438

Yes and no.

First of all, 'video game industry' is a major generalization. You're talking about major AAA studios that develop and publish games, smaller dev studios that make games for major publishers, outsourcing studios doing only concept work or content creation, mid-sized and small studios making games for pc, consoles, mobile devices, indie studios, major studios making games for social platforms, mobile devices, VR experiences, etc. etc.

Not every area is risky. Some mobile studios have been pulling in cash for years and are pretty safe with good job security. Working for an outsourcing studio is also quite safe, as they do not bear the risk if a game fails. Mobile game studios, especially the bigger ones, work on multiple titles at once and have income from multiple games as well, again, spreading the risk.

- Be careful with new start-ups, or any studio that's risking everything with one title.
- Be valuable. Either be a top specialist (like a very good tech artist or animator) that's always desirable to have, or be a good generalist. Someone who can be flexible, fulfill multiple roles and is therefore also always useful.

>>2901230
26

Was in a different field first, achieved goals, had no further goals so I switched.
I like this comic, might inspire you: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722

>>2901508
Fair point and nice breakdown of specifics anon!

My apologies for generelizing but from what I have experienced from jumping from one studio after another most lifespan tends to be around 2 months to 2 years (which is the longest I have been). I think the anon that asked the question is all about AAA industry as it is usually the most cliched assumption of any fresh bud.

>>2901515
>http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722
Whoa, that was really inspirational. Although, I'm not sure how much of it applies, but very interesting. 11 years is definitely a long time.