there are proven weightlifting routines and exercises available

>>2842385
>,some people still don't really improve even after years of practice. Why is this
They really aren't trying to get better. Improving involves conscious effort, focusing on specific areas, analyzing what you're seeing and what you're doing. Improvement comes from understanding. Simply repeating exercises won't make you improve.

Repetition will strengthen muscles, because that's how muscles work, but doing 1+1 over and over again won't teach you algebra.

>>2842391
>Repetition will strengthen muscles, because that's how muscles work
Spoken like a true dyel.

>>2842385
Read the sticky.

>>2842394
Thanks for the bump I guess

>>2842391
As a beginner, I've noticed that art reaches a point where you don't improve just by drawing, you really have to think about what you draw. Iterative drawing only works if you already know the subject and it's purpose is to practice your muscles and memory to draw a subject faster, NOT to learn any kind of form, for that should be learned before any sort of grind.

At least that's what I've seen at least.

because weightlifting is an obvious and short process that has also been researched due to health benefits
you get immediate results, you can see your muscles grow almost in real time, on a week to week basis, scientists can also with certainty tell you exactly how to grow your muscles despite being weak shits themselves

drawing on the other hand takes eighty years to master and everyone has their own way of doing it, there's no scientific method and the vast majority of master artists obviously can't be fucked sharing every tidbit of their learning process because why would they help other shits?
imagine if science didn't exist and you could only learn weightlifting techniques from world class bodybuilders, how many of them do you think would be fucked writing educational pieces to teach others to be as jacked as them? and whose to say whatever they did is the most efficient way of doing it?

>>2842385
consistency

>>2842468
People of all skill levels actually love to teach and give advice. It's a psychological thing, both satisfying your altruistic side by helping others and your ego by validating your knowledge and skill. Very few people who are skilled at something see beginners as a future threat that needs to be kept down.

>>2842391
you need both though, both repetition and conscious effort, simply understanding something once won't help you, you need to carve that shit into your brain through fully conscious repetition

>>2842480
i was pretty skilled at something and the worst thing i knew was teaching beginners if they ever asked me, it's not because i see them as a threat it's because i really just want to continue enjoying my hobby at my skill level rather than trying to explain things to others, it's time consuming and not fun

>>2842385
Some people don't lose weight or gain muscle after years of trying anon. Lack of motivation, interest, etc. The info's out there, they might even know about it, but do they actually follow it? Seeing it through is the hard part.

>>2842483

I am very skilled in another field and while I enjoy teaching, I find it frustrating to try to distill everything I've caught onto over the years things into a few easily understandable concepts. It's also difficult for people to understand that mileage in something changes your brain pathways and perception, you're basically blind to certain things as a beginner. It was easier to help out intermediates, but anybody who really wanted to improve would just practice, do the hours and find their own way

>>2842385
because there is this thing called...
TALENT
You either have it or you don't.

>>2842391
>doing 1+1 over and over again won't teach you algebra
That's a solid analogy.
I hope you don't mind me stealing it.

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>>2842550
There are different levels of talent.

Also, genetics exist that predispose everyone of base muscle mass, growth factor, and attainable peak.

>>2842385
People stagnate in all skills. I play a strategy board game which I go to a local club for (like chess) and there are players who have played for a decade or more that are weaker then me. It's not even that they're not trying to learn, they want to, but still get stuck at that single rank for years and years.

The problem is, is that they just don't learn correctly. They "study" books but never put it into practise, never analyse their mistakes, and never ultimately actually try and improve, regardless of what they think they're doing. Art is the same, you have to actively analyse your mistakes to get better. A book will only tell you what you need to know, and what the right thing is, you need to put it into practise.

A gym is a poor example because it's literally "do x" and you have improvement. There's no thought. Art and other things are "why am I not doing x", "how can I get closer to doing x", "okay you do x I need to get better at y"

>>2842590
*"to do x I need to get better at y"

>>2842590
>A gym is a poor example because it's literally "do x" and you have improvement. There's no thought

wow the DYEL fiesta in here

>>2842385
read the fucking sticky, there is plenty of ways to get good looking as well as getting good in drawing painting etc

>>2842593
Wtf are you on about. Are you seriously triggered at the fact people are saying that lifting weights isn't difficult? Not even the main point I was making lmao.

>>2842598
Yes but is there PROVEN ROUTINE that can be followed to get good???
Do you expect a student to learn calculus if someone just walked in the class, dumped a bunch of books in front of him and said "read these" then leave?

>>2842603
This. Drawing tutorials are missing structure. I am a beginner and have no idea where to start. The advice people give is pretty vague.

>>2842385

It all comes down to how you practice.

Do you get better at drawing by simply drawing?

Yes and no. If you draw something for a certain amount of times, you will get better at drawing it, but your overall drawing skills will not improve.

Drawing it's not a single skill. You might think you can draw anything from imagination if you practice simple forms, but that's not true (see: Proko). You can't learn how to draw animu waifus or mecha robots if all you do is draw portraits. You cannot learn how to draw kangaroos if you don't draw kangaroos (see: Proko).

If you want to draw X, study X from life, from references, from books, from 3d models... You push yourself out of your comfort zone.

Fundies are to be mastered before moving to something else. Don't worry. Fundies are not too hard: Perspective, values, color theory, basic anatomy, proportions, line control, symmetry... Those are the basis for everything that's ever drawn.

So, if you really want to improve you should look for getting out of your confort zone. Draw difficult angles, draw unfamiliar subjects, search for quality feedback and correct your mistakes.

What kind of bullshit routine are you looking for? There is no path you can take like learning calc or chemistry. All professional artists have gone through thousands of hours of learning and drawing, they have so much information and mechanical knowledge in their head. They do their best share how they got good but they know it all took time, that's why they say the best thing to do is draw and learn

A
5x5 weighted volume draws
5x5 overhead straight lines
3x8 rendering rows
1xF draw from imagination

B
5x5 reverse incline anatomy studies
5x5 barbell facial expressions
3x8 figure drawing curls
1xF anime curls

ABABABA
works best with ligameme supplement

>>2842644
Is that really all there is to it, or is it just because most artist's are a bunch of knuckle dragging morons and brute forcing everything is the only way they can learn...?
Work smart, NOT hard.
Also, there are more Leonardo's today than they were hundreds of years ago. Its thanks to the amount of progression the art world has made as far as information available so people can improve much faster and more efficiently, but we still have a long way to go. Its still really disorganized.

>>2842485
this

>>2842485
>implying those people actually try
>implying they don't just go t o the gym for like a few weeks, then give up and then are confused why they are still fat.
As someone who lost 45lbs from just lifting weights every day and cutting soda from his diet, those people are full of shit don't actually try at all.

>>2842385
there is,and like weightlifting there's different inherent skill levels

>>2843739

Underrated

>>2842619

Your brain needs to make new pathways to accustom you to using your arm muscles to make fine lines on a flat surface, using your eyes in a different way, looking critically at the world around you and translating it into 2D. This happens automatically if you GO DRAW.

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>>2842385
>some people still don't really improve even after years of practice
That´s the biggest crook of shit i ever heard.
I´ll bite the bait.
When people learn to draw, they want to create the same art style they enjoy, and please people who like the same art style.
If a guy is SERIOUS about learning, he will learn, even in severe adverse conditions (no quality education anywhere to be had, family against it,etc).
Half-assed attempts in a notepad while in the office with your colleagues talking shit about your taste and style ISN´T STUDYING ART.
Hours and hours assimilating techniques from a guy who ACTUALLY draws better than you and KNOW your artstyle, in an art classroom is a bit different.
Check the stick, do all the exercises, watch all the Vilppu videos and copy poses. After a year of continuous study, you WILL be way better than you were before.
Unless, you´re fishing for compliments in /ic/: DON´T WASTE YOUR TIME HERE. Trolls learned that they can get easily under people´s skin if they talk shit about their art.
Wanna see it? Post your work.

>>2842385

The gym equivalent for people drawing for years without improving would be going to the gym occassionally when you feel like it and lifting the same weights every time.

>>2842385

What are you trying to say? It's the same in either case.

With drawing you do hard things for you, and never fully expect you're doing stuff right. You don't expect to gain a higher level of art by drawing the same shit, and you know you're drawing the same shit because it's not difficult for you, you go through books/teaching/observation, and do it, and constantly challenge yourself, even if it's not fun and it's stressful.

The gym is the same, you go in there and go higher and higher with your weights, reps, time, etc. You can't stick to the same routine and weight forever because you'll just stagnate physically, you have to stress your muscles, even if it's painful. You'll know it's working because you'll feel it.

They both require effort and time, and different people can take different amounts of time to accomplish the level they wish to attain, the only real difference between the two is I would argue that getting into a decent physical shape from point 0, is a bit easier than getting from no art experience to visual appeal and knowledge.

the biggest hindrance to artist I honestly feel is maturity, because the younger you are the less you realize exactly what makes a piece of art good, and you don't understand the amount of time and effort that goes into good art.

>>2842385
Weightlifting requires more than just constant geometrically-increasing effort and good form to make you swole, it requires good nutrition, steady sleeping patterns and periods of rest.

The same is true of art, except in terms of nutrition you need to be taking in inspiring, invigorating inspiration, ideas, philosophies, attitudes, and so on to progress. An interest in the classics, pre-Frankfurt school philosophy, literature, history, etc and a willingness to introspect on your own tastes, biases, and reasons for why you enjoy and connect with certain ideas over others will propel you far. Intentionality>vague metaphysical touchy-feely bullshit.

>>2842385
Drawing shares some mental ability.
Just improving muscle mass does not.

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>>2842391
> repetition
> strength

>>2843902
Call it not even trying then, whatever.
Point is, they don't actually end up putting in the work.
>just go t o the gym for like a few weeks, then give up
for some people this is trying, or trying and failing, either way, it's different from someone not even picking something up.

Human bodies all work the same (mostly), human minds do not

>>2842385
People don't get better because they don't want to.
Because they're scared they may actually have to do something with their art once they do.
Because they like the starving artist stereotype as it masks their lacking lives in a shroud of "artsy" mystery.
Because "getting better" is a goal and the more they postpone it the longer they can go without thinking about what they'll do next.
Because they're losers, are afraid of life and hate themselves.

>>2842385

THAT'S WHY DRAWING IS COOL

SUCH A THING DOES NOT EXIST

>>2842599
Not that anon.

>Are you seriously triggered at the fact people are saying that lifting weights isn't difficult?

If lifting correctly and with a good program wasn't difficult everyone would be swole as fuck, wouldn't they?

Also that other anon is correct, it isn't just "literally do x and you have improvement". You have to

1. Have correct form

Many lifts are actually specific skilled movements. This includes cleans, jerk/olympic press, and snatch. But it also includes squats and bench press. You very much can do all of those incorrectly and doing so will not give you any improvement.

2. A training plan

Walking into the gym and doing some curls every time and skipping days in between isn't going to give you results. On top of having consistency you need to tailor your lifting program to your specific sport. Plans like those already exist (such as Bigger, Faster, Stronger) and are adopted by, for example, football programs all over the country.

3. A good nutrition plan

None of that matters if you aren't eating the right foods and eating enough of them.

4. Sleep

Even more so than being hungry or eating only junk food it's difficult to perform at your best when you're sleep deprived.

Just like not everyone is at the level of Steve Huston or Glenn Vilppu, not everyone is an Olympic athlete or pro body builder. Because they all take a significant commitment to work, skill development, and education.

>>2842385

There is tho, practice the fundamentals and you'll improve where you like it or not.


>Perspective
>Rendering (Including colour)
>Gesture
>Anatomy (including design for mechanical forms)
>Composition (including thumb nails and story telling)

>Your medium of choice

>>2842550
>talent
I hate this meme
drawing is all about visuallizing and learning. it's pratically impossible for someone to be innactively able to draw things from birth

>>2842385

Repetition does work, but not in the way you think it does.

Not only do you have to know about the theory of drawing techniques, you have to apply those techniques into every work so that it will stick in your head.

Don't just apply it once, do it several times so that it'll be cemented there.

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>>2848832
underrated post

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For those of you telling me that it can't be done, fuck off.
Then explain to me how the fuck the Chinese can do it????
They have literal art schools that are Kim Jung Gi factories that are pumping out toddlers with the skills of Robert Anderson.
They MUST have figured out a way.

>>2853439
You only see the best of Chinese students, bud.

Art is frustrating, but it gets better after a while. Try to explore all of the aspects of drawing/painting (composition, perspective, color theory, etc) separately and see what you enjoy the most. Draw things you actually enjoy drawing. Then you can start working from there.

>>2853439
Yeah, it's called do it or you will die in some random shit hole and be shamed for your entire life. Have you seen the Chinese students' work ethic? Literally working all the time just so the can pass a test and live life. They don't know life outside of studying. But they know talent is a meme and hard work is really how you get places. More hours, more work and they can do anything. That is how the Chinese think and how they get so far. If you can not think like Chinese, you will have a harder time doing what they do.

>>2853453
Just working hard isn't enough to make stuff like that.
They have to have some kind of method that students routinely do that gets them the results they desire. Like lifting weights, but for your brain and stuff.

>>2853471
Genius chinese student here.

Its all about having a small dick. No girl will ever love you for who you are, so you have to bust your ass off.

We have an easier time with squinting as well.

I hope this helps.

>>2853471
Yeah, they do actually! It's called homework, deadlines and a schedule. They get a ton of homework to really emphasize the stuff they have to know and there are a ton of supportive people out there too such as tutors so finding help isn't even a problem. The Chinese have also learned that dozing off is a waste of time and can keep being in the zone for a very long time because they have no other choice to get stuff done. Waste one hour or so one hour of work? One hour is a lot of time and they get every minute they can. All of this while eating properly and getting proper sleep.

>>2853487
American art schools do all of those things too, but we don't have artists that skilled.
They are literally using chinese secrets

>>2843902
That's the fucking point, anon
In any field, if you don't improve it's directly correlated to how hard you try

That is exactly one of the reasons, there is so much content out there that you get overwhelmed and dont even know where to start. Then when you finally make up your mind and start somewhere you dont know how to apply what you learned. Nobody seems to lay a clear path for you to follow, so you always jumping from resources to resources trying and never getting anything done. Sure there is, follow this:

>Perspective
>Rendering (Including colour)
>Gesture
>Anatomy (including design for mechanical forms)
>Composition (including thumb nails and story telling)

Yeah sure, that is just like telling someone: See that plane, climb the stairs, go to the cockpit, turn it on, and fly. Thats it.

To make things worse, can you really say that there is any book/video/tutorial that teaches anything different than the others????? They are all the same, some better, some worse, but all the same. All resources feel like ''draw the owl'' and they all seem to always be hiding something from you, which, guess what, is always that thing you are stuck on.

And, if by chance you finally manage to get your shit straight you come here and people are more interessed in shitting on you than helping.

>>2853491
Most art schools don't teach their students the same skills.

Art school sucks weiners

>>2843916
this

and getting very good at representational art requires a certain personality. Some people refuse to spend the time learning the technicalities. They know what the fundamentals are; they don't know how they fit together. They'll do the brute work, study the landscapes and figures because they think mileage is the only thing standing in their way. They'll meander their way through artschool like a piece of shit because they have no ego strength. They see people better than them and they give up. They half-ass assignments because they're too busy living their youth and vegetating to television shows. Heck, most of them have already given up, only studying art in college because they had to study something, and art was 'easy.'

Art is supposed to be for creative people. But that's wrong. Creativity gets you nowhere if you want to draw well objectively, which you need to do if you want to be a professional. You need to be willing to learn to be technical. If you can be creative and technical you're unstoppable, but most creatives are too fucking stupid to wise up and dedicate themselves. They don't give enough of a shit, or they aren't resourceful enough to solve the question of why they don't draw well.

Being strong is not an ability.
/thread

>>2848832
That's 100% bullshit in both regards.

>>2853452
>You only see the best of Chinese students, bud.

This. Do you think China is going to show you the kids who don't make it? Not in a society that is the longest running civilization in the world based on saving face.

>>2853491
>American art schools do all of those things too

An atelier maybe and programs like the Kubert School. But then ateliers attract people who are already pros too. Your average liberal arts college fine arts program is going to be a majority of kids who do the minimum and party all the time.