Why are western porn artists so shit at art? I fap to these

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I didn't want to start my own thread or ask in the beginner or ask thread since it's a bit embarrassing, but how long until an absolute beginner would be able to draw like this?

The communities are usually painful

all the best artists ive seen either gradually quit or switch to commissions only

of course i don't speak the language but it seems like there aren't several comments begging on each new post on pixiv

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>>2820477
They have shit visual libraries because of their shit taste, on average they think some horse-jaw blonde with muscles is the apex of beauty. That's why when it comes to stylized art I have no issue with admitting that Eastern taste is superior

Why the fuck are western porn artists so obsessed with big lips and anal

>>2820501
>The communities are usually painful
>all the best artists ive seen either gradually quit or switch to commissions only

I'm trying to learn so I can draw lewds but your post may have just convinced me to give up.

Why bother putting things on deviantart for teenagers to furtively fap to and ask if you do RP? It's all so bleak.

I suppose there's still drawthreads on 4chan which would appreciate the content.

>>2820477
Porn art has a greater stigma against it in the west. This has a number of consequences:

Drawing porn is "professionally unacceptable". If it comes to light that a pro artist is drawing porn, then their career in non-porn art is over.

There isn't very much money in western porn art either. For whatever reason, there isn't the same amount of market willing to pay for it as there is for real life porn. Without the money, it becomes impossible for artists to be able to produce "porn art" full time for their careers.

These factors kill any professional participation in porn art, which also lowers the average level of skill. Anyone who develops a professional level of skill has to stay away from porn art, since drawing porn art means they won't get non-porn jobs, and there isn't enough money in porn art to support themselves.

This means most of the western porn art is being created by relative amateurs.

But, Porn art is also socially unacceptable. So even amateurs can't participate in porn that easily.

Let's look at a few classes of amateurs: the budding professional, the high-skill hobbyist, and the fetishist.

For budding professionals: they have the same problem as professionals. At some point they want to enter the professional world, and so have to leave the porn world behind.

High Skill amateurs have a similar problem. As their skills grow, they want to share their works. And sharing porn works is not socially acceptable. So they begin doing non-porn works so they can show off their skills, participate/talk to other amateur communities etc. Once they reach a good level of skill, they've ended up abandoning the porn art altogether.

The fetishist has a greater motivation to draw porn, since they are fueled by sexual desires, not mainstream social desires. Their only social/community ties they have are with others with the same fetish, not the art community as a whole. This provides plenty of social motivation to continue drawing porn.
(continued)

>>2820786
But the problem with the fetishist is the level of skill. Fetish producers and consumers are only interested in their fetish, not in any level of artistic quality. A bad drawing that hits all the right kinks is better to them than a good drawing that doesn't have the fetish in it. So they tend to get really prolific at drawing the fetish (since that's what's incentivized), and not necessarily good at any other aspect of drawing.

This is the majority of western porn you see out there.

Now come to think of there are some "professional porn artists" out there.

But still, these people are lacking in great skill.

Lot of reasons for that too:

The live action porn takes up the majority of the market. These leaves a small market for western animated cartoons. There's a small market for any kind of non-porn adult aimed animation/cartoon, and the porn market is even smaller.

So there can only be a small amount of artists that can be supported from this market. And these artists are not normally that skilled.

Why are they not skilled?

If the artist had great skill, they would be able to achieve success in the non-porn world. The porn world tends to get the artists who couldn't make it in the mainstream non-porn world. If it were easier to transition between the two worlds , we could get more crossover artists, but as of now an artist is either a porn artist, or a "real artist" and so the porn world only gets the artists without the skills to make it as a real artist.

Additionally, the porn art market doesn't seem to value skills that much. The consumers are usually fetishists, who value their fetish instead of overall art quality. A better quality piece of art doesn't get more money. These porn artists want to make money, and they make more money by drawing for some niche fetish, then they'd make on increasing their drawing skills. Simple matter of return on investment. The incentives aren't there for them to get better.

(continued.)

>>2820797
And since the current porn-art market doesn't value skill, there's no incentive for skilled artists to start making porn art either. Some guy can get paid just as much if not more by doing crude drawings of furries in diapers than you would make drawing great nudes. So what's the point of you drawing porn, not making money from it, and ruining any chance you'd have at become a "real artist"? None at all.

It's a really unfortunate situation overall.

Can things get better?

Maybe. I'm not holding my breath though. Here's some things that would have to change:

- Get rid of the social stigma on porn, and drawn porn.

That's the biggest one, also the hardest, if not impossible. If this stigma wasn't there, I think a healthy market would develop on its own, which would encourage higher levels of skill. So really everything else here would be a subgoal that would arise if the main goal was satisfied.

- Allow artists to freely crossover between porn and non-porn art with no penalty.

Makes it be a less "all or nothing" choice, gets more talent into the pool. Increases competition on skills for porn artists.

- Increase the size of the market.

More people willing to pay more money means more artists can create more porn. More artists means higher competition. Should increase the overall skill level, and allow for more talented artists to make a living drawing porn. And if artists can crossover freely, this could be a lucrative "side business" for "real artists" as well, which would also increase the skill level.

- Increase the sophistication of the market.

In order for the skill level to get better, the market has to care about and reward higher art skills. Right now the market is mostly fetishists, and people who otherwise don't care about the level of artistic talent required to make the drawings.

If porn-art was less stigmatized, we can have a market with less hardcore fetishists in it. (continued)

>>2820811
This market would have more mainstream people in it, and people who value art skills over simply depicting whatever their favorite fetish is. Once the financial incentive is there for high art skills, the overall level of skill should increase.

Additionally, having a larger market, and less stigma will allow for more competition. This competition should also lead to an increase in art skills, even among fetish artists.

Really though, the key is to have enough people who are willing to pay for good art, and give the artists the ability to reach that market without alienating any other markets they're involved in. The current western porn art scene is almost entirely hardcore fetishists and amateurs. Fetishists pay for their fetish, not for art quality. And amateurs just don't have the time and financial incentives to produce high quality art.

Now of course if the porn-art market got more acceptable, the "fetish-scene" that we have today would still be around. It would just make up a lower percentage of the overall market.


But how can we make this desire into a reality?

I have no idea. Changing the social attitude of the entire western world is not easy. But, going on overall trends it seems that over the last few decades, porn is becoming more acceptable. Maybe we just need to wait it out, who knows what the attitudes will be in another 20,30 years? Maybe there needs to be some activism to raise awareness and interest? Who knows.

Regardless, you're not going to see any significant increase in skill in western porn-art until you can change the social/cultural/economic factors involved.

>>2820827

Can't proper artists just have another identity for lewds, though, and keep them separate?

>>2820855
To what end?

Time spent drawing porn is time spent not building your portfolio or doing jobs that earn you real money and build your business network.

bait - the thread

>>2820872
Well it got kinda derailed.

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Because majority of western porn artists are dudes that think with their dicks. The exception are dudes who got gud before doing porn, and female artists.

Pic related is a decent breakdown of how 90% of western porn art basically amounts to polished turds


Also these:
>>2820507
>>2820786
>>2820797
>>2820811
>>2820827

tl;dr cultural differences in aesthetics and attitudes

>>2820544
And freckles
And body hair
And whore makeup

>>2820855
there's always the risk someone will recognize your art style/techniques/whatever and connect the dots.

>>2820507
>I have no issue with admitting that Eastern taste is superior
No, you're just a weeaboo.

>>2820940
>female artists
Dont know what artists you're looking at, but ive seen a shit ton of lesbian deviantart and tumblr artists that suck just as much.

>>2821017
He didn't say female porn artists are good, he said they don't think with their dicks.

>>2820489
me on the right, left, center left and center right

There is actually a positive message here, if you just want to draw lewds, you don't even need to git gud, just gud enough.

Are Doxy and BBC Chan not westerners? (these are the only artists I know that draw this kind of bullshit)

>>2821984
also I guess Paul Richards wastes a lot of his skills and time drawing cartoon sluts

>>2821017
A lot of 'lesbian' porn artist on HF and DA are actually guys roleplaying as women.

Tumblrinas care only about winning at minority inclusion bingo when it comes to porn.

>>2820477

Because western porn artist in general (at that skill level) lack obvious fundamental knowledge and don't draw to get better, or maybe don't understand how to, but moreso draw to create fap material. There's plenty of skilled western porn artist out there, but the majority don't do it as a main deal thing, it's just unprofitable if you're not pandering to some group and have a patreon, and even then with a high enough skill level you'de have better prospects going elsewhere/working professionally. I don't know many artist than enjoy exclusively drawing porn, so it's never really an issue to keep porn as an aside.

>>2820786

I get the whole stigma idea, but I don't feel that doing pornographic art, unless you actively link it to your main information disbars you from actually getting a job. Even if you did I think it's becomes more an issue with how unprofessional you are about it.

>>2820507
At least in western there IS a jaw. You weebs have zero fucking taste. Every single chick has a guitar pick head, giganto eyes, an L nose if there even is one, and a line for the mouth or a side mouth.

>>2820477
Because baby boomers refuse to die.
It's pretty much it. Once oldfags die and cartoons stop being "for children only" and everything drawn has to be all ages, some pros will be able to share their porn without being immediately banned from the industry.

>>2820940
>ywn BTFO of someone as hard as this

>>2820786
A lot of good points in all these posts. The only thing I'd disagree with is the idea that being known to draw erotic art automatically bars you from getting non erotic work. Joe Phillips for instance is fairly well known for his porn but there's plenty published DC/Marvel books with his name on them and I happen to know he's working on another book with a major publisher at the moment. I draw erotica as well and thus far it hasn't at all impeded my budding career, in fact in some ways I'd say it's helped. But it's debatable.
I take pride in my craft and aim to create work that's not only erotic but well drawn, yet I have a feeling that no matter how much I hone my craft /ic/ would always look at it and say it's all libido driven or too derivative of one thing or another or find some fault with it. I want to prove a western artist can create well crafted porn but on the other I know trying to prove it to /ic/ is probably an unwinable battle. (cont)

>>2822833
I guess the only point I have to make is this: if anyone reading this thread is disappointed that there isn't higher quality porn being made by western artists, take some comfort in knowing someone is at least out there trying.

>>2820477
Crying faggot because his furry trash artists colored his dog porn blue instead of green

>>2822834
The point is why once they get good they stop drawing porn.

>>2826051
My point was no they don't. The artist I mentioned Joe Phillips still very much draws porn and erotica and I know of other professionals who do as well. The better I get the more I want to draw porn. It isn't the only thing I want to draw, but like the non porn art I draw I find it exciting to see how much more I can do with the skills I've learned.
My whole point was there'll be at least one person aiming not to drop porn once I "get good" but rather to make better porn.

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>>2820477
As a bondagefag, I can tell you that the clique on deviantart can get kind of circle-jerky. If you try to offer critique, most of them will give you the typical responses: "it's not suppose to be realistic", "muh style", "I just want to draw anime", "don't like it? don't look at it" and all that crap. Basically, they think they don't need the fundamentals.

Pic related.

>>2820988
u mean shad

>>2820489
4 years

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>>2820477
kek bbc chan is lightyears ahead of stuff like this

also the best furry artists are western

>>2826857
How did she cum on her face and the floor? Makes no sense.

>>2826861
if the tranny cummed on his own face and then his dick fell down and kept leaking cum

>>2826861

You only shoot one load of cum, anon? Weak.

>>2826861
Women can come multiple times friendo.

>>2826870
>he (shemale) (male)

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I tried to make money drawing porn and the more I painted the more I hated all other artists on my kink
I made digital paintings with backgrounds and they were all stuck on cell shading over white backgrounds, I released none of them were there for the art, they had no brains and tought with their dicks
Turns out my art was too refinated and nobody liked it so I stopped with it. later on I quited that fetish

The point is what has been said before on this thread, western porn artists are never into it for the art and people who is into the art can't do porn for a reason or another.

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>>2826227
After I'm done college, I'm following in your footsteps, anon. I was so worried about this subject, and you gave me hope. Thank you.

>>2826886

Totally true

One of my friends and I got into that niche in drawing porn and although she started like 4 months earlier , she had more viewers and her art is basically described as : chicken scratch > never studied anatomy > doesn't know what proportions are > very lazy altogether > her lineart is the worst lineart i've seen in my life.

She made a good 400$ a month from it
I draw 100 times better and made only ( and with struggle ) 200$

>>2827121
Supply and Demand.
Either go figure out what people want and what satisfies them or kys.

>>2827121
The point isn't that good art isn't apreciated but that porn artists are fucking shallow

>>2820477
Neh, I've spent years of my life on sadpanda comparing western art with eastern. And you can find a lot of great and skilled western artists. The problem is that they all make the same shit, nice coloured pinups and maybe two panels of vanilla porn. Japanese stuff has such an enormous variety of content and fetishes, they also don't focus so much on making nicely done still shots but on porn comics where the action is the real focus

>>2820786
>>2820797
>>2820811
>>2820827

The western porn-art market is the number 1 problem. It's toxic and only cares about fetishes, not art quality. The societal stigma is hardly the issue considering it's easy to indulge in taboo and hide it via the internet.

The mediocrity of the western drawn smut is a direct reflection of it's shitty market, made up of shitty customers.

Also this >>2820786
While browsing sadpands I was also impressed at the amount of porn manga they release. Tons of monthly magazines featuring various stories from various artists are sold alongside "normal magaines". A friend of mine who went to Japan said that it wasn't uncommon to see people reading said magazines on the metro while people ignored them.

>>2828121
You can find pirn mags on the street in any non-retard country, and you'd ignore autists reading it on the bus just like you ignore mentally challenged people making loud noises, that doesn't make it socially acceptable, it just means people have the sense not to make a scene

>>2820940
I'm fucking stupid; is the redline on the right showing a way to establish proper measurement/foreshortening of the legs?

>>2828141
Yes. But, it's clearly a nitpick redline since it doesn't make or break the original. Most of the written text can be outright ignored.

>>2822267
No, they only care when it comes to children's cartoons, because that's the only shit they can stomach.
Freaks.

>>2820827
Who cares? porn is as much art as a cereal box design.

Theyre never really taught/encouraged to do art in schools since all of the budget goes to sports or something along those lines

>>2820477
I think it boils down to the fact that if you're genuinely good at art you wouldn't have to draw fetish shit

USUALLY

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>>2820827
Rieq and zone tan get jobs dispite mostly doing porn. Plus I think once you reach a respectable skill level people will respect what ever you draw.

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>>2828684
Rieq treats porn the way it's suppose to be treated, a side gig. Most of his best work is his more sfw pin-up stuff. He's also actually improved a lot over the years because he experiments. His work is actually enjoyable now. And Zone tan is an animator so that already puts him above a lot of other western porn artists since most of them are just shitty/mediocre illustrators.
>Plus I think once you reach a respectable skill level people will respect what ever you draw.
The issue is most western porn artists don't draw to actually get better. They draw just to get by and make money off degenerates. Most of them are degenerate dick brains themselves so once they get to a certain level, they stop caring about getting better and just stagnant since they have their group of enablers.

>>2820940
This pic is actually really useful, I'll have to remember the X distance thing
Also that writing reminds me of something, is this from someone that used to post here?

>>2827121
>>2826886
I have no experience in that field but maybe it was due to a lack of advertising and not being known enough? I don't think people willingly choose shit art over good art if they have an alternative

>>2820477
did you fap?
twice?
goal archieved.

>>2828953
>I don't think people willingly choose shit art over good art if they have an alternative
When you have degenerate fetishes, you normally never have alternatives. The porn market is just shit, honestly.

>>2820760
why do you even want to draw if your goal is a shitty one.
i draw lewds only because it's fun for me.

>>2828958
Yes, I worded my post badly
What I meant is, if those two anons' art was indeed better than their competitors and they had the same audience, but the anons had less income maybe the problem was a matter of not being well known enough, as opposed to the competitors wich made shit art but were well known

>>2821939
ye

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>>2828962
>they had the same audience
That's not necessarily true. Fetish is the forefront of the porn market. It's the driving force. And pornfags are really sensitive about their fetishes. So if you show clear disinterest or disgust in certain fetishes, people WILL get offended, even though the fetish is clearly degenerate as fuck. The "mainstream" fetishes of the porn market is degenerate as hell. Loli, Shota, Futa, Furry. It's all degenerate as fuck. If you have normal vanilla taste, you aren't going to fit in.

>>2828962
Disregard everything I said here >>2828975
actually. I read your post completely wrong.

>>2828962
I believe that the most important variable is the number of updates.

Artists like Sakimi and Shad got popular because they updated 3-4 times a week, for years.
Even if there are other people with more skill, if they only update once a month they won't get much attention from the average person.

I just keep seeing more evidence of this with people like born-to-die, his art is subpar but he updates almost DAILY and got a successful patreon because of it.

>>2829047
This is actually a very valid point.

My wife and I are fetish artists. Our "thing" is pregnancy, which is a common fetish, but still outside the realm of normal, at least in the west. As soon as you get yourself out of the furry deviantaffinity autismfest at the bottom, you find that good artists are more popular than bad ones. Since pregnancy is part of normal life, you will often find the most celebrated preg art is drawn by people who don't have the fetish, and just happened to be godtier artists who randomly felt like drawing the subject that day. Their comments and descriptions lead me to believe a lot of them don't even realize it's a kink, yet through sheer competence they unwittingly dominated a whole legion of dedicated fetish artists.

Outside of overly wierd and specific kinks, hyper inflated dragons in diapers for example, you find that nonfetishized good work is far more popular than intentionally sexual shit, even within the community of the fetish.

Teenage masturbators and autistic people, the main producers of western fetish art, don't realize that sensuality is an artistic skill. Western porn sucks hard not just because of basic anatomical and artistic failures, but more so because so much of it is just so brainlessly overt. Men, when you are trying to seduce a woman, do you just grab her boobs and start squeezing them? If she actually went for it, would you trust not getting VD from a woman so desperate?

Good porn needs subtlety, teasing, depth of expression and design. Don't put a speech bubble over a woman that says "I'm cumming", Do show fingers clenching the air in a weird way and the musculature near the perenium stiff and cock-eyed in orgasm.

Our goal has never been money. We make enough from mindless billpay day jobs that we don't need to rely on the stupid demands and requirements of buisiness to dictate our creative liberty. Given the competition, I think anyone dedicated is capable of being one of the best preg artists out there. We're anyone, so we are going to try.

>>2829644
What does your wife's son think of your art?