Somalian philosophy

>>2665103
Paint Tool Sai is the best. It's very leight weight and has everything you need.

Photoshop.

/thread

>>2665123
This.

>>2665123
Photoshop is a clunky, archaic piece of shit whose only advantage over other software is editing/postprod, all while being worse in some illustration-centric areas.

>hurr durr industry standard
Yes, because for a long time it had no real alternative and was expensive as shit, so companies were unwilling to switch to other software when it became available, thus perpetuating the cycle because people were used to the workflow, just like with Macs and video editing.

>>2665139
>so companies were unwilling to switch to other software when it became available

Switch to what other software? Nothing else can compare.

>>2665140
>Nothing else can compare.
In what, photo editing?
Unless the "industry" you're referring to is CA photobashing, there are 100% better alternatives for illustration.

CSP already took over the Japanese market and a good part of Asia, and it can do illustration and digital painting as well, if not better than PS, and Painter is straight up better for painting.
Hell, I'd take Krita over PS with this last update.

>>2665103
>I got used to using individual programs to their absolute strengths, and now every program looks like shit on its own.

You're full of shit. What is your workflow like? Name some "fatal flaws" in any popular painting program. Assuming you're talking about painting, every popular program has all the features you need. Don't blame the software; the bottleneck is you. To answer your question, Clip Studio Paint costs $15 when it goes on sale. It's great all around and I can't think of any "fatal flaws" at all.

>>2665139
>Photoshop is a clunky, archaic piece of shit whose only advantage over other software is editing/postprod
Photoshop is solid software with great documentation and resources for literally anything you'd want to use it for. I don't agree with Adobe's subscription business model, but the faults you've listed are nonsense. It's a great program.

>>2665147
im pretty sure you cant paint at all

post your work and ill start taking you more seriously

>>2665151
>Photoshop is solid software with great documentation and resources
Doesn't contradict what I said.

>the faults you've listed are nonsense
I used Photoshop since the nineties, back when Photopaint was its main competitor, and the interface barely changed.
It's clunky, and it's archaic.

>I don't agree with Adobe's subscription business model
That was the best thing they've done.

>>2665147
>Manga Studio
>Painter

I'm not a fan of the blending in either MS or Painter. I also hate the interface and keybindings in both, which PS is second to none in. I've tried using other programs, but I always come back to PS CS6. It's perfect.

>>2665157
>using an argument that can as easily be used against you

>>2665177
>I'm not a fan of the blending in either MS or Painter
What do you mean? They blend the same when in same color mode.
You know you can just use generic digital brushes without simulated paint, etc, right?

So I've heard the following to look into:

PS
MS
Painter
Krita
CSP

What else is worth trying? I'm coming from traditional art, so I don't have experience in any.

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>>2665159
>Doesn't contradict what I said.
>only advantage over other software is editing/postprod
Documentation and support is a pretty big advantage. There are hundreds of resources for learning Photoshop and you can find an answer for almost any question you could have instantly. The same can't be said of something like CSP.

>It's clunky, and it's archaic.
Compared to what? Sketchbook Pro is pretty nifty, but most programs I can think of use more or less the same interface. You can hide unused GUI elements and move things around. I'm using Linux at the moment, so here's my GIMP setup. It's almost the same as my CSP setup (and SAI, Photoshop, etc.)

>>2665187
Sketchbook Pro has an intuitive interface, but the way it handles anti-aliasing is weird. I bought it, but I've heard the free trial doesn't let you change the canvas size to mitigate that problem.

>>2665187
Also, Manga Studio = Clip Studio Paint rebranded by Smith Micro before Celsys had an official english version. Now both companies call it CSP. I don't know if there's any reason not to buy it from Celsys. There wasn't when I bought it, at least.

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>>2665190
When I say interface, I'm not just talking about the gui, I mean the way you use the program.

>Compared to what?
Almost everything. I used to think PS was the shit (it was), but over a decade of watching it do absolutely nothing for illustration or usability put a damper on that.

If you need to buy several plugins to make it not be a pain to use, evidence points there is something wrong with it. It's been like that for years and several iterations of the program, and Adobe doesn't give a single shit.

>documentation
Maybe I lost sight of what it means to first come in contact with this stuff, but I don't see it as that big a deal for art. The ease of availability of resources in the sense of plugins, brushes, etc. are a huge thing, though.

It is not a bad program, but it honestly has no business being the go-to art program besides what I mentioned a couple of posts ago, and it is certainly not the be-all-end-all of art software that the guy who brought it up implied it was, and that sort of thing causes a knee jerk reaction with me sometimes.


>Sketchbook pro
If they gave it a proper pressure curve instead of the behind-the-scenes mystical fuckery it has now, it'd be pretty great.
I really like the effort Autodesk is putting in on getting it out there.

You pass through this world once, do you want to spend this life bending to rules that are not productive?

>>2665204
Okay what would you recommend for digital art then? Is Krita good or is there something better?

>>2665204
>When I say interface, I'm not just talking about the gui, I mean the way you use the program.
The last time I used Photoshop was over a year ago, but I don't remember having to use it much differently than anything else. Menus and commands were different, but that'd be true trying any new program.

>If you need to buy several plugins to make it not be a pain to use, evidence points there is something wrong with it. It's been like that for years and several iterations of the program, and Adobe doesn't give a single shit.
Totally agree. It'd be piss easy for them to add a line stabilizer (and mirroring, a better color picker, etc.). They're not deal breakers, though.

>Maybe I lost sight of what it means to first come in contact with this stuff, but I don't see it as that big a deal for art.
I'm guessing learning the software is a steep learning curve for a lot of people starting off in digital art. There's a pretty small feature set required for a program to be suitable for painting, but doing something like ctrl+paint's tutorials in CSP could be pretty frustrating for a newbie.

>and that sort of thing causes a knee jerk reaction with me sometimes.
I've got an agnostic stance about the whole thing, and the same thing happens with me when someone calls a tool shit. I'd prefer several other programs over Photoshop, but if someone's trying to learn for the first time I don't think it's helpful to tell them some of the best learning resources are for a shitty tool.

>>2665218
Not him, but to me the whole argument is like arguing about Formula One race cars. They all have way more power than a newbie can use, and the skills from one brand transfer to another. A lot of good resources teach Photoshop and it's totally fine. I think Clip Studio Paint is better, but it doesn't cost anything to try Photoshop for a month (or most programs for that matter) and almost everything you'll use to paint can be done in almost every program.

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>>2665187
MyPaint has a really nice brush engine
way better than krita

If Photoshop had the lines SAI has it would be perfect.

>>2665103
>Did you ever find that perfect(ish) art software, /ic/?

Youre phrasing it like there was some sort of wide range of softwares you can use. Theres not. Theres barely any professional illustrator using anything but Photoshop.

>inb4 some retard replies "oh my favorite furry animu artist uses SAI and he's a professional illustrator? right? right?"

No you fucktard, I'm talking about actual illustrators ie. MTG. Have you ever heard about any Magic artist using SAI?

>>2665385
The only alternative I can think of is Manga Studio, which is basically Photoshop on steroids in certain respects with really good lineart engine, but it's missing bunch of core features like liquify, warping is pretty retarded too.

So yeah, Photoshop.

>>2665103
who is this testicular temptress

>>2665103
Paint tool sai.
Easy to use and has everything I need. Tried getting into photoshop but couldn't get used to it.

I believe Photoshop is the industry standard. So if you want to work at some sort of studio learning photoshop would be a good idea.

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>>2665103
>somolian philosophy

>mexican intellectual

>>2665103
Photoshop, if you ever want to make more than 2d homosex and furries. Regarding flaws, part of making it is being able to deal with shit and stop complaining about bullshit.

>>2665385
>No you fucktard, I'm talking about actual illustrators ie. MTG.
Yes, just like I heard of them painting the card art traditionally.

Protip: the "industry standard" shit only applies when working inhouse, every alternative software can work with .psd files

>>2665151
>but the faults you've listed are nonsense
Can photoshop mirror the canvas view without actually changing the working image yet?

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/928507

I use photoshop elements 5.
Fancy, cutting edge software is not a replacement for skill.

CSP for lineart, PS for painting. Simple as that.

>>2665731
This post was mine too:
>>2665249
>The last time I used Photoshop was over a year ago.
>Totally agree. It'd be piss easy for them to add a line stabilizer (and mirroring, a better color picker, etc.).
>They're not deal breakers, though.
Whether I flip the canvas and flip it back or change my view and change it back is effectively the same to me. It's a very minor thing.

>>2665263
New photoshop trial is only 7 days.

>want to try SAI
>windows-only, unless you do some shit but then pen sensitivity doesn't work

I wanna try this program so bad but I'm using OS X (inb4 memes, it was a gift). Besides PS (I don't wanna subscription) is CSP my best bet? I use Krita on my Linux machine at home and tried it on OS X, it's ass.

>>2665933
>what is bootcamp

>>2665938
No shit, I don't have a Windows image with me rn though.
I don't want to pirate jank shit when I have the real thing at home.

>>2665933
Does pen sensitivity not work through a VM? You probably have to install something like the guest VM stuff VirtualBox has.

>>2665945
Oh, didn't see this before writing >>2665946

>I don't want to pirate jank shit when I have the real thing at home.

Pirate a from a private tracker and it's 100% fine.

>>2665948
I'm not worried about viruses per se, just don't want some "This version of Windows is not genuine" shit bugging me.

>>2665887
Good to know.

>>2665933
CSP can do anything SAI can do. SAI is lightweight and has a minimal interface, but those are the only things where CSP doesn't outclass it. CSP has many, many more features, including things you'll actually use all the time (the way CSP handles tool presets compared to SAI, for example). CSP is cheaper too. I can understand wanting to try SAI, but setting up a whole other OS to do so seems like a waste of time.

>CSP
>SAI
Mischief is legitimately the best program to ink in.

>>2665977
Care to give any reasons why?

>>2665987
>raster/vector hybrid
>one of the most natural pressure curves straight out of the box, no possibility for uneven line weight like in spacing-based tools (see above)
>no line jitter
It's the most intuitive way to sketch and ink for me.

>>2665414
Michelle Jenneke I think, she's well known for a gif of her from the 2012 olympics. She does this hip swaying thing and someone caught it on film and it went viral.

>>2665955
Then get a genuine copy of windows. Shit anon, it's not rocket science.

>>2665860
It is not a minor thing, if anything it is a massive oversight on Adobe's part. A basic mirror VIEW (ie no side effect on the actual image) is a trivial piece of functionality that even pieces of shit like Krita can do. I should not have to recalculate the entire image to display a mirored view of the image. It lends crediblity to the argument that Photoshop is lagging behind in illustrator friendly functionality.

>>2665475
>Regarding flaws, part of making it is being able to deal with shit and stop complaining about bullshit
but then why not get something that's 1000 million times cheaper

>>2665147

What is CSP?

>>2666234
Clip Studio Paint aka Manga Studio

>>2666235
test

>>2666008
>raster/vector hybrid
Also true of SAI/CSP.
>natural pressure curves straight out of the box
No idea what you mean by that. If the default x=y curve doesn't do it for you why can't you spend a few seconds changing it?
>no possibility for uneven line weight like in spacing-based tools (see above)
I don't even know what this means. SAI/CSP both have pressure input smoothing.
>no line jitter
Also true of SAI/CSP.

>>2666109
>it is a massive oversight on Adobe's part.
I agree, but so what?
>I should not have to recalculate the entire image
You don't, your computer does. Worst case scenario that takes a fraction of a second instead of being instantaneous. That's the only difference. You're nitpicking.
>Photoshop is lagging behind in illustrator friendly functionality.
Agreed, but again, so what? It does everything you'd need to paint and has the most/best resources to learn from. I don't even like or use Photoshop, but it's good software.

>>2666236
I was getting a connection error too.

>>2666238
>Also true of SAI/CSP.
No, it isn't. Those are programs that can use either vector or raster layers. Mischief's lines themselves are both raster and vector at once.
>rest of post
You're completely ignorant, I give up.

>>2665123
Photoshop is great, people just need an adjustment period. It took me a while before I was faster in Photoshop than on paper.

And yes, industry standard. Clients will ask for your PSD files.

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>>2666238
>aha so what????
LOL, why settle for less? I agree Photoshop is good software, but it could be better, yet it isn't. In fact Photoshop could be the best and most comprehensive illustration software there is, but it isn't. Many illustrators rely on Photoshop to do work, and for good reason too, but some people don't use Photoshop as much because it isn't as good as it could be. And to that, all you have to say is "so what"?

If you find a speck of shit on your meal at an upscale retaurant, you don't say "so what" and brush it off. Why should you settle for less when it is no skin of the chef's nose to do better than get shit on your food? They're a professional. They should feel apalled at the thought of their diners choosing to submit to their shit sprinkled food, and you should feel compelled to tell them that they can do better, because THEY CAN.

People like you are enable mediocrity and prevent societies, peoples, and things in general from becoming truly great. Die, or get woked.

>>2666238
It impacts your workflow in a negative way.

I should not fill up my history if I want to flip back and forth to make a decision and I should not, after flipping, be forced back in to the previous orientation before undoing whatever I want, and then have to flip the image again to actually work in the orientation I want.

It's a completely retarded decision by adobe, and it's not an isolated case.
You know why they didn't fix it?
Because that's a purely illustration-related problem, and they never gave a shit about illustration.

>>2666295
>Because that's a purely illustration-related problem
Wrong, even photographers can benefit from being able to [non-destructively] mirror their image and touch it up on the fly. That said I'm no photographer however I am absolutely certain this is the case regardless.

But yeah adobe's devs are retarded in this regard by insisting that Photoshop only be able to destructively mirror the canvas.

>>2666279
>Mischief's lines themselves are both raster and vector at once.
Just saying "raster/vector hybrid" hardly expresses that. It sounds like a neat feature, but
>You're completely ignorant, I give up.
I spent a few minutes looking through their shitty website before I even replied to you. It has about the same quality and amount of information as your posts. I've never heard of your indescribably great software anywhere else, and I'm happy to continue being ignorant.

>>2666285
>People like you are enable mediocrity and prevent societies, peoples, and things in general from becoming truly great. Die, or get woked.
I don't even like or use Photoshop, but it's a good program with abundant resources for beginners to learn. All the problems you've mentioned are autistic nitpicking secondary to that simple fact. It's graphics software. Calm down.

>>2666295
>It impacts your workflow in a negative way.
No, it doesn't. The only real consequence is wasted RAM. RAM is cheap enough for any pro or hobbyist to have as much as they could ever use. It's a tiny problem mitigated by the fact that almost any other problem you could have has been solved and answered.

>>2666310
>I don't even like or use Photoshop
>let me tell you about how your workflow in photoshop is influenced by this feature of photoshop
Methinks you might be a bit of a dumbo.

>>2666315
You're an idiot. I started using Photoshop in 2004 and the last time I used it was 2015.

>>2666310
>autistic nitpicking
I'm happy to pick Photoshop's nits when other software don't have the kinds of nits that Photoshop has.

None of your points have much tangible weight in favour of Photoshop nor refute claims made about Photoshop's shortcomings.

Learning resources for raster editing software are a dime a dozen, and most of the programs work more or less the same fundamentally.

Is claiming that Photoshop is good software that is approachable for new users and usable for existing users due to extensive documentation really all you have to say about it? Because I do agree, no shit Photoshop is a good program.

>>2666330
>None of your points have much tangible weight in favour of Photoshop nor refute claims made about Photoshop's shortcomings.
A big community and good resources outweigh the program's problems. That's all. I think telling someone to download Photoshop and start working through Ctrl+Paint is great advice. A beginner asking "How/What should I start learning" is a different question than "What's the best tool?". Problems just learning to be proficient are going to be much bigger than hassles of using sub-optimal software when you already know what you're doing.

>>2666356
>A beginner asking "How/What should I start learning" is a different question than "What's the best tool?"
Good, now guess what this thread is about.

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I just wish Adobe would borrow couple of things from Manga Studio, like the ease of editing the brush presets, the fact that I cant drag and drop this shit is insane in 2016. The entire brush manager in Photoshop needs a makeover, its a relict from 1998 that didnt get touched at all.
Same thing for hotkeys, in Manga Studio I can bind anything to anything, Photoshop keeps limiting you with "oh you cant use CTRL modifier for this hotkey, just because" and you need to use external software to make this happen.

Same thing for built-in stabilizer, Manga Studio has a pretty gut one, Photoshop doesnt have one at all and you need external software for this shit again.

>mischief

No rebindable hotkeys last time I checked, unusable for me.

>>2666369
>Good, now guess what this thread is about.

I answered the OP's question in my first post (>>2665139) and called bullshit on "every program has a fatal flaw" and similar posts. If the only thing you have left to argue is my reading comprehension, fuck off.

>>2666379
Mean to link >>2665151 as me.

>>2666379
>If the only thing you have left to argue is my reading comprehension, fuck off.
I'm not the guy you were arguing with, it was just a roundabout way of calling you a retard. Now fuck off.

>>2666385
>guess what this thread is about.
>a roundabout way of calling you a retard.
OK.

>>2666390
It's just one of those things you have to not be a retard to understand.