Serious question, why is anime stylization so looked down upon

lets see it, bic boi

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>>2638235

its shit

>inb4 post your work

Pic related, my work.

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The fact that every thread like this has a berserk image as the op doesn't help.

get some taste you fucking pleb

It's only discouraged because you can see the artist's skill level whether they stylize it one way or another so you can see when a very bad artist is doing it, he is told to practice the fundamentals. Animu drawing is fun, but you should always know the fundamentals before pursuing any stylization.

>>2638235
people just love to squabble, any pretext is good. People reading the same comics identify themselves as DC or Marvel and fight incessantly about it. People just love to have a reason to argue with someone else, it helps them create an identity for themselves and to socialize.

imo

>>2638235
When you start out on your journey to git gud, you usually enter a certain phase after you just started studying seriously, watched your first Vilppu and Hampton videos and began to memorize latin muscle names to sound smart. That's the phase where you still can't draw anything worth shit yourself, but you do know a few things in theory, so you start to search for art you can look down on to feel better about yourself. Stylization and anime art in particular is a great target for people stuck in that phase, because it's filled with shit tier Deviantartists.

It's quite normal and almost any artist goes through this or something very similar. Unfortunately, some of these beginners never get good enough to leave that phase behind and they are the ones who then double down and become obsessed with hating anime, even when drawn by incredibly skilled draftsmen, for the most ridiculous, subjective reasons.

>>2638246
Shamo was great until he went up the mountains or whatever the fuck.

>>2638287
>Stylization and anime art in particular is a great target for people stuck in that phase, because it's filled with shit tier Deviantartists.
>forest, trees, etc.

>>2638287
This desu. There's no bad style, just bad art.

>>2638287
how does one exit this stage.

Why do art schools ban anime but allow disney if stylization before fundamentals is the problem?

>>2638287
To be quite honest, this

>>2638585
Does this really happen

>>2638585
Have never seen this happen

Overflow from normie websites such as Twitter and Facebook because they heard 4chin is le edgy place where they can shitpost to their heart's content

just carry on and keep posting animu

>>2638287
/thread

>>2638466
You do or you don't.

>>2638585
They teach stylization alongside the fundamentals and schools like CalArts have direct relations to Disney's talent development programs. That said, I've never heard of schools "banning" anime. There is virtually no difference between some anime styles and western stylization other than a few minor very specific stylistic choices unique to the medium.

If some art schools actually do have an anime ban, then I'm pretty certain it's only in place to weed out teenagers whose portfolios are full of terrible Inu Yasha and Naruto fanart.

>>2638287
this

>>2638596
>>2638599
I've never heard of a school "banning" anime, but the teachers at my school heavily discouraged it whereas the students who were well on their way to becoming Glen Keane clones never seemed to get any backlash.

Most people who draw animu are really shitty at it, but even the few students who were actually pretty good were told to "stop drawing anime."

>>2638596
>>2638599
I don't know about "banning" but there is a clear bias against anime in some art schools/colleges. If it's not western comic/cartoon inspired stylistically, they tend to have a bias against it. Not all professors are like that, but a good portion are. That's why most artists who are heavily anime inspired, stylistically, are self-taught and never went to school for it.

>>2638628
The art teachers that ban anime are the same kind of people that >>2638287 was talking about.
Sure they graduated but they didn't make it into a real art career for a reason. Every teacher of mine who looked down upon anime was shit tier at drawing.
I've ran into ONE teacher who was accepting of all art styles and his work was incredible.

>>2638235
Because /ic/ is full of butthurts who will never make it and think they know what art truly is.

>>2638287
Great explanation
Tbh even though I like anime and the good artists who do it I sometimes can't help but value it a little less, hoping to get out of this mindset

Most of it is unoriginal and looks like shit

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>>2638235
What most people usually mean by "anime stylization" and in which berserk absolutely is not associated with is the generic big eyes, small/inexistant triangular nose and small mouth. It's obviously used by most of the manga "artists" that are not very committed to their craft and is basically a cop out, or the ones that try to make everything "cuter" or "moe". believe it or not but with the exception of weeboes and otakus when everything is "cutesy" it gets boring very fast, unpleasant even for some artists, hell even people. Some other people also believe that ANY stylisation that differs from general realistic human proportions is shit, but that's just like, their opinion man.

now there are plenty of other manga styles which styles that are absolutely not and in my opinion can not be considered as shit like vagabond, shamo, berserk, OPM, SKR, etc. One of the best side of mangas in my opinion is that it's a fuck load more dynamic than most and even some of the best comics just because of their realistic aspect. and i'm not talking about depiction of postures, i'm talking about the effects of movement which are used a lot more in mangas. But then again, the fact that mangas are black and white helps in those efforts as lines fit in a lot better than with colored comics.

>>2638628
>>2638636

I figured if you have a bias against anime you'd also have a bias against western cartooning especially if they are obvious clones. I know most weebs are deviant art OC tier but why put all of them in the same category? Just seems weird to stifle someone's work completely if it's actually decent. Then when someone from the west does try imitate it (in media not on the internet) it's usually really cheesey. It's not going anywhere so why not just roll with it? I'm asking as an outsider cause I never stepped foot in art school.

>>2638717
>I figured if you have a bias against anime you'd also have a bias against western cartooning especially if they are obvious clones.

That is almost never the case in my experience. It's pretty much as >>2638638 described. At the end of the day there are a lot of art teachers in these colleges that have no real business teaching in the first place.

>>2638245
is this a meme?

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>>2638725
>At the end of the day there are a lot of art teachers in these colleges that have no real business teaching in the first place


That is sad, anon. Feel bad for all those weebs whose dreams were crushed.

>>2638747
It's the reason why art colleges are generally worthless when it comes to actually learning how to draw. They are only worthwhile to get laid and make connections that can become valuable later, but outside of that you're a lot better off being self-taught mostly.

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>>2638665
>Manga is only good if its made for manly men like me and not that cutesy moe shit

>>2638771
Moe is basically the cheap fast food of manga stylizations.

No, you morons. It is discouraged because unlike disney style animation, the average manga/anime styliziation completely ignores fundamentals and the use of 3d forms.

While there clearly are extremely good animators and extremely well made anime, most of it is trash made made by slaves on 4 hours of sleep.

The reason most people who draw anime are complete shit, as that guy above mentioned, is precisely the fact that most manga are symbol drawings combined with the weeb attitude of not wanting to study "western" drawing. And when they get their symbols to kinda look like the sumbols in their favourite manga/anime, they start believing they are improving.

>b-b-but look, this manga I like isn't symbol drawing!
Doesn't change the fact the vast, vast majority is.

It's not an issue of drawing animu when you have the fundamentals down, it's an issue of it not being conducive to learning fundamentals, which is why everyone and their aunt tells you not do it.

>>2638783
>the average manga/anime styliziation completely ignores fundamentals and the use of 3d form
You say that as if the average western cartoon doesn't do this either. You're comparing the western's best with eastern's worst in terms of industry standards. So you're automatically showing your innate bias. Understanding fundamentals and 3D form isn't exclusive to western styles. You basically made a post that says a whole lot of nothing.

>>2638790
You're being a weeb anon. Stop that.

I'm mentioning dianey because the thread specifically talked about disney stylization vs anime in art schools. I never made a statement about western animation in general.

People who only draw in a steven universe style or whatever instead of studying fundamentals aren't any better, nor are they recieved any better on /ic/.

>>2638839
>I'm mentioning dianey because the thread specifically talked about disney stylization vs anime in art schools.
And if you were intellectually honest you would have known that was an inept comparison in the first place and wouldn't have used it as the basis for your entire post. The main issue was the general western bias in schools and that's not exclusive to Disney. It also applies to shit like Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Phineas and Ferb, etc. It's real and pretty obvious.

>>2638860
Nigga, take your tinfoil hat off. The thread only mentioned disney, and I adressed disney.
If you think that is the basis of the argument, and not just side comment, you're fucking retarded.

Also, I don't know what fucking art school you went to that tolerated adventure time stylization. Is this an actual thing in the US?

>>2638869
DAMAGE CONTROL

>>2638870
Anime is not conducive to learning to draw. That's a fact, and your claim that art schools let you be a retard as long as you do it the american way doesn't change that.

>>2638860
The basis of the post was
>the average manga/anime styliziation completely ignores fundamentals and the use of 3d forms

Disney has nothing to do with it.

>>2638628
>the teachers at my school heavily discouraged it whereas the students who were well on their way to becoming Glen Keane clones never seemed to get any backlash.
Not sure if serious. If the animu students were "well on their way" to becoming Itano clones or whoever the Japanese equivalent of Keane is, they probably wouldn't get any shit either.

i appreciate it, but i find it's rarely done well. That's my issue with the whole "anime style". It's very hit and miss.

I think it was hayao miasaki who introduced me to this line of thinking, but a good "style" is distinct, conveys emotion/tone well, and isn't mindlessly derived from other people's creation. He called out a lot of modern anime companies for drawing from anime instead of life and got a lot of shit for it too. Two years ago I decided to learn my fundies instead of drawing anime screencaps all the time. That was the best decision I've ever made for my art. I have more ideas, I'm happier with my work, and I now have somewhat of a style. I will never have respect for someone who gets good at drawing a scene from an animation they like because there is so much more involved in art. Manga/Anime isn't bad, and it isn't impossible to learn how to draw your favorite animus without fundies... but what's the point? To join an industry that thrives on cynicism, meta, and plagiarism? and don't tell me anyone who has neither the passion nor the drive to learn their fucking fundamentals then return to the scene with a fresh pair of eyes is going to do anything but contribute to the circle jerk. some modicum of originality and ingenuity is required to make anything worth a salt. Or even to make something I can call art.

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Anime is hard to draw correctly and normies will never get this because they think all anime art is is sketchings of Naruto and Vegeta when you were 10

you need perfect understanding of perspective because there is little visible anatomy(and even when there is it is very deformed proportiojally), and the detail is so low that a single line or tone can fuck up your entire picture.

Shit like this is almost always why even though they are good artists, people often cant draw anime. You cant just add autistic amounts of detail and rendering and hope it looks good.

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>>2638235
is there a alternative to the vagabond/berserk style when it comes to making a realistic comic? I have a goal of becoming a web comic creator that makes mainstream like comic in the semblance of alan moore or neil gaiman but I much prefer the eastern style of drawing people. Am i just a weeb or is the Japanese style superior?

>>2639262
>Am i just a weeb or is the Japanese style superior?
Those are two different questions.

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>>2638665
Berserk is plenty moe.

>>2638942
sorta funny considering miyazaki has hella mad sameface syndrome

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>>2639275
>Like the mermaid and moth girl arc, think that the relationship with their friends made it worth
>People only focus on the loli

>>2639294
hey now, Schierke is pretty cute.

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>>2638942
I'm pretty certain most japanese animators who are guilty of this have far better fundamentals than both Miyazaki and especially you do. Miyazaki is a great story teller and storyboard artist, but his knowledge of the fundamentals is as basic as it gets.

Meanwhile, there are lots of animators who simply have to learn from their superiors, because what they need to draw can't be observed in real life to the same extent. You can draw static, naked old ladies from life all you want, but if you're tasked to animated a crazy dynamic action scene with very distorted perspective, you need to have drawn something like that before to know how to make it work. Which means studying fellow animators who are known for dynamic action scenes and distorted perspective.

>>2639380
>Miyazaki is a great story teller
The guy does not know how to finish his own stories, he creates amazing first and second acts but everything starts to fall apart in the third.

Every single movie he wrote is the same shit, as he gets old, the problem becomes more and more evident.
His earlier movies didn't suffer so much but anything post-90's is a mess.

-japanese animators who are guilty of this have better fundamentals.
-japanese animators who never learn their fundies have better fundies
-what?

Is that a joke or an insult anon?

I'm not really taking about the animators of your favorite shows, anon. I'm sure have great taste and are referencing people who animate space dandy, ghost in the shell, kill la kill, gurren lagen, FMA?
This is coming from a fan of anime, btw. But I can't help but cringe at a lot of anime coming out today. The reason I have a problem is because even low budget shows should have decent still frames, not huge distracting anatomy mistakes... constantly. I see decent flat-faced cutesy girls turn into spaghetti monsters when they walk, run, swim, etc.
If that isn't because people getting jobs as animators should really be doing illustrations because they don't understand 3-d forms and the way a human body acts in motion... well?
I'm also not a purist, thank you for attacking my closet full of charcoal drawings of naked old women, I may just have to throw them away.
I don't really want to get into it right now, but what I'm trying to say is that art that mimics art is not a style. A style is an artist's view. So I believe art that draws from life is more honest and worthwhile, even if you like shows about highschoolers with superpowers.

>>2638599
>>2638596
Ringling does not except anime in your sketchbook because "everybody wants to do it" which means since no animation companies in America draw in that style, it's pointless.

I think Calarts didn't want anime either.

>>2639551
It's a decent point, really. They still should just take people who can draw well regardless.

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>>2639551
>which means since no animation companies in America draw in that style

What exactly would "that" style be though? There are hundreds of different anime styles. Most anime artists and mangaka just draw semi-realistic figures + slightly simplified faces. Many others are very close to western animation.

Pic related is anime. Just in the construction phase.

>>2639573
>Pic related is anime. Just in the construction phase.
>literally says "gesture study" right there in the fucking pic
Just stop.

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>>2639582
And you think anime doesn't use gestures or something? Are you an idiot?

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>>2639585
Are you?

>Pic related is adventure time. Just in the construction phase.

>>2639591
What the fuck is that thing?

>>2639573
>>2639585
Those are gesture studies of anime scenes. Literally the opposite of "anime in the construction phase", and in no way indicative of the production process.

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>>2639591
Are you retarded? It says right in that image:

>Gesture Study
>Ref: A fucking anime

All that the images I posted need for them to be considered "anime" is stylized eyes.

All this talk of gesture and nobody wants to challenge me to a GESTURE BATTLE.

>>2639591
Except those Vilppu gestures look nothing like adventure time whereis Krenz' gestures / figure constructions are literally the basis for his anime style drawings.

>>2638246
>get some taste
>berserk is one the most highly detailed mangas on the market
what

>>2639275
>focusing on the tiny amount of meo/lolli in the entire series
Pleb, know your series. Berserk is has got tens of thousands of pages, and what you got right there is most of the moe/loli in the entire series.

>>2639275
I don't recognize the characters up top. Did he actually start drawing more than one chapter a year again?

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It's not.

Only one or two westaboos get buttmad when anime style is brought up


The majority like it.

>>2639275

thats nu-berserk

>>2638771
Im very sorry that you are insecure pedophile.
Commit sudoku soon.

>>2638783
>Doesn't change the fact the vast, vast majority is.
t. manga expert
right.

>>2639591
this post shows clearly that you fundamentally assume that drawing anime is easy and could never use something like gesture practice.
it's also telling that you admit that anime/manga can be technical and advanced, but "that's only the tiny tiny minority" is what you'll think.

>>2638235
stigma. it might even be well deserved. a lot of people do get into this thinking that it's easy. they often never get out of the beginner phase and they annoy others with "muh style" type excuses.

it's not really the style, but rather the hobbyist fans that have created this stigma i think.

>>2639887
You seem like you know a thing or 2 about gesture...how about you and I stand off in what's known as a GESTURE BATTLE?!?!?

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>>2639901
what the fuck anon

>>2638882
I am serious. There weren't many like I said, but some were definitely pretty good. Besides, a lot of the Disney-style students were bad too. Quality didn't seem to matter to the teachers, just style choice.

>muh anime gesture
>krenz did a gesture study of a finished anime, that means the gesture was part of the production process because I'm retarded
Prove it, faggot. Post an actual gesture from an actual anime production, not studies made after the fact by a third party.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ByyRYgyZw

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>>2639573
Krenz isn't a retarded weeb. He actually studies his fundamentals and doesn't just do animu.

90% of mangakas and anime animators do not do studies like pic related, stop using outlier individuals to represent the whole, you moron.

Why are people putting this Taiwanese chink on a pedestal within the last 2 years? Is it because he does tutorials or shared his personal studies when people should be doing said studies themselves? I'm guessing that's it. Asians have a culture not to debut themselves until they are ready and showing their worst work online or "studies" is an American thing because the western world is impatient. I'm sure Krenz was like "oh shit well those studies sure did make my name get out there quick."

>>2640129
Take the Krenz semen out your mouth.

>>2640150
>/pol/tard shitposting
Remove yourself

>>2640167

>anyone who disagrees with me is shitposting

Can you stop?

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>>2638246
is that fucking vivec

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>>2640129
>outlier
>90% of mangakas and anime animators do not do studies like pic related
Again this bullshit. You're wrong.
EVERYONE who wants to get good at drawing has done studies like these has gone through the fundamentals at some time in their life. You're literally incapable of drawing at a higher level without those fundies.
You're so extremely biased against anime that you think it's somehow different in this case, but it isn't.

You even need fundies to get good at drawing disney cartoons. That should put in perspective how absolutely retarded you are.

>>2640168
>Why are people putting this Taiwanese chink on a pedestal within the last 2 years?
>Take the Krenz semen out your mouth.
Remove yourself

>>2640129
Is this digital? Holy shit.

>>2640174
I don't understand. Are you saying copying out of manga is the "fundies"?

>>2640185
>copying out of manga
Are you retarded?

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retards who learn to draw to draw like that and start stylizing like that even before they learn the most basic of basics.

>>2640174
Nigger, educate yourself on the manga industry.

>>2640189
You told that to the wrong person.
Right back at you.

>>2640188
stop stealing my posting style, bitch.

ugh I swear first my memes and now this, this board would be nothing without me

>>2640175
fuck you

impolite sage

>>2640193
sorry.

>>2640174
>You're so extremely biased against anime that you think it's somehow different in this case, but it isn't.
>You even need fundies to get good at drawing disney cartoons. That should put in perspective how absolutely retarded you are.
lol "even"?
It's funny that a full-blown out weeb is calling someone biased.

>>2640199
>doing a personal attack
That's not how an argument works.

>>2640197

2 apologies in a day wow I'm on honor roll

>Kubo literally says he learned to draw by tracing manga, and that's how most authors learn
>amateur animufags universally known for shunning fundamentals
>noooo you're wrong, they all study fundamentals, anime does not promote symbol drawing belieeeeeve meeeee

>>2640203
>someone who clearly doesn't understand what fundies are

>>2640200
>you're biased
>you're retarded
>you can't call me a weeb omg
anon, you're embarrassing yourself

>>2640204
>tracing symbols is fundies
Good to know.

>>2638778
You're retarded and don't even understand what moe is. [spoiler]2 years[/spoiler]

>>2640207
2 years worth of krenz semen flowed endlessly into anons mouth

>>2639380
What art book is this from?

>>2640187
That's what the pic is. It's copies, or "studies" if you prefer, based off Ueyama Tetsuro's Mitsuyoshi manga series.

>>2640203
>drawing
>without fundamentals
This is bait.

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>>2640199
all my points still stand.
and yes, "even" as in "even these cartoons". i could just as well say "even manga".
i don't look down on disney at all. that should be obvious based on everything i said so far. i just put that in there because of you anon. because you look down on anime the same way some people might look down on disney as just "cartoons".

>>2640203
>one single quote from kubo
nobody cares, especially since it's kubo.
also that anon said "90%". i can guarantee you that the large majority of key animators didn't learn drawing just through copying.
don't get me wrong, a lot of things can be learned through copying other artists. but some things can not.

whenever someone can depict motion well, you can bet your ass that he didn't learn it through copying other manga or animations.
i'm also not saying that they all mastered fundies, i'm saying that they all had contact with it.

>>2640211
>It's copies, or "studies" if you prefer
ok, opinion discarded. don't reply to me again.
learn to draw.

>>2640219
Are you saying copying is the fundie? Why can't you answer the question?

>>2640219
You sound like someone who had a couple "ah-ha" moments this week and thinks he's top shit. Come down from there and face me.

>>2640219
>nobody cares, especially since it's kubo.
>literally the biggest manga ever
Anon, I think plenty people care. I get that you think Krenz is the shit, but nobody decides to draw animu because some random dude from Taiwan, they do it because of people like Kubo.

>>2640203
>Kubo literally says he learned to draw by tracing manga
Proofs?

>>2640228
He said it after the internet made a big deal about Nick Simmons plagiarizing Bleach.

>>2640225
you're projecting. i haven't had these in quite a while.

>>2640223
studying other artists isn't copying anon.
also that artist in question has studied from life as well. again, he didn't learn his whole craft from copying other artists

>>2640227
again, it's one single quote. you don't actually know how kubo learned and what the context of the quote was. everyone can say they learned by copying because that's usually how people BEGIN to draw. but it isn't all you do.

>>2640231
Post proofs.

>>2640232
>but it isn't all you do
You're right. You also gotta chug down some 2 years worth of Taiwanese sperm.

>>2640236
wew
simply ebin

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>>2640237
No need for the complements, I know my memes are the simply the best there is.

>>2640242
>that image
so youre a self hating weeb, gotcha

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>>2640231
>>2640232
>it's one single quote
There is no even single quote. Anon talk out of his ass.
>Tite Kubo, the author of Bleach, one of the manga specifically named, made two Twitter posts on the situation; first to comment on the number of people outside Japan commenting on the accusations and later to note that he is more interested by the fact that Gene Simmons's son is a comic creator than he is concerned any of his work was actually copied.
And there is fuckin two tweets.
>“So, uh, from yesterday night until this morning, there’ve been an amazing number of messages from overseas fans along the lines of “There’s a manga imitating BLEACH in America!” Well, I had a look at the site and I don’t understand English that well, but I think what’s written there is something like “It’s a manga drawn by Gene Simmons’ son, Nick Simmons.”
and
>“I’m more concerned in the fact that Gene Simmons’ son is a manga-ka than whether he’s plagiarizing me or not.”

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>>2640247
No I just wanted to post my girlfriend of the season. Can you be retarded somewhere else though?

>>2640247
People who use "weeb" are degenerates for sure but he's even worse than you because he watching trash

>>2640251
Can I see your fanart of her, anon

>>2638235
There's just something really cringey about anime. It's generally lame shit for retarded kids, so when you get talentless noobs drawing stuff inspired by it, it's just that much more shitty. It's like... imagine an army of kids who are really inspired by Boris Vallejo and Luis Royo and try to make fantasy art inspired by them. The source material is already cringey. The imitations will be even more unbearable.

>>2640251
but you're the retard one here. nobody gives a shit about your hateboner for krenz. this wasn't even about him and i'm not even that big of a fan.
the more i think about it the more i realize how cancerous you are.

>>2640249
so he didn't even say it. wew

>>2640253
I need trash to fill the void.
>>2640254
I'm working on it.

>>2640257
That's implying the only purpose of art is to create the most unique and inspiring paintings known to man.

/ic/ isn't gonna produce any masterpieces, if anime gets a few dozen kids to study fundamentals and eventually learn how to actually draw, that's a good thing in my book.

>>2640261
Who the fuck are you? You just shitpsoter.

>>2640232
>studying other artists isn't copying anon.

Those look copied out of Mitsuyoshi. What's makes them studies?

>>2639751
This

That anon is just an angry bitter folk

File: 4e92ddefba84b81ce60d713a0817346e.gif (917KB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

917KB, 480x270px

>>2639887
>>2639591
>>2639573
>>2639582

>anime/manga can be technical and advanced
>Pic related is anime. Just in the construction phase.

Daily reminder than all of the animu and basically all of the western animation is made on the cheap by Korean workers.

Just fuck off.

>>2638291
I remember reading somewhere that the artist took over the writing after a falling out [pretty sure it was after all that mountain chi shit, tho]

>>2639751
The manga isnt even good on literatural level except for the first chapters till eclipse
>muh revenge
>dude gore lmao
>dude rape lmao
>muh dream
Everything in the manga is so basic the only reason it is popular was because it had a good start and drawings were above generic manga artstyle.The whole thing is so fucking mediocre.