they say it takes 10,000 hours to reach mastery. how many hours

>>2509822
>10 000 hour meme
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/peak/

>>2509822
In my opinion it is dangerous to focus too much on numbers and counting hours. If you focus on that it is easy to lose out on the quality of the practice. Art is mental, and a repetitive grind and numerical approach is not the right one for it.

>>2509825
not saying 10,000 hours is the end goal and it's guaranteed success, just that it's a place to aim for

10,000 hours is just a saying, not an exact science.

The point is that if you apply yourself to mastering a task you're likely to accomplish it quicker than someone who only works on it casually.

>>2509829
>The point is that if you apply yourself to mastering a task you're likely to accomplish it quicker than someone who only works on it casually.
Well no shit.

File: may-2-2016.jpg (245KB, 683x1024px) Image search: [Google]

245KB, 683x1024px

about 8000 hours? from 12 years old to now and im 23? i should hit 10,000 by the end of the year but 10,000 is just to be comfortable. i'd say im comfortable now. i can find of work my way around any material, my concepts are good, and i can capture likenesses in portraiture as well as do landscapes, still lifes, and work from reference digitally.

>>2509826
i find it works for me, if i'm not feeling like i'm putting in my best effort on one day, i settle for 1-2 hours of muscle memory exercises like lines, ellipses etc and that's it for the day. as long as you don't force yourself to do a certain amount regardless of quality, i don't see the harm

>>2509846
I dunno, if it works for you then that's great. For me I don't like to force it. It took a long time before I was able to be okay with taking a break from art for a bit without feeling guilty. Focusing on numbers and hours just leads to disappointment when you don't reach them, or overly focusing on them.

File: schedule.jpg~original.jpg (504KB, 1000x676px) Image search: [Google]

504KB, 1000x676px

>>2509850
what about the fundamentals? sometimes you have to grind certain things in art, weather you want to do them or not. keeping track just seems like keeping yourself accountable and making sure you're being efficient. there's a reason fzd students make so much progress.
not saying you SHOULD be tracking your time, or that you're not putting in enough work (how would i know) but there's good evidence that says the more time you spend drawing, the faster you will improve
also here's dave rapozas schedule

>>2509862
(pic related is dave rapozas schedule )

I've spent probably 10k hours so far, I sketched on the sides of my papers whenever I got bored (and not weeabo shit mind you), I doubt I'm a master, and until my painting looks better than a photograph without the aid of one Ill probably keep grinding 6+ hours a day.

>>2509862
I never could follow strict schedules or anything. I just work on what I feel like and keep myself aware of my weaknesses.

And while there is correlation between more time practicing and higher skills, some people obviously improve faster than others. Whether this is talent or quality/type of practice, it shows that there is more going on than just reaching 10k hours.

File: SP (2).jpg (322KB, 1020x1280px) Image search: [Google]

322KB, 1020x1280px

>>2509864
This is a self portrait

>>2509864
do you ever draw from life?

>>2509869
all the time.

>>2509864
>>2509867
No offence, but I highly doubt you have put in 10000 hours. Both from the quality of your work and from the fact you look quite young. I suspect you severely underestimate how long 10000 hours is.

>>2509871
No offense taken

File: 1406276175077.jpg (284KB, 1400x625px) Image search: [Google]

284KB, 1400x625px

>>2509871

>>2509907
kek

>>2509822
I'd honestly say that sometimes you get 50-100 hours with very little learning/improvement then you can learn a really big thing or make a large leap. A few of those leaps can be enough to punch above your weight.

My point is learning isn't a linear thing and not equal for everyone, stop caring and just enjoy drawing and learning do what you can.

Saying you spend 10k hours on drawing since you were 10 is utter bullshit. Ofcourse, it is possible, but have you really put in 10k hours of drawing while being aware of what you were doing? Spending 10k hours of doodling and perfecting your anime girls won't make your understanding of fundamentals better. Unless you spend some hours actually studying those fundamentals.
Some of you people are so stupid to count those hours you dumbly put your pencil on the paper.

File: 3x_Happy_Puppet_Fun_Hour_by_TimeIsFun.jpg (193KB, 640x496px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 640x496px

>>2510033
im
>>2509842
i drew this when i was 13. i was practicing different hatching techniques, line art, visual library stuff, and composition even back then. i've been thinking about what makes art good and trying to apply it to my work for a long time.

8000 smart hours in 11 years isn't that crazy.

>>2509907
No "school drawing".

The saying of "10,000 = mastery" quite literally means autistic perfection levels of mastery. If you practiced diligently, with real effort and applying yourself for an hour a day.. You would be good enough to sell your art or get a job in the field within 3-4 years EASILY. That's about 1k-1.5k hours. You'd be pretty good. 5 years of that shit and you'd be a pro.

Of course the numbers are rounded and someone who takes it seriously and works on the right things versus someone who isn't practicing quite the right shit are going to vary vastly...

Long story short just keep practicing and you will definitely improve. If you're already "decent" and accumulated a few hundred in your lifetime, you're already on your way

>>2510128
>means autistic perfection levels of mastery
If you're talking of like Old Master levels, then it takes much longer than 10k hours.

>>2510128
do you think 10,000 hours is the best case scenario for being comfortable, the worst case, or somewhere in the middle?

File: 1452670305341.jpg (39KB, 356x332px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 356x332px

>>2509907
>not only am i extensively trained in core fundamentals

Not exactly a stand-out line but hearing him talk about it so much made me laugh.

File: Untitled-3.jpg (126KB, 649x223px) Image search: [Google]

126KB, 649x223px

Hope it makes sense.

And if you're caring more about the hours than the work, it will not work. Yes, it's a curse.

>>2510128
read this >>2509862

also 10,000 is just an arbitrary goal, but not unrealistic or hard. also look at the pic in the OP, how much better do you think 5hr a day guy will be compared to 1 hour in 5 years.

and it's not that it's hard to do 5+ hours a day. that's what i'm doing right now, and not 'forcing' myself to do it, i feel good at the end of the day. if you want to take it easy with 1 hour a day, whatever. but be realistic in your expectations, you won't be improving nearly as quickly as you could.

>inb4 quality over quantity

>>2510143
I fucking agree. Not the quoted.

But yes, one should pay attention to the quality of the work. Do 10 hours of braindead work and all you learned is how to sit 10 hours straight in the chair.

Do 1h/d and by the end of the year the 5h/d guy is probably 5 times better than you.

I think setting a schedule is a good idea. I never thought about how much time i spent drawing since I started a year ago. When I think about it an hour a day is a generous guess since I have to stop for weeks depending on school/work. I need to find that wasted time and spend it.

>>2509829
>10,000 hours is just a saying, not an exact science.
No, it is. Studies found that on average experts across many fields had spent 10.000hours in deliberate practice.

"10k hours to git gud" is bullshit. What I wrote above is science. Get it right, ffs. None of this is new, we have known for years.

>>2510574
It certainly isn't "exact science" because there is no exact definition of what an "expert" is. It's completely arbitrary.

File: Chm-LwsWsAEuLBG.jpg (18KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 400x400px

>>2510574
>what i wrote above is science

>>2510574
>taking pop-science books seriously

>>2510164
you're on the right path m8. try getting a year planner for your wall, one where you can put in how many hours you did each day so you know if you're slacking or not

File: 1462389606175.jpg (105KB, 683x683px) Image search: [Google]

105KB, 683x683px

>implying you won't become good at being bad

>>2511176
if you always analyse where you're going wrong and get critiques, that shouldn't happen. nice b8

>>2509822
>say it takes 10,000 hours to reach mastery.

What ever you do don't bullshit the process our take any short cuts, training your muscles may be as important as training your mind.

Personal antidote, I have played guitar for a long time with bad technique it led to me fucking up my hand and can barley play anymore, it really sucks cuz I was getting decent.

Go slow as fuck,be as humble as fuck, look at everything you do as shit, even if you and others like it.

One last thing learn the Trivium and how to really learn anything the correct way.

Isn't it 10,000 drawings?

I've heard of hours too, but I assumed it was just a corruption of the saying.

[spoiler]Mind that the 10,000 drawings saying is just for getting good, not achieving mastery.[/spoiler]

>>2511908
The ten thousand hour rule was popularized in a Malcolm Gladwell book and is meant to hold true across a variety of fields. It's different from that saying of "you have 10,000 bad drawings in you".

>>2511920
Oh okay. Still, 10,000 of anything is an east Asian idiom meant to refer to 'an immense amount', having never read the book was the statement meant to be literal or figurative?

>>2511925
It's meant to be literal. The idea is based off a study and a few case studies where they analyzed the number of hours of deliberate practice that experts in various fields had put in over the years. They found that 10,000 happened the be the threshold for mastery across all fields.

That said, it is a pop science book that came to conclusions about the results of the studies and presents it as fact. As others in the thread have mentioned there has been other studies contradicting it and there are some very arbitrary assumptions that have to be made (what constitutes a "master"?). I would not take the number as a concrete fact. It's better just as a way to say it takes years of steady practice to master something. Gladwell's books are interesting reads and he's a great writer so it seems very convincing when you read through them, but you need to remember to be critical of what he says (same with books like Freakonomics).

>>2509822
Its funny because when you put that same theory into something like flying planes, a master pilot is considered so when he/she reaches/clocks 3000 hours of recorded flight time.

Don't judge things by the 10k hour myth, its BS.

>>2511964
A large proportion of that 3000 hours is uneventful, so it doesn't count as "deliberate practice". But there is also a lot of ground based training, which does count. So the actual time needed could be more or less than 3000 hours.

File: tumblr_n3xcy0l7ab1rhd1xfo1_250.gif (997KB, 250x192px) Image search: [Google]

997KB, 250x192px

>>2511964
>>2511956
>>2511925
>>2511920
>>2511908


fucking hell i should have known this thread would have devolved into semantics of the 10,000 hours. don't take it too literally, just treat it as an arbitrarily high number to aim for, where it's likely you'll be a lot better at what your doing than when you started.

10,000 hours a day or you're not going to make it.

>>2512001
ty for you contribution god, but we normal folks create worlds just on paper

>ctrl + f "arbit"
>3 arbitrary
>1 arbitrarily

You niggas did good

>>2510142
>commas instead of periods

Euros, I swear

File: 1460761947262.png (604KB, 633x787px) Image search: [Google]

604KB, 633x787px

>People start drawing from 12 or 13
>You cant start from 23
I'm not going to make it

>>2512231
rigney started at like 27 and yum at 25 and they're both considered top level commercial fantasy artists

>>2512236
How old are they now?

>>2512231
Mullins started painting at 23

>>2512239
Min Yum is in his mid 30's. Brad Rigney is in his mid 40's.

can anyone of you fags that have supposedly "practiced" for "500 hours" post your work?

and also is there a site like picarto or something where one of you stream and we could chill and practice at a set time? I'd legit be up for something like that.

File: 5001.jpg (493KB, 1536x2048px) Image search: [Google]

493KB, 1536x2048px

>>2512250
mostly studied figures

>>2509907
Haven't heard anything about him since that Ben Mauro shit. Any more drama?

>>2512250
OP here, this is with almost 900 hours i guess
>>2509824

>>2512263
you've made it

File: Screen Shot 2016-05-06 at 01.25.54.png (87KB, 528x546px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 528x546px

>>2512263
there is a bug on your paper

>>2512394
that's him

File: 13199065_10154037877650853_586134385_o.jpg (64KB, 639x1136px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 639x1136px

>>2512394

>>2512421
reminds me of that porno where the guy fucks a mutant spider

>>2512317
anywhere I can read up on this drama?

9999 hours and 59 minutes in

>>2509822

think I probably have around... 1000? sounds about right... guess i'm 10% pro :^)

gotta stop at 10`000 though, cuz then u finished

Maybe 250

Still a nublet.

>>2510574
>I read outliers and believed every line

>>2512231
the only thing you learn starting at 12 to 13 is how to make lines correctly. The only people who legitimately have a headstart are the autists who started in high school and drawing was their sole hobby.

>>2509827
Not him but, the problem with linking time to getting better is that you can end up just putting hours in to put hours in.
I've seen so many people who just draw for hours on end and not improve at all because they're so focused in putting as many hours as they can into drawing, because that's what they think will make them improve, rather than taking the time for deliberate practice.
Which is what they talk about in that link anon posted.
Of course the best case scenario is you would engage in deliberate practice for a lot of hours every day, but that's extremely difficult to do as it's very mentally exhausting.
And that's not even getting into managing a balanced life. You need to nurture personal relationships, go out and see places, travel etc. and exercise. It all contributes to a healthy body and mind, one that's more equipped for learning.

>>2510128

enjoy being mediocre

>>2515447

i think it's a given that the time counted is deliberate practice.

>u need to nurture personal relationships, go out and see places, travel etc. and exercise

:/

>>2515459
> :/
It's true though, there have been studies on what causes happiness, and it's found it's highly dependent on people's relationships with others in their life.
https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_waldinger_what_makes_a_good_life_lessons_from_the_longest_study_on_happiness?language=en#t-247152
The longest study on happiness, enough of a sample rate and sound testing methods to be credible.
It feels like the study was just a formality anyways, it doesn't take a genius to see that it's fulfilling relationships that contribute to healthy and happy minds, and that loneliness is a poison.

Going out and seeing places, travelling around the world, contributes incredibly well to your thought process and imagination when creating your own art illustrations, concepts etc.
Visual library some call it.

And exercise is obvious, not only healthy for your body, but also for your mind, something that's often overlooked.

>>2515476
>>Going out and seeing places, travelling around the world, contributes incredibly well to your thought process and imagination when creating your own art illustrations, concepts etc.
>Visual library some call it.
yup, cannot stress enough

File: tumblr_ndsui5iznP1qzcv7no1_500.jpg (78KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 500x500px

>>2515476
>>2515963
so a scrawny shut-in like me is doomed to fail?

>>2516001
it'll just take longer to get as good, you aren't doomed friend

if you all werent't so lazy youd grind loomis at work or school or whatever the fuck you do instead of doodling mindlessly like i know you all do

File: woodrow wilson stamp.jpg (21KB, 326x321px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 326x321px

>>>>2516018
What if I don't want to draw like your precious Loomis?

What if you draw 5000 hours and stop for 10 years and put another 5000 in after it?

>>2516021

Are you one of those jackasses who picks up an art instruction book, skips over the actual exercises and information, then copies a few of the drawings and then complains you didn't learn anything?

You can study Loomis and not draw like him you fuckwit. His books aren't "how to draw exactly in my style" they're the basics of how to draw, period.

>>2516049
fuck you go die, loomis isn't the only resource for anatomy. draw with jazza on youtube posts anatomy tutorials in a style i like.

>>2516056
nice b8 m8 its gr8 i r8 it 8/8

File: 1458995920998.gif (1017KB, 229x188px) Image search: [Google]

1017KB, 229x188px

>>2516056

Add a dash of subtlety next time and you'll have yourself nice a spicy shitpost.

>>2515476
>Going out and seeing places, travelling around the world, contributes incredibly well to your thought process and imagination when creating your own art illustrations, concepts etc.
Visual library some call it.

95 percent of making in art is technical skill and networking, once you have your fundamentals down Its useful to take breaks to get inspiration but until then I honestly think people just say shit like this because they don't want to think that them taking vacations and shit is making them better at art.

There are tons of examples of shut ins who barely do anything but art getting jobs and making it a as professional , I haven't heard one of someone who spends most of there time traveling the world and working 4 hours a day.Especially not in the beginning stages where your just learning the basics.

If you want to have spend tons of time traveling, being with friends and family/goofing off that's great and its something everybody should do. Just don't pretend your art is somehow getting better while your doing it.

>>2516166
i agree with you, the whole 'get out there and enjoy life and your art will get better' mentality is bullshit. i guess for certain types of people who crave adventure and social interactions to be happy it can help them get in a positive mindset for art, but that isn't everyone.

>>2515447


although seeing something in real life, being immersed in a new environment can give you a more firsthand understanding and excitement for something you're drawing, it isn't going to make or break someone as becoming a great artist or stunt someones visual library if they don't go to these places. you can use google street view, google images, pinterest, tumblr, books, magazines, it's not like there's a shortage of visual information.

>>2510574
I think even the guy who wrote the book and did that research said that it isn't really that black and white.

I just started getting serious about drawing. Is 4hrs a day a good amount? Im a fulltime student with a part time job. 3 is my minimum and if possible i try to draw for like 6hrs

>>2516166
>If you want to have spend tons of time traveling, being with friends and family/goofing off that's great and its something everybody should do. Just don't pretend your art is somehow getting better while your doing it.

I think for the most part you're right, but life experience and seeing things for yourself does help to an extent, for inspiration if nothing else.

That says you actually need to be observing and analyzing, and you still need to practice. You don't just passively absorb stuff, not in any way that's worth talking about.

>>2517553
i think those experiences will more benefit to graphic novel artists, someone who needs to develop a story along with the art

>>2517530
as long as you are really pushing yourself during those 4 hours it's good considering you're a student with a part time job. always make sure you're going through something from the fundamentals during that time, e.g. going through a perspective / figure drawing book, and most importantly don't rush through them to say you finished 3 chapters in a day. always go through the steps and don't move on until you feel 100% comfortable. also never think you're too good for the early exercises, it's got to be the downfall of 95% of artists here

I've put in around 3,000 hours already and I'm attending an atelier. So when I'm finished with that program I should have clocked in over 10,000 hours.

just my theory but i'd imagine what takes one artist 10,000 unfocussed hours to get to a certain point with drawing, could take another artist 2,500 hours to achieve with concentrated practice on the fundamentals only

>>2509822
>not doing 16 hours a day
I thought /ic/ was supposed to be full of NEETs

>>2519921

this.

it ur going somewhere and the gps says it takes an hour i guarantee you'll get there a lot faster in a ferrari than in a minivan.

File: 1456252512420.jpg (14KB, 236x354px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 236x354px

Is 10000 hours strictly creating product or does it include theory, ideology, idea, philosophy, observation, etc. Can't imagine 10000 hours of only touching graphite to paper is the whole process.

>>2523297
>taking 10,000 hours too literally


-______________-

>>2523297
if you haven't figured it out, 10000 is an arbitrary number with no basis in reality. You can become a "master" long before that. IT's just an expression to say you have to do something for a long itme to get good at it.

>>2523303
>>2523301
You're the one who is missing the point. Read the post and disregard the 10000. Infact, put any number you feel. Then answer again.

>>2523306
well generally i'd think it was taking action towards the goal of being an artist, whether that's reading through art theory books, observation etc. or putting pen to paper. but i see it as being as optimal and efficient in your efforts as possible, so no bullshiting, like spending 30 hours of the week looking up reference and 10 hours drawing, then getting frustrated that you aren't getting a return for your efforts.

so yeah all of that stuff does count to becoming a better artist, just make sure you're being efficient with your learning, e.g. focus on the fundamentals before doing individual subjects, draw a lot more than you think about drawing, don't skip any steps etc.

>>2523306
Obviously if you just spend 10k hours doodling you won't get anywhere. There has to be directed study and critical analysis at every step because the skill is far more a mental one than a physical one.

Work smart, not hard. You could work dumb for 30,000 hours and be worse than someone who spent 1000 hours well.

>>2523331
but working hard is pretty smart

>>2509822
I will get back into it after a long break, I currently should be at 500 +/-
Once I'm in the military I'll have at least 3 hours a day for drawing (41 hours weeks would give me plenty of time but I think 3 hours will be sufficient if I stick to it for some years) and try to get to catbib levels, he is everything I'm aspiring to be, self taught, illustration, great style great sense of light and colors and just an all around down to earth guy.

Wish me luck brehs, we're all gonna make it

>>2509842
I don't want to be bashful and this is certainly not bad work but that's very mediocre for 8000 hours of practice.

Keep it up bro, with the right kind of studies you can turn the 2000 to come into an exponential skill curve

>>2510574
Everyone is different, catbib for example was very good after 2 dedicated years of studying, someone else might have gotten gud in that time and someone else might need three times as long but has a better understanding of something else in return, 10000 hours is a guideline that will most likely be a point in time where someone who actually did the work will be an "expert"

It's like lifting weights or learning a language, some people will get results faster just because they're more intelligent or hard working or their brains are "made" for it