Have you read "English: The Language of the Vikings&quo

>>997108
I want to say this is ridiculous, but Joseph Emonds is a legitimate generative syntactician

If anything English should be considered Romance.

Rebuttal:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4351

>>997355
this meme needs to stop

>>997108
They're cretin
Modern English is closer from French than from any Scandinavian language if anything

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>>997463
The truth senpai

>>997108
can you actually give me the rundown on the changes? because English has all the qualifications for being a west Germanic language.

i know Norwegian has some surpassing similarities.

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>>997466
that is not how linguistics work you basketcase

either way

>>997464
its time to stop

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>>997474
Your pic is very misleading because it takes all kinds of word together
Irrelevant words like pronouns and prepositions are always Germanic, which fuck up the stats
Of course since you'll have millions of "the" and "a" is a book, you'll have stats like this

But when you look at important words, the ones that give its sense to a sentence (verbs, adjectives and nouns), it's easily 50/50 between Germanic and Romance

>>997511
Beat me to it

>>997511
>>997520
>the words completely necessary to sentence structure are Germanic, therefore the language is Romance.
is this actually your line of thinking? furthermore, vocabulary is not what classifies a language, if this were the case, Finnish, a total unrelated language, would have a strong case to be considered Germanic, but this is clearly untrue because for all the Swedish-derived words, Finnish is structured completely different, and the same is true between English and French, but to a lesser extent because at least they are both Aryan languages.

This is some pleb-tier linguistics you're talking.

>>997756
Are you trying to deny that structure words are less relevant to communication of idea than sense-giving ones?

Here's a sentence
>These people use the river to enter the city

Take out all French words, you have
>These the to the

Take out all Germanic words, you have
>people use river enter city

One can still perfectly transmit the idea, while the other is just an empty shell

>>997779
that's now how linguistic classification works, the order those words were but in is unrelated to french, and yet more the words you chose can be changed to make the sentence completely Germanic.

>these folk take the creek to come into the town

but that doesn't matter, since the word origin does not determine language family.

>Ces personnes utilisent la rivière pour entrer dans la ville
structure is totally different

English is pretty similar to Norwegian

>>997804
i recant "creek" because that is used to describe a different body of water

what is even more appropriate than 'river' in this case is "waterway", a Germanic origin word.

>>997804
>these folk take the creek to come into the town
Creek and town do not equate to river and city

>Ces personnes utilisent la rivière pour entrer dans la ville
>structure is totally different
How exactly is it any different?
It looks the exact same as the English sentence to me
On the other hand, I'd bet my ass that the structure would be way different in German

>>997806
Are you Norwegian?

>>997838
ja

>>997818
>creek
waterway

>city
township is only by use of dual terms that one has come to mean more than the other. borough is also a suitable term, with cities such as Edinburgh deriving from that word, and being major cities.

the structure is clearly different, lets take my Germanic origin sentence and compare it with Dutch, a closer West Germanic language than german

>de folk nemen de waterweg naar de stad te komen

just look at word order between the italic languages and Germanic ones, its the things like "the Red Baron" vs "le Baron Rouge", notice how the color is stated after the subject, not before.

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>>997466
Vocabulary isn't the only thing you go off of. The vast majority of our most commonly used words and grammar is still Germanic, although simplified pidgin Germanic.

>>997984
>simplified pidgin germanic
How?

>>997779
People isn't Germanic, it has Etruscan roots.

>>997984
>most commonly used words

See
>>997511
>>997779

The "most commonly used words" are shit like "the", "a", "at", "to"...
It means jack shit
If you go by sense-giving words, it's easily 50/50 between Germanic and French/Latin

>>998000
we're already going through this dance, please read >>997907 and up

>>997991
The post you're replying to did in no way imply that "people" is Germanic
Read better

People comes from the French "peuple" which itself comes from the Latin "populus"

>>997989
Usually what happens when a group gets conquered then has a new language thrusted on them. Old English was for the most part purely Germanic because the celtic populations were weakened enough by a bubonic plague during Saxon invasions (brought by trade roots from North Africa spanning back from the times of Carthage). The Norman invasion pretty much fucked up the language and that's when you see a bastardization occur, a lot of Latin vocabulary thrown in and a lot of the complex Germanic grammar disappears.

>>998022
> lot of the complex Germanic grammar disappears
Such as?

>>998022
this is true, while English hits all the marks of a Germanic language, many of the more complex things are toned down, so it may be one of the simplest of the family. its there, just not to the extent of others oftentimes.

>>998014
Misread it my bad. It is Etruscan though. Just like military and belt.

>>998032
>Verb second (V2) word order, which is uncommon cross-linguistically. Exactly one noun phrase or adverbial element must precede the verb; in particular, if an adverb or prepositional phrase precedes the verb, then the subject must immediately follow the finite verb. This is no longer present in modern English except in sentences beginning with "Here is," "There is," "Here comes," "There goes," and related expressions, as well as in a few relic sentences such as "Over went the boat", "Pop Goes The Weasel", the palindrome "Able was I ere I saw Elba" or "Boom goes the dynamite", and in most if not all (if not an absolute) of the Five Ws and one H questions e.g. "What has happened here?", "Who was here today?", "Where will we go?", "When did he go to the stadium?", "Why would this happen to us now?", and "How could these things get here?", but is found in all other modern Germanic languages.

>A change known as Germanic umlaut, which modified vowel qualities when a high front vocalic segment (/i/, /iː/ or /j/) followed in the next syllable. Generally, back vowels were fronted, and front vowels were raised. In many languages, the modified vowels are indicated with an umlaut (e.g., ä ö ü in German, pronounced /ɛ o y/, respectively). This change resulted in pervasive alternations in related words — still extremely prominent in modern German but present only in remnants in modern English (e.g., mouse/mice, goose/geese, broad/breadth, tell/told, old/elder, foul/filth, gold/gild[28]).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

they are there, just not everpresent like most of the Germanic languages.

>>998036
isn't Afrikaans generally considered to be the most streamlined Germanic language? English still has its kinks and irregularities, Afrikaans seems tailor-made to be acquired fast

>>998032
Look at the features of old English, and Icelandic is a good example too since we use it to better understand old english, then compared them to middle and modern English.

>>998054
Most simplifications in English happened to Dutch and the mainland Scandinavian languages too. Even German is super-simplified compared to Icelandic.

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>>997108
>ignoring the Flemish origins of modern english
>mfw

modern english didn't develop until 400 years after the Vikings.

>>998054
late Old English tended to slur grammatical endings so much that people dropped them eventually

why the fuck Englishmen suddenly started giving so little shit about pronouncing endings in a clear manner is beyond me

>>998038
It's a Latin word that entered English through French, like the vast majority of English language's Romance stock
Now, the origin of the Latin word may have been Etruscan, buit no one goes that far when looking at origins
Latin is good enough basis so you dont need to look further back that

>>998048
i believe so

as i understand it, i may be wrong, the further in distance the language is from its home origins, the simpler it often gets because it isn't held to the same nuances as its neighbors

Old English, the languages of the Angles, was closer to Dutch (Old Franconian) and Low German (Old Saxon) because they were in contact with each other, and when they migrated across the water, it changed to an extent and lost some of its complexity.

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>>998054
>>998062
Icelandic scores a 0 here for the record.

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>>997108
>as during Danelaw the original Anglo-Saxon language fell out of use and in fact a dialect of Norse, scented with Anglo-Saxon vocabulary, became the lingua franca of Britain

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Let's get this shit started

>>998066
in the modern day, with dictionaries and the like, we have notions of "correctness" in language

back when, people spoke only to communicate, so languages came out of dialects, with accent playing much a role.

also something about Germanic languages stressing the first syllable all the time encourages shortening words, which is why Proto-Germanic often times has longer words.

>>998071
I'd rather know the accurate origin than stopping short.

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>>998090
>Sovngarde

>>998090
Skyrim belongs to the Nords

>>998066
Spoken language has always differed from written. Look at the romance languages, they still tried writing them in classical Latin until Charlemagne's time.

>>998100
then we have to ask first hominids with lowered trachea why they chose to vocalise at the sight of wolves

>>998090
My sides.

>>997108
Scots should certainly be considered North Germanic

Compare the vocabulary with Danish and Norwegian

Dunno about Standard English though

>>998075
>Old English, the languages of the Angles, was closer to Dutch (Old Franconian) and Low >
German (Old Saxon) because they were in contact with each other, and when they migrated across the water, it changed to an extent and lost some of its complexity.

THIS....also it wasn't all that long ago. The Norman and Plantagenet kings used Flemish colonists extensively all over Britain. Then the wool trade also created tremendous exchange.

>>998116
Not really, because with one case is one we can actually prove and have writing on and the other would be pure extrapolation. Nothing wrong with going as far back as you can prove or at least effectively speculate for better understanding of origin. Kind of the point of the historical field.

>>998123
how does this work with actual sentence structure, and not just word origin?

both Scots and English are Anglic.

>>998136
English and Scots both have North Germanic sentence structure

>>998123
there was some Scottish island inhabited by actual Scandinavians speaking a Norse dialect

however to call Scots North Germanic is a stretch

>>998153
i am curious. how so?

>>998123
Pretty damn similar in a lot of words. Names for the various facial features and bodyparts are very similar.
Oje = Eye
Ore = Ear
Mund = Mouth
Næse = Nose
Hoved = Head
Arm = Arm
Hånd = Hand
Finger = Finger
Tå = Toe
Fod = Foot
Bryst = Breast

Legs get kinda weird though, since Danish for Leg is Ben, but we also sometimes use Ben for Bone, so Rib is Ribben in Danis for instance.

>>998167
that was called Norn, and it was in the Oakland and Shetland isles.

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ITT:/his/ realizes a language can have influences from more than one other language

>>998167
Shetland Islanders don't even consider themselves Scottish, but Scandis.

>>998177
that is because were all Germanic, we will have the same origins and so have similarities, this is not the same as actually being in the same family, this comes with structure.

>>998087
>Blerk
>Blark
>Blork
That's a barbarian tongue if I've ever heard one.

>>998177
>anon discovers cognates

wew lad

>>998193
>does not speak a North Germanic language
>thinks they're North Germanic
hue

>>998196
its fucking fake you retard

>>998123
>Scots should certainly be considered North Germanic
Scots is just a very distinct dialect of English. It's not a separate language, stop pretending it is.

>>998226
Because there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots and particularly its relationship to English.[8] Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects do exist, these often render contradictory results. Broad Scots is at one end of a bipolar linguistic continuum, with Scottish Standard English at the other.[9] Scots is often regarded as one of the ancient varieties of English, yet it has its own distinct dialects.[8] Alternatively, Scots is sometimes treated as a distinct Germanic language, in the way Norwegian is closely linked to, yet distinct from, Danish.[8]

>>998244
Norwegian has some distinct literary tradition though

what does Scots have, "Trainspotting"?

>>998177
Legs can be referred to as 'pins', but I don't know if that's a hangover from that root, or just a later slang word based on their appearance

>>998205
They're pretty WE WUZ tier.

>>998169
>English
I can speak German
>Norwegian
eg kan snakke tysk
>German
Ich kann Deutsch sprechen

>English
I have not eaten today
>Norwegian
Jeg har ikke spist i dag
TL note: ikke = not, i dag = today
>German
Ich habe heute nicht gegessen

>>998269
>>998169
Can we get a comparison from Old English (preferably 'before' and 'after' the Norse influence)?

>>997463
this.

>>998284
main corpus of Old English writing was made in king Alfred's era or right after his reign

Norsemen were already there

>>998284
Ic hæbbe is "I have," but I think the negative is a prefix in Old English. So it would be "I not-have," as a literal translation. But I could be massively wrong.

>>998327
Weren't they technically "always there"?

>>998334
Old English also put the participle and infinitive at the end of the sentence like German and Dutch, and unlike Modern English and Scandinavian.

Well old english lads give a shot at this, it's old Frisian

Tha thi koning Karle and thi koning Redbad fan Danemercum in that land comen, tha bisette aider sine wei ina Franekra ghae mit ene herescilde, and quat aider, that land ware sin. Da woldent wise lioed sena, ende da heren woldent bifiuchta. Thach wisade ma there sona alsoe langh, dat met op dae tweer koningen gaf, hoder so otherne an stille stalle urstode, dat hi wonnen hade. Da brocht ma da heren togathere. Da stoden se en etmel al omme. Da leet di koningh Karle sine hantsco falla. Tha rachtene him thi koning Redbad. Da quat di koningh Karle: “A ha, a ha, dat land is myn”, ende hlackade. Alderumbe hat sin vrth Hachense. “Hwervmbe?”, quat Redbad. That quat Karle: “Y sint myn man worden”. Tha quat Redbad: "O wach". Alderumbe hat sin worth Wachense.

>>998327
>main corpus of Old English writing was made in king Alfred's era or right after his reign
>the Scandinavians would have a linguistic impact on Wessex, which was never part of the Danelaw
come on now

>>998343
he moved to Westminster later in his life

>>998341
Frisian is nifty as hell, compare modern Frisian to a modern Anglic language wherein you choose Germanic-origin words, and they are incredibly similar.

>>998351
Soe i thisse lioden, ther i alheer under ede ladeth zijn um her N daedbannede, ende alla da jenne, ther i hana, willeth halda mit festa trouwen ende een fulle ende festen ferde alanch ende alderlang ende alsoe langhe, soe di wynd fan dae ulkenum wayth ende ghers groyt ende baem bloyt ende dyo sonne optijocht ende dyo wrald steed; dat i dat ne lete um mannis rede, om frouwen sponste ner um ju selvis tochta ner om nene seckum, ther joe framia jef scadia moghe.
Thet joe God alsoe helpe.

>>998356
I'm picking up things, but i cant fully understand it.