Was life in the USSR really AS BAD as it's portrayed in

>>992352

I mean, to be fair, Russia is still a shithole, so that wouldn't be saying much.

>>992352
>Was life in the USSR really AS BAD as it's portrayed in the west?
Yes.

>My mom keep insisting that all things considered, people generally lived happier and more fulfilling/satisfying lives under socialist rule, at least in the urban regions.
Unfortunately, your mother has bought into either Stalin's propaganda or leftist revisionism. How old is she?

>>992352
Firstly, clarify how "AS BAD" you are talking about.

Secondly, USSR was a very diverse country when it came to quality of life. Baltic republics were good, Moscow was good, republican capitals were okay but shit like small towns in central Russia was stuff of nightmares, as far as I know.

I was watching a travel show a few years ago about Bulgaria and someone made a remark: "During Communism we had lots of money but nothing to buy. Now the shops are full but we have no money."

>>992385
>yes
Elaborate maybe? I know a few Russians and they all say that life didn't really change that much between the USSR and modern Russia.

>>992352

Depends on time period/region.

1930's Ukraine was like apocalyptic, people eating each other, forced starvation, actual death quotas for numbers of people killed bad.

>>992352
"people lived more satisfying lives under socialism" is just nostalgic garbage, it means nothing. The USSR could barely provide basic necessities to its populace in the latter years, and the way it catastrophically collapsed and its citizens immediately succumbed to the worst excesses of capitalism proves that they didn't want any of it, and that its moral and educational system was a total failure.

>>992385
To be quite honest, here in spain many old people say the same shit about Franco's regime, and I have heard people from other places say shit like that about totalitarian or authoritarian regimes.

But I think it goes like this, as long as you don't think/question what your government does or think something you are not supposed to think, a totalitarian/authoritarian regime is not THAT bad.

On the other side, if you were an activist or a relative of one, you were pretty fucked up in those regimes

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>>992405
Quality of life did get improved significantly, although most people fall for the "low Soviet prices" and "goods were built to last" memes.

The former is true but the wages were low as fuck too. 120 rubles per month or so was an average, 400 rubles were absolute top tier, of course 3 rubles would be serious money with wages that low. The cheapest car - pic related - costed 4500 rubles, First model Lada was 5500.

As for "Soviet stuff was ugly but it worked well", it's mostly classic survival bias. Fuck, look at Soviet cars again, "built to last" my ass.

Then you've got a giant amount of pure convenience stuff which people managed to get access too. Do you know that there were literally no women's pads in USSR?

>>992385
>How old is she?
Will be 51 this year. Moved to the USA in the mid-90's.

>>992389
>baltic republics were good
im from lithuania
we were just a bit better off because of good position(not a fucking steppe) and generally being nice lads
everything was produced considering whole ussr thats why we had lots off factories we didnt consume anything we just made lots of shit for soviet military and russians
censorship and human rights abuses were fucking awful

people like to say that life under gommies was better because they were young at the time and everything looks cool when youre young

>>992352
Communism was pretty good desu
>work in a shitty job
>basically do all the minimum mandatory work while your supervisor is nearby
>drink vodka with your colleagues for the rest of your shift
>go in your government owned flat in commie block #632 to sleep
>repeat it all over again
CЛABA CCCP!

>>992408
Bullshit, the famine occurred throughout the USSR. It's only in the Ukraine that nationalists warped it into a conspiracy theory.

>>992456
Wasn't it also because there was a fuckton of russians resettled into balcan republics? I'd imagine they would have a bit different view on things

>>992432
>But I think it goes like this, as long as you don't think/question what your government does or think something you are not supposed to think, a totalitarian/authoritarian regime is not THAT bad.
>On the other side, if you were an activist or a relative of one, you were pretty fucked up in those regimes
T b h, even this isn't quite accurate. USSR wasn't one of those places that you could just like the ruler and get along easily. Stalin was paranoid, and the average person suffered regardless of their politics.

>>992352
It's so good people risk their lives escaping it.

>>992456
I didn't say Baltics were better during the occupation since it's obviously wrong, I meant "good" as in compared to inner-Russian hellholes.

>>992465
What does that have to do with the fact it was a terrible time to live in Ukraine?

>>992455
>Will be 51 this year.
Yeah, so she either was taught this by her parents or people around her.

>>992437
>Quality of life did get improved significantly
My 80 year old grandma says that besides the 40's and early 50's, the 90's were the hardest period to live through.

>>992352
>My mom keep insisting that all things considered, people generally lived happier and more fulfilling/satisfying lives under socialist rule

she's fucking lying m8

>>992465
>>992477
I think he's arguing that it wasn't just Ukraine that suffered, and that people shouldn't just focus on that.

>>992457
kek

>>992457
>drink vodka with your colleagues for the rest of your shift

yeah definitely how it went down every day

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>tfw you remember Finland waged psychological against the USSR warfare by sending food commercials

>>992467
Yeah, but it was mostly just Stalin's period. USSR from mid 50's to it's collapse was much more lenient on the repressions.

>>992487
It's hard to do when Russians are notorious for disregarding lives of their own countrymen.

>>992482
She was also young and attractive during USSR.

>>992494
Source?

>>992498
I guess I'll take your word for it. I don't really know anything past Lenin and Stalin.

>>992498
Stalin was so batshit insane that even outside of USSR life got easier once he kicked the bucket. A lot of countries in the Warsaw Pact had a huge relief in the decade after that, possibly the best time in all of communist regime, since things turned to shit later

It was indisputably a progressive development from Tsarism (and better than the 90s).

The general population had certain rights which are simply incompatible with capitalist economies including an unmatched degree of employment security, which counted for a lot and gave them a considerable measure of peace of mind.

There were significant measures to combat alcoholism that counted for a lot.

I read an interesting book which included a great deal of comparison between the USSR and the Russian Federation that I think will interest you

http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100573890

>>992512
Like all teenage "le history fans".

>>992352

Things were generally OK from 1945-1975. Everything after that period though was kind of shit and before it the situation was unspeakably horrific. There is no sane reason to believe things would have been better under capitalism, the only options on the table after the revolution were a socialist party-dictatorship or a reactionary military one. This isn't an apology for the crimes of the Soviet state, I'm just pointing out the shameless apologetics for the cult of anti-communism present in this thread.

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>>992522
>There were significant measures to combat alcoholism that counted for a lot.

Aside from Gorbachev's attempt to do it, USSR was a perfect environment for spread of alcoholism.

>>992508
I don't got any English source but there used ti be a finnish commercial narrating a butcher named Väinö Purje which Estonian tvs could pick up. Seeing how their close neighboor Finland endulged in meat while they barely had anything should have taken it's tool at general morale.
https://youtu.be/8Lh9IDb2_x8

>>992465
>it was the kulaks burning their own farms because they're evil capitalists, not all the competent agricultural workers being murdered!

>>992548

The leadership in Estonia declared that it was ideological propaganda from the west, that Finns didn't actually live like that.

t. a Finn

>>992352
>was life in the USSR really AS BAD as it's portrayed in the West?

Depends when. There were times where it was probably worse, and there were times where you would probably quite like it.

Most people who are around during it were alive during the later USSR when things were pretty comfy, but obviously when things were just getting off the ground, it could suck pretty badly depending on who you were, where you lived, etc.

>>992533
No, simpleton, the campaign against it started with Lenin and it started hard. Get your shit straight before talking out your ass.

>>992564
Yeah, didn't the ask finland to stop sending them?

>>992527
>There is no sane reason to believe things would have been better under capitalism

>there was nothing they could do!
>Stalin's hands were tied!
>he was forced to kill all those farmers, and steal all that grain!

>>992561
Kulaks were parasitic garbage that needed to be destroyed and the rural proletariat were plenty glad to see them liquified. Their holdings were a major impediment to industry and food security which could only come about with their breakup. Sorry, but they richly deserved everything they got.

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>soviet union
>socialist

>>992584
*tips ushanka*
I too enjoy the memes of r/fullcommunism

>>992581
>people don't realize the Soviet state sent aid to the Ukr. SSR during the famine

>>992522
>which counted for a lot and gave them a considerable measure of peace of mind.

I'm sure they remarked on that while waiting in lines for food and toilet paper.

>>992587
>SOCIALISM HAS NEVER BEEN PRACTICED PROPERLY

>>992592
>Sovietaboos don't realize "sending aid" to a famine you caused thatkilled millions of people doesn't make up for anything.

Countdown until someone posts that homemade "myths about the USSR debunked" webpage that hasn't been updated since the 90s.

>>992592
>ok, here's your 1 gram of aid, poroshenko
>now give me 5 million pounds of grain

>>992570
Then I guess it wasn't hard enough, because it was spreading like wildfire.

>>992587
>Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
>Not socialist
>Socialism not a tool meant to bring about communism

Read Marx :^)

>>992603
>that hasn't been updated since the 90s
Be easy on them. They haven't been able to update it, since they moved to a socialist country and starved to death.

>>992603
>>992605
Hang on, let me find the site. Is Ukrainian government website, unless I am confusing it with another. I have lots of these resources saved on my computer.

>>992621
>Hang on, let me find the site. Is Ukrainian government website, unless I am confusing it with another. I have lots of these resources saved on my computer.

We weren't asking you to post it, we already know the source and have seen it debunked reguarly enough to preemptively mock you for even thinking about it.

>>992598
I'll never understand why this is some big atrocity when it was free.

>>992621
>>992625
I haven't seen it yet, so I'd enjoy to see it debunked.

>tfw 2 month newfag

>>992630
Considering the net result was death and suffering, I think that may be the atrocity in it.

>>992589
To put it in perspective;
Landlords
Bosses
Cops
Kulaks were a little bit of all three.

>>992630
>I'll never understand why this is some big atrocity when it was free.
If you can't see the issue with waiting in lines for basic necessities the government would jail and in all likelihood kill you for attempting to obtain by other means, simply because they were "free", then there's no conversing with you.

>>992632
Which was why life expectancy doubled and the largest population increase happened during all that death and suffering. :, (

>>992641
>Which was why life expectancy doubled and the largest population increase happened during all that death and suffering. :, (
Let me guess, official USSR state statistics and records?

Gee, I wonder what might be affecting those numbers...

>>992602
>>992612
>The workers
>Owning the means of production
>Soviet Union
>State owned the means of production

>>992638
If you think the hard currency shops didn't exist or were somehow illegal, there's no conversing with you because you haven't done enough research to warrant speaking on this subject.

>>992352
Honestly, based on everything I know about the DDR, I wouldn't mind living there at all, providing that the Stasi officer assigned to me wasn't a complete dick.
>Strong local community, easy to meet people and get involved
>Guaranteed some type of job
>relatively easy to get an apartment because Onkel Klaus just took a "vacation to Hungary"
>qt Russian bitches everywhere
>Stasi didn't really care about certain types of contraband+listening to music that was TOTAL VERBOTEN would just make it better.
>Famine was never a gigantic issue, I can live with pickle shortages.

>>992643
You mean the same records that claimed about 300 destroyed Tigers in a battle where Reich fielded 40?

>>992621
>>992631

http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Publicat/Senpai-Pyrig-1933.php

As you can see, it from the Ukrainian government, so it is not exactly an apologetic website.

As you can see, the Party did indeed have a role in the famine; however, there was a point where the administration realized it fucked up massively and things had gotten out of hand (most likely because the harvest was much worse than they had anticipated, and thus their requisition quotas were also much higher than they could afford).

>>992646
But why did you quote my post? Aren't you literally arguing that socialism wasn't really practiced there?

>>992641
[citation needed]

>>992649
>DDR
>Basically like living in deep USSR

Sure

>>992647
>If you think the hard currency shops didn't exist or were somehow illegal
The ones with exorbitant prices and heavily controlled stock/goods? That most Soviets couldn't afford to shop from regularly, even if they could always keep basic goods on the shelf?

As many soviets learned, you can keep ignoring reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

>>992652
Site doesn't work.

>>992647
They weren't. Obtaining currency short of going abroad was.

>>992652
>http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Publicat/Senpai-Pyrig-1933.php

>Not Found
>The requested URL /Sections/Famine/Publicat/Senpai-Pyrig-1933.php was not found on this server.
>Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.archives.gov.ua Port 80

:^)

>>992651
Of course. What, you don't believe the glorious Soviet people smashed all those nazi tanks?

>>992646
Yes, and the administrative capacity taken on by collectives and soviets as part of participation within the state is ignored because anarchists are fucking stupid.

>>992437
dude, ladas are still rolling, they are quite good regarding their price.

>>992352

>My mom keep insisting that all things considered, people generally lived happier and more fulfilling/satisfying lives under socialist rule, at least in the urban regions.
Same thing my parents said when I asked them about the Brazilian military dictatorship. It doesn't mean it was good.

>>992352
It was shit but it got worse in many aspect and better in very few.

>>992663
what the fugg. Is it working for everyone else? Are you in China or Russia or something where shit like this might be blocked? Idk.

I can try screenshotting parts of it, but it is a fucking massive webpage.

>>992352
What your mother means is that capitalism has good and bad sides just like authoritarian soviet socialism did, and she misses whatever positive aspects there were that are not present in capitalist eastern Europe.

>>992669
Not that guy but F A M got wordfiltered, apparently.

>>992652
What exactly can one "see" there? It's got 115 documents, most of which include some kind of repressive measures applied. Give the numbers of the ones you're referencing or fuck off.

>>992669
>>992663
Wait, I found out why it doesn't work.

The URL abbreviates "famine" to the first three letters.

Now, what did Hiroshima Nagasaki do to the filter?

Now, look at the URL closely.

>>992675
They're still rolling because they'd been manufactured long past USSR was dissolved.

>>992689
>The URL abbreviates "famine" to the first three letters.
Neither F A M nor Famine work.

>>992697
It's probably case-sensitive. "F a m" without spaces did the trick for me.

>>992688
Number 168-174 are specific measures with regard to food aid.

>>992432
this guy gets it.

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>>992697

>>992657
http://missinglink.ucsf.edu/lm/russia_guide/Russianhealth2.htm

>>992680
>>992706
Lol I'm in America. But never mind, it looks like the issue was f a m being filtered on this site.

>>992652
>>992680
>>992689
>>992697
>>992699
>>992704
Wait, what was the point of linking it...I doubt anyone here can understand Ukranian

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>Union
>Soviet
>Socialist
>Republics

>>992754
>right click
>translate this page

>>992763
>implying Google Translate is useful for anything more than a sentence long

>>992769
Its not really how long the text is but more which language is being translated.

>>992763
>>992769
Oh wait, never mind. The translation is actually pretty good.

>>992769
It will give you a vague idea of it, and most of it is tables and charts for how the food aid will be apportioned anyway.

Well it was much, MUCH shittier than in Czechoslovakia and Czechoslovakia was much shittier than the west, so yeah I imagine it was pretty bad.

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>union
>soviet
>socialist
>republics

>>992761
Union - federal.
Soviet - they were ruled by Soviets(councils?) once, but it ended little while after the revolution the best contender for >
Socialist - yep, pretty much
Republics - again - yes.

You're trying to push a meme very hard but it doesn't really apply here

>all these leftists in this thread still haven't read Animal Farm

>>992788
george orwell was a cia shill! Stalin dindu nuffin!

>>992788
>Animal Farm

>written by an anarchist
>who was never actually in the USSR
>and who supported Trotsky
>and presented a narrative meant to support Trotsky unconditionally

Animal Farm isn't credible even in anticommunist circles.

>>992584
>believing stale 80 year old memes

>>992796
>Orwell
>anarchist

Oh boy.

But honestly, democratic socialism, anarchism, syndicalism, trotskyism, marxism, leninism, stalinism, maoism, new left, IT'S ALL SHIT

>>992810
>GDPPC growth since 1922 higher than pre-war growth
>WAAH COMMUNISTS EVIL LOOK AT THE GRAPH

I've told you to stop posting this graph, I've posted you a quick analysis of it showing that assuming pre-war growth rate, USSR would overtook Russian Empire that didn't happened to suffer from World War, Civil war and loosing the richest parts of it by 1930's but you still insist on posting this meme. Are you dumb or what?

>>992405
It's because the collapse was disaster for Russians. They didn't in live the extremely brutal periods of 1914-1945.

>>992796
>an analogous version of the history accepted everywhere outside of vatniks and r/fullcommunism isn't credible

>>992820
>I'VE TOLD YOU TO STOP WHY WON'T YOU STOP WAAA

Because you, yes YOU personally, are a nobody.

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>Born and raised in Socialist Republic of Romania
>this thread

This must be how holocaust survivors feel when browsing /pol/

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Depends on the decade.

>>992826
Oh, please, Orwell unironically thinks that Trostky would have turned the USSR into a workers' paradise and saved the world. He is far more delusional than the vatniks.

>>992828
At least I can read graphs, unlike some poster ITT.

>>992796
>trotskyist anarchism

Lay off the weed

>>992835
Except in animal farm he's lenin groupie, trotsky serves as a guy who was no better from other pigs but got expelled so he sounds like he was cool and benevolent or something. You are suffering from serious mental deficit please don't post anymore.

>>992844
Just because Orwell didn't understand jack shit about Trotsky doesn't mean he didn't somehow like Trotsky while being an anarcho-cuck.

>>992831
Western communists need to be gassed.

>>992848
He was never an anarchist. You only base this on his Catalonia shenanigans when he considered anarchists to be the good guys, but he was at no point anarchist himself.

>>992831
Not my fault Romanians fail at everything so hard that they've failed to fail to do communism.

>>992860
>le gommienism was never truly implemented meme

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>commies

kek

>>992864
Nah anon, it was all a prank, you took it seriously, kinda like this Hoxha bunkerfreak idiot.

>>992872
One time, a Russian friend and I were looking at pictures of the early Warsaw Pact, and made up a conspiracy theory that Stalin picked them purely because they looked funny.

>>992894
Stalin was real madman

>>992788
Why is every single famous anti-communist work fiction? hmmmmm

>>992867
>here's my non-inflation adjusted graph based on averages not distribution, gommies btfo

>>992920
because Marx's writings are too

it's anecdotal but the only person I have ever met who lived in the USSR was a Ukrainian (called himself a Russian) who was full on commie and wanted the USSR to come back. But yeah its only one dude I guess.

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>>992352
only good commie country

but even its existence resulted in the deaths of thousands in the 90s, seeing the bloodiest war in europe since ww2

i think eastern ukraine will surpass what was seen in yugo though

>>992929
>distribution
>MUH EQUALITY

>>992920
A better question why is every pro-communist work in the fantasy genre.

>>992946

they also killed a lot of people in 1943 and 1945 trough to 48(there was also a purge of stalinists at that point), but nothing like the things going on in soviet union, not even close

>>992933
>>992992
Just bullshit like physiology and the trends observed in statistical economic data that the bourgeoisie themselves have a vested interest in have. :<

>>993040
Ok, Samantha. I'm sure all the boys at your weekly college communist meetings really believe in your message, and aren't just there to gawk at your body.

>>992352
>western USSRboos
Kill urselves

>>992976
Yes, everyone is happy and loaded in capitalist societies because one pharaoh has a lot of jewels under his bed.

But wait, that's a vulgar materialist sentiment, amirite.

>>993065
Just kill yourself already, Jesus Christ. You're the reason your parents are divorced.

>it's better to be equal in poverty than inequal in wealth

>>993065
>Yes, everyone is happy and loaded in capitalist societies because one pharaoh has a lot of jewels under his bed.
Unlike communist societies where everyone has nothing under his bed

>>993040
>don't agree with the data
>statistics are bourgeoise propaganda

Bourgeoise are to marxists like Jews are to /pol/. Literally a bogeyman.

>>993044
Tell me more about how all my nice benefits need to be cut so my boss won't feel oppressed, that'll really get you this pussy.

>>993118
>nice benefits

>implying us non-communists are insane like communists
>implying it's either no benefits or full benefits

Samantha, just take the nude pic already. You know you want to.

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>>993118
>thinking getting benefits is socialism
>not pointing out data on the Soviet Union instead of just pulling buzzwords out of your ass
FUCKING SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, GET OUT OF MY LEFT-MOVEMENT

>>993138
You're even worse.

>>992779
Isn't that Colonel Sanders?

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>>993101
yes, gooey relative terminology aside, it's better having the same degree of autonomy and power over everyone else than surrendering a greater measure of control over the means of your survival to some asshole to whom you are completely replaceable. I'm guessing you play Powerball religiously or something. Americans are so fucking classcucked they simultaneously think selfishness is the greatest thing and that all rich dude has their best interests in mind and inviolable moral prescriptions against working them like dogs for the lowest sum possible.

>>993115
Yes, because everyone knows that one tribe of sand people have the exclusive economic function of buying control of your life for 8 hours a day and using it to make you do shit you would rather not be doing during that time or else jeopardize any certainty you might have of survival, and it's not like /pol/ doesn't unironically think class collaboration is a positive.

>>993129
I'm sorry, manboys who think they can broker truce between the classes are as hot as coitus interruptus.

>>993138
You think the bourgeois are too good to be mercilessly taxed into oblivion wtf?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh9XN9z1lzo

Central Asians stil hold lenin and the soviets in high regard, they recieved a lot of good benefits Citizens had generous vacations, free flight trips and guartanteed work and home. Though when some few westerners visited what they had to say was that they were described as Petite bourgeoisie with little to no ambition other than marriage, house and family.

I could live with that, considering I really have a 'petty' ambition, which is to grow a big family.

>>993170
>I'm sorry, manboys who think they can broker truce between the classes are as hot as coitus interruptus.
Bby pls. I'll even become leftist for a pic.

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Was life in the concentration camps really AS BAD as it's portrayed in the west? My grandma keep insisting that all things considered, people generally lived happier and more fulfilling/satisfying lives under national socialist rule, at least in the urban camps.

>>993188
>that filename
>that post
>that satire
>those dubs
topkek

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>>993170
>You think the bourgeois are too good to be mercilessly taxed into oblivion wtf?
>she thinks you can "mercilessly tax into oblivion" the group in command of the state

>>993161
Why bring up sand people? In the extremely inequal US the poor person was better off than in relatively equal Ost Block countries.

>>993194
it doesn't turn into an apparatus for repressing them overnight.

>>993161
/pol/ unironically believes in equality within races. Racism is just updated egalitarianism.

>>992352
if you are from handful of people associated with establishment, its not that bad... otherwise... it was BAD

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>>993205
You can't convert it into one. You need to violently seize the state, and either destroy it, or transform it so dramatically that you can use its oppressive force against the bourgeoisie; however, the latter is unlikely, because the state machinery is designed not to do that, but instead to protect the bourgeoisie.

And you cannot seize it peacefully because it is designed to have its control maintained by the bourgeoisie precisely because the liberal democratic state itself IS a bourgeoisie construction, just as the feudal state was a construction of lords, vassals, and the other parties which made it up.

It's only anecdotal, but my mother and grandmother thought the USSR was awesome for years after they emigrated. I remember my grandmother told me she just suddenly had this epiphany about how awful it was one day while buying milk when the store played the radio over the speakers and just scrolled through stations. She just kind of had this pane of mental glass shatter and realised how soul-crushing it was by comparison.

My mother's came when we moved to Australia. She was working in a meat packing plant on a hot day when the machinery broke down, so the boss gave everyone a half day, sprung for beer and they went down to the beach to sit in lounge chairs, drink and have fun. She ran into the ocean so people wouldn't see her cry.

I think when it's all you know, the USSR isn't that bad. They didn't have complaints until they left, and never experienced human rights violations. Probably not as bad as the media portrays, but it would seem that way to those of us in the West.

>>993231
Beautiful.

>>993199
In that they could get free college if they signed up to kill brown people on the other side of the world who disagreed on economics or what?

>>993206
..and you're not much better if you believe in races, Mr. Victorian.

>>992352
As Russian living in Russia I can give you just this answer.
I have asked my father right now.
He said it wasn't as bad as they show in american movies and propaganda documentals. But from consumeristic society point of view it was definetely bad, he said.
My university professor had told us that USSR was in crisis since late 60s and Khrushchev idiotic reforms, which stopped soviet economy from evolving, but he is clear leftist. He also said that relative 'prosperity' during 70s was due to high oil prices and when they fall in 80s USSR was destroyed due to economy collapse, coz instead of further development of planned economy (computerization, networking and etc.) the Party leaders choose to rely on oil prices and instead of further world-wide andvancement of marxist ideas they choose to play 'superpower'.
Dunno if it answer your question, but that's all first-hand information I can give you.

>>993250
>he fell for the college meme

A plumber in the US earned more than a professor in East Germany.

>>993250
Races are like classes (proletariat, burgeoise etc). They don't objectively exist and are ultimately constructed by people, but we use the framework as a crutch because it's more convenient.

>>993273
How can your father be leftist after all of that?

>>992946
You should watch the movie Tito and Me

>>993300
Lol, I gave opinions of my father and one leftist proffesor at my university. They are two different people. Seems like I wasn't clear enough, struggling with english.

>>993280
That's not really telling me anything. Adjuncts make close to minimum wage there too and ff you think plumbing is somehow inherently non-lucrative anywhere as a point of comparison you're really not talking about reality.

>>993316
Nope, it was clear, anon just can't read.

>>993285
Pomo nonsense always comes to the to the rescue right on schedule.
One is ownership of specific forms of property within a legal framework which both an objective fact and a social construct (the two aren't mutally exclusive) whereas the other is an outdated and inconsistent grouping of certain objective physical traits during the colonial period.

>>992860
kek

>>992831
Holocaust survivor Paul Rassinier would agree with most of /pol/ about the Hocaust

>>993357
>class is objective

Go get gassed marxcuck. There's genetic distance between population sets, but setting the racial boundary between them is arbitrary, thus races are not objectively defined. The same with classes.

>pomo
Pomo, bobo, agitprop, ancom, comintern, comecon, holy fucking shit Orwell was right about you autists and your abbreviations.

>>993357
that isnt even pomo nonsense.
its just retardation

>>993378
>Orwell was right about you autists and your abbreviations.

That's because Orwell didn't realize that it's not about leftards, but about english speakers. You have acronyms for everything.

>>993392
>kolhoz, politburo, komsomol

Not English words.

>>993378
Except that this was in reference to bourgeoisie and proletariat as class (as opposed to the contemporary def. of lower, middle, upper which is an arbitrary boundary), which pertains to the status of property ownership, which is an objective legal category, you utter fuckwit.

Oh boy a quality of life in the USSR thread. I wonder if it's full of American teenagers that couldn't even find Moscow on a map talking about their feelz of how bad it all was while dismissing facts and personal first hand anecdotes from parents and grandparents as, ironically, "propaganda".

...yep.

>>993410
"Genetic distance between population sets exist" - objective statement

"FST 0.20 marks the boundary between black and white race" - arbitrary statement

...

"Rich people exist" - objective statement

"Ownership of the MoP marks the difference between the bourgeoise and the rest" - arbitrary statement

Had to explain to you like to a retard.

>>993429
Some of us ITT were actually born in socialist countries so it's pretty funny when some sheltered western cucks call us "indoctrinated Americans" and "victims of propaganda".

>>993435
This

>>992844
I don't think he was a Trot either.

>>993449
He was no Trotskyist, but he realized trotskyism is better than Stalinism which is just despotic tyranny. IIRC he was a democratic socialist, so kind of like a communist, except he believed socialism has to be implemented through democratic measure and not through revolution and tyranny.

Well, communist Romania for instance was not that bad for people that just wanted to work and have kids. The society as a whole was "safe" if you can say so.. there were hardly any minority problems, crime was quite low and people were indeed somehow happy.
However... If you ever disagreed with the party you were kinda screwed, made a Ceausescu joke? Prison for you buddy.
Had an abortion? Prison
Watched american films? Prison
Had a relative that ran away to the west? Expect to be watched by the party's police
Freedom of speech? No
Free to chose your own career? No, the state chose your career according to the college you finished. Considering you were 14 when you were distributed to a college, you were too young to know what you want to do. So, if you were sent at 14 to a college training sailors, you were a sailor and that was the life for you.

Had relatives that were rich before communism? No good job for you bro, you are an undesirable.

Ever talked about fleeing the country or capitalism in a good way? Bad luck, your friends might be collaborating with the secret police...

My point is: life might not be perfect now. But you are free to follow your own will, do your own things, talk whatever you want, watch and listen to whatever you want. Hell, you can even shittalk the government all you want, you wpuldn't be able to do that in communism.

About the economy: it was a fake economy and as a result it crumbled beyond repair. Competition is vital to an economy, and everybody having a guaranteed job meant that people did not compete to perform better so that they could get forward. Why do you think capitalist countries were so ahead compared to us? We were building 1950's cars in 1990... There's a lot to say.

USSR was technologically retarded, they were several decades behind the west at almost every point.

>but muh space

One exception, that was achievable through Russians getting their hands on German rocket scientists. The same as the US.

>>993496
>tfw all the memers that pretend the Holodomor didn't happen or wasn't Stalin's fault don't believe in Lysenkoism
fucking revisionists

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>>993435
>I was born in 1989 so I totally know the Eastern Bloc. You don't know the horror of those two years and my parents bitching about government bureaucrats (can you imagine!) like I do

If only there was some objective aggregate of people who actually grew up to adulthood in Soviet States' opinion on it. Some massive vote like expression of desire.

>>992352
>Was life in the USSR really AS BAD as it's portrayed in the west?

it was senpai, twice more dead than hitler caused say so

>My mom keep insisting that all things considered, people generally lived happier and more fulfilling/satisfying lives under socialist rule, at least in the urban regions.
thats because shes a dumd twat that has never seen anything besides ultra-shithole-tier and shithole-tier.

>>993628
You know that "preservation of the USSR" was about preserving the borders rather than about preserving socialism? Surely you can't be this stupid.

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>>993628
>I was born in the 90s in a western country, let me tell you about the eastern block and how good it was

>>993496
which is an improvement over tsarist Russia being several centuries behind the west desu.

>>993664
>who is Stolypin
>who is Witte

>>993639
You think people voting to preserve the USSR didn't expect the USSR to march on more or less the same as it had always existed in their lives? Seriously? Come on now.

In fairness it's even a kind of bullshit point because the majority of people naturally fear change and could never have seen the 90s coming the way it did. So even if 5 years later they decided they're glad the USSR died anyways despite their vote it wouldn't have been reflected in the referendum.

Still, I have never seen a 50+ year old Eastern European on 4chan who could actually with authority say how life was in the USSR. Every single time it's someone at most in their early 30s who would not be capable of remembering anything of substance trying to pass off a false sense of authority. Every. Time.

You assemble multiple sincere anecdotes like asking older people who don't lie on the internet to feel important and you get much more nostalgia - whether its honest or well reasoned or not. That's just the uncomfortable facts.

>>993688
The interesting part is that the CPRF is actually quite popular among the older generation.

>>993628
>places that were shitholes wanted to hold onto more successful countries to squeeze for money

I, for one, am shocked.

>>993686
>What is Illych's Bulb?

>>993688
>You think people voting to preserve the USSR didn't expect the USSR to march on more or less the same as it had always existed in their lives?

I don't just "think" that, I outright know that. Territorial integrity and economic system are two completely separate things, Russians and many non-Russian Soviets understood the USSR as their country, their empire, they didn't want to see it falling apart, regardless of its economic system.

Furthermore, you just have to look at election results to know whether people really want communism back.

1991 - overwhelming Yeltsin victory against the CPSU candidate
1996 - mid 90s were arguable THE shittiest period of modern Russian history so there was plenty of people around who hated Yeltsin, yet the communist Zyuganov still wasn't able to beat him
2000 - massive Putin victory
2004 - even bigger Putin victory
2008 - massive Medvedev victory
2012 - massive Putin victory

And that's ONLY Russia. You could look at other ex-communist states like Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania where communist parties are either completely marginal or outright banned.

>>993747
>believing the American propaganda that Putin is actually president
to cyka

>>993771
t. nazi

I'm from the UK, but for a year I shared an office with a guy from East Germany, who was 18 when the Berlin Wall came down. So we're not talking the USSR here, but he did live in the Bloc.

One day I wander in with a carton of pineapple juice and ask if he wants a glass. "No thanks", he said "I never developed a taste. No tropical fruit until the Wall came down." He went on to explain that the only tropical fruit they had regular access to were bananas from Cuba.

From working together and becoming good friends I learnt that he can speak a decent amount of Russian, was taught how to assemble a tractor engine at school and did work experience aged 12 in a factory. I'll never do it justice, but his story of working in a factory that made fake chocolate had me laughing so hard I could hardly draw breath. The way he described it - one guy pouring powder into a machine, another guy holding the sack and a third guy to watch them both - really did give you a sense that full employment was reliant on the existence of non-jobs in a planned economy.

His mother was a doctor so when they were informed on for having a colour television they were barely reprimanded. His uncle would smuggle Smurfs videos to their house when he would visit from the west. In terms of consumer goods, he said it was not a case of 'a fridge' or 'a radio', rather 'the fridge' or 'the radio' because there was simply no concept of alternative brands or models for anyone outside of the elites.

When the Wall came down the first Hollywood film shown at his local cinema was 'Dirty Dancing'. He watched it perhaps fifteen times in a week. People would exit the cinema and immediately rejoin the queue snaking around the block to see it again. As he put it, "this was the first time we saw people dancing and smiling and having fun on film. Just enjoying life, you know?"

>>992837
Apparently you can't.

>>993430
>Income level x marks the difference between rich and the rest
>somehow not an arbitrary statement

amazing.

>>993920
That's the exact opposite of what I said, illiterate cuck. There's no objective boundary between the rich and poor.

>>993935
Then "rich people" exist isn't an objective statement outside of one. the presence of a legal entity with regard to property, however, is an objective boundary.

>>994003
>marxists are actually this stupid

>>994003
It's not an objective boundary at all. My cock is the mean of production with all the semen I sell to your mom.

USSR was horrible, any state under socialism/communism always ends up being absolutely horrible.

Yes, USSR was utter dog shit.

>>994003
How about "variation exists between income in any specialized human society."

Now let's discuss how the entire concept of "means of production" is a nonexistent distinction, because education and labor are in the hands of private individuals, and everyone owns some in a capitalist system.

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>>992352

After Stalin died it probably wasn't as bad as the worst portrayals but generally yes. If you had any ambition in science, art or politics you were heavily restricted. Scientists were prevented from reading western journals in most cases.

Also I think the main image the west has of the USSR was lack of material goods. In the USSR per capita GDP doubled from 1940-1990, while in the west it increased by an order of magnitude. You don't have to be a Kardashian level money grubber to realize how much better life is with some basic conveniences that weren't available to most people in the USSR.

>>994007
>>994011
Possession of property in your name is an objective boundary. There's no arbitrary distinction between a single individual.

>>994043
>property

I own two buttons and a dildo, I'm a capitalist now.

>>992465

No, Stalin thought Poles and Ukranians were likely to be unloyal.

He also knew he needed grain from Ukraine to help industrialize Russia.

Primary sources show mass executions on the scale of the Nazi invasion of the USSR, and thousands of dossiers talking about execution quotas.

The starvation was quite intention. They spelled it out and it was there in the archives.

t. primary sources

>>992584

>implying it was only kulaks that were killed

When Ukranians resisted collectivization they were shot.

Grain requisitions were so high people began eating their seed grain, a sign of sheer desperation (then ate each other)

They had a "Polish operation" along side the kolack operation with designated death quotas for ethnic Poles because they feared they would support a Polish invasion.

It's literally Cultural Revolution or Nazi's in the east level shit.

Funny thing, they deported so many Ukrainians to the far east that in the 40's they began went into full panic mode because they thought the Japanese would liberate and arm them.

Of course, they also highly overestimated the Japanese army.

>>994020
except you can't express that variation outside of the same boundaries as before so...
Your liberal magical non-corporeal self is showing so hard here. Education and labour just aren't physical objects, you fucking goof.

>>992641

Native populations are declining in almost all rich nations.

Mali and Nigeria have exploding populations.

That doesn't mean the second is doing better.

Isn't the "owning a means of production" definition really outdated?

Literally everyone in the west owns a means of production

>>994053
Call the police to report them being stolen or vandalized and find out.

>>994096
Find out what? You are just as vague and incoherent as you are dumb.

>>992352
It was better than what came before or after

>>994102
Unless you're Ukrainian or have any money.

>>994080
>physical objects are the only thing that matters in economics

I'm not trying to be funny, but this is definitely a manifestation of autism.

Persistent developmental disorders render the sufferers unable, cognitively, to understand more abstract ideas.

This would really explain a lot about Marxist economic thought.

>>994107
>I'm not trying to be funny, but this is definitely a manifestation of marxism.

FTFY. Though autism and marxism are more or less synonyms.

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>>992408

>>994121
>Ukies
>Slavs

I thought Ivans thought they are Turks.

>>994066
So they intentionally starved themselves on purpose? Because you contradicted yourself by saying they needed that grain to industrialize. Apparently you think grain is a direct component for steel production. Those are some nice primary source you've got there too. I bet your allegations in post >>994077 comes from the same place and that it's holodomor.info.

>>994077
>Polish genocide

Source that shit

>>994107
Except that indistinct abstractions don't have a physiological relationship to human survival. If I'm the autist here your inability to distinguish between non-physical and physical entities makes you effectively a nonfunctional schizophrenic.

>>994189
Not him but:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_%281937%E2%80%9338%29

>>994217
>Except that indistinct abstractions don't have a physiological relationship to human survival

Like positions on the organ donor sheet, or a phone call from the governor on the day of your execution.

Just abstractions, nothing physical. Shouldn't matter, amirite.

AUTISM
U
T
I
S
M

Comecon here, not USSR, but I can tel you that Communism sucked donkey balls. It's not just the political killings, the torture, the midnight kidnappings, the paranoia, the seizing of private businesses and private property or the complete ostracization of "enemies of Socialism". The worst part was knowing that our country could do so much better, but we were completely paralyzed and we had to watch as the rest of the world ran circles around us in terms of progress.

Everyone was forced to pretend like we didn't know how bad we had it. Even with the Iron Curtain and all-encompassing censorship, most adults had a pretty good idea of how much our country was lagging behind, but no one dared talk about it.

>>992352
Yes, it was fucking terrible throughout.

>>994233
>Comecon
What?

>>992352

That USSR leader visited a US super market, saw that they actually had food and a large variety of it and internally renounced communism.

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>>994372
Not him but you never heard of Comecon really?

>>994377
I heard that story a lot, but is it real?

>>994355
This should be a sufficient answer for everyone.

I once had a (West) German ask me if we
>had it pretty good under Communism.
Why don't you ask a Jew if he enjoyed Kristallnacht, you fucking germ.

>>994232
Universal intake processes necessary to the perpetuation of the organism aren't equivalent to your selected circumstances within an administrative structure at all, but they're the same for you because you're the same retard who believes in a Lockean Midas touch and can't even disentangle elementary categories of things.

>>994409
>if I use enough big words, people won't make fun of my ideology for having no practical application
>"means of production" is somehow a biological fact but education and social status aren't

SPERG
P
E
R
G

>>994424
The practical application is to successfully and permanently eliminate class enemies, as it always has been.
Today Human societies including the necessary physical processes of the humans within said societies are sustained by the increase in production that results from division of labour in combination of machinery within the same setting. This has been done to reduce the unreliable role which education(skill) and social status had in previous modes of production.

>>994461
>class enemies

>fail to realize that rent seeking and productive labor are usually combined by any administrative caste
>remove the existing administrative caste of your own society
>destroy all of the social mechanisms in place to check abuse of power
>new administrative caste arises, with significantly less productive labor and significantly more rent seeking
>in your attempt to leap forward, you have successfully caused your entire society to regress to bronze age oriental despotism

Thank god for men like Pinochet and Suharto.

>>994461
>The practical application is to successfully and permanently eliminate class enemies, as it always has been.

Nice asspull axiom scro

There's no such thing as a Marxist with IQ over 120. They're all fucking retards.

>>992352
After WW II ?
No, it was generally good if you didn't care about politics.

Before WW II ? It was pretty bad.

Late 80s and early 90s ? Went back to bad.

Life between that was pretty good.

People who tell you otherwise are just brainwashed ex-soviet countries.

>>993188
underrated post

>>994470
>he actually wants to talk about rent-seeking.
k, fag, only I never once heard you bitch and moan about checks and balances during the millenia which the feudal landlords spent starving and abusing the peasantry. I'd imagine all that buried silver and rotting grain was worth so much more than all those the stupid dams and bridges :^)

>>994484
What a relief, it's been in my ass over a century.

http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471>994183

>>994189

See the bib from above.

>>992352
I was reading Solshenitzyn's The Gulag Archipelago the other day, and he described one event in which people clapped for a full forty minutes during a party function, and the first people to stop clapping were sent in for questioning, torture etc. This was just one of many common occurrences in Soviet Russia.

>>994578
Disgusting. An insecure, paranoid man. And somehow, [some] leftists have the gall to defend him.

>>994562
Is Timothy Snyder a good historian?

>>994597
No. Honestly, he's horrible.

>>994597

No but the cited Soviet documents speak for themselves.

Or Wiki it.

>>994578
It's amazing what a lil anti-communism can do for a fictionalized compendium of rumours

>>994604
>>994607
See, this is why I'm glad I asked beforehand. Google said he's a Yale historian so I was thinking he's good, but I had a sneaking suspicion. I'll still look into it though, thanks.

And to be clear, I'm not this guy>>994189

>>994593
Eh, the aforementioned book is pretty comprehensive and well-argued, and "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich" is also quite good. Just because he understandably became nostalgic for the Ancien, Christian Russia, that doesn't mean one should discount one of the most comprehensive historical documents in history.

>>994623
It's ridiculous how many of his sources are ukrainian nationalists, so take it with a grain.

>>994537
Why would I bitch about feudalism in a discussion about communism?

We aren't comparing communism to feudalism, we're comparing it to capitalism.

>>994624
I'm having a difficult time finding a pdf on libgen or bookzz, but I'll keep looking.

>>994615
He was one of the disappeared, he knows what he's talking about. Also, you really don't need to look too far for these types of stories, I mean just look at Rokossovsky. The man was arrested on trumped up charges, and thrown away by the state for years. He went through two mock executions and other indignities (including his family on the outside becoming pariahs just through association), just because he refused to sign a false statement. This doesn't sound like a functioning, good society.

>>994641
What are you looking for?

Just look at Venezuela. Life is really bad for the middle class, so they all are fleeing from the country and take selfies in the airport. When they arrive to another country they say shit about Venezuela like "no toilet paper lmao evil communists".

Most of it is true, but it's extremely exaggerated. Lots of news about Venezuela is blatant black propaganda, just look at its sources. There will always be anecdotes of people living extremely good while there will people telling you Chavez personally came to their homes and killed their pets.

So the same happened in the USSR. It was worse than Venezuela of course.

>>994630
If you're not talking about an administrative caste within the definition of the fucking term and it's your balefully nonequivalent nRx heuristic you should have kept your whore mouth closed in the first place or maybe tried to fudge it with more misappropriated terms like "cognitive dissonance" or "zero-sum".

One of my friends grew up in Socialist Poland in the 70s, 80s.

He says he prefers the Socialist system, but it need democratic representation and transparency to deal with the widespread corruption.

He said it wasn't actually that different from living in the west, they did whatever the fuck they want, he talked about the "punk"/Rave parties they would hold in forests and basically most of your social needs were taken care of. He said there were programs in system that were fantastic and should be emulated in the west, like public entertainment venues in every living area where you can go down, hook into a sound system and play music or have a party or whatever.

On oppression, he said in the early 1980s there was a massive crackdown on protesters or something took place under threat of Russian intervention, that was the only time he was like "What the fuck" and ever felt the presence of the Government bearing on his life.

That being said, he said he travelled around Socialst countries a lot. He said East Germany was a totalitarian shithole similar to North Korea and Russia was also totalitarian. Hungary was basically indistinguishable from any other western developed country in the world at the time as well apparently according to him.

>>994660
Also, same thing happened in Chile. People will say "nothing happened, I was living well and I went shopping all weekends". It's a matter of perspective actually.

>>993747
>yet the communist Zyuganov still wasn't able to beat him

They did, in 1996. Yeltsin with the help of the United States rigged the votes though.

>>992646

>what is a dictatorship of the proletariat

>>994578
>and the first people to stop clapping were sent in for questioning, torture etc

Is this really true?

Stalin apparently fucking hated all the clapping shit. You see him visibly get pissed off in footage at it when he's trying to speak.

>>994578
Honestly that's way too much shit, just like the nazi lamps made of human skin. We get it, life was horrible, but it wasn't hell on earth.

>>994578
>Solshenitzyn's The Gulag Archipelago

>Basing your views on the USSR by a crazy as shit ultra-orthodox far-right wing propagandist.

>>994681
where are the proofs cyka

>>994702
>>Basing your views on the USSR by a crazy as shit ultra-orthodox far-right wing propagandist.

Was he far rightist? He was obviously anti authoritarian and I remember reading a text where he complained about progressive leftists.

>>994710
but he didn't like Stalin so he was megaHitler

>>994623

He's not bad on citations but the book is such a litany of atrocities you lose any sense of scope. He could correct this if he was a better writer.

>>994655
Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin

>>994681
>being this much of a conspiratard

back to /pol/

>>994734
nigga please
recommend me some solshtenzsizsiyhin where he explain his political ideology and thinking

>>994710
He was basically the same shit as Dostoyevsky, extremely reactionary, conservative and anti-semetic. In essence, the good guy.

>>994688
This wasn't a large scale event, this was just a simple, small scale events. The kind of event in which mid-level party members and the occasional farmer would show up. So in that case, your average cadre might get a couple delusions when given power, and in this case he can act on them.

>>994691
>>994702
>>994615
>>994593

The Gulag Archipelago is most useful as an analytical history of the evolution of the secret police, the creation of a totalitarian state, and a comprehensive explanation of how the laws developed. It is not just a simple litany of crimes carried out by the state, as such a reduction ignores the fact that each crime is used as an example in individual chapters that go into explaining Soviet Russia from different angles.

>>994752
I'll look it up. Thanks m8

>>994855
Hurry anon.

>>993231
I have a few of these stories.

My mother was raised in a small farming village where people didn't get anything past a 4th grade education. She didn't want to live like her parents, so she struggled really hard to get premiums and scholar awards. She was one of the few people in her town to go to middle school, where she also got premiums and scholarship awards. Only problem was that she'd get second or third place compared to a few students who were children of high ranking communist party members. At first she protested but soon realized just how the system worked. You needed to be the crotchfruit of high ranking party members for awards.

My grandmother kept all her workbooks and scholarship awards. Mum was a literal 10/10 student (thats the ranking they used) across all disciplines. She only struggled with math where she got 9/10 ONCE in 3rd grade. Everything else was spotless. For 12 years.

At university level she lived in dormitories that had cracked windows and no heating. This was the best law school in Russia that was walking distance to the Kremlin.

Her philosophy professors eschewed communist values and you 'were invited' to ask questions, but doing so got you a visit from the secret police later that night.
She said it was very east to pinpoint who the agents in the class were: they never got picked on to answer questions and always looked like general dumbasses. There was always at least 1-2 in every class.

There was a very big market of contraband that got smuggled into the country since a lot of necessities weren't available to the public.
Most of what my mom got were music and books since party censorship was brutal. Anything that could be remotely interpreted as being anti-state got removed.

She still has part of her library collection at her grandparents'. All her propaganda books eschew atheism and the deconstruction of familial values.

Everyone treated it as bullshit.

>>994994
Fascinating stuff anon. Keep it coming.

>>994994
>Her philosophy professors eschewed communist values
> All her propaganda books eschew atheism and the deconstruction of familial values.
do you mean they avoided them, or did you mean 'espouse'?

>>995047
espouse

my bad.

>>994578
Reminds you of the emperors in Shinsekai Yori

Best way to compare standard of living between countries is emigration vs immigration. There were people leaving the western powers to go to the USSR, but they were insignificant compared to people fleeing the USSR to go to Western Europe. Then they had to build a wall to keep people in Berlin from escaping. Yeah. Western Powers were better. Soviets can suck it.

>>995219
Never thought of this metric before. How did you develop this idea?

>>994994
>Her philosophy professors eschewed communist values and you 'were invited' to ask questions, but doing so got you a visit from the secret police later that night.
>She said it was very east to pinpoint who the agents in the class were: they never got picked on to answer questions and always looked like general dumbasses. There was always at least 1-2 in every class.

Does this not accurately describe the situation with feminism in today's universities?

>>994994
As someone who grew up in the Soviet Union that is the most hilarious bullshit I have ever heard

>>995228
Work with two professors as an undergraduate. Trying to find a way to explain why so many students from Qatar (which has a much higher GDP per head) decided to study in the USA and live here. The conclusion is that social values are valued more highly that many material ones, and they're willing to not live a life of obscene luxury in order to live in a society with the values they want. One student came from a millionaire family in Qatar but decided to live here to work at a $50K starting job in engineering. He said it was because he felt we were a more free society and that he felt safer here.

It's by no means a perfect metric. But it's a better way of comparing where people want to live.

>>995243
t. Igor Guttman

>>992352
I was born in communist Yugoslavia in 1989, I don't care how bad socialism was, lving in a war zone is far worse. We should have just waited to collapse or even fix our ethnic problems.

But from what I remember from context alone, Yugoslavia seemed to be kinda like the West with slightly more cuckolding and shittier houses.

Yugo nostalgia is the stupidest shit ever, honestly. The entire country was pumped full of western loans because they were a socialist country opposed to the USSR. Then USSR went poof, western gibsmedats ended and Yugoslavia collapsed. Unsustainable shit.

>>995247
It's kind of like the physics of geography. What do you study?

Can we all agree that no matter how decent the USSR was, the US was a better place to live for the most part?

I mean take even the treatment of minorities. In the US, you have Jim Crowe and lynchings. In the USSR you have man-made genocidal famines.

My parents always swore me off when ever I would advocate for Leftist policies, and I never know why. I think unconsciously they have memories of these kinds of things.

>>995349
Washington University of Saint Louis.

>>994770
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2107565,00.html
http://vote.caltech.edu/sites/default/files/vtp_wp63.pdf

So conspiratard.

>>995363
Of course, but comparing the US to the USSR is completely disingenuous.

Completely different cultures, completely different historical forces, completely different values, completely different power difference (The USSR never, ever came close to the US in terms of power projection). The US has never had a major war on it's soil, Russia and Eastern Europe was basically wiped off the face of the earth twice in a 50 year period.

It's like people comparing fucking Cuba or Venezuela to the US, instead of comparing them to countries in their own region. It's so disingenuous to expect these countries to even ever be able to compete with the power and wealth the West started off with largely through colonial empires.

>>995237
Kinda, but you're exaggerating. And I don't know how "commie agents" applies to feminism.

>>995410
I'm implying that liberal democracy would have been better than communist revolution. I don't know any convenient opportunity for this to have happened, and I agree with you that it is a moot point, but I get a bad aftertaste from the conclusion that there are absolutely no similarities between America and Russia in terms of historical development.

>>995247
>Trying to find a way to explain why so many students from Qatar
"Many" is relative, no?

>>995410
I think it makes sense to compare them. They practically agreed to that, when they got into the Cold War which was ideological dick measuring.

>>995410
>Russia was wiped off the face of the earth

Hyperboles ahoy!

>>995410
>The US has never had a major war on it's soil

Revolutionary war? War of 1812? Civil War? I'm not even American but this shit about America never experiencing a war is a fucking meme.

>>995441
Russia would have never had "Liberal Democracy" like it doesn't now. Eastern Europe holds vastly different values than Western Europe. There is more to "Liberal democracy" than just voting for different parties, there is a strong cultural aspect to it as well that sadly only exists mainly in Western Europe and "Western Countries" like Australia, NZ, Canada and the US. This includes transparency in institutions, trust institutions by the public, trust in politicans, politicans being able to be held to account etc etc.

For example, South Korea is a "Democracy" but it's also incredibly authoritarian, parties get banned, protesters get disappeared and the entire country is controlled by a handful of Oligarchs called the "Chaebols", Japan, the same thing (With less outright oppression), Eastern Europe, very similar, India, the same, Pakistan, the same, Mexico, Columbia, Venezuela, Brazil etc etc all the same.

The sad thing is, the west is losing, As Finance Capital completely dominates the economy and separates the economic and political sphere, deregulating everything and causing it's own crises, the Government has been forced to take authoritarian responses not to the finance sector, but to critics of the finance sector, which is why we've seen widespread crackdown on protests, surveillance laws etc etc .

I'm not kidding when I say that by 2050 I believe Liberal democracy will no longer exist in the west, the west will have taken the model of Lee Kwan Yew and the rest of the world. A fake democracy controlled entirely by oligarchs through extreme authoritarianism.

As soon as the EU collapses (and it will) we are going to see a quick descent into the abyss.

>>995443
True. We had around 10 students in one section from that country. 8 were committed to stay in the USA, 1 wanted to go back home, and one was unsure.

>>995476
>Eastern Europe holds vastly different values than Western Europe.

Russia =/= all of Eastern Europe. Czechoslovakia was an industrialized, democratic country with 1000+ years of belonging to the western (German and Catholic) cultural sphere, for example.

>>995476
How did you develop this line of thought?

>>995450
No it literally doesn't.

>They practically agreed to that, when they got into the Cold War which was ideological dick measuring.

The Soviets didn't. They always were trying to play "catch up" to the west, this is the major drive behind all Soviet projects "We will compete with the west with CORN!" for example.

The US is the most powerful country on earth, essentially untouched by major conflict, more developed than the most developed european nations by a mile.

How is ANYONE supposed to compete with the US?

I'm not even saying the USSR was a good place to live, I sure as fuck wouldn't want to live there. But comparing the USSR to the US is completely disingenuous from a material and cultural standpoint.

Saudi Arabia is rich as fuck, I sure as fuck don't want to live there. Why? Because it's values I don't agree with. The same I agree with the values of a more liberal society than a Stalinist one despite being a Socialist.

>>995490
Through listening to numerous debates, lectures etc on the development and future of the eurosphere.

Almost everyone agrees that once the EU collapses we are going to see a massive rise of Fascism in European nations as they retreat into reactionary nationalism.

Even conservative politicians are talking about how they've completely lost the power to act against finance capital and the only hope to even begin to regulate it anymore is widespread international agreements (which will never happen).

>>995476
>I'm not kidding when I say that by 2050 I believe Liberal democracy will no longer exist in the west, the west will have taken the model of Lee Kwan Yew and the rest of the world. A fake democracy controlled entirely by oligarchs through extreme authoritarianism.
T b h, I think you're right. But I have [some] hope that we're too aware for that to happen.

>>995507
Can you show me where to get started researching this?

>>995243
please do elaborate tovarisch

>>995482
Yeah, that makes sense. Btw, do you know anything about similar research done with Pakistani immigrants? I sort of have a personal interest.

>>995524
Sadly no.

>>995507
What are your thoughts on Brexit and Nexit? And also the refugee crisis?

>>995527
Ah, ok. Thanks anyway.

>>995507
>Fascism
>Reactionary nationalism

I feel like the soviet union, tho deffinatly a rough place for sure, gets a bit unfairly maligned, or is at least denied a lot of context

The Tsars were awful and doing away with them was probobly for the best

Russia lagged behind much of europe and the west and the soviets inherited a monumental task transforming a nation of illiterate serfs into a functioning modern industrial state

The west did not help by supporting the white russians in the civil war and attempting to smother the ussr in its cradle

The soviet union did a lions share of work in endig WWII, losing a lot of life and infrastructure, and the reward for this was a cold war and a policy of encirclement

The western states which so put down the USSR were themselves guilty of abuses in vast collonial empires, perpetrators of their own genocides, often deeply racist

I like to wonder what had happened had the USSR not been met with so much hostility at its birth and post WWII

>>995517
Lots of stuff out there at the moment thanks to the Panama papers and the Unaoil scandals that hit in the past weeks.

For conservative viewpoints, I like Jessie Norman who was the former UK Treasurer.
http://www.jessenorman.com/

For EU viewpoints, DiEM255 are the go to people at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjxAArOkoA0

Here is a great debate on the EU with Yanis Varofakis vs Slavoj Zizek with Julian Assange, and Sreko Horvat.

>>995531
Collapse of the EU will be the biggest disaster of the 21st century, even if the UK leaves, it will still be sucked into the black hole that will be the implosion of Europe and the biggest economic crises the world has ever seen. On top of that through a retreat into nationalism and a rejection of cosmopolitan liberalism, we will see a rise in Fascism once again in Europe, leading to possibly another world war.

Note: I'm anti-EU, I think the EU organization itself is a disgusting, oligarchical farce, but the alternative is worse.

On Refugees, the west created the issue with old Cold War warriors trying to overthrow every Russian aligned Middle Eastern Secular Government, so we have to deal with it.

>>995441
how long did it take for america to achieve liberal democracy?untill the 1820s non peoperty owners couldnt vote, women couldnt vote untill the 20s and blacks didnt have full and protected voting rights till the 60s

untill the 1900s the government was elected by less than 20 percent of the population

slavery and legal segrigation of blacks was maintained for a little over 200 years

womens rights took about 200 years

labour rights and protections happened within the last century

the ussr achienved alot within its very short life as a state, especialy when you consider how comparitivley behind it was politicaly and economicaly

liberal democracy would have taken a looong time to develop in russia, and making the leap from surfdom to liberal democracy would have been almost imposible, and yet they did get quite far from where they started development wise

>>995573
Thanks Anon. I'll check it all out and start a thread about my conclusions when I'm done.

File: image.png (172KB, 300x384px) Image search: [Google]

172KB, 300x384px

>>992527
>'guize, this thread is being anti-communist'
>posting on 4chan

Where do you think you are, m8??

>>995519
In the Soviet Union there was a big emphasis on education of children if for some reason a child stopped showing up to school after the 4th grade the school would ask the local cops to find out why. If there was no medical reasons on why they couldn't come to school there is a strong probability that the child would be moved to the foster system and parents would get jail time. Now for prestigious universities like MGYU there is usually 1000 applicants or more for every space and it was common to apply 3 or 4 years in a row because you tended to get better results on the entry exams since you have done them before. Secret police in the class and coming to your house for asking questions is just fucking retarded.

>>995765
>In the Soviet Union there was a big emphasis on education of children if for some reason a child stopped showing up to school after the 4th grade the school would ask the local cops to find out why

Unless of course you lived in a small village in bumfuck nowhere where you were forced to start working in farming cooperatives.

>Secret police in the class and coming to your house for asking questions is just fucking retarded.

I will gladly tell her that her experiences didn't exist. For what it's worth she did tell me that she failed to get into philosophy twice before applying for law and passing the exam.

>>995859
She obviously didn't live in the bumfuck nowhere if she went to the MGYU. Now I am not saying she didn't live on a collective farm but it would have to have been in the Moscow region if she went to the Moscow university and that entire region had people following the rules to the letter. And no her experience did not exist the cops had more important things to do than threatening students for asking questions in fucking class

>>996001
By The way I can go On
>At university level she lived in dormitories that had cracked windows and no heating. This was the best law school in Russia that was walking distance to the Kremlin.

Let me tell you a story about when I was growing up in the entrance hall of the commieblock that I lived in someone started breaking the Light Bulb at first they changed it everyday eventually they stopped because it kept getting broken either the same or the next day but guess what it wasn't the soviet union's fault that the the was no light in the entrance hall it was some asshole same as with the window in your moms dorm. Also they don't build buildings in Moscow without heating because that would be retarded but its all controlled at the water heating plant because it is radiator heating and they only turn it on for the winter usually a little late but sometime early.

>>992352
If you lived in Russia, it was shit.
If you lived in Eastern Europe, it was quite decent.

>>996163
Says fucking who?
It was shit and you're shit.

Animal products consumption killed the soviet union, look at the policy towards meat and imported grains feeds in the mid to late soviet period.

>>992587
>socialism
>socialist

Everybody had a job, and faggots were sent to jails.

>>997068
A """job""" you mean. It was a massive slackfest.