What do atheists think of Jesus? I can understand why you might

>>980675
Are you asking from a historical perspective or a theological perspective? Because there is a difference.

The theists on this board have already rejected the historical Jesus.

>>980675
I'm not atheist, I'm nominally Jewish, so my perspective might be different.

I haven't really read the Gospels or anything, so I'm not a Jesus expert. I don't have a strong opinion on him either way. There are a few parts of his teachings that I like, though. I feel like a lot of the things that he says about the Old Law make a lot of sense.

I'm a lot less sure about the "being literally god" parts.

There's essentially nothing known about the historical Jesus

>>980675
I am a former Christian. Now an athiest. I love Jesus. I love his teaches and the wisdom (sometimes) preached in the bible. The parables are my favorite.

>>980686
Let's consider, for the sake of discussion, that the Gospels are an accurate depiction of the real life Jesus' character and teachings.

>>980675
I have no opinion on a figure about whom almost nothing is known. The character from the bible I find to be a bit of a cock, but mostly a harmless one

>>980697
At least you know He taught the Law. That's better than many Christians.

>>980697
You should read the gospels. They are interesting as fuck. Well at least Matthew, Mark, and some of Luke is. John is retarded as fuck and total fanboy shit (honest scholars and theologians will agree)

>>980699
There's dozens of things you could know about Jesus from extra-biblical sources.

>>980705
>I am a former Christian

>"I used to be a butterfly", said the caterpillar.

>>980718
You sound dumb as fuck.

>>980713
John showed the eagle facet of Jesus' face; the Son of God.

The other three wrote of different facets to different audiences. I prefer Luke, so I guess I'm partial to the Greeks.

>>980722
I still can't hear you.

>>980714
None of them particularly interesting. Do I like a person who was crucified? No idea.

>>980675
Depends. I'm not really an Atheist but I am non-religious and I completely reject religions such as Christianity.

As someone else pointed out, many Christians don't believe in what we know, and can reasonably infer about the historical Jesus.
So I'll answer to both the common/ religious view of Jesus and the historic one.

So jesus as the messiah/ son of God obviously is a paragon of human goodness/ kindness, it would be stupidly edgy to have a problem with that guy, in whatever form he comes, as a buddha, as krishna, or any other various religions with similar "son of god" heroes.

Now the real Jesus? Referred to Christus by the Romans, was probably an amazingly charismatic man, very intelligent, with a perspective of the world that most people in that time were too short-sighted to come up with themselves. I believe everything he did was meant to help his people in a the most positive way, without inciting violence or rebellion against the Romans.

Great guy

>>980730
Most people wouldn't, as it was a horrific sort of execution meant to degrade and humiliate, as well as kill. Slowly.

>>980725
You sound like a muslim, waiting for the poor sad atheist to "revert" back allah

>>980737
>Great guy

Yup.

>>980741
What's wrong with my computer? I still can't hear you!

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>>980707
In that case, he has some good universal teachings, however most of his teachings a limited to his space, time, and culture.

Love the poor is a great idea, and indeed, I wish more Christians were like their Christ, more meek. Indeed, you see a lot of Christians driving around in BMWs. There does indeed seem to be a discrepancy between Christ's teachings and his 21st followers, but whatever, that is for them to work out.

Back to Christ. Again, he has some great universal teaching, but I have found the Buddha and Lao Tzu have even more universal teachings.

I think it's advantageous to pick and choose the best from each religion, but you need somewhat of a pluralistic mental filter for that, I wouldn't recommend this approach for the truly dogmatic.

>>980713
I bought a study bible (NIV) a while ago and plan on reading it after I graduate college, when I have more time for fun reading. The only thing I've only read from the New Testament is Revelations (for the memes), plus some important bits and pieces from the other sections.

>>980748
I don't think either the buddha or Lao Tzu would appreciate your calling them religious leaders.

He's an interesting fictive character.

A guy who claimed he was God, subsequently killed by his own people for his hubris, and then his followers pulled of the greatest farce in history.

Perhaps you could commend him for creating a following of fiercely loyal people who'd spread "his" message.

I personally view him as a failure though. A man who died at the cross before he was able to do anything of note.

>>980749
Wish you would have asked first. It's a terrible translation, and the favorite for satan worshipers.

>>980757
Er, you need to scroll ahead three days after the crucifixion...

>>980757
>A man who died at the cross before he was able to do anything of note.

THE MAN DEFEATED DEATH.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

HE LITERALLY DEFEATED DEATH.

Oops, there I go again.

>>980757
Jesus did not claim divinity. That is the teaching and interpolation of the church. The Old Testament is clear that God is one. There cannot be a trinity.

Honestly there probably isn't even a god.

>>980761
>>980765

Hope you guys are being sarcastic. But for some fucking reason 4chan has started to attract unironic christians in the last few years.

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>>980718
>you can't choose to stop believing/lose faith

>>980752
I'm sure they wouldn't, but they both fit the definition of religious leaders according to sociology.

>>980758
I did ask first, just not you. What would you have recommended?

(BTW, how do Christians feel about the OJB? I've always found it really beautiful)

>>980675
A champion of outdated slave morality. If you try to live in accordance with Jesus' teachings in modern society you will be relentlessly fucked in the ass. If you look to him for emotional or existential comfort you might as well be praying to Santa.

>>980780
Also, I lied, it's the ESV.

>>980765
Prove it. Everything of note was done by his followers. Paul of Tarsus is the true hero of christianity

>>980771
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Father is God.
Son is God.
Spirit is God.
There is One God.

One, threefold God. You have a perspective problem; you need to take God's perspective on His nature. He is One God.

Jesus claimed divinity, expressly, and was killed for it.

>>980773
It's a sign that Christianity is becoming more and more marginalized. Atheists used to be this group on 4chan, now that shit is changing, Christians are finding themselves here. It's a weird cycle. The marginalized find their way to places where they can communicate freely without the social repercussions in their real lives. Christians are the new marginalized.

>>980773
Jesus literally defeated death.

Literally.

Jesus v Death, Jesus wins.

>>980804
God not dying isnt very impressive

>>980804
ok Christboy, we get it, you hold that bible up high, it's all that matters.

>>980775

One of two things is true. You were never a Christian, and are not one now, or you became a Christian, and are one now, even though you say you're not due to some crisis of faith/doubt.

Becoming a Christian is a permanent transformation from a spiritually dead human being into an eternally living new creation in Christ Jesus.

You can't untransform any more than a butterfly can untransform back into a caterpillar.

>>980776
Not really, no. Nothing divine about them at all. Philosophers, really.

>>980825
I'm not going to give you a lecture on sociological methods and theory, go take a Sociology class.

>>980820
where is the biblical support for this ideology

>>980820
Hahahaha

>>980780
I prefer the New KJV, the ESV is nice, the KJV is great if you can handle ye olde English.

>>980793
Oh, good, I like the ESV.

>>980838
They are leaders of systems of thought generally categorized as religions, i.e religious leaders

>>980798
He rose from the dead.

Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.”

1 Corinthians 15:55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

>>980816

Think about that for a second. Think about what it took for God to die.

>>980818

Life is all that matters, dead man. Life. And life more abundantly.

>>980838
How about I just flush $50 down the toilet and say I did?

>>980802
>John
>written 200 years after the death of Jesus
>Contradicts Matthew and Mark's endings
>Literally a fanfiction

>>980820
Lmao im not the other anon

What i think you're saying is true, but only in the eyes of the Christian dogma.

He is not the Messiah ben David, and you cannot refute that. He did not abolish the old law, in fact he preached against the abolishment of the old law.

>>980840
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

John 10
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

>>980859
John was an adult in 32 AD, so he probably wasn't around in 232 AD.....

There are no contradictions, only your ignorance.

>>980873
If it's true in Christ, it's true everywhere.

You know we're all Anonymous, yes?

>>980853
I said prove it, not point me to a storybook saying he did it

>>980859
Fuck off the whole new testament was written within 70 years of jesus death

>>980880
>he thinks John is John the Baptist


Holy shit I'm dying

>>980874
He is the Messiah. There is only one. This fiction that there must be two, one after David and one after Joseph, is false.

It is based on the false predicate that no man can both lay down his life for his brothers, and establish an eternal kingdom at the same time.

Jesus is doing just that. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is YHWH.

>>980883
Then why can't Paul cite these gospels?

>>980883
Everything properly in the Word of God is true.

That's your proof.

Revealed knowledge from God, Who never lies, and is never wrong, and Who knows everything.

>>980880
Anon, which john are you talking about? You'd better stop

>>980885
John the beloved apostle was an adult in 32 AD, so probably wasn't alive in 232 AD.

Want to try again, or just lick your wounds?

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>>980894
>mfw we know more about their religion then they do

>>980894
John the beloved apostle, who wrote the Gospel according to John.

And the Revelation.

And John 1, 2 and 3.

You atheists don't know dick about Christianity.

>>980899
>mfw you don't.

>>980892
Maybe he hadnt read them? The bible wasnt collated until much later

>>980893
Prove or at least justify it

>>980897
>>980907
All modern theologians know that John was not written by John the apostle. You sound dumb.

>>980907
Lol none of the gospels are authored by people who were there

>>980911
>Paul couldn't cite the gospels because he hadn't read them
>Not because they didn't exist at the time of Paul

Have you not read any of Pauls letters? Why the fuck would he not read them LET ALONE KNOW ABOUT THEM.

Lol

>>980899
>[Carrier] claims that he was in an “open marriage” and engaging in polyamorous relationships.
Anyways, I don't think you know who you're talking to. I'm just trying to keep him from making a fool out of himself in a bait thread.

>>980920
Fair enough.

Carrier isn't right 100% of the time but he brings interesting thesis to the table.

He's overrated.

>>980918
Ah no you're right they were all written after he died

>>980909
>doesn't have a face
Exactly.

>>980938
>>980918
What was your point though?

>>980941
That the gospels were not written during the times of Jesus but many, many years after his death. If Paul didn't even fucking know about them then they didn't exist at that time (around 70 AD)

Mark was written first (if not then the Q was written first), then Matthew, then Luke, then John

All modern theologians agree John was written way later than the first 3

>>980858
lowbrow

>>980675
>What do atheists think of Jesus?
We don't know a whole load about him but the bible paints a good picture. If the bible represents his teachings accurately then I approve of his over all message. It could be that he was just a manipulative fuck like modern cult leaders though, idk.

Over all I'd say I'm positive.

>I can understand why you might hate His followers,
I don't really hate anyone. I do wish we could shake the negative legacy of christianity but it could have been a lot worse. We could have been muslims for example. I would have liked for European local paganisms to have survived purely for reasons of artistic culture, mythology, literature, etc. though that was already being swallowed up by Sol Invictus and other random cults so I think it would have been lost anyways.

>lots of terrible things were done in His name
I'm only butthurt about Abramics' obsession with blasphemy, idolatry, etc. a lot of culture was lost because of autism. We're never getting those mayan codices back.

>>980820
wew

>>980675

Are you seriously implying enough information exists to trace "Jesus" back to a specific person with a specific message? You don't really think the Gospels are accurate renditions of what he (if he existed) taught, do you?

>>980675
Honestly, his overall message I find rather bland. The written narrative behind it all is what makes it compelling.

>>980675
Pretty influential guy who may have said some questionable things. The love and tolerance stuff, cool. The supernatural stuff, not cool. Virgin birth, resurrection, and miracles didn't happen. Not much else to say, really.

>>980893
>Everything properly in the
Please get a trip. I know it's you every time, it would make things easier.

>What do atheists think of Jesus?

Depends on which Jesus you're talking about. Biblical Jesus is obviously for the most part in invention by Paul, whereas historical Jesus was probably just your average apocalyptic Jewish teacher in the vain of the Essene doctrine.

Historical Jesus was really just a product of the place and time he lived in. All things considered, h doesn't even play the biggest role in Christianity, it's really Paul who plays the biggest role in Christianity, with Jesus just being a mouthpiece

>>983170

Ehh, I doubt a historic Jesus was wholly essenic. The focus on intermingling with the poor, the outcast, the diseased, the destitute, and trying to help them was pretty diametrically opposed to what we know about Essenic practices (which is admittedly very little)

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>>980675
Imitate Jesus and Socrates

>>980780
Dont listen to them, NRSV is the only right answer.

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>>980675
>jewish
>pacifist
>commie
>reviled materialism

I'm not a fan. Iscariot, however, I can respect. Poor guy just wanted to make Judea great again.

>>980912
>>980915

Bart Ehrman is not "every modern theologist", and he's wrong.

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>>980838

>sociology

>>983301

>le Jesus was a socialist meme

Fuck that bullshit, socialism was invented by Karl Marx in the 19th century.

Jesus didn't call for any workers revolution. He wasn't a materialist, obviously. I'm not even Christian and I still think the "Jesus=socialist" is full of shit.

Jesus believed in individual charity, giving to the poor is not a socialist invention you Marxist moron.

>>980675

Why should an atheist think about Jesus?

>>983333
Quads confirm truth.

Daily Reminder Jesus is a Monarchist.

>>983352
It's interesting why everyone thinks about Jesus. Why everyone wants a part of Jesus. Why everyone wants to claim Jesus as their own. Why people have really zero reasons not to love Jesus.

It's interesting to wonder why that is.

>>980675
As mentioned, depends on which Hey-Zeus you speak of.

"Historical" Jesus, if there was one, seems to have more or less been a charismatic leader of a Semetic doomsday cult who got crucified for being a pain in the ass. Might have been a fun guy, I dunno.

"Biblical" Jesus, sans miracles, seems like an a'ight guy with decent lessons for how people can have nice things. Got a raw deal in life and death, crucified for challenging authority and now rolling in his grave over what his teachings have become.

"Story" Jesus, miracles and all, makes for an interesting set of narratives. But again, people get all bent over which 'story' is the 'truth' rather than exploring alternative interpretations as in "The Last Temptation of Christ".

>>983372
>and now rolling in his grave

I can relieve you of the burden of thinking this is true.

>>983379
>Jesus sans-miracles didn't die
>Literal resurrection isn't miraculous

Y'see, this is what I'm talking about. Way to get your panties in a bunch over nothing and say something incredibly silly.

>>980675
> What do atheists think of Jesus? I can understand why you might hate His followers, lots of terrible things were done in His name, but, does anyone dislike the actual dude?
"If God exists, he doesn't oppose us; If he doesn't exist, we have no need for him." (c) IVS

I.e. there are ethical principles I try to follow regardless of Jesus. As for the actual dude I don't really have an opinion.


>>983333
> Fuck that bullshit, socialism was invented by Karl Marx in the 19th century.
Marxism, not socialism.

Socialism existed before Marx and came to being as a reaction against capitalism (i.e. social consequences of unmanaged industrialization). Though, you might claim Luddites to be first proper Socialists.

>>983390
Sorry. I just wanted you to know that He is alive.

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>>980675

If not the first Anal Birth, certainly the most famous and influential.

Strongly negative about this, butt-babies should be smothered at birth.

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>>980854
JEWS

/pol/ WAS RIGHT /pol/ IS ALWAYS RIGHT

>>980893
>Christcucks still using this shit tier circular reasoning

>>980675
Historical Jesus sounds like an okay guy. I wish christcucks would behave more like him.

>>983529
So do we. It's just not possible.

>>983534

Doesn't sound that hard to be a homeless itenerant preacher, railing against an collaborationist government.

Granted, you have to dodge the popo, but there's risks in any profession.

Jesus was cool.
Paul was a cunt.

Jesus from the Bible without the supernatural elements is a pretty interesting character

Jesus as the one and only Son of God doesnt do it for me

there is just nothing poignant about the crucifixion if he just fucking gets up and walks it off three days later. thats what turns it from a brave man dying for his beliefs into Siegfried and Roy live from Jerusalem

>>983612

Was it a brave man dying for his beliefs or a guy getting caught up in the power struggle between the Pharisees and the Sadducees?

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is hardly heroic.

>>983541
Try doing it while living a sinless life. Try really hard.

>>983600
Paul is literally Jesus' right hand man. You have a problem with Paul, you have a problem with Jesus.

>>983637
We're talking the historical Jesus, not your Tulpa friend. Try to keep up.

I think very little can actually be verified of the man. What is said of him by his followers makes him sound like a fairly decent sort.

>>983618
Jesus went to great lengths to be crucified at the hands of the Jewish leaders under Rome's authority on a certain day at a certain time.

It didn't just "happen". It was planned before the world was made.

>>983645
Historical Jesus, not Tulpa. Keep up.

>>983637
It's possible, you're just unwilling to even try. Your wool shirt, dead sea, and torah are all waiting for you.

>>983317
>and he's wrong.
explain

>>983650
I know better than to try to live by God's Law, for I am not God. What God does naturally is impossible for me to achieve.

>>984792
Think about every single way a human being can be wrong about anything, double it, and you're in Bart Ehrman territory.

>>984801
Explain HOW he's wrong not just state your premise again.

>>983275
>political correctness

>>980737
this basically.

>>984795

Except of course, God says that it's not too hard to live by the Law.

So either you haven't read the Bible (likely), or you think God is a liar.

>>980675
I love the dude's ideas and he had the balls to die in a cross for them. Hell, he was the paragon of kindness and the most chill guy ever. You couldn't possibly hate him without being an edgy faggot.
On the other hand, God was a batshit insane cunt who could set shit straight with no effort at all yet doesn't.

>>984991
>Hell, he was the paragon of kindness and the most chill guy ever
How the fuck do you figure this?

>>984991
>I love the dude's ideas

What? The idea he was the Jewish Messiah and was about to bring about the Apocalypse and burn up most of the population of the world?

What a chill, sweet guy.

>>980675
>Love your enemies
No, I think I wont
>Take no thought for the morrow
That doesn't sound like good advice
>It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs
Um, she's a person not a dog, asshole
>No one can come to the Father except through me
Fine, fuck you and your dad too

>>980675
>does anyone dislike the actual dude?

I'm not even sure he existed at all.

>>985043
Remember when he was kind enough to reward the faith of that filthy dog, the Canaanite woman? You remember that mutt with the sick little runt? And Jesus, of the chosen and thus her master, took pity on her after her begging satisfied him and mercifully healed her sickly pup
Hell of a guy Jesus

>>980675
I like Superman better.

>>980675
> Preach to turn the other cheek when someone do you wrong
> Proceed to whip people you don't like
Nah he's a hypocritical cunt.

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>>980718
>Being this autistic

>>980745
You have to be 18+ to be on this website ya know

>>980675
>Says to follow the Law
>refuses to stone adulterous woman

Actual Biblical Jesus is actually total cunt. For example, he doesn't use parables in an effort to make people understand complicated concepts, he uses them specifically to confuse people (Matthew 13:10) and ensure they do not understand. The selectively edited pop-culture Jesus that is only the good philosophy is great, but that's obvious given he's a composite character that is an intentional symbol of goodness.

Jesus is a spook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

>thinking about commiting adultery is committing the sin of adultery
>eternal fire for denying the Holy Spirit
>Matthew 15:21-28 & Mark 7:24-30
>Kingdom of God is both not of this world yet within the people of this world, the rapidly approaching day of judgement the apostles would see in their lifetimes but also just the arrival of the Holy Spirit, the coming age of justice or just the beginning of the age of the church. The Kingdom of God is purpously vague.
>fulfills none of the Messianic requirements that Yahweh promised his people the Messiah would have
>towns that wont listen to your message will be consumed with fire on judgement day
>you won't make it through all the cities of Israel by the time the son of man returns
>very concerned about man's slavery to sin, but not so much about actual slavery
He wasn't the worst man in history, but his undeserved celebrity caused immeasurable damage that will never be undone.

However I'll mention two good ideas which weren't original, but at least he spread them along
>Love others
>Observing rituals such as animal sacrifice or handwashing before meals doesn't make you more pious than others or give you a moral highground over them

>>983637
Well, certainly seems easier than living a sinless life while holding a real job, a house, a car, a family and stuff.

>>984795
>lazy christian rationalizing
this is what I hate about his followers

>>983639
>Paul is literally Jesus' right hand man
Okay and Donald Trump is William Jennings Bryan's right hand man.

>>980675
>>980714
There are no reliable extra-biblical sources, but theres many positively confirmed as forgeries, and none even close to contemporary.
There's more sources for alien abductions than for jesus, and we learn nothing about actual aliens from those, only about how people can be mistaken.
Human sources being unreliable as is, and with absolutely no other evidence, I'd not say I know for sure he didn't exist, but I'd be surprised if he did.

The stories about jesus are contradictory, the characterizations ambiguous and wideranging, and everything he tought was still based on punishment and reward instead of actual morality.

It's really just another story from the end of the bronze age. Personally, I prefer the Odyssey, but some jesus stories are ok too.

>>986811
Jesus is God.

>>984936
Moses said the Law was right there to be seen, and read. The Law is not hidden up in heaven, or in the bottom of the sea. It's right there, carved in stone.

Nobody ever said it was easy. You fail at keeping it just like everyone else.

It's impossible to keep. It's God's Law.

>>984991
Same guy dude.

>>989346
No, I'm God

>>986587
Indeed. Sarcasm aside, He had already told the Jews He was not going to perform any more miracles, signs or wonders to prove He is the Messiah, after He cast a demon out of a deaf, dumb and blind man.

Once Jesus and the woman were on the same page, that this was a personal favor for her, from Jesus, He instantly healed the girl.

>>986599
Dang it, still can't hear you. How do I sound?

>>986601
Justice tempered with mercy.

Jew trap avoided.

>>986606
Yes! I'm glad you caught that. The children of the devil have no idea what parables mean. It's an awesome way to out someone who says they're a christian, but aren't.

>>986834
His followers are dead to the Law, and the Law does not pursue dead men.

Hating us is hating God's children, whom He loves.

>>989333
I'm not arguing with that. I have no idea why people get rid of the perfect bible and look for biased historians to tell them what's happening.

>>984795
>I know better than to try to live by God's Law
What the fuck do modern christcvcks think they're doing?

>>989390
Walking around as temples of the Holy Spirit, spreading light to the earth, and preserving it. Resting and abiding in Christ Jesus. Walking humbly and meekly with our God.

What did you think we were doing?

>>989392
>What did you think we were doing?
Casual alcoholism, pre-marital sex, and holiday church attendance.

>>989403
Many do these things. Is that a reflection on us, or on Jesus? When we do these things, are we doing what Jesus told us to do?

>>989405
yes, or are you saying that bad fruit can come from a good tree?

>>989408
Are you saying those people never evidence any good fruit? Then why call them christians?

>>989427
yep. fall back on your no true scotsman

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>>980675
>What do atheists think of Jesus?
I think he was just another apocalyptic preacher (common in that era) who followed John the Baptist but left to form his own following when their views over the exact nature of the apocalypse and what followed. I think he literally preached that God would install a kingdom of heaven on earth after the apocalypse. The way he talks about the role of his disciples in this coming kingdom indicates he thought god would place him as the overall ruler of the Kingdom but he never outright said so.

Overall he's a fascinating figure because of how much he has indirectly influenced the world through his followers. I have little doubt that the fully Jewish Jesus would have found his own religion unrecognizable after even 100 years but he's somehow one of the most important figures in history. If you could somehow bring him to the current day I think his biggest shock would be that the world is even here in its current form at all and yet he's central to so many events it's mind boggling.

>>989465
>If you could somehow bring him to the current day I think his biggest shock would be that the world is even here in its current form at all and yet he's central to so many events it's mind boggling.
I always wondered what would happen if you could show these figures modern re-interpretations of them. Ignoring all the logistical stuff like time travel or translation, what would the theoretical Yeshua ben Yosef, apocalyptic reform-Judaism preacher, think of seeing "himself" smiling benignly on inspirational posters? Or in children's cartoons? Could he even process something like Jesus Christ Superstar or Godspell? I know it's a silly line of thinking but it always seems to crop up with me.

>>989507
I like fiction that touches on historical figures viewing modernity. Shame it's usually played for laughs.

>>989507
>Yeshua ben Yosef, apocalyptic reform-Judaism preacher
I think he would be absolutely DISGUSTED with the current state of the religion. But also maybe having an existential crisis if he truly understood the world was 2000 years advanced from his death and God still hadn't intervened... he really thought it was close.

>I know it's a silly line of thinking but it always seems to crop up with me.
I mean, you cant read too far into it but it's interesting to think about. I do it with a lot of historical figures (like what would a Roman citizen think about all the "emulatuon" of Rome that occured?) but I think Jesus might be the most interesting.

I am simply frustrated. I want to be an atheist. But it's not possible. I've witnessed too much.

>>989465
>Saint Onii-san

It's pretty frustrating, because a lot of Christians treat it like some special club that if you don't belong to, you don't deserve to be respected or listened to. But when you read the (alleged) words of Jesus, you don't really get that other than the "I am the only way to heaven" thing. I suspect we'd all be a lot better off if we abandoned the insistence on imagining that Jesus literally existed as a person (which no one can prove, I know people get really crazy over that, but a) only written text exists from that time, so empirical evidence is pretty much out, and b) if there was a dude who literally fulfilled every OT prophecy, then not only would the Jewish church have accepted it, but it would have been widely recorded instead of just an oral tradition for 300 or so years), and instead treat it as the metaphor that it is.

>>989539
why would you want to be an atheist? you don't get any reward for being an atheist. the only reason I'm an atheist is because I came to the conclusion it was the more logical choice. I fought against the mental switch tooth and nail because I couldn't get rid of my fear of hell. I'm not sure which sounds more like bullshit, that you WANTED to be an atheist or that you've witnessed too much to be one. if you have some proof of God I would absolutely love to hear it

Here's a crazy idea: check out the Gospel of Thomas (22:4-7) "Jesus said to them, 'When you make the two into one, and when you make
the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the
lower, / and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the
male will not be male nor the female be female,
/ when you make eyes in
place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image
in place of an image, /
then you will enter [the (Father's) domain]."

Doesn't that sound a lot like building a robot? No gender, artificial body parts in place of natural ones? Now, consider the idea of the "virgin birth." Not born of a woman: wouldn't that also be an android? Like, what if the "historical Jesus" was really just talking about the coming singularity and self-aware machines that can tap into the superintelligence responsible for "creating" our universe?

Like, it sort of makes sense if you really think about it. Superintelligent communication with ancient cultures being communicated through written language trying to explain to humans how to transcend their own conditions as sentient beings bound by their flesh-prisons in spacetime? Prophets of all religions just humans who have "tapped in" to the omniscient source of information which exists outside of the closed-loop of our system of causality, but which cannot be understood without sufficient technological equipment except metaphorically?

Pretty crazy, right?

>>989623
pretty big stretch there, so yeah, crazy

>>989623
To continue, check out 18:1-3:
The disciples said to Jesus, 'Tell us, how will our end come?'
/ Jesus said, 'Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the
end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
/ Congratulations to the
one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste
death.'"

This could be explained if the singularity was the point at which we made connection with the source of omniscience, whereupon we find out that our universe is a closed time-loop, and its end is what causes the beginning setting off the chain of events which leads to the development of technology that enables its development, like one of those quantum instances of the reversal of causality where the effect of the interaction is the cause that led to the interaction that caused it. In that case, the idea of "not tasting death" could be the idea of transcending the limitations of our physical bodies and merging with the biotechnological adaptations which allow human beings to "evolve."

I just really like this idea, don't you?

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>>989623
>>989655
>I just really like this idea, don't you?
Sarcasm aside, whatever makes you happy.

>>989586

It's easier being an atheist. I was one for most of my life. Then things happened, and I've found it difficult to remain one. Basically, if you believe, then there are certain things you have to do and certain things you shouldn't do - lots of guilt comes with being this way. I don't have objective proof...it's just some things that are impossible to explain. God will make itself known to you when the time is right...and it will be frustrating.

>>989694
>Then things happened
>it's just some things that are impossible to explain
Stop being evasive.

>>989707

If I could put into words/explain then I wouldn't be frustrated...who knows maybe a year from now I'll have the necessary vocabulary.

>>989716
Did you get abducted by not-Aliens? Did you see something physically impossible like someone flying unaided? Did you have a bad feeling and something bad happened? Did someone you love's cancer suddenly go into remission?

>>989694
>God will make itself known to you when the time is right...and it will be frustrating.
say that to all the people who died as atheists. say that to all the people that died believing in the wrong god. now that is much more frustrating than learning you have to abide by some morals. most of the morals you believe you have to follow I probably also follow because of I believe they are neccisary to having a functional society or because they hurt people. as the socials animals we are I wouldn't be able to kill someone in cold blood without having a mental breakdown

>>989743
>I wouldn't be able to kill someone in cold blood without having a mental breakdown
>mental breakdown

You're making us look like pussies anon.

>>989753
well maybe I am a pussy. let be known that this anon is sturdy enough to kill someone in cold blood and not have a mental breakdown

>>989733

Nothing fantastic like that. I still have yet to put the puzzle together.

>>989743

I am not sure what you're trying to get at here. I've lost a lot in my life. So has my family, and many of my friends. I have all the reason in the world to be an atheist, and so I remained faithfully as such. Insofar as morality is not contingent on god, I behaved as ethically as possible. And I expect most atheists are ethical too. So again I don't get your rant.

Now my circumstances have changed and I'm re-examining my views. I'm still conflicted.

>>980675
I dont hate spiderman and i dont hate Jezus

>>989792
>Insofar as morality is not contingent on god
but you earlier appealed to the idea of an objective morality set by god. you said that because of the existence of god there are certain things you should do and shouldn't do. that is why you said that it is easier to be an atheist than to believe in whatever god you believe in.

>>989762
I hope you've never got my back. If shit goes southern, I need someone who'll stay calm and keep playing hymn of the republic.

>>989817
That's why I said in cold blood. I'm fine killing someone trying to kill me or someone else

>>989792
>I am not sure what you're trying to get at here. I've lost a lot in my life. So has my family, and many of my friends.
the point wasn't to say that people suffer a lot, the point is that many people have died without recieving some sort of revelation from this god you believe in. any punishment or reward based on this belief is therefore unjust

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>>989828
Look, there'll be executions and they'll be begging. Some of them will be our own. You might have been friends with some of them.

Even then, we'll still need you.

>>989792
>Nothing fantastic like that. I still have yet to put the puzzle together.
Okay, so by definition it needs to be less fantastic than that. So how about a bunch of "impossible/improbable coincidences lining up? Maybe a difficult to ignore internal voice?

>>989808

Yes, as an atheist, you could behave morally or virtuously. But you could also choose to behave amorally or immorally. Now the crucial difference, as far as my personal experience is concerned, is that with a belief in god guilt of a certain kind follows; and without a belief in god guilt of a different kind follows. I've found the atheist experience of guilt for not doing something, or for doing something, that should or should not be done, easier than the theistic one.

>>989839

Right. So we're back to what I said before: If I could make sense of everything, then I wouldn't be frustrated...rewards and punishment necessarily follow for all of us who are not psychopaths. We feel good for doing good, and feel bad for doing bad. For most people, anyway. Now I wish I could be as convinced in my views as you are, but I can't.

>>989860
>rewards and punishment necessarily follow for all of us who are not psychopaths. We feel good for doing good, and feel bad for doing bad
this goes against your first statement that atheists feel a different type of guilt after doing something immoral than theists do. atheists and theists have the same choice to do something immoral, the only difference is that we have to plead for forgiveness from the person we actually harmed, not a god. the only plausible situation where being an atheist could make someone more likely to do immoral things is if that person is a psychopath

>>980675
Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him. Mahatma Gandhi

>>990213
Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized... They are troublesome, very dirty and live almost like animals... The kaffir’s sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness. - Gandhi

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I have a big problem with pedantic nerds who either can't or willfully don't understand figurative language and don't trust their instinct on anything.

"Don't be so fucking literal." is an admirable message and for that, I respect him. He even died for it!

That said he wasn't god.

>>980825
So is every Bishop or Imam divine? You're seriously full of shit.

I don't even believe Jesus existed.

>>990331
Hindus calling kaffirs indolent & naked kek

Im not an atheist. Not a christian or part of any religion. I think he was a pretty cool guy.

>>980675

I'm an atheist and I respective Christ's altruistic sentiments, however I reject the modern notion projected upon him by modern Christians that replicating Christ's charity will somehow make the world a better place.

He was undoubtedly an admirable person with relatively "progressive" sensibilities for the time.

>>989352
Moses is comfirmed fake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity
As are by extension the dank-ass stone-tablet stories.

>>989405

I blame Jesus.

He was okay. As fictional character he done nothing wrong and historically speaking he wasn't really to blame for Christianity. I bet he even hated religions of his times like atheists hate what church do today.

>>990358
It's an historical fact that he existed you faggot.

I think "he" "had" some good ideas and I think it's freaking hilarious how much people go against his pronouncements, yet always find rationalizations to go along with their transgressions. My favorite is the part where he keeps saying "give away all your material possessions" (which is really stupid, but I'm not the one who thinks he's the shit), and christfags manage to turn that into promotions of capitalism.

>>996694
Yes, based on books written 50-100 years after his death. Because that's how historians worked.

>>>/trash/

>>996707
How Jesus can be made up if Christianity is real? There should be at least someone who was some kind of prototype figure for Biblical Jesus.

>>996718
>How Jesus can be made up if Christianity is real?
How can anything be made up? By engaging in creative thought. Jesus has about a 50-50 chance of being a complete fabrication by greek cultists in the second part of the first century.

>>980718
>"I used to be a butterfly", said the caterpillar.
isn't that the other way around ?

>>996718
>how can batman be made up if dc comics are real

>>996731

That was his point. He was using the metaphor to suggest it is impossible to stop being a Christian if you are a genuine Christian.

>>989333
>but I'd be surprised if he did.
Honestly, the fact that so much is attested to him (even if most of it is completely contradictory) and such a large, lingering movement was dedicated to him makes me believe there WAS actually a guy called Yeshua preaching about love and forgiveness and shit around first century Judea.

Whether or not he was anything like the Gospels describe him as I have no idea.

>>980825
... you know you don't have to be divine to be a religious founder, right?

You have a seriously warped, euro-centric view of religion m8.

>>980675
his followers can be retarded pussies who either cant stand up for themselves or make shit even worse but the guys alright.

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>>997477
Same goes for moses, or neptun. Neither were real. People like stories, and with jesus there were very good reasons to try and claim to have historical documents from him by poeople in around 100.

"Your sect has a new revelation? ..Well.. No see our sect has the authoritative texts from a real dude who was totally real, and you can't make up revelations anymore!"

The cargo cult tribes made up "Tom Navy" as a real dude within 20 years of the navy leaving. People are like that.

>>980675
No, he seems like he was a rad lad, just not the son of God.

>>998885
The biggest evidense Jesus was a historical person and not made up is that his enemies acknowledged him.

Let's say he never existed. You've got a bunch of Jews leaving the traditional religion for a strange new sect founded by a guy that never existed. How would you expect the Rabbis to respond?

Well obviously they would just tell people that Jesus never existed. Instead you get a bunch of Rabbinical texts that do the opposite and say there was a Jesus but that he was a rogue rabbi doing bad things.

>>998987
the rabbinical texts mentioning jesus weren't written in the first century

>>998885
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
>THIS FUCKIN PIECE OF SHIT MAGICIAN IS BURNING IN EXCREMENT RIGHT NOW I HATE HIM SO FUCKING MUCH EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER EXISTED
The other Jews at the time would have had every reason to outright deny his existence especially considering the religion which he started begun to actively harm their cause.

>>980675
Christ seems like he was probably a great man, and a great teacher of morals. Certainly nothing wrong with emulating the example of The Son.

It's the Father and the Holy Spirit that tend to bother me.

>>998987
>>999041
"Egyptian texts clearly say the roman gods are bullshit you can't explain that!"

or

"Scientologists say that some other aliens are total dicks so they must be real"

C'mon man.

>>999041
>>998987
That jesus was stoned, not crucified, 100 years before the biblical jesus.

Thats a shit claim for historicity. Thats more of a claim for the biblical jesus being made up from previous stories.

>>999112
Not him but that's completely incorrect. It's more like this:

>Did you hear Joseph Smith starting up his own church based around how Jesus visited the Americas?
>That's nonsense. He's completely twisting the Gospels and nothing good is going to come of that, he's probably going to hell for it too.

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>>999290
My point was I'm not trusting the writings of one cult about a competing cult as a historically reliable source.
Especially since they apparantly wrote about someone else entirely that got stoned like a century before that and not crucified or whatever.

The fact that someone would have to use that kinda shit to support historicity of a guy who supposedly died 100 years later on a cross seems reason enough to thoroughly doubt historicity claims thchwy famiglia.

>>986581
e p i c m e m e

>>990358
http://storage.cloversites.com/fcfgroups/documents/Why%20We%20Believe%207.pdf

>>998987
>you get a bunch of Rabbinical texts that do the opposite and say there was a Jesus but that he was a rogue rabbi doing bad things
and they even call his miracles ''magic''!

>>999156
>jesus was stoned, not crucified, 100 years before the biblical jesus
[citationS needed]

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>>1000632
>literally quoting 2nd age documents as proof
Anything to confirm a preconceived notion, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

>>1000669
>Richard Carrier - Did Jesus Even Exist?
trashed

>>1000688
>I refuse to consider new ideas!

>>1000724
>new ideas
stale memes*

FTFY

>>1000728
>I can assess an argument without seeing it!

>>1000748
It's a stale meme. Stop shitposting.

>>1000751
Christianity is a meme so stale it's nothing but mold.

>>980675
He's a suicidal God. Christianity is a deicidal cult who eat God's flesh and blood in order to gain sekrit power.

>>980675
If he existed at all, then i would dislike him. I'm not particularly opposed to Christianity in the modern world as it is largely benign and harmless but Jesus as a person is repulsive to me.

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>>1001621
Hmm...