>One of the Founding Fathers >literally walked into California

pretty based I suppose. I don't agree with the way that missions treated the indigenous peoples that weren't willing to convert so easily but the same can be said for anybody in any point of history really.
Living in California I have had the chance to visit the missions in San Diego, Santa Barbara, San Juan Capistrano

>>931967
He once pardoned the native killers of two fellow Franciscans. He was incredibly devout and kind to the natives.

The mission system has it's flaws for sure. What did you think of the Missions you visited?

>>931986
They are really nice places and I would recommend them to anybody who is interested in catholicism, history, or architecture for that matter. They range in size and accommodations of course. Most recently I was at the San Juan Capistrano with my family as we were taking a short trip up the coast. It was a small and modest mission but was really pretty with the flowers and kept up nicely

>>932014
I have a friend who I attend mass with, he keeps talking up the based nature if silent retreats actually. 3 days, 2 nights. Prayer, lecture, food and lodging provided.

Only $150 that is a bargain.

>>932030
that sounds like a nice experience I would take that up if you get the chance.

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Why do people seem to think he emerged on a genocide against the Indians?
Is there any truth to that?

>>932527
This tone deaf elevation of a religious zealot is NOT unexpected from organized religion.

This Pope is just another corporate tyrant with pretty dresses, a hand full of gimme, and a mouth full of much obliged.

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>>931962
I've been to the mission in Lompoc a couple times, pretty fucking neat.

>>932670
Or maybe it's just politically correct people that have the need to do something about their white guilt without doing anything about the white privilege they think they have?

>>932701
Facts are facts. Fact when the Spanish arrived in America the native population numbered 17,000,000. Within 50 years it was down to 3 million. They worked them to death in mines, killed them with their European Diseases and slaughtered them for their land, gold and emeralds.

I wonder why you consider genocide a trifling thing

>>931957
The natives didn't wanna learn animal husbandry or agriculture.

They wanted to maintain their oppressive little tribal societies in which men spent the whole day sleeping and women did all the work. American settlers were shocked by how much labour the Indians were able to pawn off on their women.

>>932712
We are talking about events happening a few hundreds of years after the discovery of America, about a man that neither spread diseases or waged wars because he wanted Gold.

Do you maybe blame the Mongols for the great plague since it originated from their lands?

>>932725
Missionary work is not god's work. It's social and cultural abuse. One peoples' religion is not inherently superior to another. Missionaries merely represent a form of colonialism. And it's often accompanied by brutality and the destruction of the conquered culture

Today, the children of indigenous descent are taught to celebrate the arrival of Columbus and the odious apparatus of the church which is akin to asking Jewish children to celebrate Hitler's birthday. Take a good look at the prevailing latino culture of murder, rape and corruption. The legacy of these so called saints.

>>932740
People have been culturally assimilating each other since forever though, the Indians had been doing that since long before the Spanish arrived. Do you think the Indians would have been in a better position if they hadn't become intrigated into the conquerors culture? Collumbus was a dick, sure, but he is not held as a Saint by the Catholic Church and since the USA wouldn't exist without him I don't see it as that weird that he is celebrated the USA, they should just not require the Indians to celebrate him.

> Take a good look at the prevailing latino culture of murder, rape and corruption. The legacy of these so called saints

Messo AMercians have been violent since forever, before the Europeans arrived their religion was centered around how the Gods demanded bloodshed to allow the world to continue functioning.

>>932527
Why were people mad with for Francis again? If the descendants of those Indians are Christians, they then understand the favor he did to them. If they are not Christians, why do they care about the belief of other people religion?

>>932776
And exactly the same sort of conquistador mentality existed in Spain and Portugal just against the Muslims, would you say these countries continue to be filled with violence til today?
If anything really fucked up Latin America it was likely the war on drugs.

>>932780
People think he isn't going quite far enough.
And I have kinda gotten the idea that Liberals will get angry at anyone that don't believe the Indian version on how they were peaceful and harmonic before the Europeans arrived, is that any wrong?
((Not saying Conservatives are any better))

>>932780
When any one church gets too much power they become extremely corrupt, just like governments, corporations or individuals.

We all need to follow Jesus and his example and when we see a church covering up, being controlling, getting involved in politics, being abusive and hording up assets. We know this is not from God and we need to run the other direction.

We established religious freedom in America for a reason, to stop religious persecution and protect people's rights to worship as they wish. There are 30,000 Christian denominations in the world and I think this is a divine act from God.

>>932776
> their religion was centered around how the Gods demanded bloodshed

Human sacrifice is presented as the highest ideal in Christianity.

All genocides/massacres and general atrocities committed in the name of Christianity were based on an idea that a society had to be purified of "dirty" and "foreign" elements, not to mention "heretics".

In other words, according to the Christain tradition, if you manage to show that certain atrocity can be interpreted as a sacrifice to god, you are good to go. You even have elements of that in this current sainthood story. Serra killed and tortured all those people for a greater spiritual good (for their own sake).

It is because of that, not in spite of it, that he is going to be proclaimed a saint.

>>931957
what makes you think natives needed food from these fools

>>932712
>Within 50 years it was down to 3 million.
TBF that's because smallpox and other diseases happened, and that wasn't exactly under the control of, or even known to, the Spanish.

>>932670
This pope is arguably one of the most accomplished leaders in recent history.

>>932882
Ye shall judge them by their fruits.

Obviously the church thinks this man did good works for the church.

Just check out how many other Catholic Inquisition monsters were 'canonized'

>>932882
>>932899
Is there any good stats on how many this one guy ended up killing or torturing?

And care to name some other inquistion monsters that were canonized?

>>932527
Native American groups needing a focus point to pass blame outside of "the White man".

In reality he was a far better option compared to being ruled by the Spanish military, who'd kill ten of your people if a native killed one.

>>932899
>Protestants still believe their black legends

/his/ isn't a place for falsehoods. Inquisitors were for the longest time one of the more educated and fair court of European society.

In it's 300+ years existing around 2000-5000 executions actually took place.

>>932904
He was responsible for the appalling treatment of the so-called 'neophytes'. These luckless natives were imprisoned in a number of concentration camps(missions) established along the coast, beaten, starved and forced to labour for the Spanish. Those who tried to escape were hunted down by the Spanish soldiery.

Do you think this was nothing to do with Serra (when not acting for the Spanish Inquisition and hunting down witches and other imaginary foes of the Church) who oversaw this regime?

>>932931
I asked for source Juan, got anything where I can read about this?

>In his austere cell, Serra kept a chain of sharp pointed iron links hanging on the wall beside his bed, to whip himself at night when sinful thoughts ran through his mind. His nightly self-flagellations at the college of San Fernando caught the ears of some of his fellow friars. In his letters to his Franciscan companions, Serra often referred to himself as a "sinner" and a "most unworthy priest."

>In one of his sermons in Mexico City, while exhorting his listeners to repent their sins, Serra took out his chain, bared his shoulders and started whipping himself. Many parishioners, roused by the spectacle, began sobbing. Finally, a man climbed to the pulpit, took the chain from Serra's hand and began whipping himself, declaring: "I am the sinner who is ungrateful to God who ought to do penance for my many sins, and not the padre [Serra], who is a saint." The man kept whipping himself until he collapsed. After receiving the last sacraments, he later died from the ordeal.

wew

>>932947
> the spiritual fathers should punish their sons, the Indians, by blows appears to be as old as the conquest of these kingdoms."

-Junipero Serra (July 7, 1789)

>>932933
A Cross of Thorns: The Enslavement of California's Indians by the Spanish Missions by Elias Castillo

>>931957
becuase he was part of the spanish colonial machine......even if he was relativley nicer to the natives he was still a part of the system which commuted genocide, cultural and population, so at best he was kinder gentler colonial master

>>932780
>they then understand the favor he did to them
you mean the favor of feeling disconected from your own culture,language, and religion?

>>932921
yes he was a better option then the millitary....but a better option would have been neighter......why do we need to defend a lesser crimminal becuase the other criminal was worse? both are criminals who, at the ed of the day, helped to wipe out and destroy people and cultures

>>932740
>Missionary work is not god's work. It's social and cultural abuse.
I agree with you but their Bible literally says go and spread the word of god. So to them, it's god's work

>>932776
>Do you think the Indians would have been in a better position if they hadn't become intrigated into the conquerors culture?
they werent integrated tho.....they were enslaved, made subhuman lower caste non citizes, land and wealth taken away, forcibly converted, and also killed....the native population of the americans as reduced over a few hundred years of collonialism from 100% to between 5 and 10 % depending on the estimate

comparing the varios wars and conflicts of individual native groups to the continental genocide commited by collonialsim against the entire native population is weak

>>932984
>their Bible literally says
I always love it when the christians choose which part of their holy book they should take "literally"

>>932998
>I always love it when the christians choose which part of their holy book they should take "literally"
Well, look at it this way, the Bible isn't really so much a book as it is a library. There's no reason any Christian should interpret the poetry, songs or parables found in the Bible literally anymore than they should believe that Shakespeare's plays are literal accounts of history.