As a southerner, I understand that the Civil War was mostly about

>>871481
There are a lot of people who are white supremacists or find the personal freedoms of White people to be above those of blacks.

Romanticising rebels?

>>871492
Nobody has ever thought that except for cartoon characters.

>>871481
>As a southerner, I understand that the Civil War was mostly about slavery. But I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today, or that the south should have won the war. Why is that?
Western world is about to collapse due to demographic trends and "resettlements." It's not surprise people look to prior historical events as to which was the "turning point." I don't believe the confederacy could have won, nor do I support slavery, but this is part of the rationale
.

>>871481
There's multiple books written on this, OP, and I can point you in the direction if you like. Most of it has to do with the romanticisation of the CSA following the (supposed) failures of Reconstruction. As well as this, several motivated groups lobbied for Lost Cause history to be placed in schoolbooks, and threw up monuments to fallen Confederate soldiers in the South basically wherever they could find. Add to this the Dunning School, which basically said that b/c Reconstruction was so bad segregation was justified, and the Southern strategy playing off white fears of the Civil Rights Movement, and you have a more or less continuous line of Confederate sympathising through to this day.

>>871481
>as a failed Yankee scum
ftfy

>>871496
Nobody has ever held the personal freedoms of White people to be above those of blacks? Please, tell me more.

>>871481
It would have weakened the strength of the USA as a whole, and therefor american influence on the world would have been much less, probably would have been a positive thing.

See >> 871755

>>871492
That doesn't correlate to supremacism at all.

It was somewhat of a unique culture in the US at the time if Gone With the Wind has told me anything.

>>871615
>muh southern strategy

Like clockwork... Do lefties just keep a list of buzzwords that they try to inject into every argument?

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>>871481

Putting aside anything to do with race, slavery, or morality, I suspect it's a point of pride. In a lot of people's eyes, the Confederates represented the spirit of the South. Something to hold over those nefarious yankees and their confounded industrial development.

Personally, I wouldn't be proud of the Confederacy because the Confederacy fucking lost, but I can see why other people might hold some admiration for it.

>>873195
They also redefine words to fit their cognitive dissonance. It's disgusting, all leftists should be locked up for life

>>871481
>I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today
Where and when have you noticed these people?

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>>873195
>hurr, yur a librul
Not that anon, but that's a pretty fucking weak comeback. That guy posted a well-constructed argument and the best you can do is accuse him of holding a political position you find distasteful. That's something I would expect from a Tumblrite, not a /his/torian.

God, I hate fagolas like you who feel the need to inject modern politics into a board that's supposed to be about things that aren't modern. Fucking stay on Tumblr or /pol/ or wherever you assholes congregate.

>>871494
This is probably the most correct one desu.

I personally don't understand people who say the Civil War didn't have anything to do with slavery when its leaders expressly claimed that their country was founded on the principles of the superiority of the white man over black.

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Fuck you, Andrew Johnson. I don't know if it was due to your incompetence or racism, but the South wouldn't still be throwing a bitchfit if you had actually reconstructed anything.

>>871481

International supporters are by-and-large just people who hate the modern US and wish we'd remained a farmer's republic instead of the most powerful and influential country in existence.

>>873195
At any point in time you can address what I said, friend. Do people doubt that there was a Southern Strategy now?

>>873229
desu I'm pretty sympathetic to this argument. So much of the literature points to people clinging onto this idea of the "Old South" as idyllic, and slave-holding, sure, but the slaves were happy to be slaves. A lot of literature demonised Reconstruction as "proof" blacks were better off as slaves
You see this a lot with people trying to make a "New South" focused on industrialisation, which quickly subsumes the idea of the old South in order to gain traction

There is no international support of the former CSA. OP just made it up and now all you fools are coming up with explanations for nothing.

Why weren't all the niggers deported to Africa after emancipation? That's what most poor white people wanted anyway, guess the elites betrayed them once again.

>>873340
You've never been to Eastern Europe, they L-O-V-E the CSA there.

>>873345
I'm calling bullshit.

>>873352
Not that guy but David Blight says, the battle flag is pretty much the secondmost famous symbol of America worldwide. I don't think people in EE necessarily equate it with the CSA, just a vague Americanism

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>>873352
Not bullshit at all.

>>871481
same reason people romanticize nazi germany, because both of their ideals more or less line up.

>>873430
CSA and Nazi Germany have literally nothing in common aside from racism, and even then German racism was something very different from Southern racism.

The Confederacy advocacy group is a mish-mash of white supremacists who wish the damn niggers were still in their place, libertarian extremists who view the triumph of the Union as the downfall of freedom in America (slavery is a-OK, though), and people who just like a good old fashioned revolution regardless of the reasons for revolution.

>>873450
>nothing in common
>both societies that relied on slave labor to enable them to continue participating in a conflict
>both societies defined by a rigid, moralizing upper class with a distinct ideology
>both societies sent people from all levels of society to die for their ideology
>both societies relentlessly attacked their opponents for various 'degenerate' attributes

>>873494
>both societies defined by a rigid, moralizing upper class with a distinct ideology

Congratulations, you just described every political system in the history of man.

>>873342
Jews.

>>873494
This is so fucking vague you could apply it to virtually half of the countries that ever existed.

>>873515
So? Doesn't mean they aren't legitimate parallels, especially them both being fundamentally dependent on slave labor

>>873522
Germany wasn't dependent on slave labor until like 1942.

Was there ever a chance at Reconstruction ever succeeding?

>>873494
Nazi racism was genocidal. CSA racism was paternalistic and a business tactic.

>>873430
>let's not look into nazi germany and the CSA in any more detail than "they were racist meanies"
why is this the mainstream view, if racism is so terrible wouldn't you want to find out exactly why these things happened

>>873536
Right, but in the later stages of the war it absolutely was, and the CSA's reliance on slave labor similarly expanded throughout the war. They both have very similar trajectories.

>>873543
No, it was basically Northern colonization of the South. White Southerners are basically the dindus of white people so naturally they resisted all attempts to modernize their society.

>>873545
Yeah, that's why I didn't imply that their racial worldviews were similar, because they were not. I've grown up in Richmond VA and spent most of my college career studying Nazi Germany, so I'm definitely acutely aware of the divergences

>>871481
The States lost their protection from the Federal Government. Lincoln destroyed the right for States to make their own laws. The biggest reason this sucks ass is because it makes trial and error state by state less effective. Before hand, a state govt could look at a policy at the next state over and say "hey, that's a good idea" or more importantly decide "Wow, those guys are faggots and we will never make that mistake"

>>873551
Actually if anything the South were increasingly warming up to at least partial emancipation as the war progressed.

>>873545
Also this.

>>873543
If the radical reconstructionists had gotten their way and imposed genuine change on the south, instead of knuckling under like a bunch of bitchmade retards in 1877, I think it could have succeeded.

>>871481
>But I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today
Where on earth did you find these people. Unless you actively search for these obscure sub-cultures you won't find them.

>>873562
Got a good source for that? Everything I've read paints the opposite picture, that their anxiety about the end of slavery increased and they turned to desperate measures like training slaves to work at Tredegar or even bringing them into the army, but actual manumission wasn't on the table.

>>873567
Come to Virginia, dude, we have tons of neo-confederates.

>>873574
I think he was talking about the 'international' bit.

I can see how European neonazis, South Africans, and UKIP types might like the CSA

>>873551

Wow it's almost like governments will use whatever labor is at their disposal when they are on the losing side of a total war.

What an enlightening and useful comparison you've brought up, it's clear now that the CSA was just like Nazi Germany, as well as every other government that's ever resorted to forced labor during a war.

>>873574

In Virginia neo-confederates makes sense though because Virginia seceded over the federal government's response to the attack on Ft Sumter, rather than simply for the sake of promoting slavery like South Carolina did.

>>873627
Well, many fence-sitters and unionists supported secession after Lincoln mobilized the army post-Sumpter, but Virginians were arguably more aware than anyone else that our economy was deeply bound up in slavery. We certainly went to war to promote racial slavery and most Virginians knew that, and were comfortable with it.

Good book about this is "Why Confederates Fought".

>>873615
Many nations didn't resort to forced labor, including the United States in both the Civil War and World War II, so I'm not sure why you think this is such a gotcha. I

Furthermore, I'm not saying the CSA was "just like" Nazi germany since it is insane to pretend the similarities between two states nearly 100 years apart and in different parts of the world would have anything but interpretative/surface level similarities, which is precisely what I'm asserting, you fucking mook.

>>871481
Because everyone there is either a nigger or as dumb as a nigger.
And you're ruining my country.

You wanted out, you got out, and for some reason we took you back- so you could ruin our Teen pregnancy rates, have the worst education, suck a shitload of federal grants away, and field the most Republican congressmen of any group.

We should have burned your country to the ground and left you.

>>873640
What the fuck kind of nonsense post is this? You're all butthurt about southern conservatism and the presence of "niggers" in the south?

>>873637

Conscription is a type of forced labor

>>873645
Not butthurt about nig nogs, they didn't have any say in the matter. It's the white dipshits in the south that took people with average IQs 20 points lower and stockpiled them in their country.

Why I'm 'butthurt' about southern Conservatism:
We, for all intents and purposes, ARE 2 different nations and have been since the split. With the exceptions of Virginia recently and Florida possibly, every southern state makes itself into everything the rest of the world hates about America, whereas the North actually has areas of culture and infrastructure. Look at basically ANY map, you'll see that the North is better in nearly every way.

So stupid that they call corporate monopolies "Freedom".

Black people =/= niggers.
Black people that get jobs and live peacefully and harmlessly are not niggers.

>>873450
>>873494
>both societies relied on food to feed their troops
>both societies used guns to shoot opponents
>both societies had self identifying flags
>both societies used governmental structure with positions of leadership
You'd have to be a fool not to see the similarities.

>>873195

How about you go chill with your brethren at /pol/?

>hurr i dont agree wti him better call him a leftist

Or how about instead you actually contribute something useful to the conversation instead of underhanded insults?

>>873273
this

>>873688
Don't fucking respond, idiot. I know I'm being hypocritical but just ignore obvious /pol/bait, unless you actually enjoy being bombarded by infographs and memes.

>>873298
Yep, Johnson royally fucked up reconstruction. He was somehow both too harsh where he should have been fair and too lenient where he should have been steadfast.

>>873672
Amen, brother.
Yankees are the only saving grace of the US.
The South and most of the Midwest is a garbage fire.

>>873680
Oh, fuck off with this strawman. The specific socioeconomic parallels I outlined (reliance on slave labor, specifically racially motivated ruling class, etc) aren't nearly as broad as you're implying.

>>873670
This is a fair point that I hadn't thought of! I would argue conscription is fundamentally different from slavery in a lot of ways but yep, it is definitely forced labor.

>>873672
I despise Conservative southern politics, being a Virginian and a socialist, but I really can't abide reading someone who pretends to be left-wing calling Black Virginians "niggers". It's really distasteful.

>>873543
Maybe if Lincoln stayed around to finish his turn and set it on the right track.
Also, the former confederacy politicians should never have been let back into congress.

>>873718
> most of the Midwest is a garbage fire.
As a proud Ohioan yankee, I am offended.
The midwest is mostly fine, except maybe Missouri and Kansas.

>>873742
>Ohioan
Fuck off flyover state.

>>873768
Fight me coastal faggot.

>>873784
>non-original 13 colony fag talking shit
You a saucy cunt!

>>871481
The prevailing view is that liberating 4 million slaves was worth a million dead.

However considering Brazil ended slavery in the 1880s I think slavery would have ended in the 1880s at the latest as new technology arose and the economy changed. It is completely reasonable to question whether Abraham Lincoln's aggressive occupation of Fort Sumter was justified (although he did not order it he condoned it by sending supplies).

Also of note is the fact that many slaves starved to death after the civil war, it wasn't just a million predominately white male cis scum who died.

>>871481
ex-slaves rather

>>873800
>non-superior Northwest ordinance fag throwing shade
You're just jealous of our lakes.

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>>871481

The entire concept of the "united states" is the fact that each state is afforded the opportunity to govern itself in accordance with the laws created and approved by the citizens within that state. The civil war essentially shit all over that concept when the federal government decided to usurp the power of the states and make proclamations against the will of the people of the southern states.

People simply overlook this fact because "muh slavery".

The reason we are a republic, and not a centralized government ran shithole, is to allow each state to maintain their unique culture and laws. People don't appreciate that and have been using the feds to impose their shitty will on the nation ever since.

>>873818
>Northwest
>superior
Disgusting, stay with your Mormon shits.

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>>873834
Slavery is also unconstitutional, however it would have ended on its own accord eventually, if it weren't for dishonest abe we would have enjoyed both state rights and emancipation.

>>873898

Sure it is.....when you reinterpret it to fit your agenda, as people have been doing since the thing was written.

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>>873721

>being a Virginian and a socialist

I want the Yankees to leave.

>>873930
I'm a southerner born and bred, bitch.

>>873935
>Virginian
>socialist

Choose one.

>>873935
More like born and RED amirite?

>>873943
The best parts of Southern cultural values - gentility, commitment to family and community cohesion, the provision of care to those who need it, and hard work - are all completely compatible with socialism. Your vulgar individualism would have shocked early Virginians.

>>873945
Heyo.

>>873943
South is a shit hole, shit holes have communists because of shit genetics and generally poor human capital.

>>873972
I'm not a communist, and perhaps the correlation between left-wing ideology and shitholes is due to those of us who live in them are able to perceive the validity and importance of left wing solutions.

>>871481
A lot of people who advocate for "liberty" small government conservatives and libertarians portray the conflict as a fight between federal control and states rights. Being in favor of decentralized govt n all

>>873952
That's what they told you in New York, isn't it Ms. "Virginia".

>>874003
Sorry that I'm a true son of Dixie ie, a socialist.

>>873835
>Northwest Ordinance
That doesn't mean the Northwestern US today. It meant the northwestern US in the 1780's-90's, meaning what is now the great lakes states today.

>>873721

>aren't nearly as broad as you're implying.

Every European empire before WWII used a significant amount of forced labor and a racial caste system supported by the ruling class. Ethiopia and Japan did too.

You can claim that the confederacy was a mistake and that slavery had long-lasting negative effects for black people without demonizing Southern whites by comparing them to Nazis. The comparisons are totally unwarranted and unnecessary.

>many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today, or that the south should have won the war. Why is that?

Lol what, since when

>>873935
More like bull-bred, amirite.

>>874006
Protip: I don't care.

>>873972
>Virginia
>Maryland
>DC
>Delware
>shitholes
Reminder that some of the wealthiest counties and cities, as well as affluent populations and educated are in the South with Virginia and Maryland sitting in the top 10 in both categories for decades now.

>>873943
>>873930
>I have never lived or been in NoVA before
ITT: "Let me try to tell you about your own state"

>>874069
>NoVa
>Virginia

Choose one.

>>874069
I should add that I'm not from NOVA, fuck NOVA. South Virginia/Richmond and NC confluence is the best part of the south.

>>874090
So Robert E. Lee isn't a Virginian because he's from NoVA area too?

>>871481
Some people will argue over "muh states rights" or "muh slavery" or "muh alienation" or whatever, but the truth is that the war was fought because the Union was jelly of the Confederacy's superior music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5xdgYLuFCk

>>874069
>nigger thinks all the asshole imports working for the feds in D.C. from NoVa are "Virginians".

>>874100
>SoVA
Enjoy your stabbings and homeless people trying to mug college students down in VCU or VT I guess.

>>874090
NoVA is Northern Virginia. Which has historically always been part of Virginia since its founding as a colony after Jamestown, why the fuck wouldn't we be Virginians?

>>871615
I mean you cant say that reconstruction wasnt terrible for the southern states, much like the treaty of Versailles for germany
>they lost so fuck them
uh huh cause thats working

>>874106
I think anyone who lives in Virginia, is classified as a Virginian citizen, and has a permanent residency in Virginia is a Virginian. If you are autistic or ass-blasted so badly that you think 99% of the federal workers in NoVA and DC aren't VA/DC, that's your problem.

>>874103
I fucking love confederate music. I recently learned that Confederate soldiers were allowed to elect their regimental level commanders (most of the time), which was pretty fascinating. I've always despised the Confederacy and the legacy of racism it left us in the South, but it is a much more nuanced and interesting thing than I think many of us on the left are willing to acknowledge.

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>>874101
>nigger thinks the NoVa today even remotely resembles Bobby Lee's NoVa

>>874111
Have you been to Richmond lately? the city is pretty great these days honestly.

>>874120
I agree with this, I just really don't like NOVA. It's too crowded and bourgeois for me.

>>874057
Well, if you want to excel at interstate banter, you should be sure of which state you're bantering with.

>>874111
>moves to NoVa from some socialist shithole Yankee city
>thinks they're living in the "south"

>>874124
I'm pretty sure Robert E. Lee would be more obligated in terms of his own views to stand with NoVA then SoVA.

>>874139
Who are you quoting?

>>873898
>Slavery should've been kept, it would have died eventually!

We don't need to arrest that rapist, he'll die eventually!

>>874133
I have and the entire district around VCU is still just as bad as before.

>>874139
What the fuck are you babbling about? Virginia is the South. Maryland, Delaware and DC are also the South. You do understand there is a massive difference between the South and the DEEP SOUTH right?

Also I've lived in DC and NoVA all my life. Project harder.

>>874057
Delaware is most certainly a shithole my friend. Virginia aside from NoVa (liberal carpetbagger zone) is basically Alabama and DC is a ghetto paradise.

>>874142

I don't think Bobby Lee spoke Espanol, did he senor?

>>874147
>Virginia aside from NoVA (liberal carpetbagger zone)
Wrong.
>is basically Alabama
Dead wrong.
>DC is a ghetto paradise
Only the Southeast which is largely African-American demographically speaking and hugely gentrified from the rest of the District which is mainly Asian and White.

You don't know shit.

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>>874146
>You do understand there is a massive difference between the South and the DEEP SOUTH right?

>>874150
Are you seriously trying to bring up Hispanics when they are fastest growing minority across the entire Eastern Seaboard? Holy shit, kill yourself.

>>874160
Oh okay, it's /pol/ shitposting time? Cool.

>>874146
>I have and the entire district around VCU is still just as bad as before.

Bullshit. Jackson Ward and Carver are still a little bit cracky, and if you keep going down broad street in either direction it obviously decays a little the further you go, but the district immediately surrounding VCU has gotten so much nicer in the 20 years I've lived here its unbelievable.

>>873906
You don't have to stretch very far after the bill of rights.

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>>874153
DC is basically Liberia you fucking retard. I'd rather live in Detroit than that cesspit.

>>874160
>implying there isn't

Texas is also quite different.

>>874169
There are still curfews at VCU for the park because of all the homeless people who have been known to attack students and pedestrians with knives and shivs. Richmond is almost as bad in general as Baltimore when it comes to violent crime outside of being notably less bad as shootings go.

>>874160
>>874147
t. shitposter

>>874172
Once again: mainly in the Southeast, which is also the poorest residential area in the District in the first place. What a twist huh?

>>874172
I don't know about that anon.

I mean, sure, D.C. IS a ginormous shithole, but saying it's worse than Detroit might be pushing it...

>>874160
>literally being so retarded he thinks the South and Deep South are the same
So Mississippi and Florida are the same?

>>874145
It is not that simple, someone has to weigh the consequences.

Do you believe we should go to war with North Korea to liberate their concentration camps regardless of the number of people who will die once they use their nuclear weapons?

>>874185
>There are still curfews at VCU for the park because of all the homeless people who have been known to attack students and pedestrians with knives and shivs. Richmond is almost as bad in general as Baltimore when it comes to violent crime outside of being notably less bad as shootings go.

Well, yeah, Monroe Park sucks and is full of homeless people. But you should take a stroll down Grace street or head up Semmes over the bridge, all the new development has been fantastic. Statistically, violent crime here is at the lowest point since, like forever. I feel pretty safe all the time and I live in the heart of the "ghetto".

>>874185
>b-but if I cherrypick only the good areas then it'll look good!

Nice goalpost moving, sod off ghetto boy.

>>874190
>literally being so retarded that they think NoVa is part of their "south/deep south" pretense

>>871481
t. carpetbagger

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>>873340
Frigg off

>>874199
Surprised they don't throw their back out the way they carry around those goal posts...

>>874189
>Georgetown
>Spring Valley
>DuPont
>Cathedral Heights

I can actually go on with more of this. Specifically speaking the poorest part of DC is the Southeast across Anacosta; which again is largely poor African-Americans in terms of demographics with some Hispanic admixture.

>>874199
Where are the goal posts being moved, my fallacy misusing shitposting friend?

>>874189
DC, St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, all shit. Can't really pick which one is the worst.

>>874216
True...true.

>>874200
Northern Virginia is an area in Virginia, a state in the South; which has never been traditionally associated with the Deep South. You can shrektext all you want but no one is buying your bullshit.

>>874212
>see, I'm gonna claim a place is rich, but I'lll pick only the wealthy and non-crime ridden areas and ignore the bad ones!

With this retarded logic you can make even Detroit look good.

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>>874199
>>874207

NoVa is southern in the same way Austin is Texan. I mean geographically they are, but culturally it's completely out of place.

>>874229
So you don't know what "moving" the goal posts are, you intentionally attempt to poison the well and you actually are the only one here guilty of "cherry-picking" by focusing on a single region in the District of Colombia where the lion share of crime and poverty are represented primarily by a single demographic?

You sure are a huge shitposter. mate.

>>874222
NoVa is about as "southern" as Bruce Jenner is a "woman".

>>874241
NoVA is the same culturally as Virginia Beach as well. Culturally Virginia has more in common with Maryland and DC to the rest of the North then they do with the Deeper South.

Also most of our governors in the last 40-50 years have been moderates, and we were traditionally a democratic state post-Civil War.

>>874247
Sure thing dude.

>>874241
Or maybe southern culture is more diverse than you've been led to believe.

>>874212
You know that little white speck on top of chicken shit?

That's chicken shit too...

>>874243
The place as a whole has Nigeria tier murder rate amigo.

>>874241
DC/DW/MD/VA have always been more moderate then the rest of their Southern neighbors, there is no "uniform" general attitude in terms of the Northeast or Southeast as far as political views or culture go.

>>874266
Sure thing, faggot.

>>874263
I'm sure there's nothing southern about federal employees moving in from all over the country and completely changing the demographic landscape.

> southern culture is more diverse than you've been led to believe

I know that. Kentucky and Louisiana are both southern even though they're very different from each other. But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.

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>>874285

>>874268
Actually if you want to be logical, that'd be Florida or Alaska.

>>874297
Memeing? Cool.

>>874250
I think it is a more complicated picture than that. Sure, we've had a raft of moderate governors since the civil rights act, and we flirted with conservative Democratic populism from 1865-1920 or so, but Virginia has also historically been as resistant as other southern states to federal civil rights impositions. We were at the forefront of temperance/prohibition, Jim Crow, Massive Resistance, anti-homosexual laws, etc etc.

Simultaneously, though, VA has also had a large and diverse artistic community centered in Richmond and NOVA since at least the turn of the century. There was a really significant bohemian movement here in the 1920s - Langston Hughes came to Richmond in the mid-20s and had a grand time partying with our literary elite, though I'll grant he seemed to associate them with distinctly non-Southern cultural values.

http://theamericanreader.com/20-november-langston-hughes-to-carl-van-vechten/

Here's a neat little tidbit on avante garde literature in Richmond in the early 20th century - I'm sure there's more, I just did some research on this guy for a seminar and found him really interesting.

https://medium.com/@sgcbsg/virginia-vagaries-hunter-stagg-brilliant-talented-lazy-and-effete-1-ba29eac22b12#.nt89oxglc

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>>873952

>Your vulgar individualism would have shocked early Virginians.

You are a liar.

The relative lack of government and inherited class distinctions, the scarcity of urban settlements and the labor they offered, and abundant opportunities for land ownership resulted in a highly individualistic frontier mentality in 17th century Virginians that persists to this day in the western part of the state. The earliest Virginians arrived so they could get rich off tobacco and return to England afterwards as wealthy men. The following generation aspired to own self-sufficient farms and detested the government's attempts to prevent them from seizing Indian lands, culminating in Bacon's Rebellion. Other than meeting up for church on Sundays and heading to the courthouse once a month for market days, Virginians rarely congregated with each other. The culture of honor system arose as a result, forcing people to defend their reputations as fiercely as their property if they wanted to be known as trustworthy persons to creditors and neighbors. The spirit of individualism only grew further in the 18th century with the enlightenment, the first great awakening, and the ideas of Thomas Jefferson.

I can't believe I have to explain this to someone who claims to have studied history.

>>873935

You are clearly not Southern bred.

>>874295
>But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.

This.

Niggers wouldn't know a collard green, a ham hock, or a bass lure if they jumped up and bit them on the ass.

>>874295
>But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.

Perhaps, but associating Southernness with conservative politics and whiteness is very reductive, and that seems to be the main reason people assert places like Austin and Nova aren't truly "southern".

>>874317
You're referring to the Virginian culture that coalesced outside of the Chesapeake region from 1640 onwards, and you're not incorrect. What I'm talking about are the much earlier settlers in the Northern Neck who were almost absurdly pious and interventionist in their enforcement of ecclesiastical laws and their willingness to impose the will of the state to stabilize tobacco prices/control smallholding farmers.

>>874317
Also I should add that the residents of the amalgamated 3-county area you're referring to represented a tiny fraction of Virginia's population before the 18th century.

>>874313
Virginia was the role model for where the Civil Rights movement had a domino effect on the rest of the South. When Jim Crow laws went out of Virginia relatively painlessly, the rest of the Southern states followed suit.

>>874317
It sounds like you're reading and copy-pasting from a textbook. Virginia as a colony and the Revolutionary period quickly transformed from isolated agrarian settlements and plantation to many co-depenent townships and small cities. While not everything you're saying is wrong, individualism was not that strong of a thing that defined Virginians.

>>874326
Even NoVA is hugely white and the main minorities here are Asian and Hispanic but the assertions that being "Southern" translates to a "shithole" or backwards redneck area is what is bullshit. Which NoVA clearly proves aren't correct.

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For the same reason people romanticize other groups that fought losing wars against modernity for the sake of outdated social institutions, such as the Carlists in Spain or the Samurais in Japan.

>>874326
I think the idea that the association and concept of being "Southern" in any context as immediately translating to being like what >>874365 said as "backwards" or a shitty is what bothers people.

>>874168
>Are you seriously trying to bring up Hispanics when they are fastest growing minority across the entire Eastern Seaboard? Holy shit, kill yourself.
Are you kidding me!?

>>871481
The north's primary purpose in having the civil war
was to prevent the south from controlling the west.
The north engaged in economic sabotage that crippled the south in order that they may leverage power and oversee the westward expansion.
If anyone honestly believes that "the civil war was about slavery", that's quite unfortunate.

>>874393
The Carlists were actually right tho

>>874326
>and whiteness

Dude what? South is the least white part of the nation.

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>>874340

>coalesced outside of the Chesapeake region from 1640 onwards

No.

The "obtain land and get rich quick" mentality for settlers had formed before they ever set foot there; when the Virginia Company drafted its charter. While starvation and fights with Indians briefly changed their first priority to survival they never lost their thirst for profit. The Virginia colony faltered, stagnated, and came close to being considered an abject failure until John Rolfe introduced Caribbean tobacco in 1612.

>enforcement of ecclesiastical laws and their willingness to impose the will of the state to stabilize tobacco prices/control smallholding farmers.

Separation of church and state and laissez-faire ideology did not even exist in English thought in the early 17th century. The fact that the early colony's government did not adhere to these enlightenment-era concepts is not a convincing counterargument to the notion that colonial Virginia culture was heavily individualistic.

>>871481
Because multiple reasons

A - America is currently the global hegemon. We cried for the massacre of the romanovs but if we were to be honest the USSR did better than could be expected from the Romanovs, but a different outcome could possible mean no Cold War, so we still feel sorrow.
As such, it could be guessed that if the CSA won the global political landscape would be vastly different, which would benefit anybody but America.

B- you still have southerners pushing the "honorable justification" shit and most people will believe anything that's repeated enough times, especially when it isn't within their interests to find out for certain.

C - plain simple teenage fueled edge and support for the underdog

T. Texan

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>>874483
>USSR did better than could be expected from the Romanovs

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This is now a fuck NOVA thread.

>>874488
I meant in the long term mate. Are you arguing that Russia could've held the geopolitical clout of the USSR at it's height well after the revolution?

>>874495
Yep. The myth about Russia being a backwater refusing to industrialize and that only the bolsheviks could do that is honestly just a product of red propaganda. The Bolsheviks did nothing except set Russia back 20 years.

>>873330
>The slaves were happy being slaves

Sounds like that guy on Fox saying women would rather be giving birth than working a 9-5.

I think the pride argument makes a lot of sense though.

Probably because in almost 250 years, the south developed something resembling a unique culture. A shitty one, but at least it is was not just copied from Europe. I see the South more alike Hispanic countries than as Americans.

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Because a few of us still identify with their states/Dixie over the US. We're rare but I am a Virginian before an American (we existed for nearly 200 years outside of the US) and north of the Mason-Dixon line is like a foreign country to me.

The CSA, slavery aside was our last chance to preserve our identities. We are not the United States of America anymore, we are the United Provinces of Greater Washington DC. The homogenous catch-all American "identity" is cancerous and artificial and I don't want anything to do with it.

I don't have anything against yankees besides their accents, though.

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>>874493
Silence SoVA filth!

>>874355

>It sounds like you're reading and copy-pasting from a textbook

They're highlights from my class notes. I took three courses on the history of Virginia when I attended college, and I review my notes periodically.

>quickly transformed from isolated agrarian settlements and plantation to many co-depenent townships and small cities.

I am arguing against this post >>873952 which mentions individualism being foreign to "early Virginians." The poster didn't define "early" so I decided to take it back to as early as possible. Further, Virginia had a smaller urban population and fewer roads and canals than the north even before the industrial revolution.

>>874536
Please stop.

>>874584
>CIA, Pentagon

If I didn't hate NoVa before I certainly do now.

>>874587
Virginia wasn't "hugely" as industrialized as the North but it bore the overwhelming burden of railroads, roads, sea and land traffic as well as the logistical supplying of the entire CSA during the Civil War.

Even before breaking from British rule, large cities developed in Virginia; it was just they were closely connected and developed alongside the plantation system in the rural areas.

>>874604
It's great isn't it? We have all the intelligence agencies, the Pentagon, and the two most important naval military ports and drydocks for the US navy.

VA fuck yeah.

>>874591
He's right though, south has very distinct culture.

Take the midwest in comparison, bland as fuck and completely devoid of any cultural uniqueness and I'm saying that as a midwesterner. The one exception is Chicago and that's pretty much it.

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>>874584
>RVA
>boring compared to spending 75% of your time sitting in traffic
Lol, map creator has no idea what he's talking about in general. Probably some teenage redditfag.

>>874619
There's nothing great about hosting the Jewish Big Brother agencies. Sounds like most of the country could be fixed if we just got rid of certain counties in NoVa and Maryland.

>>874624
Try again, SoVA. Have you been to places like Haymarket? Absolute shithole.

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>>874584

Go back to New Jersey and take your unsweetened ice tea, wet ham, plywood mcmansions, and smoking bans with you.

You are diluting and replacing the unique and vibrant culture of this state while living off the hard-earned money of ordinary Americans like a fattened tick.

Yankees get out.

>>871496

t. A southerner that wore ear plugs in high school

>>874584
>abloobloobloo there's Christians here :/
Nice Reddit map

>>874584
Is this shit from Reddit?

>>874629

One decent sized meteor strike would do us right...

>>874619
>Alphabet soup agencies and their cancerous Yankee employees living in McMansions and voting for Terry McAullife
>fuck yeah

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>>874619

>Even before breaking from British rule, large cities developed in Virginia

Unless you consider a town of less than 4,000 people to be a "large city," no they didn't.

>>871481
The south has a better aesthetic and a better culture. From a European perspective it seems like more of a "real" country than the US. Most people here, even very anti-racist people, have a lot of sympathy for the south. I fit that description desu, I'm often biased towards separatists and I'm a fan of southern culture.

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>>873273
>inject modern politics
yes, because I was the one who brought up the southern strategy in a thread about the fucking civil war.

>>873330
>At any point in time you can address what I said, friend
ok, let's start. OP asked why people outside the south and internationally would romanticize the Old South. You responded with school books, monuments, the Southern Strategy lol, and the Dunning school.

>school books, monuments
why would a favorable retelling of the old south in southern school books and by southern monuments change the mind of non-southerners?

>Dunning School
A small circle of ivy league historians did not create mass sympathies for the old south in the general public. This is on "Frankfurt School created modern degeneracy" level of conspiracies.

>Southern Strategy
Nixon's campaign strategy in the 68' and 72' election to win over the Wallace voter did not cause people to have some favorable view of the old south, nor has really anything to do with OP's question.

>>873688
Sorry but anyone who brings up the Southern strategy, Dunning School, and the Lost Cause Myth hits the trifecta of Neo-Abolitionist buzzwords. I called him a leftist because that's exactly where he gets his information. Fuck, no one even talks about the Lost Cause unless they subscribe to Neo-Abolitionist readings.


Ok, so let me now answer OP's question. Because the Old South is romantic. It reminds people of an older more authentic idealized America. After all Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and James Madison were all southern plantation aristocracy. This Arcadian imagination of the Old South resonates with a lot of people around the country and abroad, especially during the past century of mass industrialization, immigration, and wage labor. It must have some attraction if studying the antebellum south for 40 years turned Eugene Genovese from a little marxist New Yorker into a bible thumping dixie whistling agrarian.

>>871481
A little late to the party, but the only sympathy that people could have for the south is that their principles were solid. Most people support the CSA shit see it as a states rights issue rather than a slavery issue. Honestly though? They were traitors to the union and deserved what they got. If they would have just went along with it maybe Lincoln could have finished his plans to send the slaves back, and we wouldn't have half the trouble we have today.

>>874739
>peacefully leaving a voluntary union is betraying it

>>874749
This.

The CSA didn't use violence to leave the union, they used the vote.

The biggest mistake the south ever made was to commit to a conventional campaign instead of an insurrection.

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>>874584
>the captial, boring place. kinda pales to northern VA

Is this guy serious?

>>874117
the north should've created a "de-confederication" program like the Allies did with denazification. It seemed to be pretty successful in Germany, even through recent events. Also, they should've ensured black people had rights so they could get the fuck out of the south instead of setting the country up for more instability in the 1960's.

>>874792
A lot of them did get out of the south and are now shitting up the north as well.

>>874792
It's a classic case of short attention span biting people in the ass.

After the Civil War, everyone lost interest in Reconstruction within a few years, and it set the stage for several more generations of turmoil.

>>874792
>the old confederates=nazis meme
Being a Jeffersonian Republican mean you have to be sent to re-education camps? How american.

>so they could get the fuck out of the south
>implying the republicans wanted them out of the south

Enfranchising the blacks and keeping them there allowed for republican domination of the south during reconstruction. Also, northerners fucking hated blacks. Illinois,"the Land of Lincoln", had black codes prior to the war that outlawed blacks from even entering the state.

>>874792
That's exactly what happened though.

Do you know what the reconstruction was?

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>they have the best songs
>they have the best flag
>they have Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee
>Funny accents
>Everyone loves an underdog

10/10 would wish I was in dixie

>>873515
Here anon, you could use this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

Also, subpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

>>874507
Except I never said that, I just said in the long run you had a more powerful and more unstable Russia.
Yes the romanovs could have been theoretically better, but alt history isn't my forte nor is it the point of the thread.

>>874513
Working 9-5 is year round, birthing happens approximately once a year.
Which would you prefer?

>>873721
Well I don't want you to abide by me because youo didn't comprehend what I wrote.

To restate: NOT ALL BLACKS ARE NIGGERS.

Blacks that act punk and do crime and all the other bad shit are niggers.
Blacks that have jobs and are respectful to people and contribute to their societies (Which Niggers call "Acting White") are not.

I'm mostly left wing, but I support Science above all else. Science HAS NO POLITICAL ALIGNMENT, and no political correctness.

Thanks for playing though.

>>874949
>born with womb
>would rather let it slowly rot away than use it

Women "logic".

>>874940

Except the commenter actively defended that claim until everyone shat on them and they dropped it.

There are people who unironically believe the antebellum South was comparable to Nazi Germany.

>>874849
>Also, northerners fucking hated blacks.
People tend to forget this or be totally ignorant of it.
Slavery wasn't ended to free the blacks, it was ended to get rid of the blacks all together.

>>874980
I wasn't trying to make a political point, I was just pointing out the logic used in the statement.
I don't disagree or agree.

>>871481
>mostly about slavery
You're wrong their, son. 600k Americans didn't die for less than 2% of the population at the time. Besides, the worst race riots in American history happened in New York because nobody wanted to fight for something they didn't care about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

>>873229
May have lost but they took a stand for what they believed in.

>>874996
They are slightly comparable in the sense that they were both racist hellholes, metaphorical mouses that roared, that were completely obliterated in their overconfidence by their superior neighbors- and then all of a sudden forgiven because 'it was muh politiks, not the people! most people were innocent!'

So yeah, there's that- in case you forgot.

>>874660
>tumblr
Also kill yourself. The main economic exports in NoVA are IT, federal workers, defense contracts, and diplomats, that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.

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>>874936
pretty scrappy fighters too

>>875042
>The main economic exports in NoVA are IT,
For the feds....which means they're tax leeches
>federal workers
Tax leeches
>defense contracts
Tax leeches
>and diplomats
Tax leeches, foreign and domestic

>that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.

Right.

>>875087
>my arbitrary definition is what matters!
Sure thing, Cletus.

>>874663
t. yank scum

>>873834
One of the major reasons why the south seceded was because northern states were flat ignoring the fugitive slave act which said that they had to return runaway slaves. The Southerners were fine with using the federal government to strong arm yankees into supporting beliefs they don't agree with, but the moment the yankees push back it's "OMFG BIG EBIL GUBMINT" and secession.

It's as hypocritical as fighting for your freedom to own slaves. It's so blatantly obvious that you'd have to be a meth-addled southern bumkin to not see it

>>875037

>racist

Literally every country was racist in 1860.

>hellhole

Meanwhile in the North immigrant workers were treated like disposable tools and frequently died in industrial accidents, farmers sent their daughters off to work for rapey mill owners to pay their debts, alcoholism was rampant, and great plagues, riots, and fires frequently ravaged its densely packed urban centers.

Just adding a little perspective. You know, in case you forgot.

>>875042

>that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.

Three of the four you listed get paid high salaries through federal tax dollars, all four if you take into consideration that those IT workers are typically employed by some government agency. The Capital is like a mini Muscovy, taxing the rest of the country for the sake of a bureaucratic elite of questionable value.

>>875139
you realize that the constitution all the states agreed upon required fugitive slaves to be returned?

>Article IV Sec. 2 Clause 3
>No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due.

>>875149
>bureaucratic elite
Nice joke.

>>875139

Yes how dare Southerners ask that the federal government enforce the law on its books that they compromised to obtain.

>>875150
And you realize that the southern states were not nearly the consistently defenders of states rights that they claimed to be, right?

MUH STATES RIGHTS was a diplomatic ploy, a rebranding effort when it became obvious to everyone that nobody in Europe was buying their confederate bullshit about the natural inferiority of negros.

>>873494
change slave to wageslave and you just described the union too.

>>875166
EXACTLY. Southerners only hate the federal government when it's someone other than them pulling the levers. It's hypocrisy at its most rank.

>>875164

Six of the ten wealthiest counties in the United States surround the capital.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

The source of that money is federal tax dollars.

Is there anything else I can spoon feed you?

>>875181
>this has nothing to do with all the federal employees employed by various important state departments and agencies
>its "SOLELY TAXES GUYS"
Kill yourself.

>>875169
what? states rights were defined by the constitution, if it explicitly said the states were required to do something, then it wasn't a state right.

>nobody in Europe was buying their confederate bullshit about the natural inferiority of negros.

are you retarded? everyone thought negroes were naturally inferior, north, south, and europe.

>>875149
>Meanwhile in the North immigrant workers were treated like disposable tools and frequently died in industrial accidents, farmers sent their daughters off to work for rapey mill owners to pay their debts, alcoholism was rampant, and great plagues, riots, and fires frequently ravaged its densely packed urban centers.

But that changed, thanks in large part to the democratic process.

The southern constitution was specifically rewritten to make slavery a permanent aspect of the economy, and would have made emancipation effectively impossible.

That's how progress works.

>>875175

Except the fugitive slave law was written down and agreed upon by every state, while secession was a legal gray area that wasn't resolved until 4 years after the war was over by federal justices in a 5-3 decision.

>>875194

Where the fuck do you think the money for those "various important state departments and agencies" comes from?

>>875181
You know there are plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment right? You are also aware that Northern Virginia for decades is one of the fastest growing economic areas; especially in Fairfax and Loudoun counties and cities like Vienna, Tyson's Corner and Reston which are heavily suited for growing businesses.

Federal involvement with the state is one part of it, but claiming the entirety of Virginia's wealth or affluence is solely from the federal government is hyperbolic bullshit.

>>871481
Civil War was about the right to secede from the union. The slavery issue commenced during the war because Abe thought it would be useful in order to win the war.

>>875213
So IT companies and tech firms that deal with filtering and hosting over 80% of the nation's internet and broadband services has nothing to do with? :^)

>>875213
The money tree fairies, silly!

>>875209
>Except the fugitive slave law was written down and agreed upon by every state
And a classic example of how the southern states are flaming hypocrites about their love/hatred of the federal government.

>while secession was a legal gray area
The real irony is that emancipation only became politically feasible under the emergency war-time powers of the president. Had the southern states not seceded, slavery probably would have endured.

>federal justices in a 5-3 decision.
yeah states can't secede. The goal of forming the United States was to form a more perfect union [than the shitty Articles of Confederation which is every right-wingers wet dream of a government except for the fact that in practice it's literally unworkable] and seceding because you don't like how the democratic process works is not a more perfect union.

>>875200
>The southern constitution was specifically rewritten to make slavery a permanent aspect of the economy, and would have made emancipation effectively impossible.

yeah bullshit, provide a source.

>>875238

"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."
Article I, Section 9, Clause 4

"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."
Article IV, Section 2

"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3

Now sit down and shut the fuck up

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>>871497
>Western world is about to collapse

West is only an idea, and changes like the one you're talking about take so long to happen that only historians notice them.

>>875217

>You know there are plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment right?

Let's list every Fortune 500 companies in NoVa and see how true that is, shall we?


>No. 31, Freddie Mac, McLean, revenue of $80.6 billion

finance, taken over by the feds after being bailed out

>No. 98, General Dynamics, Falls Church, $31.5 billion

military contractor

>No. 120, Northrop Grumman, Falls Church, $25.2 billion

military contractor

>No. 127, Capital One Financial, McLean, $23.8 billion

finance, not government affiliated

>No. 153, AES, Arlington, $18.2 billion

energy company

>No. 176 Computer Sciences (CSC), Falls Church

major IT provider for the federal government

>No. 240, SAIC, McLean, $11.2 billion

military contractor

>No. 421, NII Holdings, Reston, $6.1 billion

cellphone service provider for Brazil? no government affiliation

>No. 436, Booz Allen Hamilton, McLean, $5.9 billion

management consulting, 99% of the company's revenue comes from the U.S. Federal government http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/10/news/booz-allen-hamilton-leak/index.html

>No. 453, ITT Exelis, McLean, $5.5 billion

military contractor

>No. 467, Gannett Co., McLean, $5.4 billion

newspaper publisher, no government affiliation


8/11 of NoVa's Fortune 500 companies are supported by federal tax dollars. Tell me again about all the great things NoVa produces for our country.

>>875259
none of those would stop a confederate state from ending slavery, just the CSA congress.

>>875296
NoVa BTFO

>>875296
Go read a Forbes magazine, you autistic monkey.

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>>875298
Southern contempt for the federal government only happens when they're not the ones pulling the levers. When it's their cause they're more than happy to bring down the heavy fist of government. They are literally the worlds biggest hypocrites about the issue.

And no confederate state would have been allowed to end slavery, not any more than a Republican state could ignore Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.

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>>875325

You're the one who should be reading considering you didn't realize that NoVa's economy is by-and-large supported by ever increasing federal spending until I spelled it out for you. That's about as common knowledge as it gets.

Get learned, you government tit sucker.

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>>875198
>muh states rights
Yeah, I get it. Southerners are totally hypocrites about their love of states rights. You don't have to keep hammering the point home.

>are you retarded? everyone thought negroes were naturally inferior, north, south, and europe.
No, I'm fucking educated you twit. Europe emancipated their slaves around the time New England did (late 18th century). They thought Napoleon was a vicious tyrant for bringing it back. They weren't about to listen to that Confederate bullshit, which is why not a single fucking European state acknowledged the Confederacy as being anything but a pack of robber barons goading their impoverished masses into the slaughter because god forbid they might have to make payroll.

The south was literally fucking isolated in the world, which is why the union was able to beat them down with one hand tied behind its back.

>>874241
I don't know about NoVa, but Austin is very Texan. Texas has a few fairly distinct cultures, such as Central, East, South, West, and Panhandle. Austin is not very out of place, they just like to say they are.

>>875236

>classic example of how the southern states are flaming hypocrites about their love/hatred of the federal government.

How is it hypocrisy to want the government to enforce laws the whole country agreed to in a long and drawn-out compromise? Federal government is neither all good nor all bad, and to pretend that one must believe it to be either one or the other to avoid being a hypocrite is moronic. The CSA didn't object to the existence of federal government, they resented the capital because they had lost significant political influence there and desired self-determination as a remedy.

>yeah states can't secede.

Yes they can, the SCOTUS just decided they first need to get the approval of the other states to do so.

>Articles of Confederation which is every right-wingers wet dream of a government

Not even the most stalwart anti-federalist wanted to return to the articles of confederation after the Constitution has been passed. Quit assuming everyone who disagrees with you is retarded, it reflects poorly on your ability to understand nuance.

>>875584
Not that anon but most people did think of blacks as inferior. Slavery was just economically outdated and looked down upon as barbaric.

>>875579
You are literally a fucking retarded cherry-picking piss-ant:

Iridium Communications
Morcom International, Inc.
NeuStar
RCN Corporation
SkyTerra
SpaceQuest, Ltd.
t/Space
Transmitter Location Systems
XO Communications

This is just a few among many.

Kill yourself.

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>>875602
>I don't know about NoVa, but Austin is very Texan.

>>875296
Where's ThinkGeek? Where's CustomInk? Or Mars Inc? You know there are several Fortune 500 companies in NoVA that do telecommunications, internet/broadband services, e-commerce, and finance and aren't government contractors right?

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>>875631

I'm not cherry picking at all, I was refuting >>875217 's claim that

>plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment

When in fact it's only 3 out of 11.

FURTHERMORE

>Iridium Communications

"The service revenue to governments made up 23% of Iridium's revenues in 2012"

>Morcom International

"Morcom serves as an adviser and project leader to many governments, businesses, and institutions"

>NeuStar

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-business/wp/2015/03/05/neustar-poised-to-lose-major-contract/

>SpaceQuest

"SpaceQuest's customers include US and foreign universities, NASA, the US Air Force, the Canadian Space Agency, commercial aerospace companies, and foreign developers of microsatellites"

>t/Space

defunct, but "In September 2004 t/Space was one of eleven companies selected by NASA to conduct preliminary concept studies for the Crew Exploration Vehicle and human lunar exploration, for which it received a US$3 million contract"

>Transmitter Location Systems

subsidiary of SSCI, military contractor that builds drones
Are we done here?

>>875673
>Morcom
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>NeuStar
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>SpaceQuest
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>t/space
Where did it say exclusively government contractor?
>Are we done here?
I don't know, are you faggot?

>>875650

I was going by this list from 2013

http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/article/23-virginia-companies-on-fortune-500

>ThinkGeek
>Customink

Those are not Fortune 500 companies. http://fortune.com/fortune500/

>Mars Inc.

headquartered in Washington state.

>>875673
>Iridium Communications
Also, where does it say exclusively government contractor?

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>>875622
>How is it hypocrisy to want the government to enforce laws the whole country agreed to in a long and drawn-out compromise?
Because you love the government when it works for you and hate it when it works for people you hate.

>they resented the capital because they had lost significant political influence there and desired self-determination as a remedy.
They were buttblasted over losing an election to a compromise moderate who vowed to preserve slavery if it meant keeping the union together (while preventing its spread to new states) and that was enough to make the southerners collectively flip their shit. It was the southerners who were given concessions at every turn, who couldn't handle the truth that slavery was rotting their economy and driving them from what was once the wealthiest states in the union to the poorest, because by that point cotton barons had basically taken over the southern state governments. They couldn't handle being on the losing end of the democratic process and sought to rectify that situation with violence. They were charlatans and con men fighting for their bottom line, and southerners to this day can't bring themselves to admit that everything their grandpappy fought and died for was a farce.

> it reflects poorly on your ability to understand nuance.
Says the guy defending a pack of losers. It reflects poorly on your ability to make sound predictions about reality when you go so far out of your way to defend such a lost cause.

>>875692
>Mars Inc
>"Headquarters: McClean Virginia"

>>875698
B
TOLD
F
O

>>875602
Austin is nothing but libcuck SJW transplants from California.

>>875673
>>875296
There's currently 30 Fortune 500 companies in Virginia proper. Of those, the majority are in NoVA thus far and the majority of business in NoVA while substantially drawn from said Fortune 500 companies has its main share taken from smaller companies because there is a literal shit ton of IT firms and telecommunications or broadband/cable service companies here.

NoVA is literally called the new Silicon Valley or Silicon Valley 2.0 because many of these companies are relocating from California to the NoVA/DC metropolitan area.

Also just going by NoVA:

AES Corporation - Energy/Power
Capital One - Finances
Computer Sciences Corporation - Information Technology (split into two smaller companies; one for commercial sector, another for public so it doesn't count as an exclusive Federal dependent contractor)
Delta Tucker Holdings Inc - PMC/Security Services
Exelis Inc. - Federal/military contractor
General Dynamics - Federal/military contractor
Leidos Inc - Federal/military contractor
Northrup Grumman - Federal/military contractor
OSC Inc - Private-sector and also federal contractor
SAIC - Private-sector and also federal contractor
Graham Holdings Company - Private sector/Media
Tegna Inc - Private sector cable TV/broadband/media services
Tower Watson & Co - Private sector venture Business
Beacon Roofing Supply - Private sector property management
Hilton Worldwide Inc - Private sector hospitality/services (hotels/resorts/etc...)
NVR Inc - Private sector financing and mortgage

There's a shit ton more of companies that have nothing to do with the Big Fed but they aren't Fortune 500 but my point here unlike the other anon is despite what you think, the Fortune 500 ones aren't making the lion share of revenue in Virginia.

Also I totally disagree with your stance of military contractors being "parasitic" because they are a vital part of our defense industry and important to our technological advantage as the premier world superpower.

>>875796
Not him but how in the fuck can you defend the absurd amount of money the government is paying the contractors for literal DOGSHIT? F-22 is an unmitigated disaster.

>>874719
I'm saying that the Southern strategy relied upon much of the same fears as blacks running rampant as much of the CSA's motivation to secede was. I'm saying it is part of a largely unbroken line of CSA sympathy throughout history.

People outside the South romanticised it largely as part of the reunionification efforts post Reconstruction that was basically "slavery wasn't that bad, and at least the South were white"
You can read "The Romance of Reunion" on this very issue.

The Dunning School and Lost Causers dominated popular histories of the Civil War. This is incontrovertible fact.

I don't know what a "neo-abolitionist" is and I don't understand why it would be a bad thing to align yourself with abolitionists. You're not disagreeing with anything I'm saying, I'm just reminding you that slavery was a part of the antebellum

>>875622
Speaking of the SCOTUS, I like how you're completely ignoring the Dred Scott decision
Northern States had just as much of a "muh states right" argument as Southerners

>>875805
>F-22A Raptor
>"dogshit"
You're thinking of the F-35.

>>875689
>>875695

>exclusively

If you'll go back and read my posts you'll notice I never once made this claim.

I'm tired of doing your research for you, especially since you care so little about this conversation that you provided me with a list of companies that receive government contracts as examples of businesses which aren't supported by the federal government.

>>875698

>Because you love the government when it works for you and hate it when it works for people you hate.

Doesn't everybody? Modern Democrats support state's rights when it comes to marijuana but are against it when it comes to abortion, and vice versa for modern Republicans. Those danged hypocrites!

>They were buttblasted...rectify that situation with violence

This applies to the Deep South but not the Upper South. As was mentioned earlier the Upper South (NC, TN, VA) did not vote to secede after the attack on Fort Sumter until the federal government tried to conscript troops from those states. The Upper South's secession was triggered by the federal government assembling a military to force the Deep South to remain in the Union against the will of South Carolina's citizenry. For the record, I blame South Carolina for the whole war in the first place.

>Says the guy defending a pack of losers...lost cause

I'm not following here. How does offering apologetics for a portion of the losing side of a war mean I can't make sound predictions [did you mean observations?] about reality?

>>875830
>I never once made this claim
t. strawman pepe

>>875818

You wont see me defending Dred Scott, if that's what you're trying to get me to do. And yes, I'd have supported the rights of Northern states to secede if they wanted to after that decision (and it was discussed in abolitionist circles iirc) but nothing ever came of it because hardly any of the remaining western territories were suitable for plantation slavery anyways.

>>875811
>I don't understand why it would be a bad thing to align yourself with abolitionists
It's not, but it leads to a biased understanding of history. Many neoabolitionist historians like Foner and McPherson fall into this trap.

>You're not disagreeing with anything I'm saying
Yes I am. You're tying together various events in order to craft a narrative. You keep saying that the Romanticism of the old south must be because of some latent racism. I disagree. We romanticize Ancient Greece and Rome, both of which were brutal slave societies, yet we just ignore the bad in order to focus on the good. The same can easily be said about the romanticism of the old south.

>>873898
SIC

>>875909

SEMPER

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>>875673
>>875579
>>875296
>>875181
>tfw part of the "bureaucratic elite" citizenry
Different anon but stay salty, man. It feels fucking good.

>>875928
Not them, but you're living off my fucking taxes. Get a real job.

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>>875931
I have a job and I love that your taxes are building up and going into our state coffers, buddy.

>>875955
>tfw my taxes are literally funding some parasites who shiptost anime on a marxist board at 2 AM

That's it, IRS needs to go.

>>875888
All history is biased, get out of here with that Rankean shit and maybe pay attention to any historiography post 1920. Are you suggested Foner, the leading world expert on Reconstruction, is able to be dismissed so easily because he is "biased"?

No, I'm saying that the romanticism of the Old South obfuscates the racism that was core to their functioning. Ditto Ancient Greece/Rome. And yes, continuing racism does play a role in this.

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>>875959
>marxist board
This is a vietnamese finger painting gallery, you scumbag.

>>875796
>Also I totally disagree with your stance of military contractors being "parasitic" because they are a vital part of our defense industry and important to our technological advantage as the premier world superpower.

t. F-35 contractor

Of course some of it's useful, but the amount of makework bloat is obscene.

>>875971
>Are you suggested Foner, the leading world expert on Reconstruction, is able to be dismissed so easily because he is "biased"?

Lol, someone could have said the exact same thing about Dunning in the 1930s. But yeah, Foner is biased as fuck.

>No, I'm saying that the romanticism of the Old South obfuscates the racism that was core to their functioning.

You could say the same about the southern founding fathers (Washington, Madison, Jefferson, etc.) But the idea that racism plays a part in the romanticism of the founding fathers is a reach, and like your earlier posts, would require you to craft some narrative.

>>876021
>t. F-35 contractor
0/10

>>876022
You're not addressing any of my points. The writing of history exists in the construction of narrative from a set of events. Even objectivists like Himmelfarb/Elton admit to this. It's not a critique, it's a nothing statement.

>>873195
>Southern Strategy don't real
The fucking RNC chair admitted completely you fucking mongoloid

>>875973
No you fucking troglodyte, it's a Trostkyan cuckoldry pen.

>>871481
Hicks gotta hick

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>>876043
No you piss-ant sub-human anti-social degenerate right-wing anal-plugged shit stain, its a Mongolian dance mural smoke tent forum.

>>873721
>but I really can't abide reading someone who pretends to be left-wing calling Black Virginians "niggers".
As a commie
Stop being such a puss especially when he qualified his statements by pointing out blacks=!niggers

>>875796
>Also I totally disagree with your stance of military contractors being "parasitic" because they are a vital part of our defense industry and important to our technological advantage as the premier world superpower.
Yes and not.

The point about the critique of military industrial complex is that the country shouldn't lose control over it.

And USA has lost it several times already, especially when it came to aircrafts for some reason.

I'll give you very interesting example - F-111. When they've asked a guy who later supervised the development of very successful F-15 and F-16 about that plane he said that it's missed concept and won't work for shit. They decided to ignore him of course. But let alone actual usefulness of this plane, let's just say that it didn't work at all.

There was a competition for it. 2 major proposition which were later evaluated "very carefully" were Boeing's and General Dynamics'. After evaluating it, they've decided Boeing's proposition is better. McNamara said to evaluate it the second time. So they've did. Boeing was better. And third. And 4th. And then daughter of one of the member of commission committed suicide with 20 ga shotgun so did I think wife of another one(same weapon), journalist that researched the topic(and had a romance with Kennedy) of that competition got her home looted by GD thugs(source - CIA), Kennedy was killed, the main witness committed suicide with 20 ga shotgun(oh dear...). General Dynamics was chosen in n-th evaluation and McNamara didn't saw a single reason to evaluate it once more. The plane would end up being non-functional either way but at least it's likely that Boeing's proposition would end up in less than 30% of airframes being lost in accidents and some combat record. Needless to say, F-15 and F-16 were developed to be as non-F-111 as possible.

Is this how it should work? No, I don't thiink so.

>>876031
>The writing of history exists in the construction of narrative from a set of events.

And I think yours is bullshit. As I explained in my first response, you just parrotted a couple irrelevant talking points and explained away anyone's admiration for the old south as them being tricked or racism. Judging from your posts you seem to fall in line with the Foner camp and have a very negative view of the CSA. Which is why your answer to the question of "why people would like the CSA" was going to be obviously terrible biased drivel.

>>876062
Okay now you devolved your post into rambling /x/ tier conspiracy theory nonsense.

>>876062
Isn't there an F-35 thread on /k/ you should be shitting in?

>>876066
Outside of linking Kennedy's death to GD all of this is 100% factual.

>>876064
But that's precisely what I did not say. You are simplifying my argument because you don't have one. Part of the Old South's appeal lies in the whitewashing of its racism. Starting from the end of Reconstruction (and indeed the end of the civil war) Southern revisionist historians made it their duty to paint a prettier picture of the South in order to defend themselves as noble, honourable, etc. They deliberately contrasted upheaval in the South caused by Reconstruction with a more idyllic antebellum Old South that was a fiction. They threw up monuments fucking everywhere to honour the Confederate dead. They wrote school curricula and aggressively lobbied for its inclusion. Later, the Dunning School picked up this and used it as de facto justification of Jim Crow laws and segregation. The Southern Strategy played upon these same fears of blacks running rampant to the detriment of whites. All of these things share the championing of a stable racial hierarchy over the uncertainty of black enfranchisement. This was one of the major reasons for succession - the preservation of slavery, and the racial hierarchy slavery enshrined.
You can read any number of books on this because this is literally Civil War 101. As mentioned earlier, I like the Romance of Reunion, but there's also "Ghosts of the Confederacy" by Gaines M. Foster, "Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory", by David Blight, or maybe even "Origins of the New South" by C Vann Woodward.
These are not talking points. This is a brief summary of a whole bunch of historical research.

Yes, I have a negative view of the CSA. It seceded to preserve slavery, my friend. You keep falling back on being able to dismiss something b/c it is "biased", even after abandoning that line of attack because you clearly know nothing about serious historical study, as demonstrated as your one-sentence throwaway of Foner.

>>876070
/x/ pls go

>>871496
There's an entire board of such people on this very site.

all forms of americanism are extremelly appealin to the westeners and asians.
old.west, yankland, dixie, texan,new yorker. Its surreal tier made up tier cultures straight in the last two centuries, also including todays.americanism.
Its like catholicism for medieval europeans. like a supraculture working there, from southern egipt tolappland

>>876098
Nothing in that monologue even attempted to answer OP's question. Which is why all my posts have been shitting on your repeated irrelevant talking points. Also stop conflating Dunning with the Lost Cause. Dunning really only deals with reconstruction and doesn't need to rely on southern writers for his information. There were plenty of Liberal Republicans and Northern Democrats who had major grievances with radical reconstruction. Go read some first hand accounts by Daniel Henry Chamberlain, he had a much better understanding of reconstruction than any modern historian considering he lived through it.

>>876170
I have explicitly stated the similarities between the Lost Cause and the Dunning School. Your refutation to my analysis that draws together the work of several varied historians is "go read this primary source who thought that blacks should not have been given the vote".
I apologise for taking you seriously - I mean you're using "radical reconstruction" unironically

>>876180
>doesn't know the term radical reconstruction is a historical term to differentiate it from Johnson's moderate reconstruction
>All first hand sources contrary to my beliefs are biased and untrustworthy even if they were written by a guy who led republican reconstruction in the south, Foner knows better

If you actually ever read Woodward you'd know that he thought most modern academic historians were revisionist commies.

>>876200
>implying that radical reconstruction is a term used by anyone anymore outside of the Dunning School throwbacks
>recommending a primary source who "has a better understanding of reconstruction" without accounting for the source's context

...I have read Woodward, but it seems clear that you're unfamiliar with basic historical analysis
You cannot use a single primary source as an authority on anything
You learn this in your first history class
I don't want to have to explain basic history methodology to you

>>876217
>blaming basic US history terminology on the Dunning boogeyman

Jesus Christ, he really is your version of /pol/s Frankfurt School Cabal. Lemme guess, does the term radical republican also trigger you?

>>876224
Of course, you immediately drop my other concerns because of the term Radical Reconstruction's association with the Dunning School, which you claim as "basic" when people normally use Congressional Reconstruction precisely because it lacks the scaremongering associations/isn't immediately apparent that it refers to Reconstruction argued for by the Radical Republicans


Please
Go
To
School

>>876235
What other concerns? 20 posts deep and you are still incapable of answering OPs question with anything other than Salon tier muh lost cause big dun propaganda

>>876244
Are you incapable of reading? Is most of the current scholarship on how the Civil War is treated today "Salon tier"? Please, read this book, for example, or the work of David Blight, or Gaines Foster. Is Yale "Salon tier"?
http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=160

I've given several sources. You have given one primary source from a man who thought blacks should not have been given the vote. You are not engaging with any sort of intellectual honesty. You seem to not even have a high school education in the topic. You are hung up on claims of "bias" as if means anything significant. People support the CSA still today because of deliberate efforts on behalf of ex-Confederates to paint the CSA in a positive light and absolve it of any outright racism, preferring a naturalised hierarchy. This whitewashing of the South, painted in contrast to the upheaval that black enfranchisement brought, continues in various forms through to today. I have stated this several times already and provided evidence for such. OP's confusion seems to be over why people support the South, despite the war being fought over slavery. I am arguing that the war in the historical imagination has been, thanks to concerted efforts, recuperated into the Lost Cause, rather than slavery proper.

Please, just go away and stop wasting my time

>>871481
>USA secede from Britain
>muh freedom
>South secede from USA
>fucking rebels
I seriously don't see difference.

>>876280
They lost.

>>876280
Neither did they.

>>876280
“Rebellion against a king may be pardoned, or lightly punished, but the man who dares to rebel against the laws of a republic ought to suffer death.”

John Adams

>>876280
US seceded from the brits for tax evasion. Youd have to be a retard to do anything for "freedom".

>>876289

Yet another way in which Adams fell short of Washington's greatness.

>>876261
Jesus, what is your problem?
I've been watching this little argument bump itself to first page for a while now, and all you've done is try to put forward opinion pieces/books as sources and insult anyone who disagrees with you. You've never said anything of substance other than insisting everything is whitewashing or outright racism.

Were your family slaves or something? That's the only thing I can think of to explain this level of butthurt.

>>876317
...I haven't referenced a single opinion piece. These are all like, books that encompass great swathes of historical research. They're all put out by academic presses and are secondary sources - you know, stuff you often use in history as shorthand because it's not really worth me going into primary sources on 4chan of all places.
I'm saying that the CSA has been deliberately and conspicuously whitewashed, by a variety of factors, starting from like, the year after the war ended with Edward A Pollard publishing The Lost Cause: A New Southern History of the War of the Confederates. These histories were immensely popular and carried immense popular sway, and this romantic ideal of an antebellum idyll is often reached to in the face of anxieties about the South's position. Hence why I linked it to the Dunning School and the Southern Strategy, which were explicit efforts to play off white fears over blacks moving up their societal position.
This is my answer to the OP's question - that through concerted effort, the CSA's history has been whitewashed in popular memory, so people don't immediately make the link to it and slavery.

The other guy - of which there is only one - thinks you arbitrarily dismiss leading historians in the field as "biased" which, I think, demonstrates a lack of familiarity with historical research at a level past grade school. Of course Foner is biased! All historians carry their bias. I don't actually agree with some of Woodward's conclusions, for example, but I'm not going to throw him out wholesale because of "bias"

Also I'm a frustrated grad student procrastinating writing a paper on this topic and would actually appreciate someone to discuss this with - how it formed is really interesting! - and it's disappointing when turns out to not really know what they're talking about

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>>873721
The Union used conscription of non citizen immigrant workers. People who had not yet under gone the naturalization process. It caused a number of riots. I would argue that conscription can only be fair if the subject of it is enfranchised by the actor who is doing the conscription. I would even go as far to say that conscription of a non enfranchised population is a form of slavery.

>>876290
When the strong majority of coinage in the area is spanish reales ( or rather bits of spanish reales) and the British tax collectors would only take British coinage revolting over taxes make a touch more sense. This means that to pay said taxes the effective cost increases a not small amount because of money changers fees.

The truth in the matter is that the Navigation Acts were rather unreasonable when they were first passed, Spanish colonies were just more viable trading partners then GB and her colonies.

>>875564
They would've banned it due to international pressure in 10-15 years like Brazil did

>>876022
The old south wasn't any more racist than US itself as been t.b.h.
>trail of tears
>allowing Jim crow
>sending drugs into urban neighborhoods
>nuking japan

>>874936
I had always wondered why I liked the south better. You've just summarize it all in one post.

>>876105
t. contractor

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>>876296
But he was still twice the man Thomas Jefferson was, and 10 times the man John Calhoun was.

Fucker convinced a Bostonian jury to pardon the British soldiers guilty of the Boston Massacre. He was one of the most important early voices of the revolution, and one of the key figures who both united the colonies AND edited the Declaration of Independence.

Plus he loved his wife and stayed true to her even when they were away for years. He loved his children but the revolution took so much of his time that he couldn't be there for them, and he was bitterly resentful of it. He graduated Harvard with a degree in law, practiced and supported himself his whole life without ever owning a single slave, and remained personally opposed to the institution his entire life, He was by all accounts a stand up guy (something Jefferson himself could never admit)

By his own admission he was an inelegant, squealing little piglet of a man, but the man simply couldn't be faulted for falling short of George Washington's gravitas (the guy was 6'2", which towering over the average American at the time) because NOBODY in the history of U.S governance has ever come close to matching Washington for historical significance

Except maybe Abraham Lincoln, of course.

>>876791
people like you are the reason propaganda is so effective

>>877214
>opinions don't exist

>>877191
>fucking your cousin

Top kek

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>>877236
>>fucking your cousin
Wasn't a big deal back then
Still isn't that big of a deal, genetically speaking.
And it's still way less morally repugnant than raping your slaves
Especially considering how strong their marriage was.

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>>876624
Not likely. Slavery was too strongly coded into the Confederate constitution. It's likely that they would have spread slave owning plantation culture all over the south and the caribbean, continuously ramping up the slave trade to take advantage of emerging technologies in need of line operators while the white middle class continued shrinking into poverty and destitution, leading to population decline. If the confederates won, half of what we now call the United States would look more like Rhodesia than it does today, and probably would have eventually lead to violent overthrow just like it did in what is now called Mogadishu

The cruelest irony of the southern cause is that it was also the anti-white cause, because it would have seen the white population reduced to a tiny land owning class amidst a sea of colored folk, who will eventually decide that they don't need the land owners any more.

>>877236
>>opinions don't exist
Your father doesn't exist. He walked out on you and mom and that's why you fill the void in your soul (where dad's love should have been) with lost cause jingoism and character worship.

>>877306
>Mogadishu
Zimbabwe is what I obviously meant

>>877335
>(You)

>>877256
>rape

I hate being the cliche smug yankeeshit, but whenever I've been in the south I've found the degree to which they paper over slavery really unsettling and off putting.

I was in Charleston for a wedding at a plantation this week, and the whole thing was held in front of a row of slave houses which just seems like a bizarre choice for your wedding. And at the former slave market the historical context plaque made no mention of slaves, just "workers."

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>>877612
It's called whitewashing.

Southerners are infamous for being good at it.

>>876346
I wonder if anyone has ever done a comparative study of Confederate and German attempts to alter history after losing the war.

>>874980
look up some of the weird shit that happens to a body during pregnancy, I don't blame them.

>>877306

Virginia came close to banning slavery twice as a result of some court cases. It was certainly plausible, and maybe even probable that they'd have banned it after the mechanization of agriculture made using large amounts of laborers unnecessary