How can an island nation be so shit at naval warfare? Their entire

>>835558
I don't know a lot of world history (that's why I lurk her) but didn't they beat the ish out of Russia?

>>835568
Winning against late Tsarist Russia is like winning a cagefight against an infant

Remember the Russo Japanese war?

The IJN at its height was one of the best three navies in the world.

In all honesty, Japan was just unlucky. Yi Sun-shin was a genius and as far as the US goes, it wasn't a fair fight at all. Their initial operations in the Pacific following Pearl Harbor were well planned and executed.

>>835594
Was Pearl Harbor a Barbarossa-tier mistake?

>America comes right the fuck back at Japan without missing a beat, despite losing exactly as many ships as Japan wanted to take out
>Hitler declares war on America, turning the Pacific and European general conflicts into a world war

Even if the attack on Pearl Harbor was a total success the U.S. Still would've won due to industrial power

>>835558
I guess it's because of the fighting happened mainland. Against each other. Giving no real reason to improve the fleet. Also im not that good on japanese naval history. Got any exemples of failures by sea? Except for the invasion of korea.

>>835606
Pearl Harbor was not planned by the Navy, mind you.

>>835568
>fought Tang dynasty over Korea, get rekt
>fought mongols and won, with help of le meme win
>fought Ming dynasty and gooks over Korea, get rekt
>industrialize
>fought Qing dynasty, won
>fought Russians, won
>got recognized as a modern power
>fought murika, get rekt

Conclusion: Japs are mediocore at naval warfare, bad for an island nation. They love to challenge much more powerful people. If these people underestimate the Japs, they'd get rekt. If these people are corrupt and do stupid shit with their navies, they'd rekt the Japs.

>>835615
So it was Barbarossa-tier, since every qualified person advised against it?

The japs were doomed from the beginning

>>835558
They're good though but it's clear they're second place, and that second place is a long way away from first.

>>835606
Barbarossa was one of the most brillisnt manuevers in history and the only reason anything went wrong is because Mussolini delayed it.

>>835606
It was a mistake borne out of desperation. To the leadership, they had no choice. What were they going to do? Pull entire armies out of China in the midst of a war? Give up Indochina? They didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

It was resources that killed the IJN. Japan started the war to gain raw materials with the idea the war would only last for a year or so. The Military Cabinet knew they didn't have enough petroleum and raw materials for a protracted war, but they refused to bid for peace since they wanted to keep the land (resources) they'd already gobbled up at the height of their expansion in SE Asian and the Pacific. In the end, the IJN didn't have the fuel or replacement equipment (due to lack of materials) to continue, but again.. refused to give up.

>>835639
Deep battle was a superior strategy to Blitzkrieg. it's that simple.

>>835642
What they realistically should have done was slow down expansion and consolidate/invest what they did have to grow wealth.

There was desperation in the plan, but I think greed played a role too. Japan wanted the cake and eat it too, but it severely backfired. They really banked on America coming to them with a deal.

>>835621
Do you even know the differences between the first and second invasions of Korea and the first and second invasions of Korea?

The first invasion of Korea was decent but they got bogged down with people just wanting to occupy towns. The second invasion was wreckt though.

And the Second Invasion of the Mongols was not a meme win since the mongols landed a shit ton of warriors and that hurricane only devastated them after they got their asses kicked

>>835607
Yes but japan would've achieved its goals in the short term, most likely keeping huge swaths of territory after defeat, instead of the US knocking at its door with nukes.

>>835558
There were lots of Japanese pirates hunting along the coast of ancient China. They were skilled enough to do that (and Chinese navy back then were mostly built for river battle lol, no contest at all).

>>835639
I assume you're referring to Mussolini opening up the Greek campaign? Because that's untrue. The Germans invaded in the third week of June because that was the first point when the roads were sufficiently dry to support heavy armor. Spring came very late in '41, which is what saved Russia.

>losing to the united states when outnumbered
>shit
Idk senpai

>>835685
I don't think they had much of a choice, with out oil they weren't going to consolidate anything, their warmachine would have broken down and Japan would end up being pushed out of all it's holding. Really Japan's mistake was trying to conquer China, getting bogged down in China consumed way too many resources and turned American opinion against them/

>>836008
Once PH failed to hit oil, shipyards, and carriers the war was over for the Japs. Not that they were bad, their entire grand strategy relied on a single fulcrum and they fucked it up.

>>836019
I should say it was also a stroke of great luck for the US that parts of the fleet were at sea at the time of the attack. Not entirely their fault.

>>835685
Consolidation of what they had was the Japanese war aim from the early 30s onward.

It was the reason for the invasion of China, and the occupation of Indochina, and the attack on Pearl Harbor.

>>835997
Thank you. You're doing god's work fighting this stupid meme history.

>>836033
This is why we need /ww2g/, perhaps we can skip some of the repetition.

Japan was a sufficient naval power, enough to encircle british fleets in the Pacific time and time again and force them out of naval headquarters like Hong Kong and Singapore.

What hurt Japan was that Aircraft Carriers were now the new premier ship of any WW2 fleet, and Japan simply couldn't crank out carriers at the rate Americans did.

this was further exacerbated by the shortage of oil and scrap metal they were originally receiving from the US, Which made the conquests in Indonesia and Indochina necessary to find more metal and oil for their ships.

Japan could've kept up an effective resistance against the allies well into 1947 with their imperial possessions in China and Southeast Asia still in their hands in the Summer of '45 to supply war material, but the Atom Bombs and the Soviet entry into the war was a clear signal that there was no chance of even having a bargaining chip at the negotiating table.

>>836022
You'd think a modicum of recon would make sense to be sure your main targets are actually there. Or attack on Christmas or New Years when you know all ships would be in port.

>>835606
Japan was fucked from the get go in standing up to the US. Pearl Harbor was literally a choice between fighting as hard as they could with a slim chance of victory or starving to death for lack of resources grinding their war machine to halt waiting to be rolled back.

The Yamato was a gorgeous ship though

>>835674
More specifically, blitzkrieg is unsuitable in geographically large regions like Russia.

It's a big island. Bigger than it looks. It's bigger than the UK even if you added Ireland or Germany.

That's plenty of space for land war. And really they are on the ass end of civilization - you can't go further east on the Eurasian continent. And there is nothing of particular value on the islands except for the people that live there. Their only two close realistic threats are Korea and China. Korea is isolationist and China in a constant state of maxed expansion that was more concerned with keeping what gains it had and occasionally collecting tribute. Also historically massive navel invasions aren't much of a thing. Standing armies in general are a lot to ask alone.

Just imo. Despite being an island there just isn't much need for an advanced navy until recently.

>>835558
They mostly focused on in-fighting, around the time the cool kids were grooving the sickest waves, dude.

>>836022
>luck
Riiiiigghtt
Dont be naive man. We wanted a piece of the WW2 pie very badly...

>>836121
The entire Japanese fleet had just disappeared as far as the us was aware which is why parts of our fleet were on recon every day they waited was another day they risked being spotted. It's likely they discovered that their targets were missing but they decided that they had to strike while we were off guard.

Y'all miss a vital consequence of the Japanese military's decision to expand hardcore: The more the Japanese military expanded, the more ground it had to defend, and the more resources it had to expend in order to do so. Leaving aside Pearl Harbor, the Japanese war machine was getting stretched thin holding Burma and China, let alone going to fuck with the US.

>>835615
Of course it was, you stupid fucking nigger

In fact, Hideki Tojo was only warned 1 (ONE) week prior to the event. Pearl Harbor was completely the work of the Japanese navy.

Read a fucking book

>>835606
They didn't destroy all of the ships they wanted; they missed the Enterprise, Lexington, and Saratoga, which were of course the highest priority targets.

Priorities

2000 years and Japan was mostly isolationist.

China, Russia, Korea, etc, left them mostly alone too.

>>836219
I'm pretty sure we all agree they were in no position for war with the US but the question really is what viable options Japan had and I don't think that the allies would accept anything short of complete Japanese withdrawal and manchuria wouldn't have lasted long after the communist takeover (assuming it would happen and with Soviet support I think it likely would)

>>836150
Japan attacked the USA over oil right? Why didn't they just concentrate on the collapsing British Empire by capturing India then strolling into the Middle-East for oil? I'm pretty sure that had they even gotten 1/4 the way into India Britain would have thrown in the towel and offered them a favourable oil deal.

What's this "for an island" thing? Who are we comparing them to?

UK is really the only standard.

>>835621
They likely would've been successful in the invasion of Korea if they hadn't been going up against quite possibly the greatest admiral in history who knew exactly how to fight along the Korean coasts.

Anyone else and Japan is able to stay supplied which probably makes victory in the invasion a much better prospect.

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>>835621
You should add this.
>1300's Japanese Pirates go a-Roving.
>Get wrecked by Ming Navies.
>Ming starts buttretarded sea-trade policies in the early 1500's,
>Maritime Chinese go Pirating
>Ming: WHERE DID THESE GOOD PIRATES COME FROM???
>Oh from China, man...
>Let's label them "Japanese" anyway since Average Chinese are goodboy deydonuffins.
Though to be fair, there were still Japanese pirates around due to the Sengoku Period, but these sailed alongside a lot of angry Chinese folks.

>>835558
Now, now Yi Sun Sin was a genuine badass who more or less invented tactics. I am not a fan of GMH, but Without him, people as far as North East India will be speaking Japanese.

There is no way to account for a wild card like that.

>>835606
What were they supposed to do? Not fight the US blocakade?

>>836462
>that one chink /his/ poster that tries to act like a thug from the projects and always has some obscure Chinese historical fact for every situation and thread possible

you make me laugh, in a good way

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>>836462
Unarmored pirates must have left some sort of impression as the Ming/Joseon depict Japanese regulars(Imjin War) as the same as their bandit counterparts.

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SHUT THE FUCK UP
GIVE ME YOUR HEAD
MONGOL SCUM

TAKEZAKI SUENAGA A.D.1281

What good history books exist on pre-WWII Japan?

>>836787
The Cambridge History of Japan and A History of Japan: Revised Edition by R.H.P. Mason.

>>836812
Thank you.

>>836565

There not even wearing the swords right...


Some Injin war quotes, their translated by a Japanese nationalist so take them as you will

soldiers led by Admiral Lee (李如松) were all cavalrymen from the northern provinces. They were only armed with blunt short swords and no firearms. The enemy (Japanese troops) were all foot soldiers. Their swords were as long as 35 to 47 inches with outstanding sharpness. They brandished them left and right swiftly to cut down both humans and horses alike. There was no way to repulse their fierce attacks."
[Chouhiroku (懲毖録)]


"The Korean and Ming soldiers carried their swords on their back. As one soldier confronted a Japanese soldier, he reached his sword with his right arm raised high. The Japanese soldier from the Kato Clan swiftly drew his sword from his waist-belt sheath and slashed the soldier's arm off at the elbow, making an instant win. It looked much easier than "cutting a raw bamboo" as the allied soldier's armors were even lighter and thinner than those of the Japanese."
[Muye Dobo Tong Ji (武藝圖譜通志)]


"The Ming soldiers were cavalrymen with short swords and no firearms. The paths were too steep and muddy to gallop through. The enemy (Japanese soldiers) with long swords charged fiercely brandishing their swords left and right. They were sweeping everything before them with spiky attacks."

>>836825

"An order was issued to avoid hand-to-hand battles."
"The Ming/Korean soldiers were eager to learn the sword art from the Japanese captives."
[Joseon Wangjo Sillok Annals of Joseon Dynasty (朝鮮王朝実録)]


"The Japanese troops forged ahead under carefully drawn plans. They attacked their enemies with their menacing swords as well as harquebuses. The Korean troops abandoned the battle field and ran away scrambling as if their legs had wings on them."

"The Koreans' weapons were not very effective. Their swords in particular were short and not of much use."
[Chapters 38 and 36, History of Japan by Luís Fróis]


"Although we and our tributary (Korea) had had no hope for victory, the War abruptly ended when Kanpaku Hideyoshi died."
[The History of Ming Dynasty (明史)]

>>836787
for samurai anything by Karl Friday or Thomas Conlan is generally good

>MUH ADMIRAL YI MUH
>Meanwhile Kato Kiyomasa captured two Korean princes and reached Manchuria.
I'm sorry, Korean people.
I'm sorry, Siberian tigers.

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>>836825
>soldiers led by Admiral Lee (李如松) were all cavalrymen from the northern provinces. They were only armed with blunt short swords and no firearms. The enemy (Japanese troops) were all foot soldiers. Their swords were as long as 35 to 47 inches with outstanding sharpness. They brandished them left and right swiftly to cut down both humans and horses alike. There was no way to repulse their fierce attacks."
[Chouhiroku (懲毖録)]
Ryu Seongryong wasn't even present at the Battle of Byeokjegwan.

Even if the outnumbered Ming forces under Li Rusong used short swords they were able to inflict 2,000+ casualties on Tachibana Muneshige's forces alone.

The Japanese lost 7,000 men in the Siege of Haengju/Battle of Byeokjegwan.

>>836900
Weird question, can you read classical Japanese?

>>836259
Even if they did just judging by the U.S.'s industrial output for that year alone they stood no chance.

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>>836022
It would have just postponed the inevitable to be honest. The Battle of Midway would just be the retaking of Midway and its cry would be "remember the Enterprise" no reason to pretend. The Japs were doomed from the start.

>>836951
Yes to classical Chinese,no to classical Japanese.

>>836478
You retard, the only reason Japan did Pearl hHrbor was because they wanted to expand into Papau New Guinea and other British colonies, and they thought that if they did America would declare war on them, which was very unlikely given the American stance on starting another European War. Pearl Harbor was actually a complete failure for the Japanese. Their main goal with Pearl Harbor was to weaken American Navy so they could go ham and expand on British Territory, but all they did was bring America into the war and didn't even target the Aircraft carriers which Yamamoto specifically told them to destroy; which was lucky for the American Navy as their aircraft carriers were out of people harbour training. Isoroku Yamamoto even thought that it was a bad idea and that he knew he could only survive 6 months to a year against America.

>>836825
>>836827
Forgot to mention Song Yingchang in the《經略復國要編》ordered every cavalrymen to bring their own sabers(腰刀).

>>836827
>"Although we and our tributary (Korea) had had no hope for victory, the War abruptly ended when Kanpaku Hideyoshi died."
This was written right after the massive defeats of Sacheon and Ulsan Castles.

Which is funny that it was considered "no hope for victory" as the Japanese could not advance into Korea anymore while Ming/Joseon forces pretty much got em penned in South Korean footholds.

Everyone was tired as fuck however and when Hideyoshi died that was a good excuse to end it.

But everyone was fucked
>Lots of angry Daimyo returning to Japan pissed off at the Toyotomi.
>Korea is destroyed
>China can ill afford expenses of the war.

>>837003
not familiar with a 腰刀. is it any sword worn at the hip or a general type?

>>837017
明史 was made during/after the fall of the Ming they have every reason to exaggerate Ming extravagances.

Looking through the 《經略復國要編》 the Ming were first and foremost concerned about their own survival(naval defense against a possible Japanese landing in Liaodong or Shandong),Ming also sent some low quality infantry(described as old and feeble) and true sea worthy battleships were only built near the end of the conflict.

>>837023
腰刀 is a generic term for any saber. There's one passage in the 《明神宗顯皇帝實錄》that describes that some Liaodong soldiers used the short saber(短刀?) but I can't find it right now.

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>>837048
Duan Dao or Shoudao. Take your pick

AFAIK the most common Dao-type for sidearm usage during the Late MIng/Qing Dynasty was the Peidao. Dedicated swordsmen meanwhile used larger swords such as the Jian or the Changdao.

>>837067
錦衣衛鎮撫周仁卿陳破虜在用火器昔從提督李如松征倭見遼兵歸陣止攜弓箭短刀未諳火器之用http://ctext.org/wiki.pl? if=en&chapter=613769

Judges Zhou Renqing and Chen Polu of the Broclade Clad guards state "When commander-in-chief Li Rusong fought the Japanese,the soldiers of Liao(dong) fought in a formation with bows and short sabers,they lacked firearm prowess."

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>>837194
Duan dao then.

>>837067
From Qi Jiguang's records the Changdao was used by dismounted cavalry/arquebusiers. Its presence in the Muyejebo show that Southern Chinese instructors passed the skill down to Koreans.

By the time Xu Guangqi's enacted his failed reforms arquebusiers switched back to one handed sabers.

>>836008
The Americans won in basically every aspect, not just industry. They had superior intelligence services, strategy, technology, political alliances etc. Japan's most crushing defeat, Midway, was a result of this even when they held parity in numbers.

The Japanese Navy was historically shit because the wood they have on their island isn't great for ships and they could never hold onto Manchuria or Korea long enough for better wood

>>839371
Or metal, in the case of modern history

>>836900
>Even if the outnumbered Ming forces under Li Rusong used short swords they were able to inflict 2,000+ casualties on Tachibana Muneshige's forces alone.
I read somewhere that Ukita Hideie lost a similar amount. Is that number reflected in that image?

>>835621
They also REKT THE SHIT out of gooks.

>>839879
Hansan Island mate. One of those "how did they fuck up this hard" situations.

>>835606
>despite losing exactly as many ships as Japan wanted to take out
but wasn't the point that they didn't take out the carriers that they needed to?

>>835558
How can people on an island starve when they can't eat potatoes?

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>>839820
From 《日本戰史·朝鮮役》 Ukita Hideie lost about 3,000 men,this entry puts his manpower at 5,352

>>835568
Yeah but Rissia's navy was practically non existent and the army was pitiful too. I highly recommend you read the story about the black sea fleet being moved to Vladivostok to help fight the japs, shit is hilarious.

>>840262
Man, that's kind of crazy. Guess it was a really bad idea to fuck with those northern retinues even if they were outnumbered and caught out of position.

>>835558
They weren't really a trading nation because of Japan's geographical position.

>>835615
>Pearl Harbor was not planned by the Navy, mind you.
Pearl Harbor was conceived and planned by Genda, Yamamoto's subordinate.

>>836008
Japan outnumbered the USN in 1942 when they basically lost their carrier fleet and the war.

>>835558

t. butthurt russian

>>836112
>naval headquarters like Hong Kong and Singapore.
Neither Hong Kong nor Singapore were "naval headquarters." Singapore was a naval base but no large RN force was based out of it.

>>836112
>Japan could've kept up an effective resistance against the allies well into 1947 with their imperial possessions in China and Southeast Asia still in their hands in the Summer of '45 to supply war material
It didn't matter what possessions were "still in their hands." They were cut off from Japan and nothing could go back to the main land. The only reason any overseas lands were "still in their hands" was because the allies decided it wasn't necessary to finishing off Japan.

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>>835558
Battle of Tsushima 1905, Japan virtually destroyed the Entire Russian navy

>>836478
There was no US blockade.

>>840361
>Battle of Tsushima 1905, Japan virtually destroyed the Entire Russian navy
Japan destroyed 2/3rds of the Baltic fleet, one of two main Russian fleets.

>>840282
>I highly recommend you read the story about the black sea fleet being moved to Vladivostok to help fight the japs, shit is hilarious.
The Black Sea fleet was not moved to Vladivostok (sic) to help fight the japs.

>>836996
>lucky for the American Navy as their aircraft carriers were out of people harbour training.
American carriers were not training. The Saratoga was being refit in San Diego. The Enterprise and the Lexington were ferrying aircraft to island bases East of Pearl Harbor. The rest were in the Atlantic.

>>836996
>Isoroku Yamamoto even thought that it was a bad idea a
Yamamoto not only was behind the planning of the Pearl Harbor attack, he literally threatened to resign if the General Headquarters would not allow him to carry out the Pearl Harbor attack.

>>840287
Ukita Hideie's casualties probably happened at the Siege of Haengju. Keep in mind that battlefield casualties are only a portion of the recorded casualties(desertion,starvation,disease)

Participated at the Siege of Haengju as well as Byeokjegwan:
Kobayakawa Takakage/Kobayakawa Hidekane lost 448 men out of 10,000.

Kuroda Nagamasa lost 2,731 men out of 8,000.

Tsukushi Hirokado lost 573 men out of 900.

Present only at the Battle of Byeokjegwan:
Tachibana Muneshige/Takahashi Munemasu lost 2,068 men out of 3,200.

>>840391
You're right, it was the Baltic fleet and it was originally supposed to go to port Arthur.

>>835558
Most of their war experience was against each other on land.

>>839966
Yeah, I fucked up

>>840361
>>840385
Someone should post that copypasta about the Russian fleet traveling to Japan around Africa and barely arriving

Any books I can download (preferably epub) about Japan in WW2?

>>835639
There was no chance that they could have won against Russia in any way. Hitler could not have even defeated the British, the war was doomed for a German defeat from the start.

>>835864
The japs went into Korea because their brother country baekje got rekt by shilla and tang forces. They were just there to help out. Later after baekje got fucked up most of their royal families and nobles fled to Japan.

>>835558
The generals were autistic and cared too much about "muh honor". In WW2 many Japanese fleets were lost because the generals were unwilling to retreat.

>>836121
The entire Japanese operation was a masterpiece of planning and preparation. A must read is At Dawn We Slept: the Untold Story of Pearl Harbor by Gordon W. Prange. This is an authoritative and highly documented work on the preparations by both sides (or lack thereof) and the attack. It was very much a matter of bad luck for the Japanese and purely good luck for the US that the aircraft carriers were not at Pearl but delivering aircraft to Wake Island and Midway Island

The Japanese planners did a lot of recon. There was a spy contingent in Oahu that observed the movement and positions of the US vessels. The planners also sent a civilian cargo ship on the proposed route the fleet was to follow with the objective of observe and report encounters with other vessels on this little used route.

One of the Japanese plan’s contingencies was to find the US fleet anchored at Lahaina, an option considered by the US command. If that had happened, the US ships would have been sunk in deep water, far from repair facilities, and would have been unrecoverable. Scout planes from cruisers checked that anchorage the morning of the attack.

Also much discussed is whether the Japanese should have launched a third wave to attack the oil facilities and repair infrastructure. To much to get into here but those facilities assisted with the repair of the recoverable US vessels.

>>835607
I agree and disagree. If pearl harbor was a success ie: carriers annihilated, Japanese Invasion of Hawaii, etc
Yes, America could use its industry to tear shit up.
But that takes time.
Gotta remember, America at the start of ww2 was laughable. If Japan wasn't pulling a Germany and being so bogged down in China, that's a shit load of fanatic fight to the death soldiers.
Add to their experience of jungle/island warfare, superior fighters (zero, Oscar, etc) and ships like their super carriers and the yamato.
At best America comes to the table to negotiate. At worst: America takes Japan (or nukes it) but at the cost of alot of lives and ships.
TL:DR: lotta Americans/Japanese dead, ww2 lasts more then 6 years

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>>835558
Japan is deceptively big.

The agrarian cunts that founded the civilization there wouldve been focused on Inland matters.

It is also a largely contiguous Island, so some maritime culture would develop but not to the level of boatniggery practiced by: say, Southeast Asian Islands and Pacific Islanders.

As for China, the existence of the very important rivers of Huang He and Yangtze led to it being a battlefield among Chinese states/dynasties, leading to an impetus of naval development. This navy then took to sea when the Nomads turned the silk route to shit and the Maritime Trade Route became important. China's Junks had to be protected from pirates.

Korean naval development is triggered by piracy: or rather, the defense vs. these cunts.

>>836406
Ancient Greece?

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>>835639
>dividing great forces in 3 different front is a good strategy
What the fuck? Even Paulus said this was a bad idea, even worst when Hitler decided to divide even more his troops in the south to go for Stalingard instead of keep going to the south and take the oil in Bakour. Because muh symbolism city

>>836259
In fact only one ship was beyond repairs after the attack.

Which kinda shows how overrated Japanese are.

>>844525
>superior fighters (zero, Oscar, etc)
Only because USN got scammed on Buffalos which were being phased out already
>and ships like their super carriers
Which "disappeared" in certain battle, wonder how.
>yamato
2 ships against 4 North Carolina class BB's and upcoming 4 Iowa class BB's. They were sure bigger than both of those but the numerical superiority reduced that advantage especially when the remaining Japanese battleship fleet wasn't that impressive with 1920's designs at best(see Nagato) which Americans also had surplus of.

The thing that Japanese had much better than Americans were torpedoes. As in - their torpedoes worked and were really good. American torpedoes didn't had some impressive performance(weren't bad) and were enormously unreliable(this was bad though). If it wasn't for their unreliability, they would sink 2 out of 3 big carriers sank at Midway, but before Midway because they were caught unescorted by submarines.

The US could've been laughable as you've said but they were already rolling with their production and they knew that by 1942-1943 they will outclass whatever Japanese could possibly put against them.

And Pearl Harbour was nowhere near being semi-successful so thinking that they would be able to sink 4 CV's when they've sank barely anything is very naive. It was a shock but it wasn't huge blow.

Name three island nations outside of the UK, and venice who were known for naval prowess

Seriously, you could say visby or the emirate of crete(honestly just a pirate haven) but those were never anything special and didn't last long, island nations having strong navies is a meme, there are ither special conditions that needed to be fulfilled for it to happen, which were much more important

Also japan was often isolationist and it's neighbours usually didn't give two shits about japan, why would they have a strong navy?

>>844984
This thread reminds me of /k/ threads about the IJN where they just tear them apart. Not very fair desu with you familia