Was Rhodesia actually an apartheid state? I've never seen

>>814199
>Was Rhodesia actually an apartheid state?
No.

Ever since that nutty American kid shot up that church now every pseudo-intellectual is out to claim Rhodesia was racist and evil though.

It wasn't really. In fact it was probably less outright racist than the US during Jim Crow years.

>>814199
While minority rule is "wrong" is the modern politically correct sense, the fact is the Rhodesian leadership was trying to create an educated native African middle class to help run the country. Because the alternative, overnight home rule, is what gets you countries like Zimbabwe.

Honestly it's a shame the rest of the world was too stupid or short-sighted to acknowledge this.

>>814199
>Was it an apartheid state?
Sort of yes, by modern standards especially.
It was better than most other colonies and post-colonies though.

>>814199
What's with all the Rhodesia threads lately?
>do you think that Rhodesia's downfall was one of the global community's biggest mishandlings?
Nope

Literally the only racist thing about Rhodesia was that the whites had guaranteed seats in the parliament.

>>814199
Ian Smith did nothing wrong

>>814199
>On top of this --a bit of a loaded question, I know, do you think that Rhodesia's downfall was one of the global community's biggest mishandlings?

err

m8 i think you are ignoring things like, say, world war two for example

it was mishandled, that much is true

>>814199
>Was Rhodesia actually an apartheid state
It really depends on what you think apartheid is. If you think that for something to be called an
"apartheid state" it must have a broad, far-reaching hierarchy of advantages given to groups that are explicitly racial in nature, then no, Rhodesia is not an apartheid state.

On the other hand, it's naive to think that the government didn't engineer it's laws explicitly to discriminate against natives, or at least certain types of natives. Even though (for example) the tiered voter systems are present in other former British African colonies (e.g., Kenya), Rhodesia's appears much more discriminatory in terms of the statistical outcomes. In my opinion Rhodesia's government model was racist, but it's hard to make a judgement about where it really lives when compared to other former British colonies. Definitely better than SA though.


>do you think that Rhodesia's downfall was one of the global community's biggest mishandlings?
The events surrounding the Rhodesian Bush War and the Unilateral Declaration are actually really interesting and unique in terms of the interplay between Western human rights beliefs, old-school colonialism and Cold War diplomacy. Slightly different outcomes could have easily massively changed the situation in Zimbabwe, but the current situation was maybe the best outcome for all parties. The biggest mistake is probably that the West has not been more active about forcing Mugabe to step down and let the people elect their own leaders.

>>814277
>but the current situation was maybe the best outcome for all parties.
Of all the possible outcomes from the event, I'd say we are living in the worst possible one. It could have been very easy for a legitimate transition of government if the west didn't let Rhodesia get fucked by racist, violent warlords who would go on to enact a dictatorship and enact a horrifically worse regime of apartheid.

>>814315
Shit, this is for
>>814278

>>814199
>On top of this --a bit of a loaded question, I know, do you think that Rhodesia's downfall was one of the global community's biggest mishandlings?

Jesus, no. Not by a long shot, simply because Rhodesia just wasn't very important at all.

The internet has done more to revitalize discussion on Rhodesia than anything else, unfortunately most of the discussion is done by white supremacists.

did Rhodesians venerate Cecil Rhodes at all or was it just a name as far as they were concerned?

>>814229
>the fact is the [white colonial] leadership was trying to create an educated native African middle class to help run the country. Because the alternative, overnight home rule, is what gets you countries like Zimbabwe.
Oh look, it's a description of Africa

File: 206387_1019174473592_7366_n.jpg (76KB, 604x538px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 604x538px

My grandparents were Rhodies so I have a soft spot for the country. It would have been better than what we got now, but oh well.

He actually still lives and works over there, despite Mugabe's anti-white antics. Says he loves the country too much to quit it.

>>814278

you seem to have the best answer, can you recommend any good sources to learn about rhodesia?

>>814199
I've only met a few rhodesians IRL and they refused to call the country zimbabwe. I found it curious but never thought much more of it. Sorry for the completely unrelated anecdote.

>>814270
If that makes Rhodesia an apartheid state then Lebanon is an apartheid state.

Mugabe ruined EVERYTHING

>>814199
Not exactly. There were some exclusive areas - such as the states of the southern US - but nothing really drastic. There were no restrictions on employment, nor acquisition of property, either electoral (nominally, at least), and very few were the restrictions on movement.

For sake of the facts, the situation was much more favorable, stable and conducive to the progress of all than the Age of Mugabe.

>>814270
>white people guaranteed seats in parliament is apartheid
>women guaranteed seats in parliament is liberation

???

>>814490
Sounds like a true patriot.

>>815392
Tell that to the cucks.

>>814199

Under the Rhodesian constitution, suffrage came from education and owning property. That alone disenfranchised the vast majority of the black population. However, the constitution was also set up so the black population would never get a majority - they were limited to a 50/50 split at best, with the number of "black" seats in parliament increasing as the number of eligible black voters increased.

Even ignoring the fact that 10% of the population was effectively guaranteed a majority control in the government for the foreseeable future, we can look at the education efforts. The black Rhodesian population received disproportionately less education funding than the white population, despite making up 90% of the population. What made this worse was the fact that the black population was often targeted by the terrorists to discourage them from participating in government institutions - particularly voting and schooling.

So the situation was already set up to encourage unrest against the government among the vast majority of the populace, and the terrorist groups did an excellent job at seizing upon it and playing it to their advantage.

>>814278
> the current situation was maybe the best outcome for all parties

How so? The Zimbabweans were fucked because there was a communist-terrorist in charge of the state, they went from being the breadbasket of Africa to mass starvation and poverty with no hope of any sort of revival because Mugabe has to continually pander towards all his men who helped overthrow the Rhodesians. The communists lost out because they had an ally which was essentially useless and had to continually prop up, even raw resource operations were rampant with corruption. South Africa and the rest of the surrounding countries suffered because Zimbabwe is so shitty that refugees and economic immigrants flooded into their countries. The US lost because communists (though a few select companies benefited from the war and the blockade).

The only winners were the Brits which wanted to force through black rule, but even then their companies were harassed and businesses disrupted.

>>814330
Some thought of him as the founder of the country, and there's a bit of founder myth around him, but nowhere near to the extent that say George Washington has in America.

>>814199
Yes

>I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organisation to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurising them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programmes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates... It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored.

>>818694
i keep seeing this posted, but what's the source?

>>818715
An interview with Paul Sinclair from "None but Ourselves" by Julie Frederikse.

>>818694
Nothing about this is implying apartheid, only archeological research slanted by propaganda.

>>818852
>cultural as well as political repression is not a hallmark of apartheid

anon pls

>>818866
Guess USSR was also an apartheid state then.

>>818898
Sure. Asiatics, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Baltics all had their cultures repressed by the Soviets and had almost say in how that nation was governed. Despite making up a cumulative 30+ percent of the population.

>>818866
>literally everything done by any state ever is now apartheid

>>818905
So we're in agreement?

>>814199
Not sure how you define apartheid state, but objectively there was a lot of intentional racial inequality. Someone crunched the numbers and figured that the Rhodesian state spent nearly 10 times as much money on social programs and welfare for whites as they did for blacks.
Yet there's rather little evidence that they were literally trying to keep the black man down, unlike many historical states that weren't shy about oppressing everyone other than the ruling majority/minority.

>>815182
Elaborate, I don't know this? Does the same apply but with muslims instead of whites in Lebanon?

>>814490
Cool. Where do you live? Down under I'd presume? Do you have any cool relics, like army badges etc?

>>814199
>2016
>thinking about Rhodesia

>>820833
Every ethnicity in Lebanon has a guaranteed # of seats in Parliament based on population %.

>>821640
The CURRENT YEAR meme is so 2015.

>>814199
Why do people make this thread on 4chan OVER AND OVER AGAIN as if to justify their racist neo-colonialist fantasy of a white country in sub-Saharan Africa?

>>817378
>despite making up 90% of the population
Try 98%, at best the white population was like 5%

>>821680
>2015
>thinking about Rhodesia

>>818943
>I can't distinguish between degrees

>>817378
>The black Rhodesian population received disproportionately less education funding than the white population, despite making up 90% of the population.
citation?

Rhodesia-Zimbabwe would have worked also. The country went to shit when Mugabe was allowed into politics. He killed political opponents, intimidated voters, to win the election. Then he executed or ran off white farmers and white businessmen. Gave everything to his cronies that didn't know how to farm or run a business.

>>823449
Good thing is he will finally die soon.
Unfortunately his wife who is even worse might inherit the Presidency, unless the chinks assassinate her.