is it fair to say that protestant work ethic (salvation through

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>>452082
>provoke a schism because muh indulgences
>protestants now glorify money
>burgers mention god on their banknotes

>>452082
>why is it that catholic empires aren't as successful compared to protestant ones?
Britain, Sweden...

>>452163
the indulgences were a minor issue compared to what he saw as the greater problem of people believing saying prayers and stuff like that would get one into heaven.

France was pretty succesfull

>>452169
Are you trying to say those are not successful, or not protestant? both are untrue.

What are you talking about?

It is the Catholics that preach salvation through works.

Protestants believe in salvation through faith.

>>452195
The Church of England isn't Protestant m80.

>>452201
Proverbs 10:4 "He becometh poor that dealeth [with] a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich." (KJV)

>>452195
I'm trying to say that your list of successful protestant empires is in fact short as fuck and most were catholic

I can also add that Bavaria and Austria are the most based German states and only the militaristic Prussians, starting as a catholic order, make the protestants stand out

>>452208
Works are a product of a saved man.

Not the other way around.

>>452217
Given you're not an armed communist anabaptist, nothing you can say about christianity will have the spirit in it.

>>452082
> protestant work ethic
> salvation through hard work
Do you even Sola Fide, m8? If anything, Protestant theology means you don't have to do anything, you are saved by either your faith or by being elected.

>>452215
Protestant emphasis on being able to read the bible enabled a large amount of people in the protestant nations of europe to become literate.

This situation combined with the calvinist notion that accumulation of wealth as something positive enabled, among other factors the development of capitalism

>>452082
What about Spain and Italy?

>>452082
Has there ever been a more unjustified yet widely held true by anglo historians meme? I guess it goes hand in hand with "coffee is responsible for the industrial revolution" lel.

>>452244
Christ did all the work for us on the cross.

The Bible makes it clear that we can do nothing ourselves to be saved. We are all sinners.
No works or self righteousness can make it right.

That is why Jesus died in our place, for our sins.

God did all the work.
Salvation is a gift.

Works can lead to good rewards in heaven, but it is not a requirement for salvation.

>>452254
You want to force Protestantism into the picture, but the truth is it's just Brits being great.

>>452082
>salvation through hard work

i thought one of the bedrock of protestantism was Justification by Faith Alone / Sola Fide

>>452264
Yeah, this is what I said. I'm glad they found a way to be prosperous selfish burgers and not to feel guilty for poor they were exploiting.

>>452082
>successful catholic empires
>France
>Spain
>Portugal
>HRE
>Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

>successful protestant empires
>United Kingdom
>Sweden

??

>>452276
The fuck?

It is the Papacy that was resting in luxury and gold while the peasants were living in shit.

>>452283
>succesful protestant empires
United States of America, the most powerful country on Earth.

>successful catholic empires
South American shitholes.

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>>452283
>>successful catholic empires
????
The British empire was alot more successful than any of the Catholic empires, and lasted longer as well.

>>452297
Except that the Church of England wasn't protestant.

>>452297
Okay so the protestant argument basically is
>British empire was the most successful one, so everything they ever did is the best possible way of life (nevermind the fact that they aren't really protestants).
I guess let's all start eating Haggis because one example is enough to set a trend.

>>452286
Did you ever read some of the things Luther said about peasants?

>>452299
If you are not Catholic or Orthodox, you are a Protestant denomination.

>>452299
Im pretty sure Cromwell and the parliament were protestants, they sure liked killing Catholics.

>>452299
>what is the King James Bible

THE Bible of the Protestant Christians, was made by an English king.

The USA was practically founded on the KJV.

>>452327
All Seven Sacraments
Not Sola Fide
Not Sola Scriptura

They're Protestant today, basically becasue they're so liberal that you don't have to believe in the Virgin Birth if you don't want do, but they weren't always.

>>452329
This may be true, but the Church of England's communion is not anti-catholic.

>>452327
Syrians. Thomasites. Learn some fucking church history.

>>452082
>Austria isn't successful
>Belgium isn't successful
>France isn't successfull
>Italy isn't successful

>>452332
>>what is the King James Bible
The King James Bible.

Lollards used Wycliffe. Wycliffe used standard Latin texts. Does this make Lollards Catholic?

Cathars used standard Latin texts. Does this make Cathars Catholic?

Poor friars used standard Latin texts.

Faulty argument mate.

>>452327
>Copts are protestants
>Armenians are protestants
>Nestorians are protestants
>Syrians are protestants
Murican education strikes again.

>>452333
I find it funny you throw the word liberal around.

It is the Catholic church today that is behind the liberalization and cucking of Christendom.

I only have to point out to the pope and his recent blasphemies.

It is Protestants (Baptists/Fundamentalists) that keep true to the Word of God and do not compromise.

People make fun of Protestants because they are traditional Christians, they do not care what you think.

Meanwhile the Catholics are so insecure they are willing to believe in evolution, aliens and other secular bullshit the devil has deceived the world into.

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>>452290
>United States of America, the most powerful country on Earth.
Not for very long though ;^)

>>452341
KJV was based on greek texts collected by Erasmus and translated by Tyndale.

>>452341
KJV is based on the Textus Receptus.

Catholic Bibles come from the Alexandrian/Siniaticus manuscripts which were found in a trash can in Egypt, a place known for Gnostic heresies and corruption.

>>452343
>It is …Baptists/Fundamentalists that keep true to the Word of God

Let's see:

Adult only Baptism in the Spirit
Shooting rulers and their servants
Group marriage in Christ
Immediate communisation

Nope.

>>452344
>remember when we had two digits growth you guize?
Give it up China, it's not coming back

>>452343
I'm Orthodox :^)

Baptists are modernists, they aren't traditionalists

This is traditionalist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noetoc2W4Pc

>>452353
>china on a crisis is growing 7% per year
Such a shame, really

>>452348
>>452349
Thanks for elucidating my point that the KJV is the KJV.

>>452354
I said traditional as in Pauline Christianity.

Not your pagan crap.

>>452082
>Sola Gratia
>Salvation by grace alone

>Is it fair to say that protestant work ethic (salvation through hard work) built the modern world?
>(salvation through hard work)

But I thought the Catholics believed in works-related Salvation.

>>452358
>Sauline "Chistianity"

Nice one. I'll tell that at Friday evening sabbath.

>>452372
>To smart to read this thread

>>452271
Notice how England was a backwater craphole before protestantism.

>>452342
Those fit into Orthodoxy.

>>452349
Source material doesn't mean much if your translation is shit though.

Look at how the KJV managed to include "Lucifer" and other nonsensical horseshit, it's either deliberate distortion of text or stupidity.

I agree, I have a pdf of Max Weber's book that I am planning to read but regardless I've been able to observe a difference in the socioeconomic situation of the Catholic and Orthodox regions when compared to the Protestant countries, especially in the south east Asia region were the only two Catholic majority countries (the Philippines and East Timor) are the ones with the highest levels of violent crime. This isn't to say that the traditional forms of Christianity didn't have their place in history but that role was surpassed with the advent of Protestantism. The worse thing to happen to Holland and Germany and also America was to have it's churches fractured into various groups. This is what would create the environment which would lead to the continual decline of the churches.
Also the criticisms of Max Weber's work is not unheard of but it wouldn't be a bad idea to analyze these criticisms to find solutions to patch up any faults in his theory.

>>452376
>To smart for the second "o" in "too"
>To smart to realize I was shitposting

>>452389
Dead wrong.

The KJV is the best Bible version and many believe it is the preserved Word of God.

It delivers the nuances and moods just as scripture intended. The thee, thou and thy are also very important. The KJV is a work of literature that changed the western world.

It is modern versions that completely butcher the meaning of verses and even completely omit verses. The NIV is a joke.

>>452389
Gail Riplinger, motherfucker.

>>452397
>Septuagint says ἑωσφόρος
>Masoretic sas הֵילֵל

>KJV says "Lucifer"
>NIV says "morning star"


Guess which one is more accurate.

>>452401
>woman
Into the trash.

>>452381
They branched out from Orthodoxy in 5th century and they reject either Council of Ephesus or Council of Chalcedon, something even Protestants accept.

>>452358
Orthodox Liturgy is far closer to what Paul was used to than Baptist liturgy is.

>>452389
Lucifer is the Anglicanization of the Latin name from the Vulgate

KJO's are special kind of stupid if they seriously believe that the word of God has not been accurately transmitted before the production of the King James translation.

>>452406
Lucifer is an Anglicanization of the Latin word for "morning star" used in the Vulgate.

>>452406
Semantics. They both mean the same thing.

Besides, Lucifer is more correct because that was the name of Satan before he fell from heaven. He was a covering cherub, an angel of light.

The NIV mixes Jesus with Lucifer, very dangerous and probably intentional.

It also omits over 60,000 verses.

>>452442
They were. Manuscripts were widely in circulation.
The Gospel was also spread through the word of mouth.

God would not preserve His word in a trash can.

>>452436
It's not a personal name. It literally means "light bearer", hence why it's lowercase in the Vulgate.

>>452444
Absolutely not, in Isaiah it does not mean or even imply Satan. It specifically says it's directed to the Babylonian king.

>>452451
God uses ordinary people to refer to other things, this is not new. This is very common in the Bible, especially the OT. These verses can have dual meanings.

Pharaoh was a type of antichrist.
Babylonian king was a type of Satan.

You have a very shallow and dense view of scripture.

How would the Babylonian king literally be the lightbearer? It does not make any sense. The verses continue to literally explain Satan.

>>452451
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHcf3E8qOqA

>>452461
It doesn't imply Satan anywhere.

>How would the Babylonian king literally be the lightbearer?

Not literally of course, that entire passage in Isaiah is a mockery / insult. Basically saying "oh you 'mighty and unbeatable one', look at how shit you are now".

Morning star by the way was a common title for ancient middle eastern royalty. This is also why Jesus is called the morning star, because he's a king, not because he's "Satan." Morning star or light bearer never even implies Satan.

>>452473

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.…

This literally describes Satan and his fall from heaven.

>>452481
Not at all, it implies the Babylonian king was retarded enough to proclaim himself divine, even though he was just a man.

Similar narrative as with the Tower of Babylon by the way, mortals being too proud and thinking they're above to God.

>>452484
Ever considered it has a dual meaning?
A literal local meaning and a bigger meaning.

God is not stupid, scripture is relevant no matter what the time. There are many valuable lessons that can be applied/learned even in the OT.

>>452502
Yes. However what you're doing is anachronistic exegesis and a confirmation bias based on a shitty translation. It doesn't mean Satan, end of.

>>452082
>salvation through hard work
>Protestants
I thought it was salvation through faith alone because good work doesn't cut it?

Fucking Protestants.

>>452082
Remind me again why Protestants are buttfuckingly rabid defenders of slavery?

Also
>Protestants
>Salvation through work
They believed in SALVATION THROUGH FAITH. A.k.a ITS OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE I BELIEVE CHRIST SAVED ME. LEL

>>452506
see
>>452464

And read Gail Riplinger´s books.

The KJV is the preserved Word of God.

If you do not have a King James Bible, you do not have a Bible at all.

>>452510
He worded it wrong. Good works exist, but they are a RESULT of being saved, rather than the cause.

>>452515
The Bible I read isn't even in English m8. Also Gail Raplinger is a woman.

>>452450
>appeal to emotion
KJO logic is >Vulgate bad because catholic
>Syriac and Coptic heretic
>Oldest Alexandrian texts bad because they don't agree with my preferred group of Byzantine and medieval rabbinical texts which were assembled a millennium and a half later by a catholic humanist.
Although I do agree that archaic pronouns do have a functional value, and there are translations that preserve this, the ASV, Young's literal translation, and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.

>>452521
This. KJV faggots are literally cucked by catholicism, I don't know why they even call themselves protestants.

>>452521
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/kjb_only.htm

Geneva Bible is far superior to shitty KJV.

People who read the NIV or any new age Bible get depressed or suicidal.

People who read the KJV feel the Holy Spirit.

>>452525
I advise you to read "The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations?" from James White.

>>452525
Yes I went to that page once and stopped reading after a half hour into one of their many endless writings on the subject because of all the errors and false information I found.

>>452534
Can you name me one of these errors or false information?

http://www.alwaysbeready.com/images/stories/alwaysbeready/dk115.pdf

>>452534
Truth be told the KJ is not a dishonest translation by any means and it's certainly a respectable translation given the tools and sources that the translators must have had at the time, but that doesn't mean that there can never be any improvements made after this one 400 year old work. Especially with certain meanings of becoming obsolete in modern English and unintelligible to the reader.

>>452554
The `its too old!´ meme has already been destroyed.

The KJV is not complicated, read the fucking links. A child can read and understand the KJV.

The real reason for the plethora of modern translations is a sinister one.

You think Satan would not attack the source of opposition, scripture?

>>452557
Why aren't you reacting at all to >>452540
and >>452532 ?

>>452560
James White lost a debate against Gail Riplinger.

>>452451
>It's not a personal name. It literally means "light bearer", hence why it's lowercase in the Vulgate.
The rules for English capitalization are different in Early Modern English, derp.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10522/capitalisation-of-nouns-in-english-in-the-17th-and-18th-centuries

>>452506
Then why does the Orthodox Church think Satan in implied in the dual meaning as well?

>>452557
>A child can read and understand the KJV.

Yeah because a child certainly can understand ENE enough to know what "dumb ass" and "I moved my bowels" mean in the KJV context, you fucking retard.

>>452562
For the 3rd time, Gail Riplinger is a WOMAN.

>>452569
She has done more work for the LORD than you will ever do in your lifetime.

>>452557
Numerous words have become obsolete in their meaning and are consequently being interpreted erroneously. As an example 'temptation','evil' look up their origin and meanings during and before Shakespeare's time and compare that with the connotations they have now.

>>452082
Hedonism built the modern world, protestant work ethic is long dead- and arguably never really existed

>>452570
>She

Dropped. Go peddle your white knight feminist horseshit somewhere else.

>>452562
Riplinger got royally BTFO by White actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVXjw4jd61M

>>452573
>recommend a book that happens to be made by a female author
>HURRR YOU MUST BE A FEMINIST!

Retard.

I do not care about the gender, I just think her book is really great and it exposes the modern perverted Bibles for what they are.

>>452578
>I do not care about the gender
You're obviously not a Biblical Christian then.

>>452579
You are so obsessed about gender you refuse to read a book because it is written a woman.

If it was written by a man, or heck a bunny, I would still recommend it.

The gender of the author is not relevant you idiot.

Protestants are so fuckin boring
Catholic thought is fascinating to study all around, with Protestants I guess some Reformed theology is kinda cool, and Anglicanism is based cuz it's combination of both, but really "MUH FAITH" basically means any kind of refined discourse is possible and discouraged

>>452206
Yes it is

>>452591
To the contrary.

www.ichthys.com

Protestant theology is more deep than Catholicism.

Catholics are all about carnal, physical rituals and repetitions.

Protestants are actually spiritual and all about having a relationship with Christ.

All these different books and versions... I wonder what would happen if there was an abrahamic religion that had an unchanging one? :^)

>>452599
*tips bomb*

>works don't lead to salvation
>therefore they don't matter at all, let's just relax

Actually, what Christ said is that works are incredibly important, and this kind of opportunistic "We should only do the minimal amount of work to get through God's hoops!" is what will lead you to the path of destruction. But ok.

>>452603
Read the thread.

This is not what anyone is saying.

Works are important yes, but they are not required for salvation.

Works alone wont lead you anywhere. You can be the nicest person in the world and still not be saved because you do not believe in Jesus.

>>452599
Are you implying islam?

>>452603
>therefore they don't matter at all, let's just relax
Nice strawman. See >>452519

>>452609
That's wrong too and is an incredibly stupid and invented view.
Works and faith go together. What protestants do is make a weird separation of them and then pretend passages that talk about works don't matter, even though the NT is full of them.

>>452614
Faith leads you to salvation.
This is the first step.
This is the baptism, the born again.

Works come after that.
Its what you naturally want to do.

You dont do works because you feel you have to, or out of fear, or in a hope you get saved.

>>452597
>relationship with Christ
SNORE. Like you can imagine the ultimate source of all Being as your friend, anyway.
Aristotelian metaphysics > boring new age kidfriendly protestantism

>>452618
>Faith leads you to salvation.
Grace leads you to faith. THAT is the first step.

>>452619
You are an idiot.

>>452619
>Aristotelian metaphysics
Good job admitting the roots of catholicism.

>>452591
Evangelical Calvinism and Arminianism coupled with a preoccupation on the apocalypse are a good way to heard in the masses. My favored theological position is probably with main line Lutheranism and liberal Anabaptist.

>>452628
What's a "mainline" Lutheranism? As in no confessional and no pietist?

>>452627
Greek philosophy is the foundation of Christianity. Anyone who pretends it's not is just embarrassing themselves.
I respect Catholics because they acknowledge and respect this foundation. Christian beliefs were expressed through Greek categories from the beginning, and all theological debates and Councils were largely discussions of Greek philosophy and how it relates to biblical theology.

>>452633
Heretic detected.

Mixing Christianity with Pagan traditions or Greek philosophy is what lead to Roman Cuckolicism.

Take your founding fathers and stick them up your ass.

>>452644
>pagan traditions

Like the ecumenical councils and the earliest debates about the nature of Christ and God, for instance?

Top kek. I can't figure out how anyone who studies history at all takes american proddies seriously.
If you're going to consider the first few decades of the Church heretical, why would you even call yourself a Christian. Choose some other nice newage religion.

>>452633
Greek philosophy is the foundation of Western Christianity, not Orthodox Christianity.

Christians beliefs were expressed through Greek categories because the NT and the Septuagint are in Greek.

>>452631
Mainline Lutheran means okay with lesbian bishops. The other kind of Lutheranism is the "God made the world in Six Days" Lutheranism.

>>452649
The Papacy was a political institution that only cared about power.

And it is the Catholics right now that are behind the ecumenical movement.

The Vatican and New Agers are teaming up to bring in their alien antichrist saviour.

Get out of Babylon, anon.

>>452631
The religion of modern and productive Scandinavian countries and not some fundamentalist cult in the backwaters of the midwest.

>>452651
Orthodox Christians are Platonist as fuck, they just removed themselves from western philosophy much earlier and all the thinkers that came from the discovery of Aristotle etc. The first seven councils are greek as fuck, as I said.

>>452666

nice trips

>>452666
No we aren't Platonist. Plato is very anti-material.

The First Seven Councils are Greek because Greek was the language used in Christianity since the Epistles. Keeping it Greek made sure terms weren't confused.

>>452672
m8, the language used is less important, what's important is that Christianity is deeply infused with ancient greek ways of thought and philosophy. If you remove christianity from that it turns into a mess, as we've seen in modern times.

This really isn't hard to understand

>>452665
What's your opinion on female bishops/priests? I was raised Lutheran but I just can't comprehend how can anyone justify that shit after reading 1 Corinthians.

>>452677
Orthodox Christianity isn't. You're stuck in a Western mindset.

Protestantism is mess because it is modernist.

>>452665
The Churches of Sweden and Denmark both have gay marriage, right?

>>452610
Yes

>>452699
Well islam literally goes with the "2000 years of Scriptures are all corrupted and only some random dude in the Arabian desert got it right" angle, can't really claim anything.

>>452681
>>452686
All this took place fairly recently and largely due to political pressure from the feminist eurocuck governments but the church had been male dominated for many years and most of it's followers still hold onto to many of the same values that other Christians have. And all this doesn't necessarily invalidate their traditional theology which to me is very sound. Just because one church got a lesbo bishop in quack land doesn't mean I'm going to go become a delusional literalist either.

>>452704
> some random dude in the Arabian desert got it right

But that's exactly what happened, with Jesus. Humans fucked it up

>>452720
Jesus literally goes on record to say all the law of the Pentateuch is correct and still applies, while Mohammed says all the original Abrahamic religions got it wrong and operate with corrupt Scriptures / tradition. World of difference.

>>452704
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0otULYzms

The Vatican created Islam.

>>452720
Except Jesus talked about Jewish beliefs a lot. If Judaism is all false, Christianity is by default false.

>>452716
So sad that Protestants have to be either young earth creationists, or allow their church to perform gay marriages

>>452732
6000 years is not young. That is alot of years.

Its only young when compared to the billion and gorillion myth of evolutionism.

desu cultural catholicism is the only remaining form of Christianity that can have any influence, since a lot of it is based on metaphysics and it doesn't really matter if you believe in the Bible.

Noone with any sense will take Proddies seriously since they're all about muh bible, Orthodox are minorities in third world countries are nobody cares in the west.

>>452163
Protestants don't glorify money, they glorify work. Money is only useful in it that it can be used to produce more money, hence more work.

>>452735
Evolution is supported by fossils, bruh.

>>452740
Wrong.
The fossil record disproves evolution.

Watch Kent Hovinds creation seminar.

>>452215
The Prussian economy was based around Mennonites and Huegenots in 18th century

t: Prussia pro

>>452738
Once the Catholic Church embraces female ordination and gay marriage, the more conservative elements will flock to the Orthodox Church, perhaps whole parishes.

>>452740
Nope.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

>>452732
That's a false dichotomy and you know it.

>>452744
Oh, Protestant. When you are ready for joined the Church Christ founded, come on over and leave your Christian rock and Zionism.

>>452513
Salvation through faith is Protestantism ala Luther.

Calvinist/Mennonite/Hugenots added predestination and worldliness to it. There's a reason why Finland was economically backwards compared to Netherlands.

>>452747
Cripplechan 8gag please go and stay go.

>>452751
>zionism

That's specifically American bullshit, European protestants not only don't endorse it, they're actively against it.

In fact America perverts everything, American Catholics are also much bigger blowhards than their European counterparts.

>>452750
It's mostly accurate, There are a few denominations that aren't creationist and haven't embraced gay marriage, but they are definitely a minority and definitely moving toward gay marriage.

>>452751
When are you going to leave the Whore of Babylon and enter the Body of Christ?

>>452758
Mainline American Protestants don't support it

>>452759
This is an oxymoron.

If you are a Christian, you are a creationist.
There are not Christian evolutionists.

Thats like saying you are a woman hating feminist.

>>452760
How is the Orthodox Church the Whore of Babylon?

>>452764
I'm Orthodox, and the Philokalia contains figurative understandings of Genesis dating back to ancient times.

Protestantism was a mistake from the beginning, if people wanted a more authentic form of Christianity Orthodoxy is the perfect candidate. Maybe a few centuries ago it made sense because they didn't know anything about them, but today? There is literally no reason to be a prod, go orthodox and enjoy your historical unchanged church or whatever

>>452767
Thats because you think higher of tradition rather than scripture.

The Bible is so fucking clear, a literal 6 day creation. It is reinforced in further verses later on.

The Gap Theory has been debunked by Kent Hovind in his first video.

>>452774
Scripture is tradition. The idea that they are separate is very Western.

>>452764
Creationist in the sense that God created the Earth yes, but a YEC? Being a Biblical Christian doesn't mean you have to be a faggot literalist.

>>452774
Except Genesis is full of figurative language as a creation story, and other parts of the bible are much more literal or poetic depending on the goals of the specific book

Scripture is tradition?

What the fuck am I reading..

Russian/Greek Orthodoxy is basically Catholicism Lite.

You do not have a pope, but still have tons of vain repetitions and unscriptural doctrines.

>>452783
Fundamentalism came out of the Enlightenment's move toward everything being objective and rational, with an increased skepticism toward what wasn't hard fact, including philosophy and poetry, and so fundamentalists tried to make the Bible a single unified genre of documented "facts".

>>452786
Sola fide is unscriptural though. Why do you think you have a leg to stand on when your movement was started by men who changed the biblical canon because it didn't suit their brand of religion?

"So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter."

>>452788
Actually it came out of the Renaissance and Reformation..

The 16th century saw a revival largely thanks to the Protestants, while the Catholic church was rotting away.

>>452786
How is Scripture anything but a record of Sacred Tradition? You do know the Gospel of Christ was propagated as Tradition for quite a while before it was written down, yeah?

>>452786
>lite
The Catholic Church is more Orthodox lite. The Catholic Church uses modern art and music, the Orthodox Church doesn't. The Orthodox Church is very serious about not ever changing.

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>>452769
>Catholicism 1.2b
No thanks Ivan I'd rather not talk to inanimate objects.

>>452797
You don't talk to the icon anymore than praying with a cross in front of you is talking to the cross.

>>452774
>a literal 6 day creation

יום can mean literal day but it can also mean a long period of time.

I mean the word "day" has similar meanings even in English, if I say "back in my day, we didn't masturbate to animu porn", the word day doesn't literally mean a 24 hour period.

>>452791
Mark 7 8

But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men

And Paul also says that the churches are going into apostasy DURING HIS LIFETIME.

>>452805
Sacred Tradition is not the doctrine of men, it's the doctrine of God.

1 Corinthians 11:2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-EfW7gYzns

tfw ex muslim

>>452810
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V27RKwOoQbY

I think Orthodoxy would be great if they dropped that idolatrous horseshit. They got it right during the Iconoclast period and then completely fucked it up, starting with John of Damascus.

Protestantism is atomized beyond recognition and Catholicism is just trash.

Can we all atleast agree that the Roman Catholic church is Mystery Babylon?

The Papacy fits all the descriptions of the antichrist church.

Estimates over 50 million Christians were killed by the inquisition and persecutions in Europe.

>>452816
There's nothing idolatrous about kissing icons anymore than there is about kissing the Gospel (which we do too, since it is an icon of the Word of God and therefore an icon of Christ).

>>452820
chick tracts pls go

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29KB, 447x444px

>>452826
>There's nothing idolatrous about kissing icons

m8 ...

>>452827
http://www.remnantofgod.org/666-char.htm

Undeniable.

>>452831
There isn't. Is kissing a locket with a picture of a loved one in it, idolatrous?

>>452826
Are all orthodox this deluded?

>>452796
Happened to be flipping through the channels and saw a Catholic mass on one of the religious channels. I must say, the whole ritual thing seems very weird and obfuscating to me. Seemed like the priest spent half of his time setting things in particular places or doing things a very particular way. I don't really get it, but then again I wasn't raised a Catholic. To be fair, protestant sects have some wacky traditions too. (Looking at you, pentecostals.)

>>452812
>Mary worship

This is why both Catholics and Orthodox are retards.

They cling to the pagan fertility goddess Semiramis/Isis in the form of Mary.

It is unscriptural.
It lowers the deity of Christ.

Calling Mary the queen of heaven or mother of God is a blasphemy.

>>452837
No Orthodox thinks kissing an icon is idolatrous, or else we wouldn't do it.

Is there something wrong with keeping a picture of Jesus in a locket? Is there something wrong with kissing that picture? Do Protestants actually think this?

>>452839
Vain repetitions.

>>452840
So, you're a Nestorian?

>>452820
>Inquisition killed 60 GORILLION

Actually, new historical records have discovered that most people were released and as a whole the Inquisition was a pretty advanced legal practice. The reason it was started in the first place was as an alternative to secular courts, which wouldn't have any problem with killing you immediately for disrespecting the king's divine authority.

>>452844
Nestorians, Waldensians, Cathars, and any other group of the middle ages were called so by their enemies.

They never called themselves that way. They referred themselves as brothers or Christians.

They are proof that Bible believing Christians have always existed, it didnt begin with Luther.

>>452835
If it's done as a religious ceremony, you bet it is.

>>452849
Do
You
Believe
That
Christ's human and divine nature were separate?

>>452845
Nigger please, the Catholics created the most horrendous torture devices in the middle ages.

Like, how is that in any way Christian? Sounds pretty Satanic to me how they burned and tortured confessions out of people.

Papal Rome was worse than the pagan Roman empire.

>>452842
We prefer more direct and abstract form of worship. It's one of the customs which differentiates Protestants from Catholics.

>>452849
>Protestants claim that every heresy the councils denied is actually totally christian and alright

What a surprise.

>>452852
Not him, but how is that fucking related to almost elevating Mary on Christ's level?

>>452851
As opposed to kissing an icon of Christ secularly?

>>452858
It has to do with whether or not Mary can be considered the Mother of God, and also the Mother of the Church (as the Church is Christ's Body).

>>452856
>abstract form

Speaking as a Lutheran, you're wrong. The ceremonial / ritual worship is clearly Biblical, abstract faggotry is New Age postmodernist heresy.

>>452852
Christ is 100% man and 100% God.

He is the Son of Man.
He is our bridge, our intermediary.

Mary is not to be worshipped, she was a sinner like the rest of us.

She always did not remain a virgin forever, she had children with Joseph!

What you have done is taken a pagan goddess known throughout the pagan world, and transformed it into Mary. This is how Satan corrupts and twists Christianity.

>>452864
Do you think his 100% man and 100% God were separate? Because if you don't, then there is no way you can say Mary being the mother of Jesus is not Mary being the mother of God.

>>452857
>tyrannical evil pope persecutes christians in the name of power and politics
>call whoever disagrees with your organized system a heretic

>>452864
>She always did not remain a virgin forever, she had children with Joseph!
Joseph was an old man when he married her, he already had kids.

>>452867
Where in the Bible does it say Mary is the mother of God?

Where in the Bible does it hint you at worshipping her?

Exactly, nowhere.

>>452872
Where in the Bible does it say that you can remove books from the biblical canon?
Where in the Bible does it say that scripture is the only authority?

Exactly, nowhere.

>>452853
i like how catholics never have an answer for this

they have a very bloody history

>>452872
It says Mary was Jesus's mother. Do you think Jesus is God?

Latria is not afforded to Mary.

>>452875

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3 16

>>452881
Uh, how is that suggesting Scripture is the only authority?

>>452877
Mary was a vessel.

But nowhere does it hint you at worshipping her like a fucking cult.

The entire Bible is about Jesus Christ, not Mary.

>>452881
Yup, it is all of those things, together with the unwritten tradition of the Church.

>>452861
It might not have been the best word but it gives a general description in contrast to the heavily ritualized catholic and orthodox practices. No rosary,saint or icon veneration or things like penance.

>>452886
http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-proof-texts.htm

Tons of verses support sola scriptura.

Compare that with the only 1 verse of Peter and the rock that supposedly supports apostolic succession.

Islam and the fall of the Ottoman empire is also an example of a failed socioeconomic culture.

>>452894
These shitty prod websites are so hilarious. Did this survive from the 90s?

>>452877

When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

So apparently Mary is the Mother of John now.

>>452896
Judging a book by its cover.

>>452897
catholics BTFO

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47KB, 474x656px

>>452887
Do you think Mary was Jesus's Mother?

We venerate her because she is God's Mother and the Church's Mother. She was a child, about as old as the kid in this picture, when she gave birth to Jesus, it was probably excruciating agony for it, and she accepted it knowing the massive danger it put her in when she was already betrothed to Joseph, her fear must have been tremendous, and she accepted all that willingly...and then she had to watch her son be tortured to death. Protestants marginalize her, and it is disgraceful. You should be thanking her every day for what she did for you.

O, Virgin Pure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs

>>452902
Catholics call Mary the Mother, referring to all believers, it's not exactly a cutting remark.

>>452904
You worship a pagan fertility goddess and dont even know it.

I've seen studies done on for example Switzerland, which is a country with several languages and several religious denominations.

They found that mother tongue had more to say than religious denomination.

German speakers had stronger work ethics than Frenchmen, and Frenchmen stronger than Italians.

They also discussed the fact that the cantons in Switzerland that became protestant were mostly those where the merchant class were stronger than the clerical class, which is understandable. In Europe in general, protestantism flourished in the regions the furthest away from the influence of Rome, and thus regions where the merchant class or aristocracy or both were much stronger than the clerics. Regions close to Rome had the most to benefit from staying with the pope, as religious donations from the rest of Europe flowed to Rome and made them rich, while the ones furthest from had the most to gain to cut ties with Rome as Rome took their money and gave nothing back.

>>452894
None of these verse were even "Scripture" when they were written, you'd have to reject Sola Scriptura at the time to even accept them as valid.

>>452910
You slight your Holy Mother and you do know it.

My main problem with Catholicism is how carnal and worldly it is.

The Papal system was so political and focused on power. Popes were basically emperors.

Jesus said that our kingdom is not of this world.

>>452864
Bruh unless you're a Jehovah's Witness, you probably engage in pagan symbolism all of the time. Most of our holidays are filled with it. I don't understand why protestants always feel the need to throw the devil worship shit out there. Catholics have a governing body for their spiritual beliefs, but we protestants are allowed to think for ourselves a little more. It's unnecessary and devalues the many legitimate grievances with Catholocism.
>>452861
How many of those rituals are truly biblical though? The eucharist and baptisms, sure, I could buy that. But all of the pageantry, robe wearing, speaking in Latin, confessing to priests, veneration of saints, kissing the pope's ring, the VERY IDEA OF A POPE ITSELF, etc.? I see no biblical basis for these things being 100% required beyond the presupposition that the Catholic church is infallible.

>>452904
>the Church's Mother
Asspull if I've ever seen one.

>>452897
So she is clearly the Mother of God, unless you are suggesting Christ isn't God.

>>452923
The Church is the Body of Christ according to the NT, so....

>>452924
>I step inside a car

>that car brings me from point A to point B

>therefore that car is above me and I should worship the car and call it the God of Anon

>>452920
Its the Whore of Babylon anon.

It makes even more sense when you connect the fact that they worship Mary as the Queen of Heaven or Mother of God.

Whore indeed, a pagan cult.

>>452933
>God is conception takes place within her
>she gives birth to God
>she breastfeeds God
>she raises God
>no, not just God's human nature, but God
>but she is in no way his mother.

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1MB, 1267x670px

thanks for taking my bait, /his/

>>452939
They don't worship Mary. Stop.

>>452957
There are tons of pictures showing them bow to Mary statues.

Its borderline idolatry.

>>452960
Yes, that's how ancients used to show respect for their mothers.

Although Orthodox have a problem with statues. We think icons must be strictly two-dimensional (including in style), or else they skirt their purpose as an icon.

>protestants were a mistake
>t. martin luther KANG

>>452978
>We think icons must be strictly two-dimensional (including in style), or else they skirt their purpose as an icon.
To clarify here, an icon has the specific function of being an icon of the truth, but when it poses too much as the truth itself, and is seen as such, it becomes an idol. Protestant treatment of the Bible is a prime example, here: the Orthodox see the Bible as an icon of the truth, not the truth itself, but Protestants see the Bible as the truth itself the sole authority, they treat the Bible as God, they make an idol out of it, rather than an icon. The Bible is a description of the truth in terms for human beings, but treating it as the truth itself would be like treating a child's stick figure portrait as Thur itself.

>>452960
The argument that there are idolatrous aspects to Catholocism is an easy one to make, but saying they're satanist Isis worshippers makes you sound like a cultist weirdo. I find many of their practices to be unnecessary and obfuscating, and a few rather distasteful, but they're our brothers and sisters in places Christ. They should be treated with respect and enticed to fellowship rather than scornded and slandered.

>>452921
The Church is the restored temple of Jerusalem and resumes its ritual practices tho

>>452945
Is that the Orthodox qt that has youtube vids?