Does /his/ agree that communism is the worst thing that can possibly

Worst economic system. Capitalism mixed with socialism would have to be the best.

>>420666
>>420670
You should both just kill yourselves for the betterment of humanity

>>420666
A theocracy would be worse imho, but yeah, gommunism is shit tier. Try Anarchism, it doesn't work either, but it is way more fun.

>>420677
When has communism every benefited the people?

>>420677
OP here, either you're a troll or deserve to be sent to the Democratic Republic of North Korea asap

>>420666
Your pic is related, satan.

>>420686
In every established socialist country the communists increase standards of living, literacy, education, health, and every category for the wide population. People get confused and think when expat "refugees" like Miami gusanos talk about their mansions being robbed that this means there wasn't a majority of people that didn't have mansions.

>>420666
Yes

If by communism you mean "people who identify as communist/socialist taking power".

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>>420700
>mfw born in communist Czechoslovakia and reading this

Memes aside, there really never has been a true communist country. Some countries tried, but none actually finished the process.

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>>420726
>seriously implying communists didn't liberate your peasant scum ancestors from annihilation from the Nazi scourge so you could shitpost on 12kun

>>420740
Actually they confiscated their entire estate and then made everyone fuck poor during the currency reform.

>peasant

Nice projecting.

>>420738
>my specific form of communism has never been tried

It seems to have a terrible affect on agrarian societies.
But Marx would have told you that himself

>>420700
Just like when Lenin considering people did not want to vote him just said fuck this and instaured a dictatorship.
Also living under Stalin must have been nice, unless you werent one of those millions who got killed.

One quick peek at this board and is chockful of trolling.

>>420700
Yes, socialist governments maintained a somewhat high standard of life, but at what cost? All the postcommunist Eastern European contries are drowning in debts, and they will do so for at least a hundred years just because of 10-15 "good years".

no. i think that some plague that spreads everywhere and makes you shit your guts out before you drown in your own blood would be worse.

>>420748
If you were not a worker, then it´s logical you didnt like it.

>>420773
>All the postcommunist Eastern European contries are drowning in debts
That would be because of liberal reforms/West European takeover.

>>420748
No, they made the rich "poor". Horrors.

>>420783
Actually workers were fucked over too, mostly by the 1953 currency reform which was nothing but an organized robbery and wage laborers were hit the hardest. There was like 20k industrial workers alone protesting it before the government decided to fuck them up.

All in all the whole thing made it worse for everyone and degraded a developed country to a Russia-tier shithole in less than 50 years.

>>420788
Nah it's because socialist Eastern Europe was spending like crazy while maintaining relative low income tax and shit GDP growth, this created unreal amounts of debt.

>All those western europeans swallowing the american anti-communist propaganda

t. Pole

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No

>>420876

Yeah communism is so great!

>>420876
>t. Tyler Szszeski from Chicago

ftfy

>>420666
being "liberated" by communists is worse

>>420738
muh changing process
muh transition state
muh its not communist yet
muh if you would stop fighting it it would work

>>421834
>>420749
But he's right you know...

I'd argue that getting depopulated, destroyed, and replaced is worse but yeah communism is pretty shit for a country.

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>>420666

Any extreme right or leftwing idealology is bad for a country. The more you move away from the center of the scale, the less agreeable and more hard-line one's positions become. As such, increasingly authoritarian measures have to be undertaken to enforce said ideaology.

Liberal and conservative parties in positions of power are near the center of the scale, generally speaking. Their policies are agreeable so they enjoy support from a sizable amount of the population they rule over. Fascist and communist rulers sit on the far ends of the scale, where its as hard as hard-line gets. Their policies don't appeal to most people so they have to rely on demagoguery, deception, force, and fear to keep their countries in order. Even then, authoritarian regimes of that nature tend to be inefficient and short-lived because of corruption, poor infrastructure, and the resentment of their most mistreated subjects.

>>420788
lol no, if not for the EU we would be on the level of somalia or something, despite what anyone says

>>420666
Not the worst, but among the worst. The worst is cultural marxism, something that has taken hold of the west. I'll take communism over that any time.

>>420876
>a pole defending soviets

>>420760
Agreed. Communism doesn't play nice with farmers. Anarchism seems to do better which is why Catalonia, a former agriculture based province, is one of the more industrially developed parts of Spain.

>>421877
>getting depopulated, destroyed, and replaced
This is what commies did.

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>>422190
>Catalonia being industrial is the result of anarchism

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>>422190
>Anarchism
>Origin of the Catalan Industry
>Not being otherwise
>mfw

Stay delusional, Antonio.

>>420808
gommies btfo

>>420666
Anarchy is far worse. As is confederation.

>>422190
Catalonia was one of the more industrially developed parts of Spain before anyone in the country heard that Bakunin or Marx existed.

Plus the anarchists were enemies with the industrial elites.

>>421890
Politics can't be simplified into a two-sided scale.

>>420666
Whyis this on /his/ tbqh, no historical reference point in the OP, just
>gommunism bad okay
Surely this sort of mindless circlejerk content be in /pol/, and that if you are posting here it should be a more rigorous critique using actual arguments?

>>420748
>>422934
No.
Not btfo.
It's not btfo because they quite literally never learn. It's like they legitimately have autism.

>>421874
>try to achive it
>slaughter tens of millions in the process because of MUH FEELS
>fail to achive it
>BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN TRIED! WE HAVE TO *TRY* AGAIN.

>>424225
Marxism is on the level of alchemy right now. Originally something created out of scientific curiosity turned into a voodoo religion ignoring all empirical facts.

>>424237
Marxism is some kind of level of analysis. I don't understand it at all, it's something about being critical of one's self from some kind of standpoint?
I don't know.
But the solutions proposed are quite literally impossible, Human nature does not allow it. There is also evidence to point that a large part of our beliefs are genetically based too (twin studies).
Ultimately communisms biggest fluke is its failure to adapt.
Where as this hyper inflated global capitalism produces so much waste; we can adapt to support a medium population at very high standards, where communism would need to purge 90% of the world to make sure they can all be equal.

>>420666
>Does /his/ agree that communism is the worst thing that can possibly happen to a nation?

It certainly has undesirable qualities. But there are much worse things to happen to a nation:

The Nazis invade
The black plague
Nuclear holocaust
Genocidal civil war
etc...

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>>420666

>>424225

People die every day due to the inequalities of capitalism.

http://inequality.org/inequality-health/

>>424259
Nazis invading could be a good thing.
Ukrainians first hailed them, Cheks and others fought along side them.
I would say Nazi occupation during later years is what you mean.

>>424268
Nobody is equal.
You have to earn your equality.
Otherwise, tough shit you lazy bum.
You have
>a steady stream of death over time because some people didn't work, or failed miserably throughout their lives
>99% of the population doing pretty okay in regards to the rest of the world
>can defend itself and retain it's soviernty
where in communism
>tens of millions slaughtered in a short time frame
>extreme political ideology
>shit standard of living
>falls to international pressure
>generally the most oppressive and horrible for the working class and everyone else rather than the champion of it

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>>424264
Lmfao.
This guy is a complete joke.
Literally voted to ruin the economy once, and wants to do it again.

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>>420666
Global thermonuclear war is probably worse.

>>424278

>tens of millions died

That's largely Cold War propaganda.

Meanwhile capitalism kills millions every year, including in the US, where nearly a million excess deaths due to income equality happen a year and a larger percentage of the population are imprisoned than in the USSR with its famed gulags.

>>420666
cvck mod tbqh
> Do not try to treat this board as /pol/ with dates.
There isn't even a fucking date.

>>424285
>c-cold war p-propaganda!
>here is m-my source f-from the Soviets n-national archive!
>N-not d-doctored at a-all!
Yeah fuck off
>meanwhile millions die every year
Do you know what the number one killer in America is?
Do you know how tiny and insignificant the deaths caused by "income inequality" that you're so falsly proportion, are?

>>424278

>Nobody is equal.
>You have to earn your equality.
>Otherwise, tough shit you lazy bum.

Glad to see you're in favour of banning inheritance and private schooling. Welcome to the left.

>>424264
>INEQUALITY IS BAD BECAUSE IT'S BAD

Can this meme stop?

Example A:

>one guy has a mansion and 10 cars
>other guy has a mere apartment and 1 car
>massive nequality

Example B:

>both guys live in a shared hovel and ride a shared bicycle
>perfect equality

Which is more desirable? If you say B you might be a communist.

>>424292
>Do you know how tiny and insignificant the deaths caused by "income inequality" that you're so falsly proportion, are?

You were just provided with a source showing it is nearly a million a year.

And if you bother to look it up you will find estimates of deaths in the USSR under Stalin have been massively reduced by historians since we gained access to the Soviet records after the Cold War, it turns out we bullshitted ourselves.

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>>424295
>implying that inheritance is not a continuity of earning equality
>implying that the family is not one organism that constitutes it's own wealth forward
>trying to be sly and dismissive like a liberal cuck
Yeah no
wealth is earned over generations of people faggot, get used to it. Don't harm me because your suck shit father didn't work as hard.

>>422199
not quite
my nation increased by 30% in population
(+3million) during gommunism

>>424303
all nobles should be hanged
starting with you, coward

>>424302
Nigger what? Two million Americans die in one year and you're claiming 50% of that is due to inequality?

>>424299

Even right wing organisations like the OECD are now discovering that inequality hurts economic growth.

http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/inequality-hurts-economic-growth.htm

How about you learn some facts?

>>424305
Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Germans, Estonians and many other people were getting displaced and killed.

>>424302
Nigger, those deaths you're attributing to "income inequality" are completely made up. They are just deaths catsrogized into some arbitrary notion to fit a narrative.
So no, it's not "a million a year". That's outrageous as claiming 1 in 5 women get raped or sexually harassed.
Now, do you know how many people die of CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE?
Real, actual statistics.
610,000 people a year die from basically being too fat, as in, we are so wealthy we can have our number one killer be unhealthness (inb4 you claim this to be "income inequalities fault).
Number two is cancer, causing another 600,000 deaths.
And so on.
It's literally a made up statstic you're spouting.

>t-the n-umbers have b-been reduced!
Sounds like you're a holocaust denier m8.
>>>/pol/

>>424303

>You have to earn your equality
>People born out of the right cunts should be given everything regardless of their own personal abilities

Explicit contradiction and you know it.

>the family is an organism

Grasping at straws and magical thinking. Rekt

>>424314
>hurts economic growth

Considering some of the most inequal places like China and India have had the highest growth rates in the last 10 years, I call horseshit.

And I don't think I need to lecture you about the economic growth of Soviet countries which was utter shit compared to their western counterparts.

>>424309

More like two and a half million and yes approx a third are due to income inequality.

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>>424308
>He is more succesful than me!
>Muh
>feels
Peasant filth.
I will eat your children.
>>424324
>le rekt XDDDDD
reddit, go back there.
>>424328
Literally a made up statstic based on a narrative.

>>424328
Explain that. Like give me some example of someone dying thanks to inequality.

>>424327

Even the IMF admits income inequality hurts economic growth.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42986.0

>>424324
>I have money
>I decide my child should get the money afyer I die

Who the fuck are you to tell me what to do with my own money, bitch

>>424332
He will say something about starvation, or something about poor people being fat because they
"Can't afford healthy food" rather than not just being too lazy.

I've been there, it's not hard as long as you don't pop out 5 children and take some personal responsibility.

The people voting for berncuck have no principles.

>>424331

Didn't even try to deny you're explicitly contradicting yourself. Tapped out like a BITCH

>>424332
>>424331

Based on evidence.

http://inequality.org/inequality-health/

>>424337

Meritocracy. Don't like it? Don't claim to care about it or individual liberty.

>>424343
On my phone and can't open links for some reason, I apologize.

Just give me, in your own words, an example of someone dying of inequality. For the love of God I honestly can't imagine it.

>>424348
I hate meritocracy, it's a selfish pipe dream much like communism. Also I'm not the guy you originally argued with.

>>424308
Come and hang me yourself, tough guy.

>>424340
I'm in no way contradicting myself.
You simply claimed it with no proof.
Each man is made of what is before him, you shan't punish me because your father didn't work hard and mine did.
>>424343
>you see all these deaths?
>yeah, all caused by income inequality because I say so
>*slides entire stack of poker chips*
>*dealer says no you can't do that*
>Yes I can
Fuck off with your psudo-statistical bullshit. People die for a complex number of reasons, you're trying to buy votes by cashing in on people's desire to not be held accountable for their own actions.

>>424357
>Things need to be perfect to be worth pursuing.

Look, right now you can go to any shitty high school in the US, free of charge, and if you work hard enough, you can almost certainly get a scholarship to a good school. Hell, West Point and Annapolis are about the most powerful roads to power on the planet, and those are totally free of charge.

>>424357
>literally based on merit rather than popularity
>allows the truly great to become powerful in their respective fields and lead the country for the better
It's better than democracy desu.
>>424372
I got scholarships to TAMU, ASU, Hillsdale, and tons of others. I didn't qualify because of my wealth.

>>424372
What are you even arguing about right now? I'm okay with people making as much money as they can. I just don't think merit should the prerequisite for ruling, if you even know what the -cracy in meritocracy means.

>>424374
Birthright or bust.

>>424350

Well for a start if you were murdered by a poor person because they had turned to crime because of income inequality.

There are also links, for example, showing income inequality leads to increased mental health issues and suicide.

Poor people also tend to have worse diets leading to issues such as diabetes or obesity.

>>424350
>no reply

Well that's a pity.

>>424378
Incorrect, otherwise the great minds and thinkers from all periods, even today, would never have been succesful.
Your delusions have grown more and more.
I used nothing but the schools resources for my educational venture friend, and it was a public school aswell.

>>424384
Exactly as I thought, removing personal responsibility to get votes.
Holy fuck the left has stooped to an all time moral low. Just down right disgusting.
Justifying murder for their ruinous political ideology.

>>424370

Not because "I say so" because of studies by epidemeologists that prove so.

> People die for a complex number of reasons

Exactly and income inequality has been show to exacerbate several of them.

>>424370

I directly paraphrased and quoted two of your statements which stand in direct contradiction with each other. I suggest your 'father' hire a better tutor if you fail to see the inherent contradiction between your two stated beliefs.
No, a man is made of a man. A parent's characteristics only matter in so far as they are likely to be replicated in the child. To think otherwise is voodoo.

Pleb.

>>424384
In those cases poverty is the problem and not inequality. You can have a perfectly equal society where everyone is shit poor (hell the Soviet block countries pretty much achieved that). And likewise you can have a very inequal society where the median is much wealthier.

>>424394

>Exactly as I thought, removing personal responsibility to get votes.

What the fuck are you talking about because I'm talking about studies about doctors of societal effects at a macro level.

Whether each individual has "personal responsibility" is irrelevant. From a scientific point of view it's probably complete bullshit anyway.

>post war england
>everyone is poor
>queue socialist government
>quality of rise raises
>the welfare state reforms still apply today

It worked in the UK.

>>424384
>poor people = obesity

Contrary to what horseshit healthmags claim, veggies and fruits are not more expensive than stuffing your face with Tacos. Just go to a grocery store andcsee for yourself.

The key thing is stupidity. Stupid people tend to be poor and they also tend to get fat. Because they lack discipline and long term thinking.

>>424395
Fuck off, it's a made up statstic and this will be the last time I reply about it.
>>424398
My father was gone for most of the time, doing business, and my mother was a lunatic who divorced him.
I had no tutors but my own friends and an Internet connection.

I shouldn't have to pay because your father didn't work as hard as mine.
Do you know, he was the first in my family to ever go to college? For many generations going all the way back to Hesse and Bavaria in Germany. However, He was a farm boy in Thorndale, TX. He barley even have the money to go to TAMU.
But he went, and then was broke afterwords; so he joined the airforce for 20 years, and then went back and got his doctorate. So fuck off mate.
There is absolutely no contradiction in any of my statements.

A man is not made of only himself, but those before him, and his success built upon it.

I shouldn't have to pay because your father, or his father before him didn't work hard enough.

>>424410
>Fuck off, it's a made up statstic and this will be the last time I reply about it.

Well as long as your last reply is to feebly whine and pitifully bleat like a frightened and foolish little child that valid epidemeological studies by qualified doctors are "made up" purely based on your own anger and lack of comprehension.

>>424410

>I had no tutors but my own friends and an Internet connection.

It shows.

>I shouldn't have to pay because your father didn't work as hard as mine

Not receiving things you didn't earn isn't paying. Try again.

>Do you know, he was the first in my family to ever go to college? For many generations going all the way back to Hesse and Bavaria in Germany. However, He was a farm boy in Thorndale, TX. He barley even have the money to go to TAMU.

And what have you done to deserve the fruits of his labour? Fallen out of a lunatic's cunt?

>barely even have

Should have hired that tutor.

>There is absolutely no contradiction in any of my statements.

Except there is and you know it.

Now, contrary to your childish attempts to assert some form of petty dominance by coat tailing on the achievements of your father, I actually come from a wealthy background and went to private school. Keep grasping at straws though, you new money pleb.

>>420700
Spotted the rare commie americant. You don't know shit.

Our world was ruined by communism more than even the fascists could have done. Your ignorance and stupidity is a testament to how your nation's comfort has spoiled you, allowing you to forget that the freedom you possess now comes with a price tag.

Go end yourself, like every commie deserves.

>>420793
>stealing money is okay if the victim is rich

This is what commies actually believe

>>424517
Let me guess, you are born in an ex communist country, and despite never having actually lived under a communist regime you feel deeply injured by it.

Protip: your country was shit before communism, and its shit after it. An attempt to fix it was made, it failed, and you are where you started, in the shitter.

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>>424544
Not him, but plenty of ex-commies were rather wealthy before communism. The "it was always shit" argument reaaly only works with Russia and I guess Romania and Bulgaria.

>>424544
its usually butthurt nobles/fascists or wealthy peasants grandchildren who is wealthy again now, since mommy and daddy got their shit back from the state
but its hip to hate "gommies"

>>424564
More like the only Easterners being nostalgic about communism are the descendants of near braindead, illiterate dirt shovelers who received an apartment just for having a pulse. Everyone normal hated it.

>>424549
$1800 isnt rather wealthy. Its shit. You are comparing these shit countries to other shit countries.

>>424571
more like you have no idea what you are talking about underaged shitstain

>>420666
I'd imagine that "losing a total war" would probably be worse than adopting a different political system, but whatever

>>424574
It's not shit at all for those times, $1800 per capita would put you in the world's top 12.

>>424576
I'm 30, how old are you if you call me underaged?

>>424584
Germany and Russia had $80000 each, how is $1800 not shit?

>>424574
>Austria
>Italy
>shit countries

>>424591
Yes?

>>424590
>Russia
>80k per capita in the 30s

Dude ... Not want to break your bubble, but you either have no idea what per capita means or you're seriously implying that Russia was richer than fucking Monaco is now.

>>424590
>Russia 80000 USD per capita

0/10 weakest bait of the month

>>424593
Austria was and is one of the wealthiest countries on Earth.

>>424594
>>424600
Russia had $75,964 GDP in 1938, from numbers given by Paul Bairoch, in 1960 US dollars.

>>424606
Absolute dogshit. Austria was bottom half in 1938.

>>424607
GDP =/= GDP per capita you gigantic retard.

>>424574
>Czhczkia
>shit during the interwar period
literally what

>>424607
>dat slav reading comprehension

>>424607
Best be trolling nigger.

>>424613
>>424610
How is per capita at all relevant when measuring a country' economy?

>>424619
It closely correlates with living standards for one, while GDP total just measures the size of the economy.

>>424619
wew lad

>>424607
Russia/USSR
>75,964M GDP
>162M poor souls
>469$ per capita
confirmed for shittiest tier imaginable above aids ridden african fialed states in civil war with 20 different sides

>>424619
Not even going to dignify this with a proper reply. No wonder all commie countries went belly up if they were ruled by people like this.

>>424619
>when someone beliefs so strong it overwrites common sense

propaganda works

>>424638
>>424636
>>424635
>>424632
>>424625
Niggers in what way, and on what planet, does standard of living dictate the size of a country's economy?
We arent talking who can afford more rose scented soap here, we are talking country economy size.
Stop letting muh feels get in the way of what is essentially math.

Probably fascism to be quiet honest with you family

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>>424642
>he's going all out

>>424642
you're american aren't you?

Here, take a look at the original post and reply.

>>424544
>>424549

Then have a quick think (difficult, I know) about what should be used for comparison, GDP or GDP per capita.

>>424651
Do you think Nigerians are wealthier than Luxembourgers? Genuine question now.

>>424655
Isn't that something I should ask you?
Wait, I'm getting confused by your idiocy.

>>424655
I think Nigeria is wealthier than Luxembourg.
I also think you know this too, and we are disagreeing on the question, rather than the answer.

>>424658
He probably was asking me, and misquote.

>>424661
We're talking about people, as would everyone else. Obviously with a bigger population you're going to have higher total GDP, hence why GDP per capita is key.

>>424585
Still waiting on my answer.

>>424674
We are talking about weather a country is rich or not. A country with a bigger population finds it easier to be rich, regardless of the personal worth of each individual.

>>424682
A country with a small population but high GDP per capita isn't a shithole. If someone mentions wealth in 99% of cases we're talking living standards. Also I'm done with this thread since you're either a troll or the biggest retard on the planet.

>>420666
No, atleast gommunism could make you win a world war :^)

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>>424748
>gommunism could make you win a world war
can't make you win cold ones though

Mongol invaders is pretty bad too.

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>>420666
Maybe.

Either way it's a pointless discussion to hold, as man is doomed to roam the earth destitute, unhappy and alone until the day the Prince of Peace once again descends on this Earth.

>>420686
Not him but in pretty much every country where Communism was installed the citizens had better quality of lives than they had before. China, Russia, Yugoslavia and so on.
They didn't have lives as good as the ones the developed western capitalist countries had but Communism for them was ten times better than Feudalism.

>>420726
Christ, what are you like 40?

not him, but
>tfw actually 40

>>425143
fuck, meant for
>>425114

>>424678
32 asshat
want my ID aswell?

>>420666 21st century style fascism/
Natsoc is probably worse. Germany and Italy were buried in a decade by it. Gommunist states from the 40s are still kicking about. China cuba and Vietnam aren't great but they aren't Africa either.

>>424225
Communism isn't something that's tried. It's the endgame, according to Marx. The countries that tried it ended up as totalitarian dictatorships that looked nothing like actual communist states.

>>425151
It actually led to great improvements in economy and infrastructure.

>>425106
that is very simply just the product of the natural economic growth of the 20th century.

Some bumfuck peasant from rural France 1900 had a very similar life to a bumfuck peasant in rural ex-Austrian Yugoslavia.

But, if you look at the growth indicators, they seriously stagnated after the introduction of communism.

Russia, for example, was experiencing a huge boom in urbanisation, industrialisation and general economic growth pre ww1.
Now, I'm not saying it was only the commie fault, a lot of it had to do with the actual world war and civil war, but the growth post 1930s wasn't through some inherent communist property, but simply due to Russia picking itself back up again.

>>420666
No. I think it's silly that the same people who tell you that communism has been proven a failure will also say the Chinese will dominate the world.

ITT: westerner who never lived under communist regime and only see the negligible positive aspects of it

t. Pole

>>425272
>we wuz kings, son, but dem darn commies made us poor!

Socialism and communism are the two worst things to ever happen to humans.

>>420700
>People get confused and think when expat "refugees" like Miami gusanos talk about their mansions being robbed that this means there wasn't a majority of people that didn't have mansions.


this

>>420726
don't confuse communism with the soviet regime.
Real communists were with the Spring.

>>420760
>>422190
>communists hate farmers

military propaganda at its finest

it was in agrarian societies were communism and anarchism found their foothold at most: Spain, Vietnam, China, Latin America.

>>424538
no its what societies all over the planet have idolised.

>>420666
Idk about worst, but "communism" as it has historically manifested in the cases of the USSR, Mao's China, Cuba during the Cold War, etc., have all been pretty bad to my knowledge.

>>424254
>I don't understand it at all

>proceeds to reach conclusions

>>424254
>we can adapt to support a medium population at very high standards, where communism would need to purge 90% of the world to make sure they can all be equal.
>where communism would need to purge 90% of the world to make sure they can all be equal.

there are professors in universities right now professing that the world, under the current system, can not sustain over 15 bil. people.

>>425310
>That True Scotsman fallacy

Careful what you say, bro. Communism may sound great on paper, but I think the determining factor should be how it actually manifested in the real world, not theories or rhetoric. And even if you say "but none of those were true communist societies" or something like that, then you paint communism as an ideology or system that is so weak or so easily corrupted that it can't even get off the ground. In any event, I respect your opinion, even if you think communism is a great idea.

>>425325
Actually the USSR was a capitalist democracy. You disagree? No true scotsman fallacy! Yes, they were, and your disagreement is a fallacy.

>>425325
>how it actually manifested in the real world

it didn't, at least not in the way you think it did.

The Spring of Prague was one of the leading factors leading to the schism within the communist parties.
It wasn't ideology that divided them: it was the armed uprising of the proletarians of Prague that had to reflect itself in the theory. The reality of the uprising proved that the revolutionary theory can't hold soviet states as manifestation of communism.

Communism is not imposed from top to bottom and it certainly can't be "implemented" as a system of governance with a regime change. It's the result of historic shifts in the ways of production that lead ultimately to changes in the social sphere, just as capitalism was and tributocracies before that.

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>>425301
ahh, the good ol days before socialism....

>>425325
It's not a true scotsman fallacy because

> USSR did not claim to practise communism (see: constitution)
> Marxist theory does not acknowledge Soviet Mode of Production as a Communistic one

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>>425352

What exactly are you trying to say? That socialism has somehow helped poverty? rofl

>>425312

Yet millions upon millions of people died? Millions of Ukrainians disagree with you, the whole nation of Venezuela disagrees with you.

>>420666
Since communism aims at the abolition of nations as such, it would be pretty shameful if it wasn't up there, but I'd say annihilation is worse.

>>425467
>>425468

you may want to go back to /pol/, thank you

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>>425452
Are you saying you don't even know about state socialism of the 19th century and unionisation?
Or the general prosperity of social democracies?

lmao, go read a book

>>425452
Socialism has increased the economic conditions of the masses in every single country it has been established for more than a few years. This is empirically factual.

>>425462
And millions of Ukrainians used the pretext of capitalist-nationalist revolution to kill 1.5-2 million Jews, far greater as a % than what Soviet famine, largely caused by Ukrainian peasants themselves just few years earliers.

>>425452
I could as well post a picture of a labour prison or the post-war concentration camps in Greece.

>>425468
> Juche
> Communism
Note: North Korea was the economically more prosperous one until 1978, after which it went for Fascist-inspired Autarky under the guide of Juche. Their constitution has zero mentions of Marx, Marxism, Socialism, Communism or anything else that can be interpret to relate to politics of Marx.

>>425147
Sure go ahead.

>>425294
Swap kings with military dictators and you'd be right.

>>425485
Private means of production = it's still capitalism :^)

t. Marx

>>425518
>my specific form of communism has never been tried

>>425571
pay attention to the conversation.

>>425471
Fuck off back to gulag

>>420666
Soviet style communism is one of the worst systems imaginable, but not so bad as Naziism. But this is kind of on-point:

>>420670

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>>420700
>kill half the population
>now you got twice the possessions
>communism increases standards of living
>mfw

>>425624
You could argue it is worse than nazism, at least the nazis weren't genociding their own. Stalin killed more Soviet people than Hitler.

>>425485
>>425508
>>425517

I don't know if I feel bad for you or if I should dislike you.

You clearly don't know what socialism is nor the harm it does to humanity, even to this day.

Socialism is inherently dangerous in many ways, freedom, economically etc.

>>425229
>Russia, for example, was experiencing a huge boom in urbanisation, industrialisation and general economic growth pre ww1.
You have any facts to back this up?

>>425761
Ever heard of Transsiberian railway? Fact is Russia actually stagnated economically after commies took over, all the way until the early 30s when Stalin started repairing.

>>425761
I am phone now, but will post some shit later

>>425624
Nazi germany was on the brink of economic collapse in the late 30s.
If they hadnt plundered european wealth and generally start transitioning into a war economy (in the 40s), they'd go kaput.

Hitlerian revitalisation of economy is a meme

>>425312
Agrarian societies have more inequality, so they tend to flock to communism harder.

But they are usually too dependent on external markets for even basic things like agricultural equipment to even hope to properly function as communist states.

>literally millions of people die of hunger in the global capitalist economy every year, more than even the most trumped up cold war statistics in the black book of gommnism
>people in this thread actually saying no one has ever died from inequality
This is why communism happens tbhlads.

>>425713
you clearly cling on to your beliefs and refuse to know history

>>425871
Dying from poverty isn't the same as dying from "inequality" you retarded non-white fuck. See >>424399

>>425843
>But they are usually too dependent on external markets for even basic things like agricultural equipment to even hope to properly function as communist states.


that only means that they are in conflict with the rest of the capitalism-shaped world. If the goods (like the equipment you said) was truly free circulating, as it would in a communist world, they wouldn't have any problem.
The level of production, the quantity of goods and the knowledge to manufacture them are allowing us, at this moment in history, to overcome scarcity. The only thing holding us back, are the elites.

>>420666
The worst? I guess we could dream up things that are worse, but on the whole very leftist nations certainly have had to deal with pretty terrible results. Some previously socialist nations don't even exist as socialist nations anymore (USSR, Khemer Rouge). Socialism/communism ideology permits the nation government to become authoritarian and in some cases like North Korea totalitarian. These governments have, time and again, done awful things to their own people both intentionally (labor camps) and unintentionally (failed economic policies that either erode the value of their currency, cause rampant unemployment, or stagflation) and finally after all is said and done, government officials end up personally enriching themselves and doing the very same evil things they accused private wealthy individuals of doing.

>>425932
>Khmer Rouge
>socialist

pls

>>425951
They were the most socialist of them all. Actually were the only ones to abolish money.

>>424445
Sorry child, I have built upon his wealth already. Not to any respect he has, but yes. Each person has a right to inheritance by birth.
You shan't punish me because your father was a lazy sack of shit.

>>425976
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2013/dec/11/pol-pot-khmer-rouge-interview


>Pol Pot said that his resistance movement was fighting to save the Cambodian race, rather than for socialism

he was trying to save a race...hmmmm....


>Pol Pot said he was trying to create a national front at home and abroad, and was in contact with non-Communist nationalist groups like the "Khmer Serei " (free Khmer). He said he had also tried to enlist Prince Norodom Sihanouk.

that sounds very communistic indeed.
I wonder why he was waging warfare against Vietnam. Shouldn't they be allied since both were so socialist?

>>425324
It has no intention to, nor does everyone have any sort of right or is garuenteed to an equal standard of living.
There are the winners, Western civilization and some others, and the losers.
Our current system gives us enormous quality of life to the most successful nations, and not to not.

Take your bleeding heart elsewhere.
And if you wish to, explain your totalitarian and ruinous ideology to me.

>>426011
>the guardian
Anyway, it is by name friend.
Vietnam was only "socialist" for the benifits from China/Rus

>>420666
All that came from the Holy Bible can't be evil. The communism was invented by holy patriarch Joseph, famous jude and vizier. The Bible had story about him inside.

>>426011
What's the problem? Marx and Engels themselves were racists.

>>426017
>Vietnam was only "socialist" for the benifits from China/Rus

who 's engaging in "no true scotsman" now?

>>426021
>famous jude
I hope you're not retarded enough to imply Joseph was a Jew.

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>>426024
>Marx and Engels themselves were racists

>>426036
Are you saying they weren't?

>>425886

If anything history has taught us that socialism (and communism) doesn't work, you have plenty of examples even today of that.

North Korea, Venezuela, several African nations among others.

Hell, you can take Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Finland as well.

Socialism doesn't work, it has been tried plenty of times and it has failed every single time.

>>426056
No, it's that poor people without mechanized industry trying to skip straight to communism via popular revolution does not work, and capitalism is the proper transitional state to communism, not centrally controlled markets

>>426061

Socialism is inherently dangerous, as it removes power from the people and gives it to a state, it then uses its power to steal peoples money and impede even more on their freedoms.

Economically it's a disaster as well, since there's little freedom to operate.

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>>426067
>>it removes power from the people
Money is a power, power is a money...

>>426061
East Germany and Czechoslovakia were industrial capitalist states, still a failure.

Even if Marx's criteria were 100% fullfilled it'd still end up a disaster.

>>426056
care to provide arguments? real arguments?

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>>426056
Now for bushiness not need much humans, because machines more effective.

>>425468
South Korea build their economy using soviet inspired 5 year plans in a central planned economy.

>>426091

Have I not already?

Look at any socialist/communist state.

Let's take Soviet, North Korea, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Venezuela, East Berlin vs West Berlin, Ghana vs the Ivory Coast, Burma vs Thailand.

Want me to keep on going?

The evidence is there, and as history has taught us - socialism/communism is inherently dangerous.

>>426095

Some machines are more effective indeed, imagine if he will rode on horseback, thank god socialism is dying.

>>426028
Nobody, they were still Socialist/communist
But only by profit from Rus/China.

The only reason we didn't fund Ho Chink Mein was because of the French.

>>426109
>>426011
read the article, maybe you 'll lose some of your misconceptions about what constitutes a communist "state", although I doubt it.

also read>>425349

>>425349
>armed uprising of the proletariat of Prague

Shit that never happened for 200

>>426139
>what is the Spring of Prague in 1968?

>>426147
There was no armed uprising you fucking retard. In fact it was very top-down and mostly had to do with Dubcek lifting censorship.

>>426109
Ivory coast is worse though.

>>426166
>the delusion. the delusion!

>>426187
Why do you have to lie?

>>426187
Not him but you might want to step aside from romantic prop, for your own benefit.

>>426191
>>426196

do you even know anything about the uprising in Prague? The city was under the control of its inhabitants until the Red Army marched in with its tanks

>>426244
>this counts as bait nowadays

>>426266
tell me what you know of it then

>>426244
You're thinking of 1956 Hungary. Prague Spring had nothing to do with armed workers.

>>420738
>but none actually finished the process
True!They tried to completely destroy everything but just made some countries stop their progress for half a century.

>>426334
>You're thinking of 1956 Hungary

both were uprisings against the soviet regime.

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>>426056
>Hell, you can take Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Finland as well.


>countries with some of the highest indicators of HDI, iHDI, equality, life satisfaction, GDP per PPP, healthcare, education standards, actual education and so on
>not working

>>425761
>>425806
>>425229
Hey there. I'm sorry about the thing but,

it's been a while since I read the article and it seems all the jewrnals have put it behind blocks and paywalls.
Some of them claim you can sign in for free, so be my guest with the procedure if it really interests you.

The article I was referencing was

The Economic Growth of Tsarist Russia 1860-1913 by Raymond W. Goldsmith
This one here seems more dry and narrower, but have a go if you wish
http://www.eco.nihon-u.ac.jp/center/economic/publication/pdf/05-03suhara.pdf

>>420738
Also in a period of rise of communistic ideas they do not have the computers. Calculate a locked model of economics and logistics (Hello, medieval Japan) is a difficult task even with computers, because purchasers demands can not be calculated.
But technically-communisticaly some outsider states like North Korea can convert electricity to food, just build the vertical farms with light-diode lamps and feed all north people to Kim Jong-un thickness. But of course, because humanity are stupid he not wish do that.

>>426428
>>425761

oh, just found another one, this one seems much less dry and more interesting


https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/155056/nykanen_gradu_2015.pdf?sequence=1
also, fuck my formating

>>424285
>>424292
You guys are both angry fags. lrn2 get along

>>420666
>all these literal communists
Why do i even come here

>>420738
>there really never has been a true communist country

Because a true communist society is unnatainable.
Maybe in a post-scarcity society, but even then, I doubt it.

>>426485
Even in a post-scarcity society people would somehow develop a method on how to make the resources scarce agian.

>>426510
it's a sine qua non

>>426485
>Maybe in a post-scarcity society
we have the means to live in such a society
What needs to change are the means of distribution.

>>426529
>we have the means to live in such a society
holy fucking shit man, can you meme even harder?

>>426529
Are you saying we have resources that aren't scarce?

Ring me when public ownership of the means of production happens. Thanks!

>>426529
>we have the means to live in such a society
no we dont.

>>426510
yeah, thats why I said I doubt it would happen even in such a situation

>>426615
yes we do, it's the system of distribution that needs to change

>>426683
no we don't

>>426705
are you seriously denying that humanity has the means to overcome scarcity right now?

>>426719
yes

>>426730
then you are not well informed

>>426746
no, it's you who is misinformed

>>426759
How can you deny the fact that humanity today has the most wealth accumulated ever in its history?

>>426772
I am not denying that though.

>>426793

>>426719
>>426730

>>426801
most wealth in history!=post scarcity, it doesn't automatically follow

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>>421809
Propaganda newer changes.

>>426817
true, although this time the difference is qualitative, not quantity: the capital accumulated can provide for the needs of the whole humanity if it was distributed in a fairer manner.

>>426826
I'm debating whether to put this in my fap folder.

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>>426826
>ты нe дaшь любимyю нa пoзop гитлepoвcким coлдaтaм

hey, to each his own! :^)

>>426834
>capital
>post scarcity

wew lad

>>426849
I don't see a contradiction

>>426863
then maybe go read a fucking book

>>426884
I 've read lots of them

maybe there's something you don't understand


>fucking
calm down

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>>426884
>can't explain positions
>g-go read a b-book!

>>426892
unfortunately, some people consider this an offshoot of /pol/. However, with enough persistance we can turn this into a place where good discussions are being held.

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>>425471
>Please don't pop my ideological bubble

>the city of @TomLocomotive

>>426944
yeah, your meme images are so sharp

>>426909
>I cant discuss with /pol/, as their arguments are better
>everyone who is not communist is /pol/

>>426834
you're showing a complete ignorance in the concepts you're trying to discuss m8

>>427157
>I cant discuss with /pol/, as their arguments are better

I 've yet to see arguments from /pol/

>>427160
you wish

>>426389
There was no uprising in Czechoslovakia. The Soviets arrived to depose the government.

>>426863
not the other anon, but let me explain you like you're five: capital isnt the same as actual resources and means to produce the objects that the human population needs AND wants.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that even if you were to radically redistribute all of capital in the whole world (as if this would even work, considering the nature of capital and currency) you would have a meagre ammount for every person, possibly enough to barely survive, but hardly enough to have a developed country lifestyle. I'm not sure though, I may be completely wrong I'll give you that.

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>every communist country has to create barriers to prevent people from living
>people still defend communism even though people vote with their feet to get away from it every time it's implemented

>>427175
>capital isnt the same as actual resources and means to produce

it's exactly that.

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Marxism-Leninism and other authoritarian forms of socialism are quite bad, yes. As an anarchist communist, though, I would not consider it a bad thing.

>>427196
>abolish the state and property and class will vanish :DDDD

even more retarded than marxism

>>427180
>>427207

can you understand that this is not /pol/?
Do you even fucking know why there are different boards????????????????

>>427196
The difference between anarchist communism and authoritarian socialism is time.

If the Soviets were repressed by Kerensky in 1917, we would be hearing now how they offered a true chance at worker's democracy before being quashed by bourgeois forces.

>>427207
If you think we think it will magically happen, you know nothing of anarchist thought. Organization is key. Abolishing the state overnight would be awful. It must be an organized an intentional action.

>>427211
Contrary to your belief /his/ is not a safe space for lefties and never will be.

>>427175
>>427185
let me clarify, since I call out the /pol/tards out all the time (although I provide walls of texts often)

Unsold merchandise is defined as capital.
Knowledge and craftsmanship belong in the human capital.
The resources and the factories that transform them are capital.

>>427185
I was using the marxist concept of capital, capital as a means of exchange, but if you're talking about the classical concept, the problem still stands.

Even with extreme redistribution you would not have a post-scarcity society.
The key word here is scarcity.
If there was no scarcity of anything, supply and demand would become outdated. The very concept of capital as money would go away.
Capital in the classical sense of means of production would still exist of course.

>>427234
but the fundamental problem of infinite needs and finite resources is historically inaccurate.

>>427238
how?
its a legitimate question

>>427217
No, contrary to your belief, /his/ is not /pol/ 2.0

>>427246
it's not. The development of needs is not independent of the development of the production means, therefore not independent of history. You cannot view needs isolated from their historic period.
A simple example: if you needed a cellphone 10 years ago, now you need an iphone.
But humanity has lived on the same needs for millenia.

>>427246
>>427258

and return tommorow, it's late where I am, going to sleep.

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>>427258
>he genuinely believes /his/ was created for leftists

>>427258
>The development of needs is not independent of the development of the production means, therefore not independent of history.

How does that refutes anything of what I said?

>>420666
Your pic is related fgt. It's what usually happens when certain interests don't wan't communism running around people's heads.

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>>427315
>want people to think about communism
Anon, they might become mentally retarded

>>424271
the cheks hailed them because communism was so damn bad but immediately regretted their decision because the nazis didnt care about the slavs they wanted them dead so that the germans could move in

>>424339
You are a jerk, plain and simple you are also a simpleton, that's OK though as long as you understand not to interfere with adult conversations, cuckold is not in insult its a fetish nothing more or less incest which you are no doubt a product of however actually is wrong as it hurts the greater Gene pool now that you know that I will ask you kindly not breed you filthy animal

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>>428281
I will eat your children, unwashed peasant filth

>ITT: authoritarian socialism = communism

>>425332
Except that we can objectively state that the USSR was neither a capitalist democracy nor a perfect implementation of communism, but we cannot state that it wasn't an implementation of communism without moving into personal opinions. Nice try though.

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>>425471
>unironically claiming that anyone who thinks North Korea is a shitty state must be from /pol/

>>425359
>USSR did not claim to practise communism (see: constitution)

I'm saving this for the stupidest statements of the week thread.

>>426399
Sweden is plunging in HDI rankings. Something about Stockholm being the rape capitol of Europe.

>>428361
>n-no!
>you see its because we have strict ways of interpreting rape!
>causes a 400% increase

>>427211
>he pointed out how unpopular communism was
>oh god, only a /pol/tard could possibly dislike the single worst system for the allocation of scarce resources ever to grace the face of the earth

Only idiots believe in communism, only idiots believe in facism. Liberal capitalism is, was, and always will reign supreme.

>>425471
Hey, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool /pol/ hater but save that shit for the stormfags.

And have a little self awareness. After all, you're as disgusting as they are.

>>425485
>mongolian children

wat...?

>>427258
>his is not /pol/ 2.0

Holy shit, I may hate /pol/, but you whine just as much as they do. People are still allowed to point out facts that don't support the warped and idiotic historiographical narrative that communists have brainwashed themselves into believing. So in conclusion, fuck /pol/, but fuck you too you whiny jackass.

>>428332
>i-it wasnt capitalist i s-swear
No true scotsman fallacy.

>>428361
yeah I wonder why

Could it be, that some inherent trait of socialism makes people rape more?

Or maybe it's the HOARDS OF FUCKING IMMIGRANTS

>>428391
>People are still allowed to point out facts

>the following are facts

>>427180
>>427172
>>425467
>>425468
>>425319
>>425713
>>426024
>>426056

>>429590
the funny thing about this is that I was the one originally accused of being /pol/, yet I argued against these idiots that you quoted

people here really are paranoid. But honestly, with all the prussoboos, it's kinda understandable...

>>429615
Mootwo created /his/ and the rules are: creative and thoughtful posting. Not venting, but discussion.
I am always willing (and so are others evidently) to expose my thinking and views.
look here: >>426615
>>426683
>>426705
>>426719
>>426730
>>426746
>>426759
>>426772
>>426793
>>426801
>>426817
>>426834

and here the other anon may imply that I am as intelligent as a five year old, but they proceed to provide an argument
>>427175

my responses:>>427185
>>427233
and then the conversation continued
>>427234
>>427238
>>427246
>>427258


let's work to keep this intelligent.
I will not dignify /pol/ type posts with replies.

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>>429637
>creative and thoughtful posting

Anyone who thinks communism is a good system, or is a better alternative to capitalism is either ridiculously delusion or an edgy teenager that knows nothing of economics.

>>429705
>>429708

6/10

>>429728
Its not bait. The fact you label anyone who speaks the truth about communism a troll shows just how fragile your belief in the failed system is.

The reality is, communism never has and never will work. Not only because it creates huge power imbalances which leads to genocidal dictators, it fails the meet the basic economic principle of supply and demand. Communism always ends up with either mass shortages or over production of goods. Not to mention communism creates a huge decrease in productive capacity due to shortages in materials but also the shitty living conditions the population is subject to.

Actually as a gommie this thread is much better than anything /pol/
Even the ebin mene shitflinging is of less shite quality

I would also point out that for all the people bringing up Prague etc that 16% of the population continue to vote for the Communist Party unrepentantly. Of course it's not the Exact party tjat existed but to claim it was a party without popularity or any popular mandate is simply false, especially as this is the post 1968 party which condemns Dubcek to this day

>>429735
>you label anyone who speaks the truth

the truth according to you

>Communism always ends up with either mass shortages or over production of goods

are you sure that doesn't happen with capitalism?

I will repeat it, since you don't want to understand it: you are only talking about the 2nd world regimes, not communism.

>>429746
what, in your opinion, is an occurence of social and economic order that most closely resembled communism

>>429756
*historically

>>429746
No it is the truth, there have been ZERO successful communist governments.

>are you sure that doesn't happen with capitalism?

Of course market failure happens under capitalism, but not nearly as frequently, and no where near to the same extent it does in communism.

>I will repeat it, since you don't want to understand it: you are only talking about the 2nd world regimes, not communism.

I'm a new poster to the thread, you never mentioned anything about 2nd world regimes to me. Regardless, I will repeat again, there have been ZERO successful communist governments. Btw your logical fallacy 'my version of communism hasn't been tried yet' is not a rebuttal to my points.

>>429756

Those that aren't widely discussed or taught in schools: the Paris Commune of 1871, Revolution era Barcelona, Mahnovtsina, the original, pre-bolshevik workers' democracy of the soviets the lead to a series of worker's uprisings in Russia.
Those are just historic examples that prove that humanity is ready to progress to the next and final stage of its history. As anything with history, the transition is not linear, like this anon's thinking>>429774

>>429797
You can't debate any of my points.

Communism has never worked, will not work now, will not work in the future. There will be no transition to a communist utopia as you are suggesting.

>>429808
more like, you are not open to discuss any of them and want to blindly claim that you are right.

>>429797
>paris commune
>Maхнo

wew lad, really now

even Marx renounced Paris
And I'm sure those russaki and jews were really glad about the killings in Ukraine

>>429821
I am open to debating, that's why I put forward my reasons for why communism has never worked in this post >>429735

The only thing I am claiming as fact is that communism has never ever worked. That is an undisputed fact whether you like it or not.

>>429823
>even Marx renounced Paris

can you tell me where?

>>425462
>the whole nation of Venezuela disagrees with you.
The whole nation of Venezuela was literally being held hostage by the capitalists the PSUV allow to function freely, which of course isn't good enough. Since they had no option but to vote for the liberal fascists all of a sudden food (with expired dates, hmmm) and supplies magically find their way to the shelves. Chavez' and Maduro's only mistake was not killing these people and seizing their assets for the state.

>>429739
In Slovakia communists can't even break the 5% threshold.

>>429833

well, for example

>“Perhaps you will refer me to the Paris Commune, but apart from the fact that this was merely the rising of a city under exceptional conditions, the majority of the Commune was in no wise socialist, nor could it be. With a modicum of commonsense, however, it could have reached a compromise with Versailles useful to the whole mass of the people — the only thing that could be reached at the time.”

Letter to F. Domela-Nieuwenhuis, 22 February 1881

And then a bunch of other stuff in his writings about the commune

>>429849
that's interesting. Why is it hailed the world over then as a historic moment?

>>429865
well, the general perception of the public is different than what Marx thought about it.
Also, it's a historic moment, but so is the November revolution and we all know how that went...

Anyway, Marx at first said he saw the ideologue core of the movement as actually socialist (the intellectuals) and the workers as merely manpower to enforce the new movement.

Later on, he even went back on that and said that while the movement itself wasn't socialist, it provided a framework upon which futher steps could be made towards more socialist movements.

File: Iknewallalong.jpg (20KB, 791x465px)

20KB, 791x465px

>>429887
>he even went back on that and said that while the movement itself wasn't socialist, it provided a framework upon which futher steps could be made towards more socialist movements.


but seriously, I don't think it is revered for false reasons, exactly because of what you said.