Why did Japan attack the US in Pearl Harbor? What was the point?

>>411359
America's embargo on oil, they either wanted revenge or to bully America into lifting the embargo. It was probably the stupidest move any nation did during WWII desu.

>>411359
>muh oil

They needed oil. Modern militaries need oil. America was by in large the leading supplier of oil. When America stopped selling oil to Japan they were fucked. Only two places in the area had oil, Indonesia (Dutch owned which will protected by America and Britain) and Siberia which will lead to the Soviets kicking their shit in and invading China directly. So they need to fight America to get their oil back to continue invading China and the rest of Asia. So they made the best of it and launched a sneak attack.

>>411359
Also, they hoped the Americans wouldn't go total war, but would be afraid to commit to massive retaliation. They might have known that they would lose an all-out Pacific war in the end, but were hoping that the US would be afraid of the potential losses of such a war, even if they were victorious.

>>411392

That's not technically right. They wanted to invade the NEI (modern day Indonesia) to secure an oil source, which FDR had publicly vowed to defend with armed force. They thought though, that the U.S. commitment to defending a colony would be limited, and if they could damage the Pacific fleet, they'd put them on the back foot for what would be at most a year of fighting.

>>411409

Contemporary Siberia didn't have any oil wells east of Sverdlovsk. Going to Siberia for oil is waaaaaay out of their reach.

economic embargo
obvious favoritism towards the allies
attempt to scare them out of the war by crippling their navel capabilities

How would the war have turned out, if the US's carriers had been at Pearl Harbour and had gotten destroyed?

>>415791
Japan would have still lost but it could have taken another year or so

>>415791

The U.S. has 5 carriers remaining, although 2 of them aren't quite in the same tier and would probably stay in the Atlantic.

They would be pushed back further, and there would probably be no Midway. However, in the autumn and winter of 1942, the Essex class carriers come out, and start roflstomping the Japanese.

Prognosis, War takes another 6-12 months. Little significant change.

>>415791
war gets extended by a couple of weeks/months because the japanese cannot match the sheer military might and industrial potency of the united states as shipyards churn out carrier after carrier, factories build plane after plane, and the armed forces take/bypass island after island

>>415822
>>415831
You underestimate the impact having no battles at Coral Sea and Midway. With the loss of 2 USN CVs, Japan is taking Port Moresby and the entire South Pacific up to New Caledonia. In the CentPac Japan probably takes all of the Gilberts as well. The result is a much more defensible empire.

>>415887
the result is still an empire that has only a fraction of the economy the united states have - look up the numbers of ships built, it boggles the mind how outmatched japan was

>>415888
Yes but you forget that Japan still built plenty of planes. Without a decent foothold in the SoPac the USN has to carry the brunt of the air power; only 4 engine bombers from Fiji can reach New Caledonia. No possibility for a Cactus Air Force of single engined planes off dirt runways making an impact. Japan doesn't have to match the USN in carriers; only in available aircraft.

>>415900

Japanese air defense on each island will still be limited by the amount of planes you can base there, i.e. island size.

Get 5 Essexes together and you can overwhelm each individual island, and travel while you do it.

>>411359
Japanese aimed for quick, decisive strike against the Pacific Fleet, to either disable it or force it to retreat back to west coast bases for repairs.
This in turn would have allowed Japanese time to establish a defensive zone around their zone of influence to repel RN or USN in their inevitable counteroffensives to the point where fighting them would have been too costly for Americans, which would have brought them in to the negotiation table. That was the theory.

As other anons have pointed out, Japan was running out of oil fast. IJN was predicted to have ran out of oil completely by 1943.
Securing a stable source of oil was critical.

>>415911
>Japanese air defense limited by the number of planes they can put on an island
Except with the range of their planes they can draw strength from many surrounding islands. Not to mention this sort of fighting is asymmetric; having an air raid break through CAP guarding a carrier fleet could mean the loss of one or more of those bad boys which took years to build. On the other hand, even if the US plasters the airfield it's just a matter of repairing the facilities which can take a matter of days requiring comparitively little resources. The US got VERY lucky it smashed the Japanese CVs before they took the offensive themselves. Even so there was nearly a 18 month gap between Midway and Tarawa which was the first CentPac invasion. Losing 2 CVs on Dec 7 and no Midway means there is around a 5 CV difference between this timeline and reality, possibly more if the USN managed to pick some stupid fights against a more numerous foe and got smashed.

>>416028

>Except with the range of their planes they can draw strength from many surrounding islands.

Which will then be low on fuel and possibly light on armament because they're traveling dozens if not hundreds of kilometers just to get to the fight, and will have to reserve just as much fuel to get back home. The impact of any island not in the immediate vicinity will be minimal.

> Not to mention this sort of fighting is asymmetric; having an air raid break through CAP guarding a carrier fleet could mean the loss of one or more of those bad boys which took years to build. On the other hand, even if the US plasters the airfield it's just a matter of repairing the facilities which can take a matter of days requiring comparitively little resources.

Unless of course, the U.S. isn't completely retarded like you're assuming and is doing this alongside a land invasion, which will make such repairs difficult at least; impossible at worst if the marines seize whichever island.

> Even so there was nearly a 18 month gap between Midway and Tarawa which was the first CentPac invasion.

Because of lack of landing craft you mong, not because of lack of airpower.

>Losing 2 CVs on Dec 7 and no Midway means there is around a 5 CV difference between this timeline and reality, possibly more if the USN managed to pick some stupid fights against a more numerous foe and got smashed.

And again, it will be made irrelevant when you have Essex carriers with F6Fs flitting about, which the Japanese simply don't have an answer for.

This is now a zero vs p-51 thread

>>415900
There is literally no way the Japanese can beat the US in WWII. They are outclassed in every way possible honestly.

>>416063
>too low on fuel to be effective
You really have no idea what you're talking about. The Japanese operated their planes at long distances very effectively. Just look at how Force Z was sunk. And the Japanese could match the F6F with the N1K George and and J2M Jack. They obviously didn't produce enough of them but it's not like the F6F was so untouchable.
>>416142
No one is claiming Japan would win. Just how much longer it would have taken.

>>416164

>Force Z
>A battleship, a battlecruiser, and 4 destroyers.
>Possessing airpower
Are you stupid, or just extremely ignorant? Do you know how much more fuel it takes to do a dogfight than to do a dive and strike?


>And the Japanese could match the F6F with the N1K George and and J2M Jack. They obviously didn't produce enough of them but it's not like the F6F was so untouchable.

Yeah, it's totally not like they're going to get massively outproduced anyway.

>>416182
All those Japanese fighters need to do is escort bombers into the fray. They're just distractions. They don't need to defend the air space; just break through CAP.

>>416202

What do you think breaking through CAP involves? And why do you think this will be settled in a day? Tarawa, to pull your earlier example, was a 3 day long affair. Saipan took a bit over 3 weeks.

The American carrier planes only have to make a short stop to re-fuel, re-arm, and get back in the fray. Japanese craft from other islands are going to have to make a much longer trip.

That means each American plane (already likely technically superior) can make more sorties for any given amount of time, which gives them a huge edge.

>>416210
I won't argue against any of those assessments. But if the USN doesn't have a large edge in CV strength to compensate for Japanese land based planes then it's going to be a much different affair. Remember in this reality the Japanese likely have 8 or so fleet carriers throughout 1943.

>>416232
And, throughout 1943 alone, in the real timeline, the US built 65 carriers (of all types including CVE admittedly). Over the course of the entire war, they built 141. The Japanese constructed 17. Seventeen.

>you aware now aware that Mitsubishi made a good number of the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor

If you own a Mitsubishi, fuck you.

>>416232
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

>>415791
Britain does some reverse lend-lease until the 1943 CVL/CVE and 1944 CV launchings.

>>416957
There's another board specifically for that kind of shit, and I'd prefer you take it there.

>>415791
longer i assume?
i mean what were the japanese aim for?

they will never reach mainland america
take hawaii?
alright, the americans will come back anyway

>>419880

Fuck off. I can't share history and be outraged at the same time?

>>414054
/thread

>>411409
Why not gang up with nazis in attacking the russians? Why go after the neutral country?

>>420259
>Why not ... attack the russians?
they tried
they failed
(in a big way)

>>420054
>Colt made many weapons that killed Japanese during WWII
If you own an m16, fuck you

>>420054
>I can't share history and be outraged at the same time?

No, friend, you can't. It is whig history.

>WIE ES EIGENTLICH GEWESEN

>>420277
>we can't beat china or britbongs in burma or anzac or yanks in pacific
>let's declare war on the soviets, we will win for sure

>>420289
Man I wish I could own an M16 I'm stuck with an AR.

The Texas Tea, as said.

The general idea was to crush the US Pacific Fleet in one blow, and then dig in on their pacific holdings to inflict such terrible casualties on the US once they finally managed to rebuild a fleet and counter-attack that the US would sue for peace. They still went with that last part, even if fortune denied them the first. Having some carriers at sea when Pearl Harbor happened, and then of course Midway, really screwed up the Japanese timetable. They didn't have time to seize all they needed, nor to dig in as extensively as would have been required.

As Hail Mary's go, it was pretty impressive. Especially considering where Japan had been a generation before. They came from a continent of people who had been kicked around by Europeans and their ilk for centuries. Imagine one of them coming out of nowhere and blasting your modern navy to smithereens.

You gotta hand it to them Nips, they weren't going to take colonialism lying down.

>>411409
Isn't there oil in China?

>>424194


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_China#/media/File:China_Oil_Production.png

It was first discovered in the late 50s, and not exploited until a bit later. Japan wouldn't have had any way of knowing about it, much less getting it.

>>415791

They could have taken Hawaii. This would place them in a situatuon where they could launch naval air attacks over the US west coast, destroying harbors, shipyards and port facilities and ofc any US naval forces and the capability of any non-West Coast based fleet to effectively operate there. This would be further enhanced by destroying or occupying the Panama canal, which would have been at hand once Hawaii falls.

In short, not sure if they could have still won the war (because China and, eventually, the Soviet Union) but it would have possibilitated them to take Hawaii and thus knocking the US out of the Pacific theatre.

>>424247
>They could have taken Hawaii.
How?

All of their transport capabilities were already deployed elsewhere, and there were about fifty thousand US troops on the islands. And, unlike the other places where they had used their transports, Hawaii would not have solved any of their supply and resource issues - in fact if anything it would have worsened them.

>Panama
>West Coast
The Canal is over 5000 miles from Hawaii, and even the west coast is 2500 miles away.

They wanted to prevent Ben Al-Flecki from starring in BVS

>>424247
No, they couldn't have. They didn't have the troops, they didn't have the transports, they didn't have the staying power, they didn't have the air cover. Not to mention their landing tactics were abysmal, see how their first attempt to land on Wake turned out.

>>421372
Nah, they took it standing as the nuclear weapons that ended the war vaporized them.

Directly going to war with the US has been a REALLY stupid idea since the WWI era. Even when you win (like Vietnam) the bodycount is horrendous.

>>424279

Singapore had over 100k fortified defenders and fell easily in the hands of a vastly inferior jap force.

They didn't have to transports to invade Hawaii at the same time or shortly after Pearl Harbour, but once they were done with Indonesia and Malaysia, which was pretty soon, they could have sent an invasion force to Hawaii, which would be up for grabs without a US carrier force operating in the Pacific.

If the US navy didn't have any other carriers in the Pacific for, at least, months after Pearl Harbour than the ones already present back then, if we go with the assumption that these get destroyed in Pearl Harbour, we go as well with the assumption that US wouldn't have a carrier force in the Pacific for at least those 6 months, plenty of time for the japs to mount an invasion of Hawaii and effectively dominate the entire Pacific striking at will from Panama to Seattle.

>>424368
They didn't get done with operations in Indonesia until March, by then it was far too late.

>>420498
>lets declare war on america, we will win for sure!

'the US did al they could to start a war with Japan.
The goal was China and Japan was there first and was organising a pan-Asia zone which would defend against more Western invasion (continuing on from the British Empire).
With the oil embargo (the first ever organised in history) Japan either had to surrender and retreat to their own islands and await the invasion of China by the US or had to do SOMETHING!
THey tried peaceful negotiation repeatedly.
When that failed the War party gained power - their strategy was a strike against the US which would force a negotiation.
This logic obviously failed, as the US Govt. was totally committed to war (despite the massive peace movement).
But the point here is that by any standard when the whole facts are on the table, the US started the war.
Just like in Vietnam.
Just like the Spanish American War.
Just like the destruction of Libya.
Do we go on?

>>424817
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!