What exactly is wrong with the system? Speaking for western

File: eae5e8f9e5fb41239f8e0b3921fd22c8.jpg (5KB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 200x200px

Growing wealth disparity. It needs to be reined in for the good of humanity.

>>3294392
What's wrong with Rich people being rich and poor people being poor?

Government interference, socialist policices.

>>3294392

0/10 bait you didn't even try

The super rich consider minor tax hikes and stronger safety nets to be literal communism, I hope one day they are staring down the business end of a rifle getting accommodated with actual Communism.

File: IMG_0081.jpg (924KB, 4999x3488px) Image search: [Google]

924KB, 4999x3488px

>>3294374
>western capitalism
I think you mean global capitalism
Pic related and many more serious issues that aren't existential threats

Our culture wasn't ready for this much prosperity.

>>3294532

Progressive taxes are cancerous, communism is cancerous.

>safety nets

There's no such thing.

>>3294536

0/10 bait

>>3294495
Poor people tend to get pissed and kill the rich people. It's one of the many reasons a large middle class is important.

>>3294374
It is fundamentally unsustainable and predisposed to wealth inequality and the establishment of poverty in either absolute or relative terms.

>>3294504
>>3294551
>i dont have an argument so i guess its bait

>>3294570
>capitalism is unsustainable

False, an outright lie.

>wealth inequality

Historically that's the rule, not the exception. It's nothing new that came with "western capitalism".

Government increases poverty and does nothing to reduce it, capitalism gets people out of poverty.

>>3294579
>i'll just post some nonsense bait

>>3294570
>wealth inequality is bad
Capitalist countries have poor fat people. Do you have a better alternative system?

>>3294536
>>3294374

how the fuck are you going to change the system?

>>3294630

By an armed marxist revolution of course!

File: Anprim_stages.jpg (97KB, 634x701px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 634x701px

>>3294536
Guys, the solution is clear. we need to take the anprim pill and return to the nature ways.

File: Marxism.jpg (21KB, 233x326px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 233x326px

>>3294501
>Government interference, socialist policices.

>>3294630
When this system collapses in the end, but the question is if it will be too late to save anything when this happen.

>>3294374
Is cuff fixing the male version of thott legs?

>>3294654
>PreWar New Vegas and Post-War New Vegas

I like a welfare state, I also like businesses being able to make money.

I think the problem is that while government regulation is necessary, theres nothing straightforward to it, too many intertangling laws.

Corporations having status as people has also allowed them to intermingle with government to the point that the government protects corporate interests instead of the people employed by the corporations.

Meanwhile on the social side people are just statifying themselves into new groups or newer forms of old collectivism so that underclasses everywhere are starting to get desperate, and hate each other.

>>3294659
>redistribution could be achieved without forcing everyone
>forcing everyone could be achieved without some kind of coordination
>coordination can be achieved without direction and planning
>direction and planning can be achieved without a government
How many fallacies can be fitted inside marxist theory?

>>3294551
>Progressive taxes are cancerous, communism is cancerous
Not an argument.
>safety nets don't exist
lol

>>3294732
State capitalism is a necesary stage to socialism.

File: Adam_smith2.jpg (42KB, 557x433px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 557x433px

>>3294551
>taxes are theft, say the capitalist

>>3294589
Sure let's go back to the days when government kept out of business and workers had the choice between getting shot for unionizing, dying in an unregulated workplace, and/or starving.

File: 1490448386668.png (602KB, 793x794px) Image search: [Google]

602KB, 793x794px

>>3294713
>government regulation is necessary

>>3294602
Being fat is just as awful as starving if you suffer from diabetes, kidney failure heart disease or any accompanying diseases or sumptoms that come with that. Not to mention the social stigma

File: dear-my-ancap-brothers-the-dream-is-real-in-somalia-no-government-no-regulations-no-cops-no-taxes-ultimate-freedom.jpg (131KB, 735x436px) Image search: [Google]

131KB, 735x436px

>>3294769
>t. the ancrap

>>3294745
>not an argument

Literally an argument.

Taxation is theft, progressive taxation even more so.

>>3294755

kys

>>3294805
Profit is theft

>>3294805
Fuck off lame troll, at least post some arguments

>>3294802
plus niggers...

>>3294713
>I like the welfare state

Why would you like something so inferior to the market?

Government regulation is not necessary.

>>3294811

Move to Venezuela if you don't like profit.

>>3294813
>le troll

Great argument.

>>3294815
>they're the only ones who actually fell for the ancrap meme
REALLY makes me THINK

>>3294759
The workers always had a choice to stop working at a factory with such bad conditions, but of course because the government interfered in the free market with regulations and taxes it meant fewer companies and therefore less competition, allowing rich industrialists to create monopolies and securing favours with the politicians. Also, just like today in third world countries, people chose to work in factories even with bad conditions because the alternative was much worse. And to add to that just take a look at the statistics. Capitalism managed to get millions of people out of poverty in just a century and it still does.

File: 1494940698224.jpg (10KB, 285x298px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 285x298px

>>3294802
>warlords using force to coerce people
>somehow ancap

>>3294759

Completely and utterly btfo by >>3294827

>>3294827
It may have managed to birth millions of people out of poverty and provenly into it, millions more.

>>3294847
>provenly into it, millions more.
You're pulling that out of your ass.

>>3294847
>people having sex is the fault of capitalism

>>3294732
>>redistribution could be achieved without forcing everyone
It could. All that needs to be done is to eliminate the force that maintains the current system.

>>forcing everyone could be achieved without some kind of coordination
Any type of large-scale coercion would require a considerable degree of coordination.

>>coordination can be achieved without direction and planning
Nonsense, they're basically one and the same.

>>direction and planning can be achieved without a government
Any entity capable of doing so can reasonably be called a government.

>>3294805
>Taxation is theft, progressive taxation even more so.
Not any more then rent is. You consent to paying taxes by choosing to live in a country. Thinking you have a "right" to live in a country without paying taxes is like saying you have a right to walk into a store and take stuff without paying.

>>3294823
Markets by themselves do not consistently fulfill the needs of the entire populace.

>>3294827
The workers didn't have a meaningful choice, because the choice was either work at another factory with similar conditions, or starve. And besides, it's absurd to claim that regulations and taxes are worse than poor working conditions - if poor working conditions are "okay" because the employees can always go and work somewhere else with better conditions, the same is true of the factory owners themselves. If they don't like regulations, why don't they move to a country that lacks regulations? It's their choice.

>>3294832
Warlords go against ancap ideology, however an ancap society would have no ability to prevent warlords from taking power unless that society was willing to go against ancap ideology. In other words, ancap ideology is flawed because it is unable to defend itself without violating its basic principles.

>>3294374

the people in charge all know each other or cooperate in organised groups

the rest of us dont

hence we all get fucked, while they profit

can the retarded ancaps pls leave?

there are good arguments to defend capitalism as a system (and against certain regulation, tax etc) but your idiocy helps to turn people away from it

>>3295003
>you consent

No I don't, I'm forced.

Except the store isn't forcing me to give them 50% of my income.

>markets doesn't fulfill the needs of the entire populace

And neither does the government, in fact the market provides much better than the government in every aspect.

>>3295038
>stupid people don't like capitalism
>stop arguing why capitalism is the best system of all time people will turn away from it

Let retards be retards, there's no helping them.

>>3295003
>the workers didn't have a choice

Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there. Regulations and taxes cause more harm than low skilled jobs.

Indeed it is true for business owners, hence why regulations and taxation are so bad.

>>3295050

the version the ancaps sell is just as retarded as anticapitalists

>>3294374
Its the best we have. That there are imperfections that occasionally hurt people is not an argument against it because there is no better alternative.

Social democracy is not an alternative, its a variant, possible in countries flush with cash and possessing trade offs of its own

>>3295003
>the choice was either work at another factory with similar conditions, or starve.
They weren't going to starve and I already explained why the conditions weren't that good compared to the factories today. Again take a look at how life was for the average person before the Industrial Revolution and how it was after it. Capitalism made the lives of millions better, do you have an alternative system that can achieve better results?
>If they don't like regulations, why don't they move to a country that lacks regulations?
And that's exactly what's happening today. There's an excessive amount of regulations and taxes making big companies move to other more business friendly countries, thus increasing unemployment.

There's no need to regulate factories for better working conditions, it's going to happen naturally in the free market.

>>3294827
>but of course because the government interfered in the free market with regulations and taxes it meant fewer companies and therefore less competition
Monopolies existed precisely because of the lack of regulations preventing such monopolies.

>Capitalism managed to get millions of people out of poverty in just a century and it still does.
Yeah, after governments worldwide enacted regulations and taxes.

File: Neokulaks.png (300KB, 1080x742px) Image search: [Google]

300KB, 1080x742px

>>3294825
>Memezuela

>>3294832
>it's not an army,they are just heavily armed guards

File: wagecuck.jpg (58KB, 541x412px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 541x412px

>falling for the usury meme

Top kek, there's a reason every religion banned that shit

Where does this meme come from that capitalism created modern civilization when it was clearly oil and coal

File: burger1.jpg (224KB, 800x384px) Image search: [Google]

224KB, 800x384px

>>3294392
>not fair!!! Gib me free stuff!
There's welfare for that. You don't need to earn the same as business leaders, i.e., people who actually do useful things.
The state of Burgers everyone...

File: backtopol.jpg (136KB, 546x700px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 546x700px

>>3295132
We're living in the 21st century. Whole new sets of rules, bub. Banks are good for stimulating the economy.
Don't be a butthurt reactionary drumpfling who wants to get rid of 'muh evil banks' even though your god emperor loves 'em.

>>3295047
>No I don't, I'm forced.
Only if your country actually forbids emigration. You can leave any time.

>Except the store isn't forcing me to give them 50% of my income.
Neither is the government. You're consenting to paying that much by choosing to make use of that government's services. If you think their prices are unreasonable, you're free to look for a different government.

>And neither does the government
I wasn't advocating for total government control and abolition of markets. Just that the government should step in when markets are failing to meet the population's needs.

>>3295057
>Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there.
Right but there is no choice other than poor working conditions or starvation. Saying poor working conditions are okay because "you can always work somewhere else" doesn't work when ALL places have poor working conditions.

>Indeed it is true for business owners, hence why regulations and taxation are so bad.
No, if you can expect workers to deal with poor working conditions you can expect businesses owners to deal with taxes and regulations.

>>3295083
>They weren't going to starve
They would if they chose not to work. Otherwise, why would they agree to such poor working conditions?

>And that's exactly what's happening today. There's an excessive amount of regulations and taxes making big companies move to other more business friendly countries, thus increasing unemployment.
And that's how markets are supposed to work. If anyone manages to stay at the top for too long, they should be scrutinized, because that's a sign that there is a lack of meaningful competition.

>>3295235
Cringe

>>3295117
When you impose high taxes and regulations you make it difficult for the little guy to start a new business or manage to compete with big companies, thus creating a monopoly for them. But without them, there's nothing stopping a bunch of guys to open up a new company if they feel that the other ones are exploiting the workers. Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.

Everything was getting better long before governments started enacting regulations.

>>3294551
>>3294589
lmao are facts too hard for you? You call something bait because you dont understand it and make arguments like
>False, an outright lie.
that is literally impossible to translate into logic, as no rational or factual basis
dont respond, i dont want to talk to you. Mocking you is all i want to do.
>>3294654
no we need technology to get out of the mess we made with it. we need anarchism of course, we also need deep ecology and radical luddism. Ted and I think alot alike

>>3294630
Economic control of the means of production, which will only become easier for new economic systems as global society collapses, your basic anarchism focused on ecology.

>>3295258
>When you impose high taxes and regulations you make it difficult for the little guy to start a new business or manage to compete with big companies
That's less true when the taxes are imposed in proportion to the size or income of a company.

>Everything was getting better long before governments started enacting regulations.
You mean during the gilded age and second industrial revolution? When railroad executives were knowingly allowing their employees to get killed and mangled on the job because it was cheaper than buying brakes that actually worked? Yeah, if the free market is so great for the workers, why did any feel the need to work for companies that were literally killing them? Where were the entrepreneurs with the idea of starting a railroad that DIDN'T treat its employees as an expendable commodities? It really gives one a lot to think about, you know?

>>3294805
i agree
Property is theft!

>>3295258
Wow it's like taxes are progressive or something? With tax and labor law exemptions for small businesses.America has more small business starting up today than ever.

>But without them, there's nothing stopping a bunch of guys to open up a new company if they feel that the other ones are exploiting the workers. Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.
Without laws and regulations there's nothing stopping big corps from hiring armed forces to violently dismantle small businesses and attack striking workers.

>>3295258
>Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike

>>3295282
>That's less true when the taxes are imposed in proportion to the size or income of a company.
It's still a problem though, it creates a huge bureaucracy that will easily get corrupted. It's better to just have a low flat tax this way you avoid loopholes.
>why did any feel the need to work for companies that were literally killing them?
And yet they still worked, didn't they? Because all the other jobs available were much worse. You seem to think that the 19th century working conditions could have improved to the ones we have today in just a few weeks if the government regulated the free market. Take the example of modern sweatshops in Asia. They are horrible but if the other alternative is to work the whole day in the fields for just a bowl of rice or to resort to prostitution, then most people will of course choose to work in a sweatshop. But liberals, to show everyone how good and empathetic they are, they'll try to force the companies to close down their sweatshops. And when they close, that's a disaster for the people in these Asian countries as they'll become unemployed or get a job that's much more worse than the sweatshops.

>>3295236

Yes, the government is forcing you to pay taxes, therefore it is theft. Taxation is not voluntary.

>governments should step in

Every time the government 'steps in' everything goes south. 1930 is an example of that, the crisis of 08 is another example of that, not to mention the current ongoing terrible state of the world economy due to governments stepping in. Government should leave markets the fuck alone, all they do is fuck things up.

>>3295272

Zero facts have been posted.

You claim that capitalism is unsustainable, yet you provide zero proof. Why? Because there's no proof of capitalism being unsustainable, it has been going strong since day one.

>>3295250
>if one company does something really well the government must step in because that's not okay

literally fucking kill yourself so that you don't spread your retarded genes

>>3294374
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/big-brands-mcdonalds-ikea-lloyds-tiffany-unilever-dove-shun-straight-white-britain-in-their-adverts-trevor-phillips-lrrfdgtpg

File: UFPQ0078.png (118KB, 719x396px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 719x396px

>>3295430
there are mountains of facts
ill give you a taste
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.sci-hub.cc/doi/10.1111/1468-2427.00251/full

https://favaretoufabc.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/2015-steffen-et-al-the-great-acceleration-1.pdf as referenced here>>3294536


https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss1/art24/

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/ecology/readings.htm

not only do you not have facts you have no argument either. If the conclusion that capitalism is inherently unsustainable doesn't come to you through reason you are either a mouth breathing retard or you know nothing. Im assuming the latter.
it will come to you as the world continues to melt down, which is too late if you ask me.

>>3294805
>taxation is theft
No more than property is theft. In mainstream economics, taxation is seen as rent rather than theft.

>>3294825
>le move to le shitty country because le strawman applies there XDD!!!
Venezuelan businesses are profit-based.

>>3295530

Yet here capitalism stands, some hundreds of years later and still going strong.

Socialism needs a decade to ruin everything.

>>3295553

Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.

>>3295558

I guess move to North Korea then.

>>3294827
>when your shitty system ruins lives but there's a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's...

>>3295562

Stop posting.

>>3295057
>Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there. Regulations and taxes cause more harm than low skilled jobs.
Oh yeah I guess that totally means the Triangle Shirtwaist fire was 100% okay because at least they were employed. Blanck and Harris did nothing wrong XDD!!!

>>3295083
>There's no need to regulate factories for better working conditions, it's going to happen naturally in the free market.
People were still working in miserable conditions in 1910, nearly a century after industrialization began in the USA. They weren't as badly treated as those in certain years in the 1870s for example, but the free market certainly wasn't taking care of everybody like it should have been.

>>3295430
also fyi i only linked things that i thought you would be able to understand.
all the really condemning stuff is analytical and would need to be spoonfed to you unlike this bumptious childs play ive told you to read

>>3295295
>>3295300
But that wasn't real capitalism!!!! The government still existed so it didn't count!!!

>>3295387
>But liberals, to show everyone how good and empathetic they are, they'll try to force the companies to close down their sweatshops
Are you literally retarded?

>>3295559
>Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.
>regardless of my feelings
It's not my feelings. It's the opinion of virtually all economists other than the batshit insane Mises worshipers.
>I guess move to North Korea then.
Ironically enough, North Korea is one of the only countries to abolish direct taxation where there used to be taxation. The other was communist Albania.

>>3295559
you did not address my argument, when presented with facts, you buried your head in the sand and let your asshole do the talking.
>Yet here capitalism stands, some hundreds of years later and still going strong.
at great expense to life on earth
>"look out,STOP! your about to drive off a cliff"
>"nonsense! wemade it this far"
>muh socialism runs everything.
yet again you make a proposition with no factual argument to accompany it. I encourage you not to try. all you would do is point to authoritarian communist states and the bad things that happened in them with no reference to modality or the geo-political-economic context and declare these happenings as proof that all socialism is bad.
i wouldn't be shocked if you couldnt even define what capitalism and socialism mean. Go ahead and give that your best shot, you can even use google if you need to.

>>3294374
Rent-seeking, absentee landlordism, intellectual property and all other concepts that hold illegimate power over the belongings of other people. Monopoly on currency. Consumerist culture and the obsession with accumulating wealth by all means. Bullshit jobs and work culture requiring 8 hour work days even if a lot of that time is just pretending to be working.

File: 1479763346628.gif (1MB, 800x667px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 800x667px

>>3295572
>non arguments

Stop posting.

>>3295585

So without me having to go through 4 papers on a saturday, tell me why capitalism is unsustainable and why, if it is, is it still here? One ought to think that we'd have gotten rid of capitalism by now if it was unsustainable.

>>3295597

What's the point of taxation when an authoritarian government controls everything anyways?

>>3295625
>at great expense to life on earth

The only economic system to have broughts billions of people out of poverty, making life as we know it easy as piss to live compared to before capitalism. Socialism was at great expense to life.

Yes, you're right, I could point towards the countless of failed states and the over a hundred million dead humans to prove that marxism, communism and socialism doesn't work and are inherently dangerous for mankind, but I don't even need to do that. One only has to look at any country that has adopted socialist policies to see the harm they've done and continue to do today.

>inb4 le real socialism hasn't been tried yet

>>3295387
>And yet they still worked, didn't they?
Because it was better than literally starving, which was the only other option. But by that logic, arbitrarily high taxation should be regarded as fully ethical, because people would rather lose 95% of their income than go to jail.

>>3295426
>Yes, the government is forcing you to pay taxes, therefore it is theft. Taxation is not voluntary.
The government uses force to protect property rights as well, does that mean property is theft? Besides, you agree to pay taxes by living on land that is part of a country. No different than rent, really. Rent isn't theft, it's a transaction, a mutual agreement. You agree to pay rent, and the land owner agrees to let you stay there. Same deal with taxes. You either pay taxes and enjoy the benefit of living in that country, or leave the country. It's your choice. But saying you are entitled to live in a country without complying to that country's tax policy is the equivalent of walking into a store and saying you are entitled to take stuff without paying for it.

>>3295437
Not an argument.

enlightnement individualist ideals + capitalism = destruction of collectivism = downfall of society

>>3295559
>Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.
All right, if you want to play that game, property is theft regardless of your feelings.

>>3295712
>collectivism
>good

>>3294654
What's that 94 picture from?

>>3295704
>a government defending its citizens is the same as theft

u wot

Again, taxation is not voluntary. It is theft. The government forces you to give them your wealth or you'll be sent to jail. Rent is a mutual agreement that both parties agree to and can cancel at any time. If I no longer want to pay rent, I don't have to. Taxation on the other hand is forced and there are no other options.

>>3295704
>not an argument

Not even worth coming up with an argument to such a retarded statement. It's like you're a five year old.

>>3295712
>capitalism
>downfall of society

False. Stop spewing fake news.

File: CUWH4581.jpg (175KB, 1280x924px) Image search: [Google]

175KB, 1280x924px

>>3295691
>tell me why capitalism is unsustainable
because it treats the living world we depend on to live as an externality. It is an ecologically maladaptive economic system, just see the graph you replied to.
Capitalism could defintley last for ever if we had infinite natural resources and space to capitalize. But we dont.
, and the order that holds the planet together is breaking down. You dont under stand this, and to get you to understand i would have to teach basic ecology, move through empirical studies and theory to properly explain it, and keep doing that all the way through dynamic systems, complexity and network science. Before this post i had some hope of explaining something to you with reason, but now that i see that you didnt even get we where talking about ecological sustainability, not so much. I just cant fix stupid sorry kid.

>>3295691
>So without me having to go through 4 papers on a saturday, tell me why capitalism is unsustainable
Not him but prolly has to do with capitalist societies requiring infinite growth and growth being inherently unsustainable indefinitely.

>>3295691
Nigger the infinite growth meme is going to cost us our only home.

>>3294374
It promotes making increasingly greater profits and returns on investment, and when directed towards human quirks and vices will greatly exacerbate them at the cost of everyone else.

File: HGOL1523.jpg (80KB, 766x960px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 766x960px

>>3295691
>The only economic system to have broughts billions of people out of poverty, making life as we know it easy as piss to live compared to before capitalism. Socialism was at great expense to life.
>Yes, you're right, I could point towards the countless of failed states and the over a hundred million dead humans to prove that marxism, communism and socialism doesn't work and are inherently dangerous for mankind, but I don't even need to do that. One only has to look at any country that has adopted socialist policies to see the harm they've done and continue to do today.
this reply was so off base its not even worth mocking.
im legitimately sad.

>>3295730
>u wot
Taxation is a necessary condition for "defending its citizens". How do you expect it to fund the police and military without taxation?

>Again, taxation is not voluntary. It is theft.
Again, that's only true if the government uses force to prevent you from leaving the country (e.g. the Berlin wall). Otherwise, remaining in the country is a voluntary decision, MORE voluntary even than eating food. So if taxation is theft, so is charging people for food.

>The government forces you to give them your wealth or you'll be sent to jail
You'll also get sent to jail if you take stuff without paying for it. Which is exactly what taxation is - you're receiving the benefits of living in a particular country, without paying for them.

>Rent is a mutual agreement that both parties agree to and can cancel at any time. If I no longer want to pay rent, I don't have to. Taxation on the other hand is forced and there are no other options.
If you stop paying rent, you can't continue to live on the land you are renting. That's basically theft. Same deal with taxation. You can pay taxes and continue living in the country, or you can stop paying taxes and leave. What you can't do is receive the benefits of paying, without actually paying.

>>3295731
Not an argument.

File: C2E97B0D-4368-4C6F-9B23-F034614032C6.jpg (145KB, 1125x998px) Image search: [Google]

145KB, 1125x998px

Climate change

>>3295159
Income gaps need to remain level for the good of democracy for anyone who cares and isn't an outright elitist. Countries with higher income gaps are more undemocratic.

>>3295746
>infinite nautral resources

Which is why, in todays capitalist society, we see all kinds of companies working to create a sustainable society.

Please explain how the ecological sustainability is a problem because of capitalism, rather than just a problem in general, if a problem at all. Humans tend to move towards the things that are the most efficient and sustainable, we have throughout history and I see no reason other than authoritarianism why we shouldn't in the future as well.

And let's say that is the case, that ecological sustainability is a must for humanity to survive. Do you have a better solution to the problem other than capitalism? All I see is a lot of hating on the one economic system that has benefited mankind beyond what anyone ever thought was possible in a minimal amount of time.

>>3295751
>>3295756
>infinite growth meme again

zzz

>>3295764

Not an argument.

>>3295766
>taxation is a necessary condition

Sure, but we all know that police and military are a minority of the tax expenditures. It is the other things government steals for that I see a problem.

>muh food
No, a mutual agreement between two parties is not theft.

>benefits
Benefits I never asked for, benefits I never agreed nor wanted. That's the core argument of taxation. Kings would steal the peasants money and in turn give some of them gifts because you know, the king was so nice and gracious and look how good taxation is, it gives you gifts!

>>3295766
>if you stop paying rent you can no longer rent, that's theft
What am I reading? Renting something is a mutual agreement between two parties. I can choose to rent or I can choose not to rent. I can't choose not to pay taxes, unless I want to spend my life in jail.

>>3295794
ive given up on you already anon. Im not trying to be rude but im not going to start a fruitless endeavor that will only give me a headache.
maybe after i get some work done. check back in a few hours.

>>3295819

You merely need to state why capitalism is the problem and what your solution is. We have no more system as efficient and careful as capitalism, you're asking for more sustainability yet disregard the one system that can make sustainability a reality.

>>3295814
>No, a mutual agreement between two parties is not theft.
Taxation is a mutual agreement. You agree to give your money, and in exchange the government agrees to allow you to live on its land and benefit from its services. You can choose not to pay taxes, but you can't remain in the country without being guilty of theft.

>Benefits I never asked for, benefits I never agreed nor wanted
Yet you still agree to receiving them. So stop receiving them, and you no longer have to pay taxes.

>I can't choose not to pay taxes, unless I want to spend my life in jail.
Why do you think living in your country is not a choice?

>>3294832
>even though it shares the important aspects this is not MINE utopistic version of the impossible pure idealistic system that i support

>>3295814
>Not an argument.
no shit, congratulations you can win a debate just by being so blatantly wrong and oblivious to the subject that your opponent would rather pop pills and do laundry than try to communicate to you something that is very important to them.
put that on your resume.

>>3295848
>taxation is a mutual agreement
No it is not, that's a lie.

>yet you agree
I just said that in my last post that I don't agree.

No one chooses where they're born. Of course, if possibilities presented themselves where I could move to a country that embraces freedom and capitalism more then I would in a heartbeat, just so happens that's the the case in reality for the vast majority of people.

>>3295858

You really seem to care for human life when you dislike and try to discredit the one economic system that has done more good to human life than all other economic systems combined a hundred fold. Go pop some more pills you leftist lunatic.

>>3295862
>No it is not, that's a lie.
So even though you're unwilling to pay taxes to live in the country, something is preventing you from leaving?

>No one chooses where they're born.
Yet pretty much everyone old enough to pay taxes is also old enough to be able to leave the country. And suppose I'm born to a family living in an apartment building. Does that mean rent charged to me as a result of living there is theft?

>>3295831
>We have no more system as efficient and careful as capitalism
this is true.
capitalism is efficient at turning resources into capital and profiting from it. this is the problem. google "negative externality"
>the one system that can make sustainability a reality.
the facts say the opposite(read the fucking papers) https://favaretoufabc.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/2015-steffen-et-al-the-great-acceleration-1.pdf
>what your solution is
ecological anarchism, something i will not bother explaining to you unless you can demonstrate a prior knowledge of what ecology and anarchy are.
sorry for being so rash with you anon, its just conversations like these make me want to throw myself off the ivory tower.

>>3295873

Yes, in reality people have lives to tend to and can't just choose to do a 180 and move to another country on a whim.

Of course, and smart people reduce their taxes, by moving or through other means. Nothing new.

>>3295879
>fact

No, that's not a fact. Mankind is an expert at adaptation, hence why we are still here today.

>ecological anarchism

Why not ancap? :^)

>>3295867
>human life
As a deep ecologist i care about life in general.
>try to discredit the one economic system that has done more good to human life than all other economic systems combined a hundred fold.
give me extraordinary evidence to support this extraordinary claim. Dont leave out your null hypothesis
>. Go pop some more pills
now we're talking

>>3294630
Communism is unironically the only alternative

>>3295895
>Why not ancap? :^)
Because "an"capism isn't anarchist, it still requires private property which cannot exist without hierarchy.

>>3294825
Venezuela is a shit example because 90% of the economy is privately owned, for profit businesses

Only a couple industries are nationalized, and most of them still operate to turn a profit

It would be disengenous to say what is wrong with the system without admitting the obvious good which seems to be an issue with the direction of this discussion.

In my mind, issues with it include: that it generally requires low quality, high quantity populations that is tricked into "slavery" and is effectively poisoned (television, video games, poor diet, etc.), that it creates tendencies towards excessive urbanization, and that it encourages the break down of tribal and/or local communities for the sake of globalism.

That being said, it's not all that bad. My life is pretty damn good and I am blessed with an amazing standard of living. Honestly, I probably have one of the best lives any living creature has had on this planet, and most of it basically got handed straight to me.. and my parents aren't even that rich. I'm just upper middle class and white and live in a rural area with a great education, and that in itself is a roll of the dice that I am grateful to have gotten.

That being said, I'm not foolish enough to ignore that I have this because there are literal slaves keeping me here.

>>3295559
>Yet here capitalism stands, some hundreds of years later
what hundreds of years? do you smoke crack?
before 1900's there was a fucking oligarchy propped up by milking 3rd world shitholes, and even americans living in big cities lived like fucking peasants and after 1900's banks took over propped up by big fucking wars and what was left afterwards called itself market capitalism that exists thanks to speculative economics and occasional war for good measure, and every time there is a hiccup it threatens to take whole fucking world with it, so they print more money and invite niggers as cheap labor to save it

disregard how many millions this shit system definitely helped to ruin and kill, saying it's "going strong" is fucking ridiculous

>>3295895
>Mankind is an expert at adaptation, hence why we are still here today.
please dont say this.Im a postgrad concentrating i theoretical ecology and evolutionary biology, and you are making me upset. You are wrong, i dont feel obliged to tell you why you why this proposition factually incorrect. I will only point out that this is a fallacious argument, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
please do us all a favor and recognize when you dont know what you are talking about.
>Why not ancap? :^)
private property and capital are authoritarian processes and are guaranteed to be accumulated by a hierarchical entity.
I value liberty and equality

File: capitalism1.jpg (299KB, 1108x938px) Image search: [Google]

299KB, 1108x938px

>>3295899

Go out in real life and look around. Capitalism.

>>3295900

Communism doesn't work.

>>3295927
>before the industrial revolution and technology people didn't live like we do today
Color me surprised.

>central banking
Government

>wars
Government

>print more money
Government

>let anyone and everyone come and on top of that give them shit you stole from your citizens
Government

I don't see how capitalism is the problem here.

Again, what do you compare it to? At what cost and where's the evidence.

>>3295911
>and most of them still operate to turn a profit

So many of the so called "socialist" countries aren't socialism, state capitalism is still capitalism (china,Cuba even the USSR). Anyway, venezuela is just a corrupted left wing government with a great sector of the economy but still capitalist, funny thing is they still considered themselves "XXI century socialism" and use anti imperialist slogans. Now is used like a meme example of the failures of capitalism and "socialism".

>>3295936
>I do this I do that, you're wrong but I've got no arguments or evidence
k

>I value liberty and equality
>yet I absolutely despise capitalism
You seem retarded.

>>3295940
>Go out in real life and look around. Capitalism.
i spend 60% of my /out/ time researching in the wilderness.
when i go into what you call "the real world" i become horribly depressed at the sight of the things i love most in the world being destoryed and replaced with a disgusting consumerist hellscape or more often i completely withdraw into my thoughts to escape from the terror it brings me. I do not feel pleasure or much at all in the world you live in, i know what it takes for it to function.
so, no, id rather not spend time in that synthetic ecology

>>3295940
>Mises

>>3295691
>non arguments
t. Molymeme

>>3295957

Yeah you seem like a fucking lunatic desu, go pop more pills. Also seek professional help, something you can get easily in a capitalist society.

>>3295958
>not an argument

>>3295962
Not an argument.

>>3295954
>>I do this I do that, you're wrong but I've got no arguments or evidence
did you miss this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
what you posted was formal nonsense, so i dont need to worry about truth values .

>You seem retarded.
there is nothing more than what you know. Sign logic is a tricky thing if you are ignorant.

Thats far from the truth, i dont appreciate this rudeness after i have tried so hard to refrain from mocking you.

>>3295951
>>before the industrial revolution and technology people didn't live like we do today
nice omission of robber barons and slavers before them, faggot, guess they were government too, since they defacto controlled the country
>central banking
>Government
central bank is a private business
>print more money
>Government
central bank is a private business
>let anyone and everyone come and on top of that give them shit you stole from your citizens
or else your precious fucking system collapses
the only way to get out if at least temporarily is to make people buy shit even if it's with borrowed money and for some poor suckers to come in and work shit nobody else wants to anymore

don't you see where I'm fucking going with this?
I don't want to nationalize your house, I want out of this shit socialism/capitalism carousel because both are fucking unsustainable shit

>>3295981
>it wasn't my dream socialist utopia so it was just robber barons and slavers
zzz

Central banks relies on the government, answers to the government and is in fact controlled by the government.

>both are unsustainable
False. Capitalism works just fine if all socialist policies are removed, as we've seen throughout history.

File: quote-the-thing-about-smart-people-is-that-they-seem-like-crazy-people-to-dumb-people-stephen-hawking-51-62-88 (1).jpg (57KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 850x400px

>>3295969
Sure thing mister internet shrink
I have schizoid personality disorder, i am n no way delusional, im a very logical and fact oriented person. You wont see me talking authoritatively about how things "seem"
>pic related: i just couldn't help myself

File: 1487502199862.jpg (2MB, 7680x4320px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 7680x4320px

>>3295989
>Central banks relies on the government
complete opposite
>answers to the government
yeah, like not even being susceptible to a fucking audit
>and is in fact controlled by the government
pic related

>>3294392
Can someone explain to me why wealth inequality is a bad thing? As in, the rich get richer, the poor get richer, but the gap grows?

>>3296001

Federal reserve was created by government, it's board is decided by the government, it's 'job' is decided by the government. It is a cancer that we can and should do without. We have no need for it.

>>3296002
They can't. They just think it's bad because it's unfair, as if anything in life is fair.

>>3295979
>>3295954
>Sign logic is a tricky thing
when i say "sign logic" i am referring to this
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-semiotics/#BasSigStr
go ahead and give it a read, it will enrich your life

>>3295989
>>it wasn't my dream socialist utopia so it was just robber barons and slavers
"it wasn't my dream laissez-faire utopia so it wasn't Real Capitalism(TM)"

>>3296002
It does mean that most of the economic growth is going to the upper class, even if the lower classes benefit somewhat as well. And if commodity prices go up as well, the poor are actually getting poorer on real terms, even if they're getting wealthier "on paper".

>>3295969
>pills
Companies like Pfizer producing stimulants during WW2 including the meth which was given to kamikazes and companies continue to do so for the military industrial complex and profit from proxy wars that increase the demand for medicines.
Also the rise in heroin addiction from over prescription of opioids.

>>3296027
That same reasoning could be used to say that crimes should go unpunished. Just saying.

>>3296037
Said no one ever.

You seem to equate everything in the past with capitalism, as if capitalism is responsible for slavery, baron or anything else.

>>3296039
Indeed, a big powerful government is a scary thing, yet so many people today seem to want just that despite what we know happens. History is bound to repeat itself.

>>3295989
>False. Capitalism works just fine if all socialist policies are removed, as we've seen throughout history.
Which has never happened because nobody is that stupid.

>>3296047
Corporations were in cahoots with governments after buying their way in or made to do their bidding as in the case of Phillips during the Third Reich.
Progressives want regulations to prevent wealthy commercial entities from being unrestrained.

>>3296059

Oh it has happened plenty of times. These new socialist policies are the exception, not the rule.

>>3296045
Robber barons were definitely part of capitalism.

>>3296074
Yeah this thread has convinced me more than any other that /his/ was a huge fucking mistake.

>>3296065
Indeed, the power of the government is dangerous.

>>3296047
A government shouldn't be a scary thing because it's ideally the manifestation of the people's will and not some invisible string pulling bogey man. That's more like what happens under free enterprise.

You've probably been brainwashed by corny Cold War era cartoons.
https://youtu.be/NxsNU7ZZAlU

This could be an antidote.
https://youtu.be/aDaOgu2CQtI

>>3296103
In theory yes the government is a manifestation on the people's will, but in reality as we all know that is not the case today.

File: IMG_0016.jpg (703KB, 1720x1293px) Image search: [Google]

703KB, 1720x1293px

>but uhhh like u buy all ur shit in capitalist economies.go move to North Korea or alone in the woods of you are "morally opposed" to living the good life you idiot commie hypocrite

Not seen as a threat, or so we’ve been told
I hold the key, I blame the key
Made me, defame the mold
I got that priceless touch won't cost you a fucking thing.

File: IMG_0151.jpg (59KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 400x300px

>>3296002
Because the rich are getting richer off the work of the poor and by """"privatizing"""" the world we depend on.
When some can own the wealth that was produced by others, and can privately own the means of production, this is robbery to all who are deprived from the fruit of their labor and their natural right to live without paying someone else for it.
Capital is Piracy! Private Property is imperialism! When the illusion of economic self determination vanishes, the veil the golden curtain is lifted we can see how it really is, Capitalism is Slavery, The State holds the whip, and we are bound by the shackles of the law!
We used to be free, but our liberty has been subverted. We are told we are given equal opportunity, everyone knows that isn't true but doesn't do anything about it.
(pls no bully I know this post was autistic) be civil.

>>3296002

Eventually the poor will get so poor that they have nothing left to lose and they'll start arming themselves.

>>3294589
>Historically that's the rule, not the exception. It's nothing new that came with "western capitalism".
There has never been wealth differences like there is now. There are 8 people in the US that have more wealth thatn the bottom half of the entire human race.

>>3296002

There's nothing wrong with it because in a free society where people have different abilities and ambitions, economic disparity will naturally occur. What is problematic however is the wealth gap becoming too large because a sizeable gap between classes actually increases crime. Since achieving social mobility becomes too difficult to achieve through legal means, many people end up turning to illegal means as a way to climb up the ladder.

>>3295083
>There's no need to regulate factories for better working conditions, it's going to happen naturally in the free market.
Based on what? If the people are too poor to just up and move to a different city, and you own all the businesses, then you have zero reason to improve working conditions. Again, their only other choice is to starve, they can't do anything about it. If anything it incentivizes you to spend even less on working conditions because you have a monopoly.

>>3296671
There has always been wealth differences like there is now. As I said, wealth difference has been the rule, not the exception throughout history.

>>3294495

The tendency under capitalism is that the rich continue to become richer while the poor become poorer. I hope I don't have to explain why this is bad.

>>3296730
Except that's not true at all. The 'rich' become richer and the poor become richer. The 'rich' is not one group set in stone, it's a lot of different people during different times. Very few people manage to stay in that group for long. It's merely the economy.

>>3294374
Profits over morality. The constitution was designed to be followed by those of pure minds, bodies, and souls.

>>3296719
Based on the free market. There's something that is looked down upon today sadly and it's called competition, companies compete with each other, for workers and for employees. You're talking about a monopoly, the only monopolies that exist today are government monopolies, no free market monopolies.

>>3296113
That's why you take back the government.

>>3294374
It's too successful.

All the problems western liberals complain about are made up problems that they feel like they must address because their lives are too good.

If you're worrying about which gender you are, or whether fat people are oppressed or not, then your life is probably pretty good.

Think about it for a second, we literally have a society where people argue that those who have TOO MUCH, fat people, are the oppressed.

>>3296741
>Based on the free market.
You seem to be running on the assumption that if there's competition, companies will be good people and improve conditions to make a more appealing workplace. All it takes is for the companies to all decide to be shitty to their employees to keep a system that's shitty but still a free market.

Which of course ignores that a truly free market is impossible because you cant have a completely free system without people that take advantage of and cheat that system. Much like how you can't have a modern civilization with cars without violating the NAP. Same reason why even the biggest ancap writers said we shouldn't have competing law enforcement groups in an ancap society because that would always lead to war and rule of the strong.

>>3296787
>All it takes is for the companies to all decide to be shitty to their employees to keep a system that's shitty but still a free market.
Their is no incentive to do that. Employees and customers will go to the corporation that does not.

>>3295940
How can you say communism doesn't work if it has not existed?

The worst that can be said is that communism CAN'T exist, but that's an unfounded speculation centered around your small-minded assumption that private property and commodity production will never, ever disappear.

>>3296801
>Employees and customers will go to the corporation that does not.
If the employees and customers don't have the financial ability to travel to said corporation, they won't really have a choice.

>>3296801
>Their is no incentive to do that.

Sure there is, every penny not spent on worker conditions is a penny on the balance sheet that can go into current assets.

>>3295952
You're probably the only anon I've seen not be completely retarded about Venezuela

How does the NAP work with arms manufacturers, whose only people is to develop things that kill.

>>3296816
only purpose*

The problem with the NAP is if it isn't enforced universally on the whole planet, the society will eventually fall to one more unified and destructive. No individual mercenary group possesses the ability to stand up to a national army. ISIS has killed about 18,000 people in 2 years and that's terrible, but 18,000 dead is an hour on the modern battlefield.

>>3296809
I think the private property and commodity production will disappear when (if) we reach a post scarcity economy.

>>3295873

>Something is preventing you

yes? You know countries don't just let anybody who wants to enter, right? There's a whole cumbersome process to do it and they may very well just say no? You can in some cases enter illegally but then you're an outlaw and you're ripe for exploitation because you cannot seek the protection of the law? And even in cases like the H1B visa in the US, employers routinely work those people like dogs because they can hold that work visa over their head?

do you care about the authenticity of your argument at all?

>>3296810
>If the employees and customers don't have the financial ability to travel to said corporation, they won't really have a choice.
Everywhere corporations abuse their employees, there will exist corporations that do not. They gain a competitive advantage from doing so.
>>3296812
>Sure there is, every penny not spent on worker conditions is a penny on the balance sheet that can go into current assets.
Incredibly short sighted. Shareholders don't care about a short term increase in working capital when firm value is at stake.

>>3296809
>How can you say communism doesn't work if it has not existed?
It's even less feasible than what has already existed.

>>3296002
Social ills increase as wealth inequality increase. Especially equality of opportunity

>>3296841
>Shareholders don't care about a short term increase in working capital when firm value is at stake.

Shareholders literally only care about the short term unless they have stock for the long haul which most don't.

>Everywhere corporations abuse their employees, there will exist corporations that do not. They gain a competitive advantage from doing so.

Again, what if that area does not have corporations that don't abuse their employees.

File: 2bcd7d17c4a27af6d21fe63142ea661fad46a3c94fbb309eb7f4453c338c5bb5.jpg (94KB, 400x283px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 400x283px

>>3296841
>They gain a competitive advantage from doing so
>implying
Not with the threat of union power and labor laws under their throats

>>3296921
>shareholders literally only care about short term
False.

>what if what if what if

>>3296934
Unions are cancer

>>3296950

If we're talking about a fictional make-believe society that has never happened, then yes we need to engage in what-ifs.

File: 999fc488004f2fb9adeb7fc8a3afecf6cd3dda35046dda8c26e38893ce5a05f6.jpg (67KB, 922x922px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 922x922px

>>3296952
Not an argument

File: Union_are_evil.jpg (64KB, 394x500px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 394x500px

>>3296952
for U

>>3296921
>Shareholders literally only care about the short term unless they have stock for the long haul which most don't.
Fucking over employees just to increase working capital does not increase firm value.
>Again, what if that area does not have corporations that don't abuse their employees.
Why would it not?

>>3296934
>Not with the threat of union power and labor laws under their throats
Wtf is your point? Companies that do not abuse their workers will not gain a competitive advantage because of labour laws?

>>3296934
>>3296966
You are supposed to change the filenames, comrades.

File: 2c5dfb03c4c2735d4d9358b0e3325dc18cef186c65446ea8c54df97b0f6d384f.png (150KB, 624x318px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 624x318px

>>3297045
That Companies are forced to not abuse their workers via unions and labour laws, not coz of the profit motive. Learn to read.

>does not increase firm value.
It does. Extracting more value from the workers means more profits from the shareholders

>filename
pic related

1. Logical fallacies
2. Cognitive biases
3. Heuristics
4. Psychological effects
5. Ignorance of Bayesian Mathematics
6. Lack of rational priorities

>>3297063
>he thinks unions are helpful in any way
oh lord

File: 138478969495.jpg (17KB, 318x322px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 318x322px

>>3297078
>he think appealing to ridicule counts as an argument
Oh lord

File: antisocialist_propaganda.png (2MB, 1360x1316px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1360x1316px

>>3297063
>>3296966
>>3296988
>>3296934
Use this image better

>>3297095
All unions do is take away freedom from the workers while fucking them over. If people wanted unions, they'd vote for unions. Just look at what happened in the coal business thanks to unions. Unions are for unions, not the workers.

>>3297063
>They gain a competitive advantage from doing so
>Not with the threat of union power and labor laws under their throats
Learn to read.
>forced
>profit motive
Learn to read.
>It does.
No it doesn't. A company could also increase it's working capital by firing all it's workers and selling it's assets. What do you think would happen to it's value?

>>3294688
Are you the modern version of a faggot?

File: unionmembership_wages.png (14KB, 553x430px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 553x430px

>>3297108
Says the corporate bootlicker.

Baby boomers stopped voting for unions because they bought the Reagan con and are currently sipping the Trump juice in their twilight years. The pendulum is all set to start swinging back in the opposite direction.

>>3297108
>. Just look at what happened in the coal business thanks to unions
Coal is dying because natural gas is eating its lunch

File: IWW.jpg (29KB, 320x320px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 320x320px

>>3297108
>If people wanted unions, they'd vote for unions
No they come together to form unions. And they did with pic related.

>coal business thanks to unions
Oh yes the declining need for coal is totally due to unions

>>3297119
I said >implying and then provided a counter-explanation. Learn to greentext and read idiot.

>What do you think would happen to it's value?
Coming up with another alternative doesn't undercut my explanation genius

>>3297119
>A company could also increase it's working capital by firing all it's workers and selling it's assets. What do you think would happen to it's value?
That's basically what's happening to Sears. Their CEO is an amoral randroid puke with no sense of community or patriotism who is actively parasitizing off the dying company, enriching himself while driving thousands out of work.

>>3297192
>They gain a competitive advantage from doing so
>implying
>Not with the threat of union power and labor laws under their throats
You are legitimately retarded. Learn to read.
>Coming up with another alternative doesn't undercut my explanation genius
Your explanation is silly. Companies tend not to shoot themselves in the foot.

>>3297192
>No they come together to form unions. And they did with pic related.
People wanted communism/fascism/whateverism!! See, these people formed a party!

It's disgusting and the embodiment of the Antichrist. It is oecologically dissonant. It pacifies. It is murderous.

>>3295272
We don't need technology, technology is a horrid beast. No technology that rapes, which what technology has been for the past 400 years, can ever be a salvation.
We do not need technology to restore the oecostasis, we need our Mystical Adolescence.

>>3296834
It's still not theft or coercion though. The government of the country in which you currently live is not responsible for ensuring that you have viable alternatives, any more than business owners are responsible for ensuring that their customers have viable alternatives. The only obligation they have is to provide you with the products and services which you pay for.

>>3297108
>Unions are for unions, not the workers.
I hope you realize the same is true of business owners. Even the basic principle of capitalism, the whole "motivation" thing, assumes business owners are ONLY interested in increasing their own wealth and not in improving conditions for their workers.

>>3297256
What level of popular support does something need before you are willing to accept it as legitimate?

>>3297255
I wrote >implying which is to mean "implying they actually gain a comparatively advantage to do so". I doubted your statement and gave another explanation. Lurk more newfag.

>Companies tend not to shoot themselves in the foot.
Oh my dear sweet summer child. Either tell me why my explanation is silly or all you have are non-arguments

>>3295704
>the government owns the land
Wrong
Rent is theft
>muh social contract
Fuck off back to r*ddit

>>3295766
>how else would they pay their thugs to rob, rape, and murder, if they didn't rop, rape, and murder us first!

>>3297249
>enriching himself while driving thousands out of work.
http://fortune.com/2017/03/31/sears-eddie-lampert-net-worth-hedge-fund/

>>3295867
>human life is good
Off yourself, humanist scum
'capitalism' does no good. It does perceived-good, which idiots (you) see as good. A gift from the king after he sold your daughters into prostitution for not being able to pay taxes after he razed your fields and stole your cattle, if you will.

You ignore the problems and only see the end result.

>>3297278
Yes, turns out that 'vulture capitalism' isn't a particularly sustainable business model

>>3295940
>real llife
No such thing exists, you scum have shattered it.
You ideologues are too deep in to see how sick you are.

File: ac7MA7r5IMYda.gif (471KB, 474x379px) Image search: [Google]

471KB, 474x379px

>>3297272
>Fuck off back to r*ddit
back to r_the_donald with you, projecting faggot

>>3295969
Typical psychobabble. Disagreeing with the rapists and murderers makes one 'LE CRAZY XDDD' yes? That's some nice freedom there.

>>3297289
I'm not a rapist or a murderer, so I will not go back to /r/eddit, where you belong.
Trumpism and politics wholly are inherently incompatible with me.

>>3297272
>Wrong
Then what right does it have to enforce its laws on your property? And what obligation does it have to protect your property from crime and invasion?

>Rent is theft
Why?

>Fuck off back to r*ddit
Not an argument.

>>3297277
So you'd rather live in a society without any law enforcement? I hope you realize that would just end up being might-makes-right, anyone stronger than you could take your stuff and make you their slave, and you would have no recourse.

>>3297301
>t. Radical Centrist

People like money. People will do bad things for money.

>>3297271
>I wrote >implying which is to mean
No shit.
>Not with the threat of union power and labor laws under their throats
This is the part that didn't make sense. I was talking with someone about a situation where there would obviously be no labour laws. You interjected like a belligerent fool. Completely out of context.
>Oh my dear sweet summer child.
>>>/reddit/
>Either tell me why my explanation is silly or all you have are non-arguments
Abusing and fucking over your employees for profit does not increase firm value. If a company did, it's share price would fall far lower than what a marginal increase in dividends could compensate for.

>>3297316
They have no right, they only assume so.
>Arguments are good
Back to r*ddit
>>3297316
>I hope you realize that would just end up being might-makes-right, anyone stronger than you could take your stuff and make you their slave, and you would have no recourse.
Only before the Mystic Adolescence.
I am not a centrist. I don't have a politic because I am not a humanist.

>>3297319
>about a situation where there would obviously be no labour laws
No it wasn't.

>>>/reddit/
Not an argument, the divorce between productivity and wages in reality speaks otherwise

>Abusing and fucking over your employees for profit does not increase firm value.
It does, we see this all the time with labor exploitation in the clothing industry for example and companies are still getting away with that bullshit

>>3296002
Naturally, rich people will try to push their children on top, and keep all other children down.
This will lead to a situation where not the most talented and well suited come into positions of power, but those who have the most powerful parents

>>3295746
I can say the same thing about socialism
>Soviet Union's numerous ecological bungles (Chernobyl, Corn Caper, Aral Sea draining, etc.)
>You will run out of other people's money. You say resources aren't unlimited, Money is one of these things. Sure you can print money, but enjoy your inflation.
>Get educated fallacy
>Externalities are how the economic system works
>What is Microeconomics

The inability of capitalism to account for negative externalities is an existential threat to humanity. That seems like a pretty important issue.

>>3297161
Unions are for unions, not workers. Your thoughts or feelings are of no relevance, we all have the facts in front of us.

>>3297163
Coal died way back due to unions.

>>3297192

The decline of coal in the U.S. was due to unions. Companies switched to oil and replaced humans with machines when the unions got what they wanted.

Artificial pricing never works, be that of minimum wages or rent control, it always ends up with the same result.

>>3297267
Indeed, companies are for companies, unions are for unions, politicians are for politicians.

It's stupid and naive to believe that unions have workers best interest at heart, they have their own best interests at heart. Unions create nothing, they leech and destroy.

>>3297331
>No it wasn't.
>You seem to be running on the assumption that if there's competition, companies will be good people and improve conditions to make a more appealing workplace. All it takes is for the companies to all decide to be shitty to their employees to keep a system that's shitty but still a free market.

>>>/reddit/
>Not an argument, the divorce between productivity and wages in reality speaks otherwise
Speaks otherwise of reddit? I don't know what you mean. Wages in countries such as China and India have increased significantly along with productivity.

>It does, we see this all the time with labor exploitation in the clothing industry for example and companies are still getting away with that bullshit
What companies? And what exploitation?

>>3297285
>capitalism does no good

You're retarded.

>>3297372
project harder

>>3297287
>capitalism has shattered life

Seek help.

>>3297293
>capitalists are rapists and murderers

Get an education.

File: 1495384501506.jpg (31KB, 553x602px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 553x602px

>>3297373
>capitalism does no good
>it's a perceived-good
>only idiots thinks its good

>wahh people have more money than me because their families were smarter/ not drug addicts/ alcoholics/ spent money stupidly/ were from 3rd world and have aids wahhhh

>>3297374
>seek help
Psychobabble nonsense
>get an education
By the rapists and murderers? I think not.
Regardless, I am more educated than you.
>>3297383
I can guarantee my family has more money than that of every single person in this thread, and possibly on this board.

>>3297391

You legit do need help.

>>3297365
And the fact that oil is superior to coal and the constant machination of work doesn't exist?

>>3297370
That greentext didn't say anything about a lawless place or ancap paradise

>Wages in countries such as China and India have increased significantly along with productivity.
Because they have not fully industrialized. The divorce i was talking about is happening in the West

>What companies? And what exploitation?
Those brand fashion companies. Child labor, unsafe work conditions.... typical Glided Age labor problems

>>3297395
>That greentext didn't say anything about a lawless place or ancap paradise
He said:
>free market
Also
>Which of course ignores that a truly free market is impossible

>Because they have not fully industrialized. The divorce i was talking about is happening in the West
Wages in the west have been to high.

>Those brand fashion companies. Child labor, unsafe work conditions.... typical Glided Age labor problems
It's better than the alternative, that's why they choose to work for those companies. It will decrease when the countries they live in industrialise and productivity increases as it has in China.

>>3297420
free market doesn't automatically mean no laws moron.

>Wages in the west have been to high.
Wewwwwwwwwww lads.

>It's better than the alternative, that's why they choose to work for those companies.
Debatable at best, and it doesn't take away or undercut the fact that there is exploitation going on.

>it will decrease when the countries they live in industrialise and productivity increases as it has in China.
Oh please, you mean the country that builds suicide nets? Oh maybe when productivity increase so much that it will divorce from rising wages like what is already seen in the West. Yea the future is really bright guys

>>3297474
>free market doesn't automatically mean no laws moron.
A market is not truly free if there are labour laws. Moron.

>Wewwwwwwwwww lads.
It's true. Why do you think companies offshore jobs? It's because they can pay less for a given level of productivity.

>Debatable at best, and it doesn't take away or undercut the fact that there is exploitation going on.
It isn't debatable. They are not slaves, they choose to work there. Supplying jobs is not exploitation.

>Oh please, you mean the country that builds suicide nets?
I'm sure just about every country has built suicide nets

>divorce from rising wages like what is already seen in the West.
Literally just increased global competition (offshoring because western wages are too high) and technological change.

File: ancap meme 23.jpg (84KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 640x640px

>>3297547

>>3297365
>blaming the unions for everything
>le feelings meme
I wish you were a worker in the 1910s or 1920s, when you could get shot or disappear for being in the IWW or striking for better conditions. You'd really see the actual "facts" rather than your ivory tower bullshit from the Mises Institute.

>>3296002
Read Turchin. See:
http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/strange-disappearance/

>>3297369
Do you even know what syndicalism and workers self management is?

Everybody defends the capitalist system until it fucks with them (which it will do the sooner or the later)

Pathetic desu

>>3298264

The minimum wage is always zero.

The problem is that the wealthy influence politicians with money to create a playing field that favors them.

>>3298363
That's not a problem of capitalism though.

>>3298358
It's illegal in this country to pay zero dollars an hour.

File: 1438116722948.jpg (51KB, 741x649px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 741x649px

>muh capitalism
Why are americans so fucking retarded?

>>3298369

That is however how much you are paid if you have no job.

>>3298375
>muh socialism
Why are eurocommies so fucking retarded?

>>3298368
Yes it is a feature

>>3298368
Sorry, but in real life you either have the government in charge or the corporations dictating what the government does. Money talks.

>>3298383
It's a feature of a corrupt government, it has nothing to do with capitalism.

>>3298384
You could also have a free market, where the people dictates what companies do.

Only in times of a big and powerful government will you have authoritarianism.

>>3298385
Communism is perfect! Humans are without flaws and will respect the system.

File: 1493660351805.png (13KB, 189x105px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 189x105px

>>3298388
Yes of course, everytime it has been implemented it has been a huge success.

>>3298386
Or you can just look around and see real life.

>Muh perfect brand of capitalism has never been tried!!

File: Work_harder_lazy_Kids.jpg (53KB, 480x445px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 480x445px

"anarcho" capitalism needs to be catalogued as a mental disease

>>3298398
Just like capitalism. Those with money will never buy out politicians!

>>3298399
And what do we see in real life? Big powerful governments.

>>3298402
not an argument

>>3298404
when there are incentives to do so, of course they will, corruption tends to leave to even more corruption

>>3298405
Influenced by lobbyists, to protect the corporations and the wealthy. Even Wrigley's gum has influenced American foreign policy.

>>3298413
Yes, a big powerful government tends to lead to just that.

>>3298407
which again shows that is a feature of capitalism

>>3298416
It is a feature of government

>>3298420
government and capitalism. You are right in thinking that non-captialistic government can be corrupt, but capitalism has taken that into a full fledged industry. A captialistic government has to be corrupt.

>system that requires infinite growth
>on a planet that has finite resources
>sustainable

how does it feel to be a brainlet that gets all of its political education from retards on youtube

Money is power. Power corrupts. Big or small government doesn't matter.

>>3298428
In fact any system we have doesn't really matter. People will find ways to game the system. Human societies are doomed to fail eventually.

>>3296952
If you're an employer who wants to harm workers, yes

>>3298398
>when you're such a bootlicking retard you can't even recognize a fellow capitalist being sarcastic

>>3298380
The collective economy of France, Britain and Germany could form a power to rival china, if """"""socialism"""""'s that fucking bad then this just doesn't make sense.

>>3294374
>What exactly is wrong with the system?
>Speaking for western capitalism.

Why do you start with an asummption?

Explain first IF there is anything wrong and then we can talk about your argument being valid.

File: IMG_0168.jpg (855KB, 554x408px) Image search: [Google]

855KB, 554x408px

>>3297336
>equating the Soviet Union to anarchism
>other people's money.
I'm into labour based theory of value in mutualist markets, and/or any other kind or anarchist economy. Other people's money isn't a thing in those.
>get educated fallacy
I wasn't using his ignorance as an argument. I was explaining that I refuse to argue with someone who doesn't understand my frame of reference
>externalities are how markets work
I know this, capitalist markets do nothing about negative externalities. I'm saying we need to take care of externalities before market.
>what is microeconomics
The study of how individual agents trade goods and services. It depends on what kind economy in the various economic phylogenies(capitalist, communist, socialist, anarchist) I think all economics is better understood from an ecological perspective anyhow.

>>3298427
It gets even worse when you understand things like complexity, connectivity robustness, adaptive capacity, and ecosystem dynamics. Capitalism is breaking own all the parameters that give the world order.

File: 9f8a558ea43387054c6575b6d2801124460443e4a7aeeeb45fba686119d03455.png (461KB, 1147x645px) Image search: [Google]

461KB, 1147x645px

>>3298464
>Implying you can be efficient and better than capitalism without a central planning system.

Anarchist systems are too disperse and decentralized to make a significant change without central managing.

>>3298442
Unions have done more harm to workers than any sadistic employer could ever dream of

>>3298449
Oh I knew.

>>3298450
Socialism is bad, I really don't see what you're getting at.

>>3298497
>central planning
>efficient
>even comparable to capitalism

>>3298427
Not an argument.

>>3298514
This not was for you brain dead ancrapist

File: IMG_0099.png (438KB, 808x805px) Image search: [Google]

438KB, 808x805px

>>3298497
Take this foo foo shit to the garbage overly connected and highly centralized networks are, fragile, discount the less centralized nodes, and are prone to cascading failure.
Compartmentalization of networks lowers the computational/communicative complexity of the system, increases robustness, and gives people more liberty.
You can look at the most efficient systems, ecological systems, they are a very far way from central planning.
Synergy works better than authority, okay?

Capitalists hate the funding for liberal arts and are pushing 24/7 le everybody must be a STEMfaggot meme yet they ignore that it is precisely capitalism the thing that lets this happen as in a statist society the state would planify and remove or limit the numbers of disciplines and formation according its needs

Thank you capitalists for protecting (albeit ruining) the humanities

>>3294630
Something something capitalist realism

File: 1494964717521.gif (3MB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 200x200px

well it can spawn or invite things that will be beyond your state to do anything about
if you are nationalist person its bad otherwise it don matter

File: accelerationism-in-one-image-extremely-low-quality-6803405.png (45KB, 500x610px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 500x610px

>>3296660

>>3298376
Then that's not a wage.

>>3298585
Except the only reason we have people with degrees in liberal arts, post-transhumanist feminism and whatever other bogus they made up is because of the government.

>>3298664
Indeed, and what happens to jobs when you artificially increase the minimum wage? People lose their jobs and also their wage.

File: New_socialism_book.jpg (20KB, 325x500px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 325x500px

>>3298577
you didn't really read that book, right? cybernetic planned economy realies not only in computer but in the democratic control of the MoP for the workers,this is not a Skynet Stalin I.A, is an interconected system of democratic managing.

File: 1496113280157.jpg (24KB, 233x343px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 233x343px

>>3298695
>cybernetic planned economy

>>3298682
0/10

>>3298714
Pray tell, what demand is there for these """degrees" in the market? I'll tell you: zero. There's no demand. Who's paying for them? Government.

File: bread.png (482KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

482KB, 480x640px

>>3298701
I know is too deep to you, but don't worry is not your fault to be brainlet.

>>3298722
Are you denying the fact that government doesn't hand out student loans?

>>3298770
>cybernetic planned economy

>>3298723
>Stage 1: denial
Of course there's no demand. But it sells, like a product. People are convinced it's worth and will land them a job via advertising. That's why they are offered, so the CEO- I mean, the Principal of the University drowns in money.

Thanks capitalism and free market!

>>3298775
>"free" market

>>3298794
>there's no demand but it sells

It sells because government hands out student loans to anyone and everyone. It's not the work of capitalism or the free market but that of the government. In a free market you would see very little if any such degrees simply because, as you yourself claimed, there's no demand.

>>3298814
No, the government is the payer, which makes tax payers the payers.

The government handing out student loans is not a boogeyman but a fact.

>>3298803
Yeah, I forgot that boob implants, fidget spinners, porn and over 9000 more useless things are also loaned by the government.

In a free market such useless stuff wouldn't exist, it's all the government's fault :^)

>>3298823
Yes, the student loan bubble is solely due to government interference in the market.

File: IMG_0169.gif (15KB, 350x300px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 350x300px

>>3298695
Yeah I didn'tread I can only pay attention to analytical stuff but from our conversation I can tell what it's about.
Centrally planned economies don't have the adaptability and resilience of living systems with emergent properties.
Self organization is superior. People should be left to their own in a systems where boundaries are what detirmines behavior and not some teleological computation. Cybernetics has a place, not for planning but for the coordination of planning. Compartmentalized systems need to be connected thru mutual interaction, out of this they can coordinate themselves at higher levels of organization while still maintaining their autonomy. Out of this nested hierarchies of organization(not social hierarchies) will emerge. This way we can take advantage of multiple realizability and downward causation, to effectively coordinate the system without centralization. Just like how living systems work
Here are some more thing I haven't read yet but I want you to read, because I know they are along the lines of what I am talking about
http://www.academia.edu/2409728/Panarchy_Is_What_We_Make_of_It_Why_a_World_State_Is_Not_Inevitable

http://twin.sci-hub.io/cb108e066735997373dd1084fb6b7bf9/mazzocchi2016.pdf

http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783319275482-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1551083-p177831305

>>3298874
Well I confess I and not very likely to accept the idea of an anarchist socialism, but I suppose is a much better option then capitalism and "free market" worshipers

>>3294392
Globalism and free market capitalism does not work together. Native workers will just be replaced by imported slaves.

>>3294551
>Progressive tax's are cancerous
This belief is what enrages the masses.

>>3298723
Nah technically the people are paying for them since it's literally impossible to discharge student loans, even in bankruptcy from the government. Do not an argument. You may argue that the government is loaning money in subprime ways, but I doubt the vast majority want the government to run effeciently at a profit.

>>3298970
Of course, the masses are stupid.

>>3298988
The government shouldn't hand out loans to begin with.

>>3299076
Yeah that's communism

>>3299076
You also shouldn't try and steal and Rob people blind
But hey people do that so the government steps in so this isn't Africa
Quickly moving that way with Jewish warlords.

>>3298498
Absolutely not. The only reason outsourcing happened is because unions didn't go far enough

Every form of governance will be the same, those with money and those without. Get over it.

>>3298770

This pic gives me an annyurism like every half-assed criticism against capitalism. The reason why all that bread is in the trash is because of stringent laws stating that businesses cannot give away expired food

>>3294374
Lack of regulations on those in control and overabundance of regulations of the governed.