Since when Liberalism and Leftism began to set a strong foothold

boring /pol/ topic

>>3237385
>le /pol/ bogeyman

>>3237378
classical liberalism in 1780s but accelerated after french revolution in 1789. leftism didn't make any real political gains till the early 1880s but it existed as far back as the french revolution, again.

>>3237419
What OP was really looking for was something along the lines of 'giving roasties the vote'.

>>3237378
Liberalism is part of leftism and both had been steadily rising in Europe since medieval.

>Liberalism
Ever since Anglos became relevant

>Leftism
Napoleon

>>3237378
Colonisation and early capitalism.

>>3237378
It happened slowly after the industrial revolution but ramped up after wwi and fucking skyrocketed after wwii

>>3237378
>Leftism
>strong foothold in Western Society?

>>3237430
>Liberalism is part of leftism
Liberalism, at least in America, is center right.

>>3237385
>Politics in my history, How could it be?

t. centrist fag

>>3238175
>center
>relevant

>>3238183
>>3238186
Fuck off retard, the center is where the vast majority of politics are done, including the liberals in every sense of the word

>>3238175
>Liberalism, at least in America, is center right.
By the original definition, liberals sat on the left side.

Also USA is literally "liberalism the country". All of acceptable American politics are just flavours of liberalism.

>>3237419
In America it was a little before that but I don't know if we were considered "western" until we became more prominent

When did the term western even start being used?

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>>3238223
>muh middle ground makes me immune to the critic brainlet, hahaha both sides are bad except mine.

keep telling you this bullshit, centrist fag. pick a side and have the balls to defend it.

>>3237419
>classical liberalism

Nice meme

>>3238248
Actually I'm a lib socialist you utter retard.

>>3238252
Huh?
Most liberalism is classical liberalism, then you have neoliberalism and American "liberalism"

>>3238255
>lib-something

Moderate fag

>>3238262
>libertarian socialism
>moderate
Wew lad

>>3237378
Liberalism can be right wing or even center, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting freedom.

>>3238266
There is something wrong with comparing liberalism to freedom

>>3238259
liberalism is a right wing position

>>3238264
Sorry my subversive friend, but you are just gulag fodder.

>>3238259
Not him, but it doesn't make sense to say "classical liberalism" when talking about liberalism in 18th century.

>Most liberalism is classical liberalism, then you have neoliberalism and American "liberalism"
No, not really. Most of liberals nowadays have merged into either with socdem creating modern liberals or with conservatives creating neoliberals.

>>3238271
I know, unless you consider the American mass media propaganda's "liberalism"(progressivism) then it is center. Still an economically right wing position but the meaning as been so far obfuscated to the people using this word that they actually believe progressivism is left wing.

>>3238271
>liberalism is a right wing position
Both the Left and Right memes originated from Classical Liberalism.

You can only escape that polarized reality if you're into theocracies or old Monarchies (read: non nation-cucked monarchies)

>>3238271
Not in Iran, Russia, Saudia Arabia and plenty other authoritarian states as well as in most of Europe until 19th century.

>>3237378
Man, cars ruined aesthetics so much

>>3238279
Liberalism is a right wing position because support the capital and private property of the means of production, it doesn't matter if is progressive or not.

>>3238282
>what is class struggle?

>>3238339
A spook for underachievers.

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>>3238186

>>3238325
>cars ruined the aesthetic of mud, horse shit, and dead horses in the street

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>>3238356
class is selfinterest, spooky friend

>>3238368
>trigger both sides
>relevant

>>3237378
After the Enlightenment era.

The rise of science called for liberalisation of the old traditional strongholds.

>>3238335
I know, I was trying to explain the way Americans think.

>>3238414
more like the rise of capitalism over feudalism

>>3238382
>"state rests on the slavery of labor. If labor becomes free the state is lost"

nigga what. Slavery is free labor already

>>3238429
>Slavery is free labor already

for the bourgeoisie of course

>>3238255
>Is a lib socialist
>Calls people retards.

>>3238271
False.

>>3238271
Considering Europe and the us are moving to the right that is no longer true.

>>3238279
>progressivism
In the US it is practiced by next Marxist college kid types.

>>3238434
the bourgeoisie equally get screwed over by elites in society.

>>3238448
Nice argument, see this >>3238335

>>3238465
>those poor bourgeoisie get bully for those evil "not bourgeoisie" elite.

Capitalism is cannibalism man, they fuck each other for the dominion of capital.

>>3238422
Thats economic liberalization.

Social liberalization happend around the time of Enlightenment.

>>3238523
>Social liberalization

for the bourgeoisie, in the while proletariat get exploited for them.

>>3238516
Gotta disagree with you there. Capitalism itself isn't bad, people are. History is pretty much full of people fucking other people over for dominion over something. the whole muh bourgeoisie is such a great way to stop both classes from getting together and removing those who have amassed vast fortunes from fucking people over.

Why liberalism is synonymous with left-wing in USA?

>>3238658
>Capitalism itself isn't bad.

I disagree with you, capitalism perpetuate the exploitation of the proletariat through wage slavery. History was always immersed in the class struggle surrounding for the control of the means of production (land, machines, capital) those who own them vs those who not have them. Any middle ground position in this class struggle is just a effort from the elite class (the bourgeoisie in this time) to perpetuate their dominion over the workers class, breaking the class consciousness and slowing the revolutionary process.

>>3237378
>liberalism
The enlightenment

>leftism
define what you mean...

>>3238266
social-democracy is a form of liberalism too.

>>3238755
Socdem is just capitalism with human face

>>3238460
Not really, it's practice by people who are smart enough to now how dangerous "conservatism" is but are too stupid to be aware of better options.
The next Marxist college types usually identify as "democraticic socialists, or soc dems" usually without any coherent ideaology aswell. They are the types who thought Bernie sanders was the next Jesus and not just the best out of a bad situation. Hardly any of these people are truly Informed, most don't know what socialism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, progressive, etc even mean. As the media and is education doesn't give them meaning, just labels and illusory boundaries. These are just disenfranchised people in a feeble attempt to get their government to work correctly.

>>3238443
Okay genius, give me some rational criticisms of lib soc

>>3238277
>Most of liberals nowadays have merged into either with socdem creating modern liberals
Not really, modern day liberals are just new dealer progressives that got cucked by corporate power. Some of them with more libertarian leanings have taking up calling themselves soc dems(like the nordics) but in actuality they are pretty far of from social democracy.
Modern liberals became modern liberals when conservative public relations took to calling all of the social left liberals to give people that hate abortion a common enemy to rally behind, and started calling themselves conservative(far off from traditional conservatives) to give them a group identity. It's all been manufactured.
Just a natural consequence of corporations controlling all of the media.

>>3237378
Since 1960s.

Left is from the french revolution as in the national assembly the reactionaries, strong catholics and monarchists sat in the right wing of the assembly and the revolutionaries, liberals and reformers sat in the left wing.

>>3237378
>Leftism
>Gaining anything since the Red Scare
Call me when the IWW is a force to be reckon with

>>3237430
>Liberalism is part of leftism and both had been steadily rising in Europe since medieval.

True, but that's because of the conflicting nature self-interest has in regards to one's own individual choice of happiness.


Notice how liberalism never really took a hold in the eastern Roman world, and instead relations were kept as being an important part of life, rather than personal gain and self-interest. We are also talking about two completely opposite modes of viewing and managing our actions for the sake of our existence. One if male-orientated, the other is female-orientated

>>3238727
>slowing the revolutionary process
Thank fucking god.

The next time I want to kill or be killed over someone else's cause, so that my country can eventually peter out to the same shit it always was, I'll call.

>>3239084
>Notice how liberalism never really took a hold in the eastern Roman world
It certainly did in Greece. In Eastern and East-Yugoslavic world whatever foothold it got, got crushed by Communism. Probably has something to do with capitalism and urban way of life.

>One if male-orientated, the other is female-orientated
Yet liberalism and feminism are quite correlated. Makes me think the gender dimension might not be so important.

>>3239329
Technically Liberalism only exist in America now

>>3239329
I see absolutely nothing in Greece that hints to it having links in liberalism. Maybe it's because you're projecting the renaissance concept of the individual that the greeks had onto the past, because greeks didn't idealize man as an individual, but as an ideal who's characteristics are meant to serve himself better in relation to the Polis

>In Eastern and East-Yugoslavic world whatever foothold it got, got crushed by Communism.

You're confusing critical thinking with individualism, which are not mutually inclusive.

>Yet liberalism and feminism are quite correlated

Because the first seeks that the individual to govern his self for himself, the other wishes to govern the self for the better of the group.

>>3238727

Ah yes the simplistic Marxist interpretation of history. Society is a pyramid not a complex organism in which various institutions act upon one another. Social contract doesn't exist in which people come together for mutual cooperation, no someone is always being exploited.

>>3239366
>I see absolutely nothing in Greece that hints to it having links in liberalism.
>Greece is western-styles parliamentary representative democratic republic
hmmm....I think you should look again.

>You're confusing critical thinking with individualism
How would that be even possible?

>Liberalism seeks that the individual to govern his self for himself
OK

>Feminism wishes to govern the self for the better of the group.
??? I'm fairly certain feminism was all about granting rights to individuals rich in estrogen and later to secure their equal status in society.

>>3238818
That's very American-centric perception. Doesn't make much sense outside of it.

>>3239489
Look at what? You seem to think that the humanitarian principles of liberalism has anything to do with a political system. Greeks had a democracy, but it did so without liberalism. That's an alien concept to the ancients

>How would that be even possible?

Protip; You can still think critically without asserting yourself as the primal force in the universe and that your interests come before anything else.

>>3239489
> I'm fairly certain feminism was all about granting rights to individuals rich in estrogen and later to secure their equal status in society.

The feminine rational is egalitarian by its very nature, because females of all beings knows the true way of how all beings relate to each other through emotion, and how everything is nothing but a deep desire for power, dominance, and status, which is why all of the aspects which creates and both preserve civilization is rooted in the feminine understanding of continuation and why that is integral part of existence itself.

There's a reason eastern orthodox countries don't have these massive feminist rallies like the west, or why this ideology doesn't make sense, because they have already inherited a female-group-think rationale, where the woman has a bigger role in the lives of the community, than say in the US, and where equality is ensured in this sense. But the feminists from the West have all the right to seek equal status, because the opposite to this is the individualist, patriarchal structure which created capitalism and oppression

>>3238443
>centrism is BAAAD
>libruls are BAAAD
well gee whats left
>agreeing with me and my meme ideology
kids these days with their mspaint doodles

>>3237378
Liberalism during the enlightenment and the French revolution, modern leftism is the natural evolution of said liberalism.

>>3239624
>Greeks had a democracy
Hellenic Republic IS a goddamn democracy with ideals of liberalism all over it's constituion

>Protip; You can still think critically without asserting yourself as the primal force in the universe and that your interests come before anything else.
Protip, how's that relevant to totalitarian ascpects of communism in Eastern Europe?

>There's a reason eastern orthodox countries...
Are You orthodox? Slavic or Greek?

>>3239401
>shits on simplistic interpretations
>says shit like "Social contract ... in which people come together for mutual cooperation"

yeah that's totally not a gross simplification that doesn't recognize the fact that humans need food, drink and shelter to FUCKING SURVIVE and that when you're forced to pay for these basic necessities (basic as in I WILL DIE IF I DON'T GET THEM) by renting out your body and/or mind maybe the whole "people come together for mutual cooperation" isn't as peachy as it sounds in that sterile sentence

>>3239649
You have a poor understanding of what the liberal and it's predecessor's philosophy was to grasp the full meaning of what i'm referring to. Liberalism is a set of ideals and principles which are centered around the individual and thus created the socio-economic system of today called capitalism. One couldn't had succeeded with the other in fact. Democracy on the other hand existed for a long time and was working fine as a means for a collective to govern itself collectively. After all, democracy itself was a means to get rid of the power that the elites had, and create a more decentralized egalitarian society in political affairs

>Protip, how's that relevant to totalitarian ascpects of communism in Eastern Europe?

I never said anything about totalitarism or communism.

>Are You orthodox? Slavic or Greek?
Orthodox,neither

Liberalism is Western society. There is no "West" outside of liberalism.

Everything you cherish and claim to defend was a creation of the Enlightenment and of the Atlantic Revolutions. Traditional Christian society was as alien to our contemporary values as Islam or the Chinese civilization.

The earliest roots I've seen in writing were in Plato, so at least as far back as the first half of the fourth century BC
thinking of the republic, Plato wrote of society as an organism within which the health and prosperity of each part enhanced the health and prosperity of the whole
And only education can give one citizen of the republic superiority over another, not birth

Liberalism and leftism are the latest stages in the march of humanism forward through all of western history.

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>>3238658
>History is pretty much full of people fucking other people over for dominion over something.

Not all of history is like that, you know. There were some past societies that never even created weapons for killing someone, let alone know the concept of war.

Indeed the history of people fucking other people for domination is long, but an ideology that is designed to perpetuate it is wrong.

>>3239401
>>3239271
>t. the reactionary "historiator".

You can stop the revolutionary process forever, in the end the firece competition in capitalism will always result in relative immiseration; those who are least ruthless on the market will lose, and especially those who do not have private property will always be last in line.

>>3239707
>There were some past societies that never even created weapons for killing someone, let alone know the concept of war.
jesus christ that can't be true

>>3238727
do you want to know why you sound like a completely indoctrinated zealot?

>>3239769
The cure to the problems of capitalism is social democracy.

All will hail Keynes as their savior.

You will be assimilated.

>>3239769
do you have any idea how dead communism is?
It will literally. never. happen.

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>>3239868
>>3239856
>>3239863
The future is red and you can't stop it.

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>>3239863

>>3239877
>FREE STUFF FOR EVERYBODY!!
>NEVER WORK JUST FUN AND PARTY ALL DAY
>CAPITALISM IS EVIL CONSPIRACY!!
>THING WILL BE EXACTLY AS WE ENVISION, BECAUSE WE SAY SOO!
I should stop expecting more than a infantile and oversimplified worldview from commie memes.

People act like what we today call "Left/Liberal" and "Right/Conservative" are eternal categories that can be flawlessly applied to all times and places. The fact is what we call left and right are definitions created by people under and to explain certain kinds of industrialized societies. It's foolish to argue that past figures like say the American Founding Fathers would fit the modern definition of Liberal or Communist or Fascist or Conservative or Centrist because the context of the time and its beliefs was so radically different.

>>3238758
go to bed zizek

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>>3239845

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>>3240020
Nope

>>3239691
>You have a poor understanding of what the liberal
I'm fairly sure I do have a decent one, your obfuscating makes me wonder if you do. In the first paragraph you were just throwing around (sometimes incorrect) definitions and observation, without providing basis for your claim that "there is absolutely nothing in Greece that hints to it having links in liberalism".

>I never said anything about totalitarism or communism.
I did.

>neither
Ethiopea, then?

>>3240089
I thought you were referring to the ancient greeks, now that i re-read it, my bad.

The Crucifixion of Jesus

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>talking about "Leftism", "Centrism"...as if they actually meant something
>unironically believing in the Left-Right dichotomy

This should be a bannable offense.

>>3237378
all I can think whence eyeing this pic is
>LOOK DOWN LOOK DOWN, UPON YOUR FELLOW MAN

>>3238252
why? liberal is used as an epithet in america nowadays for the """"leftist"""" democratic party. it has nothing to do with the original 19th century and early 20th century usage, as i see it

>>3238247
When Western Europe became ascendant over the rest of the world, I'm guessing, so mid 19th to late 19th century i'm guessing

>>3237378
During the 60's probably.

>>3237378
Question: are you a retarded burger who thinks liberalism is a synonime of left rather than right?

If so, it doesn't and your country's politcal divide is just right vs some other kind of right. You have no idea of the true meaning of political left.
Many of the the economic policies implemented by Republicans, like protectionism for instance, would be considered as such of the left in, say, Latin America.

>>3243406
Question: are you a retard?
Because you bumped this shit politics thread just so people had a chance to see your """input""" which consists of nothing more that pretending an obvious ESL poster is a yank just so you can do some hackneyed moaning about the American political spectrum. Kill yourself.

>>3243444
Alright you got me there...
What I said still olds up, though. Stupid Americans