Why did Europe never develop and sustain a martial arts tradition

>>3229796
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing

>>3229796

It did. European martial arts were very highly developed, but they died out during the age of the gun.

>>3229796

Because they had guns

You just don't need to codify the art of killing someone with a pitchfork or a plank with a nail in it.

Wrestling
Fencing
Boxing

>>3229796
>implying sword fighting isn't a martial art
Entire manuscripts have been written detailing the traditions and reason I behind various sword techniques.

>>3229796
Boxing is a martial art, so is wrestling.

>>3229796
Here, over 2500 manuals on European martial arts, from unarmed wrestling to jousting in full plate.
http://www.middleages.hu/english/martialarts/treatise_database.php
Now go try to focus your chi shrimpdick.

>>3229901
Some people feel that both the historial European arts and living asian arts are worth respecting.

But you know, that might have something to do with taking the time to learn them and learn about them.

>>3229802
>highly developed
>left no records
>died out
What did they mean by this?

>>3229796
New to the thread, but I have a somewhat alternate question.

As far as my (limited) knowledge goes, Eruopean martial arts were very focused on fighting, with little to no other outside references to them. If you were good at stabbing someone with a spear, you were good at stabbing them with a spear, and you wouldn't try to draw more esoteric conclusions about a practitioner's personality, religious beliefs, etc. from his skill with a weapon or in unarmed fighting.

Eastern Asian systems, at least the ones that have survived in the public eye in the modern day, seem to all be ones that combined some kind of fighting system with some sort of religious or mystical or magical belief structure, which is why you have things like isolated monastaries and the like being the training grounds for them, and storied tales of old masters flying around or possessing power over the supernatural world that you don't really see so much in Europe.

Why the divergence?

>>3229940
there are a shit ton of treatises on fighting from the medieval to the early modern age. just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they dont exist

>>3229939
We had that discussion often in /asp/ before mandrama killed the board. General consensus was that, safe for Sanda, all Chinese "martial" arts are folk dancing at best and have no use in a fight. This goes for armed and unarmed as well.
This in somewhat stark contrast to Japanese traditions where lots of stuff is still relevant
>culture revolution is a bitch, baby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOXGQ0MqP0
>chinese martial art

>>3229999
Well I was there and I was never a fan of /asp/s conclusions, which were based more on familiarity with various modern martial sports and the various mcdojo style CMA, rather than a practical or historical familiarity with Chinese styles.

>>3230023
>reality does not fit my fantasy
Yeah, I think I remember you, lots of laughs we had because of you, good times.

>>3230055
Its been awhile but as I recall, incredulity is not a valid debunking of the work of decades of martial arts researchers and hoplologists

File: yeahsure.gif (325KB, 300x228px) Image search: [Google]

325KB, 300x228px

>>3230069
>incredulity
Chinese MMA fails every single time it is tested. They got something that works like charm and that is Sanda which is a modern full contact style.
Now I am all for nostalgia, but afair you are one of the great sperglords of this chan, you debate for endless threads witht he same circular arguing and you never ever present a single source. Ever.

>>3230069
>martial arts researchers and hoplologists
Like somebody that is ignorant enough to imply Europe never had a martial arts tradition? Yeah, right...

>>3229796
Because we trusted our swords, armor and God/Jesus.

>>3230087
>Like somebody that is ignorant enough to imply Europe never had a martial arts tradition? Yeah, right...

what are you talking about? I never said that. Ive always respected Hema.

>Chinese MMA fails every single time it is tested.

I have lots of problems with modern CMA, including the fact that so many of them are uninterested in fighting. I am not so much offended by the dismissal of so much of what passes for CMA as the dismissal of everything in that umbrella save sanda

File: thehipsandelbows.jpg (255KB, 901x1200px) Image search: [Google]

255KB, 901x1200px

>>3230098
I don't want to disappoint you sonny, but all base of combat is wrestling. Wrestling had a huge tradition in Europe, guys like Master Ott or Fabian Auerswald were famous.

File: fabian.jpg (43KB, 412x444px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 412x444px

>>3230100
>I never said that. I
read your thread title again you dumbfuck.

>>3229796
Because they were allowed weapons, you twit.

>>3230127
I'm not the guy who started the thread, nor do I hold OP up as some kind of authority on the martial arts.

He certainly has nothing to do with anything I argued years ago on /asp/ If I am even the person you are thinking of which at this point I am starting to doubt.

File: auerswald_30_large.jpg (31KB, 332x306px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 332x306px

>>3230147
>I am not OP
>I am not the legendary cma sperglord from /asp/

>>3229796
>tradition and system
Because european never bothered mixing up bullshit esoterism with their martial arts, so instead of traditional katas, secret techniques and other bullshit they had a constantly evolving science adapting itself around period weaponry and the amount of lethality accepted by society, without obnoxious trappings like schools and teaching lineages that mean nothing. It's no coincidence that the single best eastern martial art, muay thai, pretty much follows to the letter the western approach (tho it started on that path independently of western influences).

>>3230170
Well, I am not. I have some interest in CMA's history, particularly its influence on karate and jujutsu and know people who do CMA and I do pick their brains on occasion, but I dont do it myself.

>>3229796
Dueling did eventually become fashionable for the middle-class (Marx dueled a lot), but otherwise boxing I guess.

>>3229955
>Why the divergence?
I think it has lots to do with the differences between christianity and eastern religions.
Christianity just lacks (and pretty much abhors) the kind of physical mysticism like ki and similar bullshit that plagues eastern religions.

>>3230180
One of the oldest Hema manuals begins with a magic spell. They also had, at times very stringent requirements to become a "master" and two man drills (kata) were the primary method of teaching European swordsmanship until the 19th century.

File: 2LgThibault.jpg (3MB, 3000x2097px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 3000x2097px

>>3230180
>Because european never bothered mixing up bullshit esoterism with their martial arts,
We had quite a bit of those esoteric stuff, also katas, in the form of rhymes where common before the printing press.

File: 1500516558227.jpg (17KB, 600x338px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 600x338px

>>3229955
Probably because the samurai spent the majority of their existence as poets in charge of an industralized world, seeking to explain their continued existence in a world without the Sengoku Jidai and a Japanese empire to focus their violent energy towards serving.

I have a suspicion that it has something to do with zen buddhism's mix of mahayana beliefs about enlightenment and Bodhisattvas and taoism's general mystic weirdness.
Folk versions of the religion lend themselves to the belief that it's possible to become superhuman through meditation and enlightenment and shit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery

>>3230180
>schools and teaching lineages that mean nothing
You are so wrong mon ami, they meant a great big deal in old Europe, up and including mass duels between schools.
To be honest, pretty much everything in your post is just plain wrong. Sorry.

File: tennen rishin ryu gekiken cross training.jpg (124KB, 1478x1108px) Image search: [Google]

124KB, 1478x1108px

>>3230200
Edo period martial arts were often far less esoteric than their Segoku counterparts, and by the end of the period "practical" methods were preferred. (pic related)

The eastern systems that survive in the public eye actually tend to be modern syncretic versions of older arts, and represent only a small portion of surviving fighting arts

>>3229796
>outside of the aristocracy
I can't even think of a renowned western martial artist belonging to the aristocracy. All the guys who wrote treatises were basically mercs and middle class teachers.

>>3229955
Fighting and killing is a worldly matter, and as such has no place behind monastery walls in Christian tradition.
Apart from that, there was a good part of mysticism and esoteric involved in the martial arts. Like numeral magic and geometry in rapier, or manuals that teach you to define your or your opponents fighting type by zodiac signs and the like.

>>3230217
Ludwig von Eyb (1450 - 1521)
But your right, most masters where not of the nobility. Lot's of them got raised to nobility though.

>>3229796
uuOOOOOOO YAAAAHHHHHHH *chops board in half*

File: Nicolaes_Petter.png (77KB, 250x209px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 250x209px

>>3230113
>Master Ott
>Fabian Auerswald
>not Nicholas Petter
This dude's wrestling book was reprinted for 150 years or so, how awesome is that!?

>>3229802
>but they died out during the age of the gun
So the second half of the 19th century?

File: auerswald_21_large.jpg (48KB, 343x392px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 343x392px

>>3230268
It is VON Auerswald for you Mr. Petter!
Thats right, they raised him because he was so great at wrestling!
>and his book is still in print.

>>3230282
Some forms of military saber fencing lasted until WW1, but machine guns kill all the fun.

>>3230294
Well Von Auerswald's book definitely has the advantage of having fantastic images by freakin' Lucas Cranach, so that's something... It got published only once though, then a second time 300 years later, I wasn't counting recent re-publication, Petter also got one, but that's cheating. Petter was more or less continuously published for 150 years or so. There's probably like only 3-5 other HEMA treatises that can say the same.

>>3230268
>Nicholas Petter
It's Nicolaes or Claas if you like.

>>3229796
Go look at HEMA, historical european martial arts. It's over /asp

>>3229955
The East Asian understood the mental component to fighting. So they have made a mental regiment to complement their physical training.

In fact I'd so far to say its due to Buddhist understanding of the mental aspects that these things developed more so in the east. Buddhist has a tree different teachings, also known as Tripitaka (three baskets). The teachings of monastic codes, the sayings of Buddha, and the metaphysics/abhidhamma. This is fundamental to all Buddhist schools as far as I know. Each buddhist school emphasises different aspects with bit different takes but the bulk of Abhidhamma/Metaphysics has great insight into the mental components of a human mind.

So why East Asians deal with mental aspects is probably due to Buddhism.

>>3230016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0t166flodQ

>>3232112
Yes, thats a Sanda fighter dressed up as a shaolin monk. As mentioned modern chinese kickboxing is excellent. He uses the modern competitive style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

>>3230200
Yah, nips are gay