I notice that "redlining" is a big theme/bugbear in

So your premise is that redlining is supposed to have caused violence in urban Black communities?

>>3209170
why are black people stuck in the past

why cant they march forward

thinking backwards

Tbh anyone that wants reperations can blow me. If anybody deserve it, it's the natives, and even then they can blow me. I am in no way responsible for the treatment of your ancestors and if you think that you deserve my tax dollars then fuck you.

>>3209200
Their ethnogenesis was less than 400 years ago, and like 350 of those years involved active oppression.

>>3209195
Historians and sociologists seem to presume that redlining had a very large and negative social impact. My complaint is that they tend to be very fuzzy about the nature of this impact, or how exactly the impacts supposedly follow from redlining per se.

>>3209221
Pretty much this, we are all in this shit from what our ancestors did. Why the fuck do we, living now have to pay money when they don't have to work, get job easier when they want to and get paid to go to school but still dont?

t. Australian.

>>3209226
"Oppression" is another fuzzy, ill-defined word that doesn't seem very meaningful in most of these discussions. It's the same issue - the reader is supposed to assume that X caused Y, but the mechanisms behind this are poorly-explained or explored.

>>3209232
I think the idea is that they were prevented from "leaving the ghetto" and assimilating into white society.

>>3209170
>descriptions of "redlining" do not explain why limiting home-buyers to specific geographic areas would therefore lead to mass-violence and other woes.
Because it's common sense you retard
>Be slightly better off negro
>Want to move out away from the poor niggers
>Not allowed to
>Poor niggers steal from you
>Back to square one

> China has an entire system of residency permits to prevent rural peasants from flooding too quickly into larger cities, for example
"Permit" sounds like if you have enough money you can circumvent it. No matter how rich a nigger is they wouldn't be allowed to move into wealthier areas. Different.
>In a country like Malaysia, ethnic housing segregation is common and expected - this does not seem to lead to gangsterism.
Depends on how voluntary it is. Needs to be explained further.
For example, the caste system in India works and causes little strife because even the lowest caste members accept it.

>>3209241
Are "chattel slavery" and "voter disenfranchisement" too fuzzy?

>>3209241
>"Oppression" is another fuzzy, ill-defined word that doesn't seem very meaningful in most of these discussions.
Holy shit you're retarded
>If I pretend slavery and the subsequent oppression that followed wasn't a big deal that means it's inconsequential!

And then you wonder why people are listening to the liberals over you. At least the liberals aren't dismissive towards objective suffering and have a sense of empathy.

>>3209257
This is a common reaction when writers are asked to specify which mechanisms caused which social outcomes and how. Sputtering rage and ad hominem attacks.

The problem is, the things defined as "oppression" have been experienced by a range of population groups in many different areas in many different periods of time, with wildly-varying outcomes.

You need more than just the existence of a particular event at point X to explain, causually, the existence of some phenomenon at a later point Y.

There is a lack of academic rigor. You can't just presume your own conclusions; that is the actual definition of "begging the question."

>>3209294
Funny how you got BTFO by >>3209250 and ignored the post and grasped at the lower fruit.
>the things defined as "oppression" have been experienced by a range of population groups in many different areas in many different periods of time, with wildly-varying outcomes.
I guess government killing dissenters is okay because it's happened to other people so don't complain about it.
>There is a lack of academic rigor.
You are a dumb autistic piece of shit lol

>>3209245
"Redlining" would explain something like the ethnic composition of an area, because the redlining policy would have the effect of concentrating a particular group into that area. It would not explain the conditions within the area.

>>3209250
Fuzzy for explaining current observed social conditions? Of course. That's trivially demonstrated by looking around the world. There are many populations without voting rights and with a history of slavery which lack various pathologies observed in American ghettos.

This is what I mean by "presuming your own conclusion." You begin with the premise that X MUST be causing Y, without explaining how. Saying that "X existed" is not a causal argument at all - you need a causal mechanism for that.

>>3209307
This is just a straight-up non sequitur. You may need a broader education in argumentation and rhetoric to follow the discussion.

>>3209313
> It would not explain the conditions within the area.
It does have an amount of explanatory effect
"Why is everyone in this area poor?"
"Because if they are poor they put into this area"

>>3209200
Everytime they try society just smacks them backwards. Your question is the equivalent of telling someone to stand up after you push them down only to push them down again. Gotta know when you will stop fucking with them.

>>3209588
To elaborate on this
>B-but Obama!
Proves america still hates black people. Obama is not black. His ancestors were not american slaves. Hell, his white mothers ancestors were probably in the country less time than most black americans. He is a half breed AFRICAN.
Americans would rather have some lightskin halfbreed that's the product of UNAMERICAN FOREIGNERS as their leader than a genuine american negro with an intimate connection with the countries history.
It says a lot about race relations that what is effectively a foreigner has a better chance at the presidency than an American if the American in question is black.

Obama is not black any more than "Asian" immigrants are British.

>>3209588
The problem with this line of argument is that you need some kind of connection/mechanism between (for example) something that "society" does, and specific actions that make ghetto areas terrible, like young men choosing to shoot each other en masse. Those connections are simply presumed - they are not explained.

>>3209643
What I don't get is that if you're oppressed for hundreds of years, enslaved and relegated to living in ghettos where it appears that you and your children will most likely stay but still have some sort of freedom of movement, why not just leave and find another way somewhere else? Thats what my Arab Christian neighbors had to do

>>3209658
Poor people are susceptible to crime. Black people are poor as fuck. They're usually in poverty because of the various laws and societal stigmatization the government and majority put in place (sometimes to intentionally to put them there).

Black people are trying to make their economic situation better but those systems that fucked them over the first time tend to get implemented even now, and they use your "why aren't black making themselves better?" arguments to justify them, so like I said.

>stand up
>push down
>stand up

You got to stop causing problems and be patient if you want them get back on their feet.

>>3209170
>Ta-Nehisi
>our ancestors
Imblying xDD

>>3209239
If anything the UK owes convict descendants reparations for the cruel, disproportionate punishment of transportation.

gibsmedat
t. Australian

>>3209678
>and they use your "why aren't black making themselves better?" arguments to justify them,
This.
Like if a black person decides "shit I don't want to live around all these dumb niggers anymore" and moves to a white neighborhood, property values "somehow" go down, the white people move out, and poor niggers move in thanks to the reduced cost.
Black people try to improve but white people treat those black people as if they are the same as the underachiever blacks and punish them for it.
It's gotten better over the years but these things take time.

>>3209678
They're actually quite wealthy by global standards. If we could stop at "poverty = crime," we would expect countries like Bangladesh to be pits of murder and violence. For the most part, they are not. By all available indicators, the murder rate in Bangladesh is probably 25-30 times lower than in a much wealthier American ghetto.

Causal explanations have to be consistent with what we observe around the world and across time, not just what we observe at one point in time in one nation like the US.

>>3209245
>sounds like
>Different.

kys

>>3209706
"Permit" implies that if you have money you can buy it.
That's entirely different from "It doesn't matter how much money you have, you can't do this"
The latter of which happened to black people.

>descendants of american slaves have a better standard of living than the descendants of the Africans who sold their ancestors in the first place

Black Americans are the wealthiest african ethnic group in the world do to decades of welfare, infrastructure, and good american jobs, they need to fuck off with this gibs shit, they got more than they deserved.

>>3209716
Only because economics.
No matter how racist you are you can't justify charging blacks African prices for what Africans would have to import to black people living right next to you.
> they got more than they deserved.
Which is?

>>3209712
Again, that doesn't explain conditions WITHIN redlined areas. It only explains ethnic compositions. Many different groups have been sequestered to defined areas within larger societies, from the Jewish shtetls to Chinese enclaves in Indonesia.

The act of sequestration itself explains very little in terms of the conditions within the sequestered area.

>>3209725
>Again, that doesn't explain conditions WITHIN redlined areas.
Yes it does.
Blacks are poor descendants of slaves. Black people live in area X. Area X is poor. This isn't hard.
>Jews
Funny you mention them because a similar situation is responsible for their success. Only Jews allowed to lend money. Lending money gets you wealthy. Jews become wealthy.
Can you explain why Jews are so wealthy?

>>3209724
>Which is?

Not getting sent back to Africa right after the Civil War

>>3209221
>>3209239

Hmmm, something smells like privilege.

>>3209740
That doesn't explain much of anything. Many people today are from former slave populations. Russia had serfdom until the 1860's and various forms of servitude into the Soviet era.

The question is, what occurred in the presence of "redlining" which would have occurred if there had never been redlining policies? The kneejerk response from historians is to draw an assumed link between redlining and modern pathologies.

But as we see here, that causality is simply not explained very well. Instead, we end up with chains of assumptions, but not a lot of actual hard evidence to create robust causal links between one event and the next.

People seem to be beginning with their conclusion, and then search for evidence to support that conclusion. The problem is, if we begin "naively" (ie, without any conclusion in mind), the evidence doesn't seem to lead us down any particularly robust causal pathway between redlining and social conditions in 2017.

There is a lot of "special pleading" going on, but not a lot of examination of premises and first principles to see whether or not they actually hold up.

>>3209803
To be more specific, here are some linkages that seem poorly-documented to me:

1. The notion that redlining led to poverty which would not have existed in the absence of redlining

2. The notion that this poverty necessarily led to violence.

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Blacks get into medical school 80% of the time with a 3.5 GPA while whites are only admitted 69% of the time even with a 4.0. This is sort of thing is true across all levels of college.
~They are already getting reparations~
What do you want? If we gave them money they'd all waste it.
I want to the same shitty public schools the blacks did. I studied, they didn't. They started fights, I didn't.
>ta-nehisi coates
>black man asking for gibs.
Fuck off

>>3209820
Red lining was wrong
It was also completely justified. Anyone who says other was just hasn't lived both around blacks and not around blacks to understand the difference. People want safe naighborhoods. And living around someone who is in a competent different social and Economic class with different values who sees you as the enemy doesn't work. And bussing is still ruining the schools, the ones bussed in don't see the school as a helper or a benefit, they see it as an enemy. They go there and trash it, steal anything they can, harrasess the students and teachers. Etc. and this is in the far north, where people are generally abimcile to blacks.
You can't fix black culture by tearing down 'white' society

>>3209701
poverty = crime

While it's a specific type of crime and not the best of analysis, I ran a shit ton of bi-variate analysis on a state by state basis using gun violence and socioeconomic factors during an ice storm. With the exception of the Gini coefficient (.6 correlation coefficient) , there wasn't much of a linear correlation between any of them, including states with high poverty rates or high average population density.

If the high poverty = high crime were true for violent crime, you would expect to see high gun crime in New Mexico, Alabama, and Mississippi to go along with Louisiana and Maryland. All I can guess at is that population density of the cities comes into play.

>>3210046
>different social and Economic class
Wouldn't housing prices alone have limited the lower limits on anyone, regardless of race, from a lower economic class moving into the neighborhood?

>>3209170
Redlining is the new gimmick for explaining nigger failure. First it was lead in water, now this... another delusional theory invented by the current popular nigger write TaNigger Coates.

[spoiler]NIGGER[/spoiler]

Does redlining explain this behavior?
http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1502154334269.webm
There is a reason the getho doesn't have nice things, like shops or jobs

>>3209799
Like I said, blow me.

>>3209643
His mom is directly descended from John Punch, the oldest slave in Anglo-America, and some of the oldest European colonists too, but your point still stands.

>>3210255
>spoiled tags on /his/
Can /tv/ cucks fuck off?

>>3210327
wtf i hate black ppl now???

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Repartitions might have Good intentions perhaps.
But it's not a solution to anything.
Lets say you gave each of these men $100,000 as reparations. Do you think it would change society for the better? It's completely dishonest to talk about "reparations" without talking about how little good it would do vs how much very bad it would do.
>>3210501
You don't have to hate black people to realize just mixing them in with whites isn't going to help them and yet is going to hurt the whites

>>3210248
Yes but people wanted the division written in stone so real estate lenders would try to guide you away form those areas, refuse to show them form you, mortgage lenders, mortgage lenders explicitly try to fuck you overs no matter what even if you are exactly like another white guy seeking a mortgage, credit cards, insurance etc. It also led to urban decay overtime as palces were redlined as being to risky and not worth the money.

>>3210451
It's better being a Black American outside of the U.S instead of inside it lol.

>>3209803

> Russia had serfdom until the 1860's and various forms of servitude into the Soviet era.

Right, but the Serfs were the majority of the population until they were freed. It's a lot harder to keep down a majority population than a minority population. Not to mention that serfs were still largely ethnic Russians, and a smart serf that crawled his way up can pass for a middle-upper class Russian. A runaway Serf can pass for an urban poor, a runaway black slave was easily identified, and free blacks were often re-enslaved. Lastly, although Serfs had it shit, they were still treated better than the Chattel slaves. Serfs had limited rights, were allowed to marry, and exercised certain rights within their household.

To my knowledge, the situation of the American Blacks, a formerly oppressed population that still constitutes a minority and is visually distinct (and therefore easier to discriminate against), is a unique one.

>>3209970

Huh, and Asians have an even harder time than Whites. I guess this means Whites are asking for gibs as well.

>>3210248
There is more to class than just money. And any decent city will have some lower cost housing for people in lower salary jobs (for their own peeps though)
Outside of the south, redlining wasn't nearly as long term as people pretend though.
It was definitely wrong but something had to be done and it might have been the least messy solution

>>3210600
What's your point?
65% percent of blacks get in with a ~3.2GPA
While only 9.4% of whites get in with a ~3.2 GPA, and 7.7% of Asians. It's less than 2% points, hardly statistically relevant

>>3210600
And in case someone doesn't know medical school is a prefect example of how you hurt someone else to help blacks.
medical school admission is HIGHLY competitive. the AMA functions like a medieval guild and artificially limits the amount of doctors to keep salarys high. Every doctor slot given to a 3.2 black is being taken from a another race with a higher GPA.
This next point doesn't apply to med school as such: the funny thing is a lot of affirmative action admissions to undergrad end up dropping out, when if they had just gone to a state school at their lvl their would likely have succeeded

>>3210660
The number of Black let in due to AA being a factor is completely negligable anon.

>>3210739
For example lets see the number

>65% percent of blacks get in with a ~3.2GPA

Seems like a lot until you actually see then number of Black in total which is minuscule as hell.

>>3210747
What do you want? They are only 12% of the population. if they can't get in with a 3.2 they are a fucking fuck up anyways

>>3209170
>Ta-Nehisi Coates
Discarded.

>>3209200
The culture they have created is a failure.

>>3209221
The sacrifices their ancestors made let them have the better lives they live today.

>>3209257
>And then you wonder why people are listening to the liberals over you. At least the liberals aren't dismissive towards objective suffering and have a sense of empathy.

That's the problem. Listening to the left exasperated their situation.

>>3209799
That's an excuse used for success and race envy

>>3209970
It's why I always only visit Asian doctors. They have been held to a higher standard.

>>3209643
Black people bring the hate on themselves.

>>3209785
Lol, build half of the fucking country without pay. But its Africans who should get sent home not the traitorous southcucks.

>>3211075
Lots of well thought out arguments their. Especially love your sources.

>>3211079
Maybe without all the jim crow, KKK, and redlining after the civil war they could would have just joined white culture like they wanted to

>>3211243

Yeah cause cotton is the reason why America is America.

>>3211243
Seeing as how African americans didnt stop being the countries cheap labor after slavery, and seeing how cotton was the countries most important export for years. I would stand by my point hyperbolic as it was.

>>3211243
>>3211292

We've practically paid them back in welfare

>>3211300
Except the root cause of welfare was the slave state followed by jim crow and so on and so on. But the people demand a lower class so the government has never done shit to really fix it. Because even if your a dirt poor white person atleast your are a nigger right?

>>3211312
The poorest white people (the stereotypical Appalachian hillbillies) generally live in areas without any black people, and from the history of those places, rarely appear to think of them at all.

>>3211243
>One Hundred fifty years ago X happened
>Please give me Y

>>3210228
If poverty = crime then why doesn't appalachia have absolutely absurd crime rates comparable to poor black regions. Lower IQ = crime, and they have naturally lower IQ.

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>it's another "it's wrong to be proud of the accomplishments of your ancestors but you should pay for their crimes, even if they weren't even your fucking ancestors" thread

Oh, goody!

>>3211243
>build half of the fucking country
so tired of this meme

>>3209799
Cunt, I live in a town with 30% youth unemployment. In a country with 10% as a whole unemployment, you want privilege go ask any aboriginal person what their privilege is like and how they misuse it.

My sincere thoughts are very /pol/-ish. They're also not controversial among experts, only among regular people.

>>3211494
>live under German hegemony for a thousand years
>be serf
>be slaughtered in countless rebellions
>that one successful one end up when turks show up and slaughter everyone instead
>turks proceed to rape, pillage and enslave for 200 years
>turks are finally defeated
>germs start and intense process of germanisation
>schooling in the native language forbidden
>finally get rid of the germans
>they come back 20 years later and in the span of 5 years, almost 10% of the population dies
>finally the war end
>communists fuck you for another 50 years
>finally freedom and democracy
>>THESE FUCKING PRIVILIGED WHITE SLAVE OWNING MALES
Why are reparations only a black thing?

>>3211622
>Why are reparations only a black thing?

War reparations boy

>>3211647
I'm not asking for war reparations, I'm asking for reparations for the oppression, slavery and discrimination inflicted upon my ancestors.


Read: I want free money for something that happened to some poor fuck a long time ago.

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>>3209820
>>3209803
>>3209725
>>3209701
>>3209658
>>3209324
>>3209294
>>3209241

Your posts are incredibly inspiring. It's very refreshing to see someone who approaches these hot topics through the lens of empirical evidence and relations between objects rather than just spouting nonsense and grasping at whatever is around to try to support their claims...
IE:
>>3209257
>>3209307
>>3209588
>>3209643
>>3209678
>>3209698
>>3211243

I study mathematics at the doctoral level and listening to all these clowns talk about how x,y,z,....cause the oppression of the blackman is incredibly frustrating.

What's worse is that when you try to enlightenment them on the logical, mathematical, fallacies that they commit, they resort to emotion and attacks, and if all else fails, you're simply over privileged so theres no way you could possibly understand.

Any way just wanted to say good work here.

>>3211386
Another guy here.
It is not poverty that causes crime but COMPERATIVE poverty.
You get a lot of poor people together they won't get criminal but put some well to do people close enough that they can see them and bam. Crime.

>>3211712
I really like getting a chance to post thelastpsych, thank you.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/03/the_source_of_societys_ills.html

>>3211622
Because only blacks are stupid enough to think they will ever happen

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>>3209170
if reparations became a thing, how would one determine who pays and who profits? Would it be a tax levied against all Americans that pays for a few? How is that few determined? Will they have to submit to a 23&Me? Isn't that overreach? Will the cost of the genetic testing be paid from the initial reparation fund?

>>3211712
Appalachians just do drugs/kill themselves or drown in misery. They are also rural so like you said, less opportunity for crime and targets (drug consumption and trade/trafficking)

>>3211746
Japanese American reparations.

We've already given niggers reparations 10x over in the form of welfare and other benefits, they can fuck right off.

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>>3211712
>You get a lot of poor people together they won't get criminal
but what about my hometown of Flint, Michigan. Are we an exception? There are two well-to-do suburbs to the far west and south, otherwise everything is about the same in every direction, then woods. None of the violent crime (literally a shooting every day, look it up, mlive.com/flint) takes place anywhere near those suburbs. In fact, they all take place in a few square miles known locally as "The North End"

>>3211755
Those were paid to the people who actually had property taken from them, not their descendants 200 years later.

>>3211787
You know a lot of fucked up bullshit went on in those 200 years?

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>>3211770
correction: an average of one shooting per day during he summer. It slows in the winter, although the scanner and the fbook report shots fired a few times a day, but those must have just hit cars/homes. Looks like our last good one was three days ago. things are lookin' up!

>when people keep correlating poverty with crime but ignore the bigger correlation between crime and low intelligence and especially between violent crime and low intelligence.
Pandora's box huh

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in all seriousness, who is going to determine who is "black enough" for reparations? Will it work like the native-americans and their funds? If there is to be a cutoff, I pity the soul who must tell these individuals that they don't qualify. As a person who grew up in a majority black city, that will NOT go over well. Better do it by phone or e-mail because they shoot mailmen, process servers, pizza delivery guys, etc. Then they'll likely turn on those in the community who did qualify... jesus, this is gonna be crazy. Maybe reparations will be fun!

>>3211851
Poverty leads to low intelligence leads to crime.
If you're starving then you're probably not going to a university.

>>3211869
intelligence is acquired at university?

>>3211872
The tangible economic benefits of intelligence is social mobility, no matter how high your IQ is, if you can't prove that you'd be good in a field, you're not going to be hired in that field, degrees are an indication that you know your shit.

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>>3211881
but what are the barriers to social mobility in the average US inner-city? If you fall below the poverty line, you are issued WIC and Bridge Card (EBT pretty much). We spent twice the national average per student in our public schooling sector. Then, once we were college bound, as most of us were from sketchy backgrounds, we had the normal federal grants + the Mott foundation and MEAP grants to attend one of the three local community colleges. Some of my friends used this as a springboard to major university. Most of these individuals came from rough backgrounds i.e. parents dead, parents addicted, parents in jail

>>3211869
Yes, yes, poverty leads to low intelligence which leads to crime. That's why poor whites score higher on IQ tests and commit less crime than literally better off blacks. This also begs the question why eastern European shitholes have lower crime rates than practically any black community in the US. In fact, many eastern european shitholes have lower crime rates than economically developed western Europe.


It's time to face the fact that intelligence is highly hereditary. If your parents were retards no amount of schooling or money will get you a 130 IQ score. Everyone ignores the elephant in the room though.

>If you're starving then you're probably not going to a university.
Blacks, for example, have one of the highest obesity rates in the US. They are certainly not starving.
Pandora's box.

>>3211251

Anyone who is actually campaigning for reparations is a fucking idiot.

>>3211869

But people who lack delayed gratification will probably fail to prioritize steps that don't involve immediate reward. Like studying or thinking about the future.

Blacks are poor because, as an average, they are unable to think into the future for the most part and they fucking lack self-awareness. A lot of them can't really visualize how other people seem them. They also have double the rate of schizophrenia. They also live in a government that enables the social apocalypse where 3/4ths of black children live in single parent homes.

But these stupid liberal motherfuckers would cry tears of self-righteous pity rather than examine the actual facts and organize working strategies around those facts.

>>3209170
Meh it doesn't just remain restricted to the inner cities but expands into the suburbs as well. It's how lower income ethnically diverse areas are separated from higher income localities. The problem is schools in particular which are payed for by everyone's tax dollars are effectively segregated in this very manner. Some solutions I'd propose would be to build more bridges across railroads into the more prosperous side of town or the county and send children of all kinds of neighborhoods to the same schools which may require building new facilities in a median location accessible to all. Also more important government buildings which people visit for all kinds of services should be situated within lower income or working class communities to avoid having the wealth always concentrated on the side in which downtown is located.

>>3212423

Just segregate them by sex. BAM. Fucking blacks don't peacock all the fucking time. Every race stops the stupid fucking peacocking for female attention and is able to concentrate.

>>3209170
>In a country like Malaysia, ethnic housing segregation is common and expected - this does not seem to lead to gangsterism.

Should we design western societies based on what muslim countries on the verge of radicalization do now? Is this what you want?

>>3212491
Realistically speaking Malayasia is split between Han Chinese and Muslim Malays. Neither are renowned for their
reasonability.

Lol

Niggers btfo in this thread

>>3212347
Or just acting in their own self-interest. If you could take advantage of the natural tendencies of another group (guilt, shame, etc.) to get free money, why not make an attempt? It might just work. The idiots are those in the target group who accede to such demands at their own expense.

>>3211900
Shit schools, trapped in dens of poverty neglected by the city, family issues,public ulities or buildings being far away, no public transportation.