Is there a single downside to worker ownership? I don't

>>3206889
would you let the passengers steer the ship?

>>3206889
Do you have a job? Do you think your colleagues should be allowed to make decisions that matter?

>>3206889
It already exists, it's called stocks. If you mean that ownership should be equally distributed and that the janitor should have equal importance in determining the future of the company as the founder and CEO, then you're clinically retarded.

>>3206891
if all the passengers were trained to be leaders, yes, anyone would be allowed to steer the ship

>>3206891
Wong analogy, the passengers are just the customers, the equivalent would be if it's the crew who owned the ship

We call those employee stock options

>>3206898
And who is going to pay them all to learn to be leaders?

>>3206905
let me rephrase, they should have the mindset of a leader and teach themselves. if you don't have the mindset of a leader, you shouldn't be a passenger

>>3206923
so what do you do with passengers who don't have the right mindset?
Throw them into the sea?

>>3206923
>if you don't have the mindset of a leader, you shouldn't be a passenger
Kek what? So if I want to board a plane I need to know how to pilot one?

Why are marxists such niggerbrains, holy Christ.

>>3206923
But I want to be a leader. That's unfair.

There's nothing (but the startup cost) preventing a collection of workers from running their own company

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>>3206927
make them useful somewhere else, pic related
>>3206932
>niggerbrains
>>>/pol/ is over there
>>3206938
then teach yourself and be one

>>3206957
>he's resorting to memes now
Kill yourself nigger cum slurping faggot.

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>yeeeeeeee hawwwwww due to the glorious poletariam revolution me and uh all of muh buddies decided to turn every factory in a fifty mile radius into a Budweiser brewery! yeeeeeeee hawwwwww all power to the people's soviets! we also voted to keep niggers and muslims out of our communities. Ecological concerns? What's that? yeeeeeeee hawwwwww that sounds like FAGGOT talk!

Socialism is for rural and suburban retards. Super high iq city people realize neoliberal managerialism is the only path to the future.

>>3206957
I can't. But I want to be a leader. How can I teach myself to be a leader if I don't have the knowledge to attain it?

Who will give me the preparation for the train stuff?

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>>3206961
unsurprisingly no argument from a stormnigger
>>>/pol/
nobody wants you here

>>3206923

But some are naturally better than the others

>>3206985
Sorry for triggering you sweetie. But /his/ isn't your personal safe space.

>>3206976
the state enforces public education for that knowledge, and those who don't attend shouldn't expect any support

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>>3206999

>>3207005
the leftypol meme brigade is here, it's time to abandon ship.

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>>3206963
>high iq city people realize neoliberal managerialism is the only path to the future.


Reminder that neo-liberal globalism is an unsustainable utopian meme. I dont give a shit about any dumbass stormfag conspiracy about jews or white genocide. This entire thing is predicated on the idea that an influx of immigrants will counter act the declining birth rates of the west, and fill in the gaps in our work force, which will save our economy, thus making it possible for the government to continue funding medicaid for paw paw. But the big fucking problem is that non of these faggots work. In fact, they not only just not work, they actually gobble up MORE government entitlements, only speeding up the decline. So now, we have even MORE people to take care of who dont work. So at the very core of this idea, its complete bullshit.

http://www.nationaleconomicseditorial.com/2017/02/19/german-economy-immigration/

>out of all the recent refugees to Germany, only 2% are employed

http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/fluechtling/nur-jeder-50te-findet-einen-job-43786808.bild.html

>2/3rds of them cant even read or write, making them basically worthless to the economy

http://www.zeit.de/2015/47/integration-fluechtlinge-schule-bildung-herausforderung

>Germany companies are saying how these refugees are unemployable retards as well

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/mittelstand-als-hoffnungstraeger-fuer-fluechtlinge-14323607.html

so of course, they are all on gbsmedats now

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-number-of-migrants-claiming-benefits-in-germany-surges-by-169-percent-2016-9


>Germany spent 20 BILLION euros on migrants in 2016 alone

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-spent-20-billion-euros-on-refugees-in-2016/a-38963299


all this will lead to is a world wide ghetto ruled over with an authoritarian police state just to make sure you niggers stay in your space and dont drift over into the gated elitist communities

>>3207056
White genocide is real

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>>3207011
please do
return to your containment board and don't come back

No, workers are retarded.

>>3206900
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary_2

Cost:
UK £460 million
(€700 million)
(US$900 million)

Crew: 1,253 officers and crew

$900 million/1,253=$718276.14

So you'd place $700000 worth of capital into the hands of each employee? They'd immediately vote to sell the ship and give themselves a $700000 pay rise, even if you have strict rules against that they'd still vote with this interest in mind, hurting the business. In the real world this sort of corruption is rife.

Worker ownership is just a very arbitrary hamfisted system for ensuring everyone gets a share. There is nothing inherently wrong with private capital.

Let's say that ship is owned by a pension fund that makes long term investmentss and the employees get decent healthcare benefits and wages, what would be wrong with that?

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>>3206957
>Posting the man of steal
>stalin did nothing wrong :DDDD

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>>3207061
Black genocide is real too

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>>3207174
name one thing stalin did wrong
ill wait

>>3207180
>>3207061
You know, I've never understood this.
The sheer number of whites vs everyone else in America basically ensures the bleaching of everyone else. I mean, the largest non-white groups in the US are already really mixed races ('blacks' 30% white, Hispanics 50+% white), a few generations of race mixing and they're gone. Southerners are 10% African but they don't look it, and it dilutes every generation.

>>3207122
Not even a communist but cooperatives are a thing. Anyway, I'm against business expropriation; if some workers feel they can manage a business better, they should start their own business without unfairly taking someone else's, that would entail the exercise of private property and the respect of private property.

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>>3207212
Actually I like Uncle Joe, he managed to kill more lefties, faggots and slavs than hitler and other fascists could ever dreamt. DO IT AGAIN MAN OF STEEL

>>3207230
Whites have low fertility whereas niggers (in Africa, not in america) and spics have very high fertility. Differential fertility rates can make population changes very rapid.

>>3207212
Refused to give up control of the military until the very end, also refused to cut his losses and retreat to establish a proper frontline, resulting in the needless deaths of millions of Russians.

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>>3207212
Oh stalin, All this traitors makes me gassy.

>>3206923
yeah, you are retarded

>>3207230
If whites mix with everyone you don't get slightly darker white people with odd noses you get Brazil.

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>>3207235
indeed; people who call themselves ukrainian are just russians in denial, and deserve to starve and die. not to mention he even made hitler the manlet kill himself because hitler can't grasp the fact that he is forever a shit leader
>>3207240
if he didn't make the sacrifices he did, all slavs would be genocided and russia would become germanys backyard. great victories come at a great cost
>>3207251
care to explain why? says more about you than it says about me

>>3207266
>people who call themselves ukrainian are just russians in denial, and deserve to starve

And you say stalin did nothing wrong? Smell to false flagging

>>3207287
nothing wrong with killing people who falsely identify as a sovereign identity as an excuse to gain independence. hell, america did the same thing to the dixies

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>>3207294
Well said comrade, isn't not genocide if you kill your own people.

>>3207330
well most of the 'ukrainians' were kulaks so who cares, their fault for not collectivizing their farms
not to mention the famine was the result of heavy industrialization which was necessary for socialism in one country and the survival of the ussr

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>>3207366
>it's okay to squeeze surplus value from workers for the glory of the state

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>>3207374
>survival of the state
ftfy

>>3207366
>not to mention the famine was the result of heavy industrialization which was necessary for socialism in one country and the survival of the ussr

Thats is a fuckin hypocresy, you tankies shit on capitalism for the same reasons, but if your workers paradise do the same thing is a sign of progress, right?

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>>3207366
Why commies hate farmers to0 much? it's like a trend in all their regimes.

>>3207385
it was industrialize, or become germanys backyard. which one would you choose?

>>3207384
>actually has theory updated for the 21st century
Top kek. The ML answer to why the 20th century was a failure is always "our brutally anti-worker states didn't worship Stalin enough"

>>3207390
Because they're jews, and jews live in cities.

>>3207395
So the end justify the means, so why communism is better then capitalism if need to do the same things and take toll the same victims?

>>3207390
It's almost as if Stalin directly used the mir model to exploit peasants and was totally against worker's control.

>>3207253
so you get bundas
fine by me

>>3206889
Affordable smartphones can't exist unless we have defacto slaves somewhere working for pennies.

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>>3207390
because they are stingy cunts. stalin wanted to improve farming and turn his country into a modern powerhouse, as the peasants way of farming was inefficient and shit. what does the farmer do? he kills all of his animals and resists collectivization like a coward. all farmers who did that deserve what they got.
>>3207397
the ussrs stagnation period didn't happen until khrushchev, you can blame him for the beginning of the end to the ussr
>>3207407
capitalism does it for the sake of getting richer, collectivization was temporary so the ussr could remain a sovereign nation

>>3207420
>implying the price of a smartphone is anywhere near their production cost.

>>3207433
Their production cost is based on slaves in Africa mining, and slaves in Asia manufacturing.
If those people were paid an average European salary, the machine would xot 20x.

>>3207428
>he ussrs stagnation period didn't happen until khrushchev, you can blame him for the beginning of the end to the ussr

No major economic changes were made in the USSR until 1965 with the kosygin reforms (which were almost entirely scrapped). Stalin's economic growth was based entirely on the mass expansion of inputs (employment, physical capital, education) that would inevitably lead to diminishing returns. Your argument is nothing but great man worship.

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>>3207428
>explotation its ok if is for sake of the state

Nice "true Communism" you have there tankie.

>>3207212
he didn't kill enough communists. 1 million was a good start, but there must have been more

>>3207180
This doesn't make any sense. Whites have less children than blacks, and there is continuous migration from black countries to white countries but not the other way around. Even if only a small number of whites have children with blacks, the population can only become more black. I can't even imagine what kind of bizarro math it would take to disprove this.

Cooperatives are a thing, you and your friends have the liberty to start up your own business where you don't "exploit" (somehow for dumb commies paying a wage is exploitation, kek) anyone and it may do well but someone else's private property is none of your business and there's nothing exploitative about the concept of a worker willingly exchanging his labor for a wage. Communism is an unfair, totalitarian ideology and communists are retarded.

>>3206898
And when everyone's a leader, where will the ship go?

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>>3207451
indeed, and he was the first of the few leaders that decided to economic reformation needed to be put in place. he also divided world communism with the sino soviet split because mao realized he was turning the ussr into a shithole
>>3207454
>wanting to improve practice of farming and take away greedy petite bourgeoisie land = exploitation
ok
also pic related is what any variation of leftcom wont ever do because it's way too idealistic
>>3207487
he only killed the shitty communists that want to achieve unrealistic fantasies and turn the ussr into a shithole via counter-revolution (trots)

>>3207501
the solution of white genocide is bleach all the nigress, dumb.

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>>3207515
>wanting to improve practice of farming and take away greedy petite bourgeoisie land = exploitation
>improve practice of farming

This freeze my seed, comrade.

>>3207180
>three-quarters white
>still looks black even through obvious lighting and makeup whitening

Nice try Schlomo

>>3207451
>>3207515
meant to type no instead of to, apologies for confusion

>>3207515
>Indeed, and he was the first of the few leaders that decided to economic reformation needed to be put in place.
Even the Russian aristocracy understood economic reformation was needed. Even before the 1861 abolition of Serfdom they understood this.
>he also divided world communism with the sino soviet split because mao realized he was turning the ussr into a shithole
Mao's didn't even follow his own critique of Stalin's squeeing of the peasantry and obsession with heavy industry as he did the same thing. Also, Mao himself also clearly became a revisionist with the three worlds theory.

>>3207529
how so? the technique for farming by the peasants was very poor, and caused a crisis in 1928. stalin decided to improve it, then people decided to hoard food. that freezes my seed, comrade.
>>3207539
why did all leaders after stalin make no economic reformation then? and yeah mao and stalin were ideologically similiar, mao just readjusted to the circumstances as most of china consisted of peasants. then khruschev came in with his revisionist reforms, causing the split.

>>3207433
Actually, the margins on many Android phones are thin af. The supply chains for these products are insane.

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>>3207566
>how so? the technique for farming by the peasants was very poor, and caused a crisis in 1928.

See>>3207390

Also it's not a surprise you don't know of Lysenko, this stupid fuck was patronized by stalin and literally forbid any research in genetics because is was a "bourgeois" science. he literally believed if you freeze your seeds you can get frost resistance.

>>3207566
>why did all leaders after stalin make no economic reformation then?
Well Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia made major reforms. The USSR's reform attempts were strangled by the conservatives.
>then khruschev came in with his revisionist reforms
name one major reform Khrushchev actually made other than destalinization. The anti-revisionist beef with Khrushchev amounts to being angry that he denounced Stalin and that he didn't use the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat"

Socialism doesn't work.

Marxism doesn't work.

Communism doesn't work.

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>>3207621
it will work if you have the technology

>>3207635
A fully efficient, cyber planned economy is incompatible with direct democracy and worker's control.

>>3207635
>stateless
Then who makes decisions?

>>3207589
well he did what he does; make agriculture increase with his policies. he couldn't have been that bad
>>3207616
>name one major reform
he decided that coexistence between the east and west was now the ussr's new priority, ultimately leading to its downfall. he also did shit like promote consumerism and private housing; key fundamentals in capitalism
>>3207621
neither does capitalism if you think about it

>>3207635
God you people don't even take a moment to think about the bullshit you spew

>>3207678
>he also did shit like promote consumerism and private housing; key fundamentals in capitalism
You think people can live in communal apartments and queue up in breadlines forever?

>>3207266
It doesn't matter if they share your ethnicity or not faggot. If they want to leave let them.

>>3207266
That faggot didn't even believe Hitler was invading after forces had gathering on his border for days. He was a retard for trusting someone clearly untrustworthy and it cost the lives of millions of Russians.

>>3207724
never said that, but private property is the epitome of capitalism. nothing wrong with personal property however
>>3207747
lol no
they are going to have to die trying, or deal with the fact that they are going to one day have to reunite with their motherland, whether they like it or not

>>3207678
>well he did what he does; make agriculture increase with his policies. he couldn't have been that bad

Actually no, his claims were lies and he tricked everyone for their own self interest and Uncle joe approved that because lysenko was a propaganda parrot talking about the miracles of soviet agriculture while accusing their own colleagues for treason.

>>3207764
>never said that, but private property is the epitome of capitalism
It isn't. The value form is.

>>3207764
You clearly haven't studied capitalism very much.

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>>3207767
but agriculture did increase during the period of collectivization??
>>3207754
well he got the land back from poland, and he didn't believe hitler would attack for at least a few more years, as germanys other front wasn't secured. either way, his non secured front bit him in the ass, and once again germany is left in divided shambles under the influence of foreign powers. Sad!
>>3207778
>>3207789
personal property =/= private property
there is a big difference, as in personal property being things you use and private property shit you own but never use

>>3206889
You mean apart from the fact that workers don't want ownership of production, and are too busy being religious and having traditional marriages?

Class consciousness literally is a meme.

>>3207830
This. There's a reason that the average union member pays a fee to be represented and then shows up to one meeting then never shows up again.

>>3207847
>There's a reason that the average union member pays a fee
Because if he doesn't he'll be fired. In many workplaces, it is mandatory to be a union member. Even if your union is worthless, you still have to pay your dues. It's extortion.

>>3207678
>capitalism doesn't work

weak bait

>>3207860
That's not what I'm saying. I agree that it's a scam in some places, but it proves that people aren't willing to participate in the manner that communist assert.

>>3207883
I agree. Clearly if workers need to be threatened with being fired to get them to join a union, they don't actually want to be unionized.

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>>3207862
>communism doesn't work
weak bait

>>3207889

Except for all the proof of communism not working.

>anime faggot
>communist

I feel bad for your parents

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>>3207807
>but agriculture did increase during the period of collectivization??

All thanks to your oppressive regime tanki scum, those farmer are literally slaves with little control of their lives and the land,of course you can defend this shit again with statistics because is the only thing then matter for you and your stupid band of stalin fanboys.

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>>3207754
>He was a retard for trusting someone clearly untrustworthy and it cost the lives of millions of Russians.

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>>3207895
where is the proof of communism not working, oh wait your from pol and you don't have any lol
>assumes I watch anime
jokes on you, I just have tons of pics I saved over the time of me being here. does the anime trigger you, reddit?

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>>3207900
stay mad, little baby trot man

>>3207934
not fooling anyone, except maybe yourself

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>>3207944
never said i am fooling you, just saying the truth really. /pol/ is a colonization camp from reddit to turn 4chan into shit, prove me wrong redditscum

>>3206891
Ownership is not management. Practically no large business owners know anything about how to run their business holdings.

>>3207807
Modern day Germans are a lot better off than the average Russian.

>>3208020
never said they weren't
but when germany was divided between east and west, both germanies were left in shambles after the war

>>3208036
Doesn't change that his refusal to believe the reports cost millions of lives. His spies blatantly told him that the Germans were planning an invasion and he didn't listen. Then when they actually did invade and were killing Russians, he still didn't listen.
>Muh rogue generals Hitler wouldn't do that

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>>3207676
You do.

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>>3207943
Keep cannibalising your own comrades tankie, in the end only your glorious leader matters.

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>>3207954
>A leftytard talking about poltards with superiority bias.

You are a literal carbon copy of them

>>3208068
well maybe they were rogue
unfortunately stalin had to purge lots of his generals before ww2 since they were planning to oust him, making lots of the newer generals and officers amateurish until they gained experience after barbarossa
>>3208091
they are not comrades, they are counterrevolutionaries and traitors to the socialist cause

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>>3208117
>unfortunately stalin had to purge lots of his generals before ww2 since they were planning to oust him.

Enemy colaboration is the best colaboration, eh comrade?

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>>3208111
wait, so all poltards are closet furries and feminine looking males?
huh; who would have thought. good thing most stalinists and maoists arent like the rest of leftypol

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>>3208130
they weren't an enemy yet though, and if hitler was smart he would have collaborated with stalin to defeat what was left of the west

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>>3208135
Both are cringe incarnate. Include (you) cat-alunya poster.

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>>3208151
this.

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>>3208165
there is literally nothing wrong with cat-alunya
although i agree some of the leftypol choir shit is genuine cringe

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>>3208202
Still mad?

>>3208234
no lol
its better to disassociate with reddit as they are full of idpolers that would spread their cancer to our site

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>>3207676

>>3208300
Then skynet is the state.

>>3208311
It's not a state classcuck

>>3206889
>leans back

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>>3208202
Why do you like stirner too much, its becouse edgy memes or he was really a socialist?

communism and nazism are fucking garbage

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>>3208318
Your utopia.

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HALT! Alright brothers, if you were even thinking about posting here, cease immediately. All you are doing is feeding this retard, just let this thread die quietly.

>>3208318
What is a state then?

>>3208323
i don't lol
i only saved pics of cat alunya since the whole /r/socialism catgirl fiasco was pretty fun to watch
>>3208333
>not giving me reasons as to why i'm a retard
sounds quite contradictory

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>>3208318
So, do you belive this socialism can be possible today?

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>>3208360
>>3208332
yes

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>>3208382
>yfw there will be a machine revolution against the human bourgeois

>>3208431
I'm sure glad you Commies will be killing people like me off first, so I don't have to get btfo by my own creation. A humiliation worse than death

The commie robots rebel against their commie masters, it's like poetry.

>>3208431
>its a capitalist projects their fear of automation with killer robots episode

By the time the burger kiosk launches bloody class war on me, it would have been worth the piled fascist skulls over the centuries.

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>>3206957
>>3206985
/leftypol/ is going all out.

>>3208995
is that pic referring to yourself?

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>>3209020

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>>3207635
>>3208431
>artificial intelligence supports com-
https://www.ft.com/content/e90a6c1c-7764-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71

>>3208079
MAGI Neural Net Governance when.

>>3207888
Unionization used to be huge though.

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>>3206889
>he fell for the worker ownership = socialism/communism meme

>trusting Sigma Aldrich to the workers
Okay Mr Marx.

>>3206897
This. Stock options is actually the closest realistic thing to what Marx was talking about.

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>>3209219
>Chinas communist party
>Communist

>>3206897
>>3211354
that's the most moronic thing I've ever read. It would follow that the best way to do democracy is to provide stock options for the state and then people's votes count according to the amount of stock they can afford. If you think that's a retarded way to do democracy on a nation level, you should also think it's retarded on the level of the enterprise.

>>3207122
>So you'd place $700000 worth of capital into the hands of each employee? They'd immediately vote to sell the ship and give themselves a $700000 pay rise
nothing wrong with that.

>>3208165
>the ppsh doesnt even have a magazine of any kind in it, nor does the user have it on his person
>no trigger discipline
leftypol everyone

>>3211467
>Don't true gommunism :DDDD checkmate porky's slave

>>3206889
>Is there a single downside to worker ownership?
No. That's why cooperatives are so popular.

>>3207234
cooperatives are cool, but they aren't going to be able to compete everywhere, something more like a trust fund for the "proletariat" would work better
>>3211904
it is a problem and it becomes more apparent when it is a necessity like a power station with high capital investment and a low number of employees

>>3206889
As I worker I have absolutely no desire to own any part of my company.

Enterprises are extremely tumultuous and full of uncertainty, probably why 95% of them fail within 5 years or less. I am quite content with my relationship with my company being one exclusively of "Show up, do your work. We give you a paycheck and benefits" and nothing else. While that means I wont reap the grand rewards if the company becomes wildly successful, that also means I wont personally be responsible if it fails.

If the company fails, I may be out of a job and that is worrisome but what would be more worrisome would be being out of a job, having my credit ruined, being bogged down in debt, filing bankruptcy and turning to liquidators to close lose ends. That is what the company owner will be going through if it fails and it is entirely a possibility as, at just over three years old, we are still a fledgling enterprise.

There is much less reward to be reaped in simply being an employee as opposed to an owner, but there is also drastically less risk involved as well. Not to mention the fact that it would be awfully conniving to wait until AFTER the company has already proven itself successful and sustainable then turn around and say I want to own equity in it. I suppose I may be given the option of an employee stock ownership program if/when we become a publicly traded corporation but that could take decades to happen and I may very well be long gone by then