Why are the Arabs do bad at conventional warfare? How could seven

>>3193330
A competent, professional military depends on several cultural ideas that the Arabs have not yet or refuse to adopt.
The first and most important is meritocracy. You want a hardened core of NCOs, warrant officers, and senior enlisted who can translate operation goals into tactical maneuvers and simple instructions. Instead, in Arab armies, you have people promoted through nepotism into positions they aren't fit for, captains unfit to lead fucking fire teams and colonels who jockeying for the next generalship that opens up and steal their men's pay. Arabs also promote based on regional, ethnic, tribal, and familial lineages, which erodes morale, dissuades bright potential recruits, and projects the image of the military as a corrupt institution.

Then you have their fucking training. The most competent candidates aren't selected for the prestige spots like officer school, jump school, and aviation training but the political reliable. They aren't held to any professional standard, but just fuck around with their new toys, barely learning the basics of operations. This is just the officers by the way. Enlisted is way worse. They just enlist a bunch of guys, hand them a rifle, give them minimal physical conditioning and training, and they do not build discipline within their ranks. Instead, you have these insanely brave sandniggers ramboing and getting killed instantly or deserters who turn tail the moment the guns start firing because they have no confidence in their cause or their commanders. You're better off just deputizing paramilitary organizations who are far better organized and motivated.

>>3193330
>Who are Hezbollah

>>3193374
why is that? Have they not needed discipline in their forces before? What changed that they grew so lax?

>>3193382
>conventional warfare
>not cowards using schools and hospitals as launching points for rockets

>>3193395
war changed and left them behind
notice how almost everything in that post could be also said about any army in late medieval Europe, but then Europe, North America and East Asia had a bunch of big fucking wars utilizing new technology, organization and tactics and Arabs just sat them out, so they never updated.

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

>>3193374
Let me try to make this into TL;DR form

Strategically:
>being located at the nexus of world energy so first world countries have a very VERY high geopolitical incentive to intervene if things get out of hand and BTFO, regime change bitch
>unstable governments under political pressure by fanatic ideologues and must constantly keep the military political reliable or it will get coup d'etat
>undiversified, single resource economies that are easily disrupted by strikes against vulnerable and fixed extraction facilities
>poor human capital development which means they don't have a large pool of educated recruits and people become less inclined to learn new processes and technical knowledge; horrible talent acquisition because they can't into meritocracy
>relatively poor so they can't afford to buy the nicest shiniest toys from the United States, leading them to use second-tier outdated Soviet-era garbage; even if they can afford the newest military equipment, they don't have the expertise to maintain/repair them

Operations
>military doctrines that emphasize infantry attacks with little air or armor support, suicidal bravery and showmanship in lieu of combined arms and seizing actually strategically valuable targets
>poor communications and intelligence; combat operations do not have the materiel or capability to exploit breakthroughs because of poor coordination and misinformation
>support operations are filled with either lazy cunts that don't know what they're doing or they know what they are doing but do not have the materiel to properly assist combat operations
>some countries subscribe to the "if you do not win, we will kill you" incentive structure, which results in the termination of military personnel with actual experience and radicalizes the officer class into a bunch of brainwashed morons that will send entire units to the death, reducing efficiency of resources spent

>>3193416
I wouldn't say that the Arabs sat them out but they never had their own nation states in the pre-modern and modern era, so they are way behind on basic shit like civics, actual Western liberal ideals such as equality and meritocracy (not memes like muh homosexuals or muh gender), a political process that allows people to express dissent instead of blindly following people into combat, tribal and ethnic affiliations over nation that nation states like France and Britain and Germany have managed to eradicate, and more egalitarian societies where more people have a stake in the nation's well-being and stability instead of being legal serfs. They're like divine right monarchies on steroids. Someone like Uday Hussein would have never been permitted to live in America but in Iraq, he was fucking untouchable.

>>3193382
A group of failures. Israel still stands

>>3193374
>>3193445

Were you in the US/UK military at any point?

>>3193399
>Believing Israeli propaganda

>>3193382
Even Hezbollah's leader admits the war he "won" was a mistake:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/27/mideast.nasrallah/

>>3195952
>Cnn
Into the trash it goes.

Nepotism and leaders appointing officers and generals based on their loyalty and not on their merit because they fear a coup, or a rebellion.

>>3193374
i dont know anon .. post camp david egyptian army seems okey to me

>>3196421
Egypt is not Arab.

>>3196437
that meme again ....

>>3196442
>Falling for the Pan-Arabism meme
Come on anon.

>>3196421
>i dont know anon .. post camp david egyptian army seems okey

How so? likewise notice how they fell into the problems leaders fear outlined in this thread - ie couping the government

>>3196445
that has nothing to do with the fact that egyptians consider themselves arabs too and fought for the arabs causes

>>3196452
and how will that affect their ability to fight a war ?

>>3196455
Not really. They are pretty amicable towards Israel, for example, compared to almost everyone else. And they remained strongly nationalist in identity when Pan-Arabism was a big thing. Pan-Arabism didn't take root precisely because Egyptians didn't consider themselves Arabs.

>>3196452
The coup had public support.

>>3196457
>and how will that affect their ability to fight a war ?

It does so indirectly because the military gains a political dimension. Hence why you start getting nepotism and cronyism which is normally quarantined by the political arena and which kills meritocracy.

Likewise it also means that the government who is in charge of supplying the military is liable to be distrustful towards them.

>>3196475
What about the first part of my response - evidence of them having a decent military.

>The coup had public support.
It doesnt matter - see >>3196479

>>3196475
pan - arabism didnt get really influential untill egypt supported it in nasser regime

>>3196479
a lot of armies around the world has a political dimension like china

File: Osprey - Men at Arms 140 - Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774-44.jpg (1018KB, 1798x2606px) Image search: [Google]

1018KB, 1798x2606px

>>3193395
The Arabs weren't even ruling their fucking countries between the time the Caliphates fell and WWI.

It was all mostly Turkics and their Steppenig-Cavalry and European/Caucasus/Anatolian infantry. Arabs were relegated to light infantry raiders because they were unreliable.

File: Nanjing Political Institute Graduation Dagger.jpg (69KB, 980x617px) Image search: [Google]

69KB, 980x617px

>>3196506
China has a central military commission.

It also solved the political reliability issue by removing the shrieking, politics-prone Militia from the PLA and pretty much making the party synonymous with the army instead of the army being subject to it.

In fact the Modern Chinese Commissar nowadays isn't a political officer anymore. He/she is a military bureaucrat.

>>3196520
and u think the egyptian army does not has a politically separated command ?

>>3196506
>a lot of armies around the world has a political dimension like china

Yeah and its deadly towards effectiveness in almost every circumstance. This happens to be vastly more noticable in Arabs as aside from getting into a lot more conflicts have enough money to splash on good equipment so that tools alone can be ruled out as a causal factor.

For instance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War

In this conflict they were fighting one of the poorest countries in world, they outnumbered them by a factor of three and had vastly superior technology (APCS and Fighter Jets as opposed to literal toyotas).

However they were crushed and lost 1.5 billion dollars worth of equipment and a decent chunk of their military.

File: Atatürk.jpg (59KB, 538x709px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 538x709px

>>3196481
Military coups aren't necessarily bad. Sometimes you have to kick religious extremists out from the government and start over again.

...Of course this means the military is more competent at shooting its own government than outside threats. As far as MENA militaries go, you could do worse than Egypt. They did the least bad in the Yom Kippur War

>>3196539
u dont just compare tribal army like the libyan to the egyptian one .. plus there is a massive advantage for the egyptians over the libyans in term of the leadership and experience

>>3196543
>Military coups aren't necessarily bad. Sometimes you have to kick religious extremists out from the government and start over again.

And sometimes its necessary to kick the military out of government, the problem is that when you have such internal divisions you will have military problems full stop as you understand in your second line and until this problem can be fixed its going to be ugly.


>As far as MENA militaries go, you could do worse than Egypt. They did the least bad in the Yom Kippur War

Which isn't all that impressive even though they certainly deserve credit for their impressive actions regarding the crossing of the suez.

Last time Arabs fought in a war was in the fucking middle ages a thousand years ago. They spent a thousand years sitting in the safety of the Ottoman empires back corner only gaining independence thanks to the fuckery of the eternal anglo.

Of course they're going to suck.

>>3196543
>Military coups aren't necessarily bad. Sometimes you have to kick religious extremists out from the government and start over again.
>...Of course this means the military is more competent at shooting its own government than outside threats. As far as MENA militaries go, you could do worse than Egypt. They did the least bad in the Yom Kippur War
Not really. The Arab countries with the most Nepotism and cronyism are by far Ba'athist Secular dictatorships like Assad's and Saddam's. The most effective Arab armies tend to be the small, but professional Religious militias like Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Houthis in Yemen.

>>3196559
>u dont just compare tribal army like the libyan to the egyptian one

You had oil rich country with Jets, tanks, APCs and vast amounts of men and weapons get completely BTFOd by a bunch of Chads with rocket launchers in rusty Toyotas. All of which was a war on its own border.

>tribal army

Take a look at what a tribal army managed to do to Egypt during the intervention in Yemen.

>>3196564
operstion badr was a massive success with almost no casualties.. the high command was preparing for moving the sam wall across the canal when sadat took a political decision to save the syrians in the golan heights and order the troops to advance with no air defense .. that lead to the massive casualties and the halt of advance .. imo the egyptians did very well in the war

>>3196587
>You had oil rich country with Jets, tanks, APCs and vast amounts of men and weapons get completely BTFOd by a bunch of Chads with rocket launchers in rusty Toyotas. All of which was a war on its own border.

ussr got gtfo by the afghans .. gorilla warfare can be tricky for even thy best armies like the muricans in nam

>Take a look at what a tribal army managed to do to Egypt during the intervention in Yemen.

same answer goes here

It's a problem inherent in the history of places formerly governed by the Mamluks and the Ottomans, I think. The legacy of the military-slave bureaucracy runs deep. The breakdown of impersonal military-slave run bureaucratic administration made some abominations crop up in governance and military in its vacuum.

>>3196588
>imo the egyptians did very well in the war
Like I said the initial operation was very well. However their activity in the war I think is not that impressive when you consider the massive advantage they had over Israel which was set upon on all sides and really lacked strategic depth.

When I think of Egypt doing well in battle I think of back in the 1840s where Muhammad Ali's army fucked up the superior Ottomans so hard all of Europe quickly got together to stop him and save the Ottomans

Muhammad Ali

>>3193399
Okay Mr. Goldenstein.

>>3193382
Hezbollah is ran by Iranians though.

>>3196592
> gorilla warfare can be tricky

Heres the thing the Chadians defeated them in open combat. Not only that but they also managed to take fewer casualties than the Libyans

The Soviets and Amerilards might have failed their strategic objectives but smashed the Taliban +Vietnamese militarily and did so consistently.

File: clinton-email-syria-israel.jpg (151KB, 730x537px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 730x537px

Anons. I want a serious answer to my next question, no trolling, no baiting, and no lying. Once the Syrian civil war is over regardless of the victor. What will America, Israel, and Saudi Arabia do with Iran? Because let's be real, Israel and the House of Saud are never going to accept a Nuclear armed Iran. Is an American invasion of Iran like the Iraq war going to happen? or will it be a regime change through rebel funding? or will we see a major Middle Eastern war in the near future with Israel and Saudi Arabia against Iran? Pic related is from Hilary Clinton's leaked emails. America literally fucked over Syria just to make sure Israel keeps hold of it's Nuclear Hegemony.

>>3196624
This is a /pol/ question.
>B-but they're retarded
Tough shit mate. Anyways, a policy of containment is the most boring and most likely.

>>3193399
(((You)))

File: 1491358501055.png (775KB, 9606x5725px) Image search: [Google]

775KB, 9606x5725px

>>3196624
Invading Iran won't be the problem, it's occupying them and trying to do Nation building like in Iraq that will fuck over America.

In a full scale war they could
>shoot a lot of cruise and ballistic missiles at US and allied facilities in the region, many of which are hardened inside well camouflaged underground bases
>mine the Straits of Hormuz and present an impassible missile/sub barrier that would have to be cleared away
>carry out asymmetric attacks like midget sub raids, suicide boat attacks
>activate a serious network of insurgents in Bahrain, HQ of the 5th Fleet
>present a not major but not insignificant anti-aircraft threat

All that could definitely be dealt with, but if you want to occupy them...that's a whole other deal. You're gonna be facing hundreds of thousands of insurgents, dug into cities of millions of people and fortified mountain cave complexes, with more than enough ATGMs, MANPADS, shoulder-fired anti-tank weapons, with well-enough motivated and trained soldiers, willing to engage in suicide attacks too.

Their armor/mechanized units aren't anywhere close to being able to face American forces in the field, and won't matter much in the balance.
They have a lot of artillery though, especially relatively small, portable and disguise-able MLRS systems that will be useful for a constant inaccurate peppering fire on any American forces on Iranian soil.

Iran is a gigantic country, much bigger than Iraq, and much more mountainous, with bigger and harder-to-take cities. and double the population. To get to Tehran you'd have to cross the entire country.

Minimum casualties to clear the Persian Gulf, invade and take Tehran: tens of thousands. Also, massive global oil price spike, which will disturb the world economy and set another great depression.

An American invasion of Iran will be to the U.S what the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was to the U.S.S.R, their end.

>>3196445
It's not important, when someone talk about arab armies losing against israel they think about egypt too, stop being a nitpicking faggot

>>3196605
his name give me hard on

if we set the nukes aside ... Israel wouldn't have been able to withstand its loses if it wasnt for the american airlift that replenished all of their loses in a matter of 3 days .. the egyptians did very well considering the circumstances

>>3196657
Thanks Anon. This was a very helpful post and informative. Good post.

>>3196657

As you're well aware, Iran has been under an arms embargo for decades. Based on the Iran nuclear deal, Iran will be able to purchase weapons from foreign countries by 2021. I suspect Iran will completely modernize their air force and armor units, while purchasing more sleek anti-ship missiles.

How do you think this will change the equation?

>>3196624
>What will America, Israel, and Saudi Arabia do with Iran?
SA is too incompetent to accomplish anything against Iran. Israel risks war with Hezbollah if it tries anything serious. America doesn't have the political will to do anything major about Iran.
Iran is by far the most competent geopolitical actor currently in the middle east, it will continue increasing in power for the foreseeable future.

>>3198117
>How do you think this will change the equation?

>modernize their air force
Nothing that F-35's won't be able to deal with.
>and armor units
More bodybags to send home then.
>more sleek anti-ship missiles.
Would make an amphibious invasion much more difficult.

>>3193421
Underrated post?

>>3193445
>>3193374
you also forgot inshallah.

I was deployed to Iraq and had to help run a range for iraqi army recruits. you can't get them to properly aim their weapons. shooting in the general direction is good enough. since it is "god's will " for the bullet to hit the target or not.

>>3196533
In practice? No.

File: 20170805_123629.jpg (2MB, 2560x1440px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2560x1440px

>>3193330
CONTROL JERUSALEM https://youtu.be/2XUamqhWOBk

>>3196533
why would it have one? The current leader is from the military, after all

>>3198197
>F-35s
Ayyyyyy

>>3198117
Iran gets weapons from North Korea, China, and Russia as well as the last several decades has been doing their own homebrew variants and supplying Hezbollah and the IRG with them. The "arms embargo" doesn't mean shit outside of it being a paper shackle.

>>3193330
The a***o, who forced clans and tribes to live inside arbitrary lines and pushed democracy, hence they have no clear loyalty and also have no way of establishing leaders.

Anyone who thinks Jews are worse than Arabs needs to die Arabs are the filth of the Earth and Jews literally did nothing wrong (I say this as a Christian Swede)

>>3196624
I thought it was still taboo to openly accept that Israel is a nuclear power?

>>3199902
Sverige ja!

>>3199902
Jo, dom är också skräp.

>>3198197
>F-35
lol

>>3199728
>>3200976
What's wrong? can't F-35's engage them?

>>3193399
>cowardness having any meaning in warfare

>>3200235
Israel is an evil colonial power, so no

>>3199902
This. Arabs have ruined the Middle East and continue to destroy its rich heritage with every passing day

>>3199365
> pressxtodoubt.jpg
Are they really that retarded? Their fucking lives are at sake, they must be at least a bit rational in situations such as a firefight, right?

>>3202074
Middle-East belong to the Arabs, anon

>>3193330
Because Arabs prefer loyal over capable people. Thats about it really

>>3199902
>I say that as a X
Why do retarded imbeciles think that they gain any kind of credibility when they are saying shit like that?

>>3202092
Id prefer roaches instead of arabs

>>3202175
>Id prefer roaches instead of arabs
I don't. Better superstitious fools than Nationalist thugs who will literally genocide you and then deny it it ever happened. I say this as an Armenian.

>>3193399
I think you are confused with Hamas

>>3202175
Ottoman was great but in the end they deserved it for forcing Turkish language, culture, and identity on the Arabs

>>3196624
As an Israeli I can tell you that Israel will probably not do anything serious but it will stay grumpy at the UN for allowing it.

Israel is very touchy about losing soldiers in wars and would usually not resort to fighting unless Israeli citizens are being threatened.

Even if something does happen to cause an armed response against Iran it would probably be just us sending our air force for support since we don't have the capability to start a long distance land war across the borders of other countries that are hostile to us.

To sum it all of Israel prefers the status quo.

>>3193399
t. Schlomo Goldbergstein

>>3202080
The power of ideology. As long as arabs teach themselves stupid ideas, they will fail.

>>3200977
[hangar queen syndrome intensifies]