When was england english? For some time they were pretty

2 key points:

1. Henry IV speaking English as his first language, showed break in aristocracy
2. Loss of continental possessions, created new identity

That's how the modern english identity formed basically

>>3189598
>Applying Nation state identities on Medieval Kingdoms.
Come_on_now.jpg.

>>3189598
>2. Loss of continental possessions, created new identity
This is largely misunderstood, thanks to horrible depictions and stories surrounding King John and Robin Hood.

>>3189612
Protestants, you can trust them as far as you can throw them.

>>3189598
Before 1066

>>3189607
>Henry IV

French king

>The House of Lancaster was the name of two cadet branches of the royal House of Plantagenet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lancaster

>>3189612

England and France were the first true nation sates, a result of the hundred years war which helped develop national identity as well as centralisation from London and Paris respectively.

>>3191216
Fuck off with your leftist propaganda

A people doesn't need a state to have its own identiy

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>>3191216
>England
>A nation
>Not just the mort important region of the UK

>>3191228
it's both

>>3191183
>Born in England
>Ethnically English
>Speaks English

How is he not English?

>>3191227

It forces people to all speak the same language and adopt the same religion. That's how you create a national identity.

>>3191298
>>Born in England
Muhammad and Djamal are born in England too

>>Speaks English*
Muhammad and Djamal speak English too

>>Ethnically English
Are Muhammad and Djamal English too ?


He was Ethnically French, like your noblity btw

>>3191416
Yes they are English too.

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>>3189598
Read >>3189676

>>3191416
No, because Muhammad isn't ethnically English, retard.

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>>3189598
>Normans
>French

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>>3191758
>Born in France
>Ethnically French
>Speaks French

How were they not French?

>>3191780
>Speaks French
There you go.

>>3189598
>For some time they were pretty much a french kingdom.

There are two possible truths.
1) England was very briefly french following the norman invasion, and later became english. This assumes that the norsemen who were given normandy became french, and therefore later became english through the same process.
2) England was norse following the norman invasion, and remained norse until the normans and their successor dynasties were replaced. This assumes that the norsemen remained norse on recieving normandy, and continued to be norse forever.
Either the frenchmen became english, or the norsemen never became french.

>>3191850
The original Normands were indeed Norwegians, but they were merily a minority and most of the "Normands" were named like that because they were inhabitant of Normandy not because they were ethnically Norwegians

As for the Norwegian nobility itself, it's blood was already diluted so much that they were at least 90% French genetically

The "Normands" that invaded Britain were French and called themselves, and the ones that continued to rule Britain til this day also call themselves French and are French patrinilearly

>>3191298
>Ethnically English
No such thing exists throughout the history of the British Monarchy, some were pretty Scottish or Welsh, but never English

>>3191869
They're fucking German, William and Harry are the most English people ever in the history of the monarchy because they got spat out by a Spencer

>>3191872
English ethnicity is a mixture of German, French and celtic.

>>3191879
It didn't exist in the monarchy until recently because they'd marry mainland royals, Elizabeth is German-Scottish, and neither of those things are English

>>3191892
What? Scottish is not an ethnicity. English is not an ethnicity. There's only Norse, French, Celtic and German in Western europe, and England is a mix of all 4.

>>3191877
>William and Harry are the most English people

Nope these are French

English were the peasants that feed them pork and beef

>>3191899
Then Celto-Norse, whatever you fucking autist, they aren't English
>>3191905
No, they're Saxe-Coburg-Gotha downgrades to minor English gentry, which means they have at least some native in them along the line, and with Williams kids they're only going to get more native

>>3191850
Your logic is flawed because the Normans only ruled England from 1066 to 1154
After that, pure Frenchmen from Anjou (Plantagenets) took over

>>3191919
>Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

I thought by William you meant "the Conqueror"

My point is still valid tho

The Nobility (not the ruling dynasty) is still French (Montgomery, and so on)

>>3191416
We're in an era where national identity begins to transcend ethnicity, thanks to America - it's a shared culture that makes you part of a national identity. Theoretically a burger could therefore identify as a beef wellington without ever setting foot in England, but location still matters.

>>3191940
The peerage is so diluted by natives at this point I'd hesitate to call them anything but English

>>3189598
As far as I know, the Normans were a small aristocracy.
It is kinda like the Franks. They were some German guys that were a very small percentage of the realms they ruled.

>>3191928
The Plantagenet kings had Norman blood. And the first of them was raised by his father as a Norman.

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>>3191956
The Plantagents and their spawn were fucking LARPers

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>>3191956
>Franks were Germans


Hans pls


Genetics already ended this debate

>>3191956
>And the first of them was raised by his father as a Norman.

Absolutly wrong, ignorant faggot
The Plantagenet kings of England has Norman blood through Matilda, not from a male Norman
Matilda had a son with a Frenchman (Geofreet of Plantagenet) and this son (Henry of Plantagenet) was raised by his French father as a Frenchman

>>3191956
>>3191979
Franks originated from current Netherlands
Then they conquered current France
And only after that they conquered current Germany
German is the thing they're the least if anything

>>3191183
That's like calling 4th generation German Americans German. A European German would gas you for that making mistake.

>>3192025
Integration wasn't the same at all though
French kings of England retained their language and ways for centuries, while the German migrant to the US had to assimilate quickly

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>>3191979
Forgot to mention that French are actually more related to Hungarians(Pannonians) than to French Basques or Spaniards !

I

>>3191919
How are they not english, if they speak English, are born in England and are ethnically English? we've established that Norse and Celtic are part of English heritage.

>>3192072
They aren't ethnically English, there was no Brytonnic blood in them until very recently, or do you think all celts are the same? You sound like an American applying your shit race theory

>>3192089
Holy shit, this level of autism. English people haven't had Brytonic ancestry in literal millenia.

Why are you so autistically obsessed with race?

>>3191416
The royal family is German though.

>>3192101
I'm not the one claiming only 4 fucking races exist in Europe

>>3192108
In Western Europe, essentially. That's the british isles, France and Germany.

Like, if I can ask, who cares if the royal Family 500 years ago wasn't the exact same type of European as the average English citizen? What does it matter?

>>3192108
not him but Tacitus said something similar

He said that the Britons near the English Coast were Gauls, the other Britons were Iberians, and the Picts were Germans.

He also mentioned a four indegenous population, if i'm not wrong

>>3192118
We aren't talking 500 years ago though, we're talking 100 when Geroge VI married a Scot producing the modern house of Windsor which is far removed from the old days of marrying continental royals whose ethnicity also didn't match their own countries in many respects, look at Prince Phillip, he's a Greek royal of German ethnicity

>>3192134
Okay? And?

>>3192137
And nothing, my entire point is they aren't ethnically English, I don't really give a shit what meaning you choose to derive from that, my original response was to someone saying they were Norman or French

>>3192145
So how long does a family need to live in England to be English? England is a mixture of genes from all over western europe. If you're white and are born in England, you're English. My own family can be traced back to Germany and Sweden, but I'm still English.

>>3192163
I don't think you're understanding things here, until WW1 the royals did not even pretend to be British, the House of Windsor was created to mark them out as specifically different from the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas that supported Germany

>>3192177
What? They were born in Britain and Spoke English. They were British. They only changed to Windsor to cut themselves off from their German relatives.

>>3192186
>They were born in X and spoke X language, therefore they are X
Queen Victoria was a German who fucked another German and gave birth to the German George V, at no point were they even LARPing as British

>>3192201
>They were born in X and spoke X language, therefore they are X

Uhh, that's pretty much how it works.

Just you saying they aren't British doesn't mean they aren't.

>>3192217
Are you really applying national categories to ruling aristocrats? They exist outside of it you little shit

>>3191227
>>3191183
England was one of the first cebtralized states in europe.

>>3192225
Firstly, why are you trying to act hard on a history forum?

Secondly, that's pretty much how nationality works.

i.e. If you're born in France and speak French, and are ethnically French, you're French. I'd even go as far to say you don't even need to be ethnically related to be that nationality, but /pol/ autists like you would have a fit.

>>3192235
They haven't been ethnically British until very recently, they married into families within the continent for political gain and it ended up with people who quite literally couldn't speak English inheriting the throne, if you want to pretend understanding a language means you're X ethnicity be my guest

>>3192250
Once again, ethnically British doesn't exist. The British isles for the past 1000 years have been a mix of Celts, Saxons, Angles, Normans, Norse and Norse.

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>>3192228
?

>>3192258
You keep shifting the point, what do you want from me here anon?

>>3191216
>>3192228
England was the most decentralized, the gentry were less beholden to the high aristocracy.

>>3192228
The first centralized state in Europe was Sweden under Gustav Adoplh, then Russia under Peter the Great

France started to be centralized under the Revolution, and that never created a French identity as you claim, on the crontrary it led to the rise of "Provincialisme"

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>>3191216
>FRANCE
>a nation state
>in medieval times

lmao nibba you're deluded

>>3192414
Oh it's the "nation identity has only existed for 200 years" meme

>>3192235
>but /pol/ autists like you would have a fit.
Not that guy, but I'm fine with white immigration as long as it is limited and assimilationist, to preserve national identity.

>>3192426
You misunderstood me

i argue AGAINST that meme actually