why does /his/ hate fascism? It rejects both the destruction

I'm not 15 anymore

>>3170654
We like Italian fascism

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>>3170667
any arguments?
>>3170673
made a thread a few days ago that was full with poeple crying about their freedumbs

>>3170654
This place is pretty much /pol/ 2.0 now. Fuck those racist bigots.

I'm gonna make a thread about this place on NeoGAF and SA tomorrow to call for backup.

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>>3170690
/pol/ isnt fascist, they are cuckservative pseudo- traditionalists

>>3170699
Fascist is a nationalistic imperialistic sexist racist homophobic ideology foaming with toxic masculinity. /his/ likes it now because /pol/bigots took over

Fuck fascism, fuck trump and fuck racism/sexism and most of all fuck PoC exclusion.

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>>3170699
This.

Also we get some really good threads about Fascism every now and then, problem is that most people don't seem to understand what fascism really is. Fascism will always depend on the country it grows from i.e Italian Fascism, Falangism for Spain, Iron Guard for Romania etc. NatSoc is just the German's take on Fascism which is why its fucking laughable when anyone other than Germans say it could work in their country (looking at you fellow Americans)

>>3170654
because fascism is the epitome of totalitarianism; nonfreedom. would you like to be a puppet controlled by the strings of a puppet master who can dictate anything and everything you do in your life? some people do; and i guess there's nothing wrong with that, but there are also others who don't

>>3170685
I know right? Freedom is for faggots. I love being cucked by the state. That's based as fuck!

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>>3170685
Your leader couldn't take on fucking Greece and had to become Hitler's buttboy in order to stay relevant

If there's someone more annoying than unironic hitler worshipers it's people who unironically think mussolini was better

>>3170654
Fascism doesn't work and modern fascists are just as much dumb LARPers as Communists are.

>>3170654
I don't like authoritarian fucks telling me I can't have sex with midgets.

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>>3170733
>>3170741
you guys think removing the power structure of the state will result in your freedom? The state, in theory, has an obligation to its people. This can be expected from nothing or nobody else
>>3170742
mussolino never intended to fight a war this early, ribbentrop and hitler promised not to. He should have never trusted them
>>3170745
I doubt it would work in the current western world, only when the situation gets so dire its either fascism or destruction. A return to natural order

>>3170685
futurism is cool and all but that image is hella poorly written - whoever wrote that is pretty clearly talking out of his ass

>>3170709
Antifa and SJW lefties are retarded, but so is being a statist shill cuck

>>3170783
no, i just think the state should have less control and work in favour of the majority to ensure more freedom, something that doesn't happen in authoritarian regimes.

and in fascism there is little/no obligation by the state to its people, since the state can now do anything he wants willy nilly. it also doesnt help that in todays age of surveillance and control, any sort of opposition can effectively be put down, no matter how tyrannical the state may be

>>3170654
homophobia, /his/ hates faggots

Same reason we hate communism

it doesn't work

>>3170852
Not him and not defending fascism per se, but why would you rather be controlled by "the majority" than by the state?

>>3170654
We generally like fascism, only Americans keep crying about it for some reason.

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>>3170852
mob rule is not freedom, its slavery to unwashed masses
>>3170893
but it did

Fascists and commies should be given free helicopter rides.

>>3170933
Are you aware that fascism draws its authority from "unwashed masses"?

>>3170943
Helicopter was invented by a devout monarchist, stop appropriating our inventions you lolbertarian bottom feeders.

>>3170783
>I doubt it would work in the current western world, only when the situation gets so dire its either fascism or destruction. A return to natural order
Why do Fascists always write in this autistic ostentatious style?

>>3170953
no, not really
>>3170989
sorry if it offends or irritates you Xd. My point stills stands, fascism will not be seen in the western world in the forseeable future

>>3171016
>Xd
Holy shit

>>3171016
>no, not really
Yes, really. Fascism is a populist movement.

>>3170783
>picture
What a dumb statement

>>3170906
>Things I don't like are the Americans' fault
lel

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>>3170654
Fascism is ok until you add nazis to the group. All this racial obsession is very pointless.

>>3170654
The whole ideology revolves around war and therefore killing

>>3170690
>WAAA MOMMY I USED THE WORD 'BIGOT' WHY WON'T THEY STOOOOOOP
Thanks for confirming that you're an autistic 12 year old who thinks his feelings dictate reality rather than objective truth existing outside human consciousness. That's also rules 1 and 4 you've broken, champ.

>>3171245
>don't care about something which is objectively shown to be medically relevant
What did he mean by this?
>>3171587
Do you have a single fact to back that up, amigo?

>>3171048
It's literally not. Fascism can be either theonomous or heteronomous, but authority is not derived from the majority.

>>3170709
I really hope this is bait. I really do.

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>>3170685
Nordicfags btfo

>>3170709
Buzzword overload

>>3170741
This! Statists are the biggest cucks on the planet.

>>3170654
People would rather think they are free while they are slaves like in all modern western countries

>>3170783
>mussolino never intended to fight a war this early, ribbentrop and hitler promised not to. He should have never trusted them
Yep. And the thing is, fascism encourages this sort of thing. In fascism, charismatic macho demagogues tend to rise to the top by telling the dumb masses whatever they want to hear. Then macho buttboy can't perform once he's actually the leader. Same thing in NatSoc - Hitler was really good at clawing his way up to the top of Germany, but once he was leader his diplomatic incompetence fucked it all up. This doesn't jut happen in fascism or NatSoc, of course - it's a common flaw of authoritarianism. For example, Lenin was a good revolutionary and a shit ruler.

>>3171774
>People would rather think they are free while they are slaves like in all modern western countries
There are gradations of economic freedom. Am I as free as a rich man? No. Does that mean I'm a slave? No, I'm obviously a lot more free than a black dude working on a plantation in 1850. You can call me a slave if you want, but that's extremely simplistic.
Furthermore, there is very little reason to believe that fascism would actually make things any better. It's just replacing one kind of unfreedom with a different, and probably shittier kind.

>>3171678
>facism=racism

Hitler is responsable for that shit.

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>>3171678

>>3171678
>I should scream at every black person I see because they probably have 5 less iq points than I do

>>3170690
>>3170709

Most obvious false flag of all time

>>3172252
Yep

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for the mussoliniposter:
what's your top five books on fascist italy (ideology, history, thinkers, political program etc)

THANKS MY M A N

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>>3170654
>It rejects both the destruction of history, and the senseless clinging to it.
Meanwhile, in Fascist Japan.
>LOOK! Our military saber make look like Katana! Banzai!
>YOU MUST DIE RATHER THAN RETREAT OR SURRENDER BANZAAAAAI!

They not only clung to history, but distorted it as well. The actual Samurai were very practical military men who didn't do suicidal shit on purpose and could retreat or surrender if the situation ever called for it.

>>3172283
Japan was never fascist.

>>3170654
Fascists and communists are the same sort of mindless statists waving around different flags, don't be fooled by the pretty words they use to describe themselves and one another.

>>3172300
It was when the Militarists took over the government.

>>3172320
Military junta is not fascism.

>>3172308
Nothing wrong with being a statist

>>3172323
>Nationalistic Authoritarian Militaristic Expansionist Imperialists
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

>>3172336
>using the idiotic Umberto Eco definition instead of what actual fascists defined fascism to be

>>3172336
honestly fascism is just a specific flavor of the thing

>>3172336
>Nationalistic Authoritarian Militaristic Expansionist Imperialists
Napoleon was a fascist too?

>>3172363
Every manifestation of nationalism or patriotism is fascism by the average lefty.

>>3170959
Interesting got any sauce on that

>>3170654
It is wildly inefficient
>Falling for the trains run on time meme

>>3170712

Americans get what fascism is, there isn't much to it.

monarchy + technology = fascism

But you krauts love to larp about this shit as if there's some nuance to it and it's cute.

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>>3170685
>Fascism: can bang ethiopian hotties and bleach Africa

>Nazism: hier ist Ingrid, she ist aryan und makes gut scheisse und deutsches kaviar sex. Unsern vateren are proud

Dumb krauts

>>3172556
>monarchy + tecnhology = fascism

Uhhhh, what?

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>>3172874
I'll take Ingrid any day

>>3170709
>nationalistic imperialistic sexist racist homophobic ideology foaming with toxic masculinity
I'm not even from /pol/ but you need to fuck off with this moralfaggotry

>>3173360
It's obviously a /pol/tard falseflagging because they're so fucking bored with themselves they need to manufacture strawmen opposition.

>>3170654
Define "fascism". Get 20 people who call themselves fascists, and you will get at least 12 definitions. You people can't even agree on what it means, how are we supposed to like or support it?

If its state corporatism, its shit for reasons obvious in the USA today, with corn, milk, pesticide, military gear and pharmaceuticals producers preventing the government from running properly.

It's authoritarian, and therefore shit. 4chan is naturally anti-authoritarian, and outside of the /pol/ aligned boards worshiping ethnonationalism, tends to shy away from it.

That said, Austrofascism is kinda neat.

>>3172556
Monarchy = mandate of haven, divine right, blue blood, etc.
Monarchy means that God put you in power, and people who want to take power away from you are heretics.

Fascism doesn't have that. It can't justify one guy being in power, nor explain why it is this specific one guy and not the other guy who is currently gathering a private army to change that.

>monarchy - God made me king, thus I rule
>democracy - you voted me king, thus I rule
>oligarchy - we are the richest, most successful men, and this guy represent us, the creme of society
>plutocracy - I am king, because my personal skills and success allowed me to buy this position, my wealth proof of my worth
>fascism - I am king, because.... ???? please don't rebel

>>3173352
Her arms look hairy , but yeah German girls have perfect jaw lines

>>3170685
to be fair, Hitler tried to take over EXACTLY the same way as Mussolini and democratic takeover was plan B

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>>3173769
how is USA cosporatist? Which timeline do you live in
>>3173774
they are anti-authoritarian because they are sinners and only want license

>>3173826
>how is USA cosporatist

What is lobbyism?
What is military industrial complex?
What are the big industries I mentioned, who will literally and openly pay millions to a candidate so they can change laws in their favor when they win?

Modern day Russia has these corps directly influencing policy too.

>>3173826
>Sinners
Okay, monotheist scum.

>>3173774
>Austrofascism

I like how the existence of this shows us that the german NatSoc regime was internationalist in nature, since it saw the nation of Austria as its own, despite their obvious traditional, historical and cultural independence.

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>>3173834
what exactly is your definition of corporatism, i think you are talking about something different from me

>>3173352
I'm no expert but it doesn't look like she knows how to use a bow

>>3173846
The control of the state by interest groups, mostly industrial giants. As noted, in the USA thats "Big Pharma', or the Military Industrial Complex, or the producers of corn, milk, etc.
They influence what research gets published, what policies get passed, and in the case of the military, may even influence foreign politics.

>>3172336
German Empire was fascist too?

>>3172336
>Nationalistic Authoritarian Militaristic Expansionist Imperialists

Alexander's Greece invented Fascism?

>>3172346
What did they define it as, exactly?
Neo-classic aesthetic for Germany, futuristic aesthetics for Italy, no aesthetics for Japan.
Keynesian economics for Germany, Austrian economics for Italy, central planning for Japan.
Pan-germanic nationalism for Germany, Imperialism and civic nationalism for Italy, Japanese racial supremacy for Japan.
Protestantism for Germany, Catholicism for Italy, cult of the Emperor and ancestor worship for Japan.

Which is fascism? Because they are all called fascists, and have little in common.

>>3173876
corporatism is the opposite. representatives from all parts of society, grain producers, stoneworkers etc. working in unison like seperate limbs under the government (corpo=body, makes sense right) for the nation. The state controls the interest groups. Otherwise autarky is impossible

>>3171671
I want newfags like you to fucking leave.

>>3173904
>corporatism is the opposite of the definition of corporatism

You are quitting theological definitions, and not the 20th century definitions that were enacted.
Corporatism meant that Bayer, BMW, Alianz, Kodak, Mitsubishi, etc big family businesses got to take state projects, buy competitors with the money, and dictate policies with their huge new influence.

>>3173916
>quitting
Quoting*

>>3173904
Doesn't really matter much anyway. In practice both will almost inevitably be the same. The idea that the state will control the interest groups for the good of the people is about as likely to come true as the communist idea that the workers will own the means of production and the state will wither away. These are fantasies.

>>3173916
I think he's talking about corporativism which I think was spawned in Italy and heavily influenced Italian fascism and not corporatism but it's just a guess and I've only read the last few posts

>>3173930
Right, corporativism is the catholic idea that would be implemented as corporatism in Italy, basically meaning that big family businesses in the North will get government money to monopolize their field and help the government, but over time that meant that they started to dictate to the government what to do.
Those same businesses are still the core of Italy's economy by the way, what was given to them during fascism was enough to keep them in charge since.

>>3173916
You're talking about corporatocracy. Corportarism is just goverment structures by interest groups, which in a non-capitalist state doesn't mean literal giant corporations.

>>3172874
to be fair the only acceptable niggers in africa are the ones living in east africa, bantus are quite ugly

>>3173782
fascism is an oligarchy
also will to power

>>3173900
Italian because they are the only ones who called themselves fascist

>>3173920
they are clearly not the same, quite the opposites really. I know thinking beyond egoism is hard these days, but you can atleast try

>>3173955
>Corportarism is just goverment structures by interest groups, which in a non-capitalist state doesn't mean literal giant corporations.

In Italy, Germany and Japan, it meant exactly that.

>>3171678
>What did he mean by this?
he proved that you're a retarded.

Obssecion over race is stupid, history prove that.

The Romans thought the white people north of them were barbarians and savages, low men. Later in history, these north european's come to think of the southern ones as low, dirtier, people.

In America, the Jewish person was once thought to have a lower IQ than 'whites' as well with Italians and Irish...and don't even get me started on WW2 and how racist that got.

I don't think they realize that race is entirely made up. When someone says they are Greek for example, what makes them not Turkish? Ancient Greece once occupied land that would be in Turkey, where is the cut off in history that someone's ancestors would be Greek or Turkish? If you've been born on American soil, and your family dates back to the start of America, why are you simply not American? Why do you feel that you are German, Irish, Scottish, etc? Shouldn't you just be American?

Because history will call these people Americans.

>>3173957
>>>/pol/

>>3174112
>In America, the Jewish person was once thought to have a lower IQ than 'whites' as well with Italians and Irish.
Lies propagated by the jewish communist Stephen Jay Gould.

>>3174117
I'm not defending the overvictimization of the jews by themselves (mostly economic) but do you have any concrete proof?

>>3170654
Let me know when there's a system of fascism that doesn't involve handing power over to a cabal of financiers and industrialists.

>>3174123
Burden of proof is on you

>>3173782
"Because I can become one."

>>3174142
This in no way defends you from every Chad trying to be emperor instead of you. I mean, if they think they can become one, why not try?
And then your country is in constant civil war.

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>>3174153
Because that's totally what happened in all the fascist states in existence.

>>3174158
They existed for like 20 years, half of which was taking it up the ass from other countries.

>>3174163
And they all had relatively high stability devoid of any civil wars untill their state was made defunct by the state of the war.

>>3174153
It could happen and sure, a lot of people may try. But that is essence of fascism - the strength and rule of the strong. If you can't defend the throne then you are weak and are not worthy of it.
It is not an ideology, I think it is an approach of "what will make us stronger". It is situational and can adopt various ideologies if they suit the situation.

>>3174170
>constant civil war is actually a good thing
>only weakling untermensch have peace

>>3174174
Why do you assume things that I did not say and that did not happen massively to fascist states?

>>3174181
Why do you think that what you saw in the very short initial and mobilized period of fascist rule would scale to eternity?
They didn't get civil war, because they collapsed and went extinct before that was possible.
Ideologically, fascist states fail to justify why the guy in charge is indeed in charge. Other systems have a moral, or ethical, or divine, or practical, or any other justification. Fascism does not. Its not coherent and doesn't make sense, and if it had survived enough for people to question it, it would've imploded.

>why aren't I a fascist
Fascism completely ignores the driving material conditions behind people's actions and promotes class collaboration, an impossible ideal that is passed as a "meritocracy", but the state doesn't promote people who deserve it, only those that the state benefits from, as shown from fascist Italy's policies and how Hitler pandered to capitalists that were willing to support him in order to preserve their private properties.
It's simply a matter of reals > feels, it is not in my self interest to be a bootlicker for my state's overlords

>>3174204
You are missing one of their pillars, which is the claim that being a bootlicker serf in a glorious thousand year empire is superior to being king of a barbarian mountain kingdom.
Not saying its true, but it is part of their ideology, and you missed it.

>>3174187
It is just your assumption. Also why do you talk with me like you want to persuade me that it does not work? Did I say that it will? Was it even a point in my messages? I tried to explain my understanding of what fascism might be. What is your point with who do you argue in those messages, your phantoms?

>>3174213
Did you just call my post an opinion, and thus wrong, while also calling your own posts opinions, and thus infallible?

>>3174204
What if I'm not motivated by self interest and don't care if I have to be a bootlicker to improve humanity as a whole? Authoritarian governments get things done, democracies seem to only work when there are existential external threats (Cold War America, any Allied country during WW2 for instance). I'd happily take a severe reduction in quality of life if it meant pushing space exploration or fusion power ahead. I just want progress, and it isn't coming from obsessively inward-looking liberal democracies.

>>3174216
Come clean my room, cook for me and lick my balls, while I study physics.
Together we will make history.

>>3174221
Being a sarcastic ass on /his/ won't make history. Enjoy using your freedom to jerk off to MLP porn and watch mindless television. I'm sure you won't regret a single thing when you're faced with the crushing nothingness of death

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you will never be free, the outside world always dictate your life. How this world is shaped is up to those in power. Id rather have a man of the people than an internationalist cabal

>>3174233
I mean it, we will aid humanity, all you have to do is suck my dick and clean my room. If I wasnt wasting time on these, I'd have graduated by now.
Isn't this what you wanted?

>>3174215
I assume all statements to be opinions because for us I assume there is no reality but our subjective worlds. This way it might be much easier to both not argue over things and to not fall into dogmatic thinking. It might make it easier to come closer to what actually happens if it is possible at all.

>>3174270
Thats not the point. The point is that my posts are wrong, because they are opinions, and at the same time your posts can't be wrong, because they are opinions.
The "opinion" keyword means death for me, and invulnerability for you. Your rules are busted.

>>3174206
I do realize that, but it is simply like I said "feels>reals", at the end of the day, the factory worker is still being exploited, most of us browsing 4chan would still be living shitty lives under fascism for the "greater cause" imposed on us being the bourgeois elites.
>>3174216
Good, now say that again while working a 16 hours per day job instead of shitposting on 4chan, for the "progress" of mankind

>>3174285
That poser wouldn't even lick my balls for progress, let alone work all day. He isn't a real fascist.

>>3174275
Are you dense? Where do you get those ideas from?

>>3174134
I'm not the one who claim that it didn't happen, it''s you.

There is no proof which disprove him, you can't deny the antisemiticism through history, you can question the overvictimization from the jews but you can't deny the evidence;

>>3172336
There is zero wrong with all of those things

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bootlicking cucks amirite guys, not like use capatlist free souls. We bow to no one.

ahh yes boss you called? Sure i can overwork today

>>3174346
>if you're not a fascist you must like capitalism

>>3174267
Pray tell, what's the real world analogue to sucking someone's dick? There's a reason that's used as a hyperbolic and insulting phrase.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. What you're saying is neither funny nor convincing. Are you trying to make me mad or using a God-awful analogy in a genuine attempt to show me why fascism is bad? You realize your boss in any European country or theUS today has more of a direct impact on your life than any fascist government did on the average citizen? Everyone loves the most extreme examples but they're rarely representative of the average or typical. You can't escape authority, you can't escape coercion. Who you give it to and when is all that matters

>>3174360
Are you saying you want to suck Trump's dick instead of mine, you slut?

>>3174360
See >>3174354
>you can't escape authority
not with your classcuked mindset

>>3174371
So this is the power of projection. You've got a really strange fixation on dicks my friend

Don't worry comrade, Lenin's body has been preserved so proud members of the proletariat like yourself can suck his dick posthumously.

>>3174379
Are you denying that Trump is in a position of power?
Are you denying that Trump is losing time and energy achieving orgasm by inefficient means of courting, flirting, or masturbating?
Are you denying that your greedy throat could reduce his downtime, thus give him more time to properly rule, and advance humanity as a whole, while advancing up your ass?

>>3174375
Are we comparing an idealized fascist state to other idealized states or comparing a real world fascist state to your idealized communist state? You're being awfully disingenuous

>>3174384
Is this what communists think passes for discourse? Fuck, at least I'm not emotionally invested in fascism and just don't like political deadlock. I can't imagine how buttblasted I'd be if I was obsessed with my ideology dominating the world.

>>3174391
>discoursing with someone who claims being a slave in a rich house is morally superior to being your own free man

I'd rather discourse with my dog.

>>3174394
>morally superior
Kek, what? Dude you're just spouting random gibberish at this point. First ranting about dicks and now bringing up random and unrelated points. You're never gonna bring about a worker's paradise with memes, you gotta do better

>>3174424
Reminder >>3174216

>>3174437
>morally superior
>found neither in the letter or spirit of my post
What am I being reminded of? I want things to happen. That doesn't mean I am attaching some arbitrary moral code to it. This is where I remind you that you're projecting again

>>3174446
>I am okay with being a slave, if that means humanity moves forward.
Back to giving Trump ass. How is this not in line with your ideology?

>>3174387
>Communist
>State
boi

>>3174451
If you gave me a reasonable hypothetical I'd give you answers that'd be more satisfying. I'll take one of the more unpleasant things I can think of as an example. Let's say we were returning to the moon with the intention of eventually establishing a permanent station. One person is needed to look after it for some time, but there are no volunteers. Because of bone and muscle degradation you're fucked for life by staying for long, and it's paired up with probably crushing loneliness and depression from being alone in a confined space far from civilization. I'd absolutely volunteer if I qualified and nobody else stepped up.

I'm not selfish and if I can identify a real benefit to other people I'll make personal sacrifices. That example is one that clearly benefits humanity but also totally screws me over. Are you saying you would hesitate to do something or sacrifice something that would have an immense impact on our future, or are you a selfish cunt like you seem to be? My reasons have nothing to do with fascist rhetoric or aesthetics. I don't care about racial purity or national pride so much as I want humanity to thrive, and I believe everyone should be willing to make sacrifices for their fellow man. If I thought communism was a better bet for ensuring humanity's survival and success I'd be a communist. I have no ideological aversion to it, but I must say that communists are some of the more annoying people I've had the dubious pleasure of interacting with

>>3174502
turn of phrase. Sue me
>high level of discourse is expected
Straight from the sticky. Do you think that nitpicking and memes qualify?

>>3174509
>humanity
>future
>community
>society

Spooks. Not mine. My life is mine. I will look after mine, and ignore spooks.

>>3174509
Not that anon, I agree that he was memeing too much be he has a point, the space example you gave sounds more like you're romanticizing duty instead of being actually ready to live up to those ideals, I think the anon's point is valid in the sense of pride and personal degradation, you're still holding on to your sense of personal pride as shown by your fetishization of martyrdom in your post.

>>3174531
This.
try talking about "human progress" when you are slaving away in a sweatshop doing the same task for 15 hours a day

>>3170690
Most /pol/ are just edgy libertarians who hates niggers, they claim to be pro-traditionalism, nationalism and against globalism and zionism, yet most off them zealously defend liberal ideas like free market capitalism despite that free market capitalism is inheritly international/globalist and often destroys or corrupt traditions

>>3174542
fascist anon isn't advocating working in a sweatshop for 15 hours a day. Fascist Italy did make some efforts to protect workers from those sorts of conditions, and Mosley was similarly critical of sweatshop conditions.

>>3170685
>Academia and intellectualism prospers in Fascist countries

Is this the height of wehraboo autism?

>>3170751
real tark

>>3172323
The junta was heavely influenced by fascism and seeked to apply it to japan thought

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>>3174375
>>3174354
>>3174502
>implying that in a libertarian socialist Utopia you would just be a slave off the majority. And that the most charismatic individual would become the de facto leader in your "communal workers direct democracy".
There will always be a leader and followers, it's the natural order of things

>>3174644
>would
Wouldn't

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>>3174267
>>3174371
>>3174221
>>3174290

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>>3174644
>natural order of things
For you

>>3174656
>when you solve issues by shouting COMMIE COMMIE at them

>>3174659
>an individual is an isolated entity from the rest of society
Delusions

>>3174683
when did Stirner say this?

>>3174116
you know i am right, congolese are ugly, ethiopians are better

>>3174163
>What is Portugal
>What is Spain
>What is South America

>>3174659
>Spookman supporting anything relevant

>>3174808
Yeah it sure went well for all of them.

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>>3172275
have you seen this

>>3173846
>>3173826
>>3173844
also the fact that labor disputes are mediated by the state. it was very similar to what mussolini and other fascists did, not to mentioned welfare states. Desu, democratic welfare states were basically the triumph of fascism :^) e.g. sweden

>>3170709
So many buzzwords so little time

>>3173834
WHY DO YOU AMERICAN RETARDS NOT LEARN WHAT CORPORATISM MEANS

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>>3174656
>when your best argument is a deliberate misunderstanding of the opponent

>>3174915
So fascism is just a sort of autoritarian socdem with guns.

>>3173916
the theological definitions, to be fair, partly influenced the fascist ideas of corporatism. I think you get to the middle of the idea well though; corporatism in thought was not the same thing as corporatism in action, which ended up in Italy and Germany as pro-big business and keeping workers disciplined by the state for the sake of these businesses.

>>3173916
That's corporatocracy, not corporatism. Corporatism has nothing to do with "big business" aka corporations buting up the government, you're literally just brainletting your way through this simply because the words sound similar.

Corporatism is basically extreme statism + something like a medieval guild system or syndicalism.

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>>3174931
>Italy and Germany as pro-big business and keeping workers disciplined by the state for the sake of these businesses.

not in the beginning

>>3174936
Yeah, thats right, fellow big brain. Its a guild system, and the car manufacturer guild is called BMW, the drug manufacturing guild is called BMW, the insurance guild is called Alianz, and workers who go on strike for higher wages get shot. But its totally not at all about big biz.

>ur brainlet
Kill yourself.

>>3174941
>the drug manufacturing guild is called BMW
Bayer*, fuck. Your stupidity got me mad there.

>>3174133
you can say the same about liberal democracy t.b.h.. Just look at that cabal of politicians and tycoons who were part of that freemason-type organization who were found to control all of Italy in the late 1980s.
you can't make this shit up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

>>3174941
Nazi Germany was never corporatist, not even on paper.

>>3170933
>but it did
Name one fascist country that exists today.

>>3174956
China.

>>3174956
Israel.

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>did
alluding to a point in the past. Norks are probably closest though

>>3174956
>>3174965
fail

>>3174956
Russia.

>>3170654
>why does /his/ hate fascism? It rejects both the destruction of history
>proceeds to destroy everything of historical value to the east of Germany

>>3174956
France.

>>3174956
Belarus.

>>3174941
You're an imbecile. Italian fascism and their doctrine had nothing to do with Hitler.

>>3174982
>my special specific snowflake blend of fascism has never been tried

A conservative Republic is objectively the most sensible government.

That being said, Fascism gets way worse a wrap than it deserves due to our blind commitment to further pushing the envelope in Liberalism.

>>3174360
tbf, sucking that anon's dick and doing his bidding is probably the most humane exploitation you will experience. why would he have a reason to treat you badly and exploit you if you suck his dick well?

>>3174956
North Korea is pretty crypto-fascist

>>3174987
It was tried in Italy. Nazi Germany was never fascist.

fascism
>promotes family values
>promotes having healthy bodies
>gives times to kids and families to be together
>lesser freedom but more security
>expected to do your part

this sounds terrible to be honest
I prefer modern societies where we are all still spied but are guaranteed no security and where having kids has become a luxury
but who cares I can own the latest smartphone so everything is fine

How do you define fascism?

>>3174987
t. inferior American

>>3174999
Big business rules the country through a charming puppet who shouts at crowds.

>>3174956
USA.

>>3170709
I hate racism and sexism and yet your post still irritate me.
What should I think

>>3175004
so the entire western world is fascist

>>3175014
Wake up, sheeple!

>>3174999
It organizes the country like a body. The government is the brain, and while it's important that other organs in the body are kept healthy, their ultimate purpose is to serve the brain and keep it functioning. Things like communism are basically treated as cancer cells or viruses that ultimately destroy the body and need to be dealt with.
Also ignore this retard: >>3175004 it's not his fault that he's American.

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>>3174973
which timeline are you from?
>>3174987
nazi germany was neither national socialist nor fascist. Some kind of abomination of german autism
>>3174999
merger of corporation and state is the best short one I geuss
>>3175004
wow good one!

>>3174923
tbf, in a corporatist state, the interest of the corporations would be represented alongside other social groups. It's basically the same thing as lobbyists except that they'd actually have political institution in which to air their interests instead of backdoor lobbying in the halls of congress. I'm not sure if it'd actually work, but Mussolini did create a legislative body like this which represented different social and economic groups, though it was essentially toothless.

>>3175023
Wow, how much drivel one can write without making any points.
Post actual policies, not mongolian shaman tales.

>>3174926
well socdem historically has given stronger protections and rights to workers, but as other anons have pointed out, mussolini (way more than hitler) did create labor laws. I mean Brazil (and Argentina I think) STILL use these labor laws after modeling them off of Mussolini's regime in the 1930s and 40s (during Vargas' estado novo and the Peronist dictatorship respectively)

>>3174926
>socdem
>dem
Your first mistake.

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>>3170685
>be Mussolini
>hitler invading all countries left and right
>jealous
>try to invade Greece
>fuck up so badly that you not only fail, but the German army is forced to invade FOR YOU to protect the Balkans against an allied front, thus postponing operation Barbarossa
>tfw invading only one country fucked up your entire alliance's war effort

Why are Fascists so shit at combat? Even Franco couldn't win without the help of his Moroccan rape army.

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>>3175004
t.leftypol

>>3175055
Franco was to the far right of fascism, he was counter-enlightement.

>>3174937
absolutely "in the beginning". you're making the mistake of thinking that fascism as a political movement is the same as fascist controled government. its the same distinction between words and action, utopian political promise and prosaic, corrupt reality of shady dealings and manipulating statistics.

>>3175055
Italy wasn't ready for war, lack of equipment and training etc.
They only entered the war because Mussolini feared the conflict would end soon.
Funny enough the Italian royal army performed better when they were given allied equipment and some training after they joined the allied forces

>>3175022
he's not exactly wrong...

>>3172874
The Italians proscribed race-mixing in Ethiopia

>>3175240
that was around the time mussolini started to warm up to hitler and he started to incorporate racial ideas into his thinking. see: anti-jewish laws of 1938, which actually disgusted many italian fascists

>>3175240
>in Ethiopia
Nothing wrong doing it over there.
Just don't bring that shit to the homeland.

>>3175240
This.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuFdYJa7DNc

>>3175023
>It organizes the country like a body. The government is the brain, and while it's important that other organs in the body are kept healthy, their ultimate purpose is to serve the brain and keep it functioning. Things like (other ideology) are basically treated as cancer cells or viruses that ultimately destroy the body and need to be dealt with.

This defines every single form of government, and basically you said nothing.

>>3175398
>This defines every single form of government
No it doesn't. Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies. Read a book.

>>3175458
>Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies.

No,it only permits centrists. Read a fucking wiki article on Overton window, then see how many communist, anarchist or monarchist parties are in your parliament.

>>3174973
>Le fascism is nazism meme

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Nough said.

>>3175555
>read a book
>No, YOU read wikipedia!
nice argument retard

>>3175608
>ignores my argument so he can complain the attached insult isn't up to standards

>>3173352
What the fuck is that form? How do you even let go of the arrow without disrupting it's flight like that? Does she even know how to use a bow?

>>3175641
What's your argument, that governments don't give representation to people who think that government shouldn't even exist?? Wow deep man

>>3175664
>Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies, except it actually doesn't permit opposing ideologies, and actively bans them
>Read Harry Potter, it will all become clear

>>3175673
How are you gonna complain about me ignoring your shitty argument that muh government is mean and doesnt let anarchists in parliament, and then make this shitty post like a retard? The point still stands that you said all governments treat opposing ideologies like fascism does, by destroying them. That's literally untrue. If you want to have shitty opinions about things that are wrong feel free to stop posting

>>3175688
Government allows flavors of centrism, and nothing else. Everything outside the Overton window isn't permitted.
How can you claim it allows opposing ideologies, when the only people allowed are parliamentarians? Left parliamentarians, right parliamentarians, social parliamentarians, nationalist parliamentarians, purple parliamentarians, parliamentarian bikers from Mars, and nobody who isn't a parliamentarians. Thus no opposition. Parliamentarianism does not allow non-Parliamentarianism. It does not allow opposition. You are wrong, on a very basic and fundamental water-is-wet level.

>>3175699
>Parliamentarianism does not allow non-Parliamentarianism.
yeah no shit, that's literally a contradiction. that doesnt mean they put all non-parliamentarians in gas chambers.

>>3175709
No, they just forbid them from participating in politics. How can you insist that "Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies", when Parliamentarianism bans opposing ideologies?

>>3175717
Because it does, and because your claim doesn't make any fucking sense. What would it mean to allow "non-parliamentarians" to hold seats in a representative government? Why would "non-parliamentarians" even want to do such a thing? Your "argument" isn't even an argument, it's a broad generalization you made because you feel that all governments are bad or whatever.

>>3174354
the only other choid from not liking capitalism or fascism is being as literal anti white cuck

>>3175729
If you were a german, would the system allow you to form a party called the National Socialist Party, run for elections, and if you won to form a government, and with your majority parliament seats pass a policy to disband the parliament, and rule as a dictatorship?
Because if such a scenario isn't possible, as the system bans it, then the parliament system clearly BANS and makes impossible non-parliament systems to exist. It doesn't allow opposition. Non-parliament solutions are not allowed to exist. Attempting to reach a non-parliament using the parliament rules and tools IS NOT permitted.

Thus "Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies" is a false statement. In fact the opposite is true -> "Parliamentarianism literally depends on NOT ALLOWING opposing ideologies". You are wrong.

>>3175741
Hard to tell if you are going for comedic relief or if you are just stupid.

>>3175753
>the parliament system clearly BANS and makes impossible non-parliament systems to exist.
>a thing doesn't allow it's opposite
>therefore its wrong
you're retarded

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>>3175758
>your stupid for see leftists for what they really are

>>3175753
>BANS
There are all kinds of retarded little political parties you can join without getting arrested, at least if you live in a PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY

>>3175770
I'm not him but are you in some kind of welfare for mental disability?

>>3175770
>>3175458
>>3175458
"Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies"
"Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies"
"Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies"
"Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies"
>>3175458
>>3175458
>>3175458

Holy fucking shit, its your words. Read what you wrote and what you are defending. Or are you pretending to be retarded for reddit upvotes?

>>3175778
Only if they have no chance to get chairs. The moment they do, they get axed.

>>3175785
Just because it doesnt allow people who want to literally destroy society and the government doesn't mean parliamentarianism isn't based on debate between competing ideologies. I don't even understand what your point is

>>3175800
Its based on debate between the different flavors of parliamentarianists. No opposing ideologies invited to the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7cv8NBbmY&bpctr=1501613132
Please watch this video. I don't think people understand the doctrine as well as they should.

>>3175802
So you're whole argument is that I didn't qualify how extreme the opposing ideologies can be?? Fuck off

>>3175816
My whole argument is that the OPPOSITION of parliamentarianism is non-parliamentarianism, and not parliamentarianism with welfare, or parliamentarianism with double military budget.
Flavors of parliamentarianism are not the opposition to parliamentarianism. Think for 2 minutes. Distance yourself from the argument, ignore who the author of the posts is, and read as a neutral observer. Read this discussion between the two of us as a neutral observer. Consider what you are even arguing for.

>>3175827
>the OPPOSITION of parliamentarianism is non-parliamentarianism,
Ok, so what? The first post I responded to said ALL GOVERNMENTS treat opposition the same, by exterminating them. That's wrong. I'm done with your pedantic undergrad shit m8, go do your homework

>>3170654
>It rejects both the destruction of history

it does?

>After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans began the destruction of the remnants of the city.[9] Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to German plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more than a military transit station.[1][10] The demolition squads used flamethrowers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, the Polish national archives, and other places of interest whose destruction was carried out under the supervision of German scholars. What couldn't be taken by Germans was to be burnt or destroyed. Nothing was to be left of what used to be the city of Warsaw.[2]

>In October 1944 the Załuski Library, the oldest public library in Poland and one of the oldest and most important libraries in Europe (established in 1747), was burned down.[14] Out of about 400,000 printed items, maps and manuscripts, only some 1,800 manuscripts and 30,000 printed materials survived.[14]

>An important collection of books belonging to the Krasiński Estate Library, created in 1844, was largely destroyed in 1944.[16] The collection originally consisted of 250,000 items.[16] During the Uprising, on September 5, 1944, the library's warehouses were shelled by German artillery and burned almost completely.[16] Some of the books were preserved, thrown through windows by the library's staff.[16] The surviving collection was later deliberately burned by the Germans in October 1944 after collapse of the Uprising.[16] About 26,000 manuscripts, 2,500 incunables, 80,000 early printed books, 100,000 drawings and printmakings, 50,000 note and theater manuscripts as well as a large collection of maps and atlases were lost.[16]

>>3175833
I don't give a shit who was fucking you up your ass before I showed up.
You wrote "Parliamentarianism literally depends on opposing ideologies". This is wrong for the already given reasons. You are wrong. Stop being wrong.

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>>3175856
FUCK OF WITH THESE GERMANIC KEKS

>>3175871
ok well thanks for chiming in with your totally underage and not-interesting opinion that the government is mean and bad

>>3175909
Argue your point or concede that you are wrong. Neutral readers already see it, just admit it so you can continue shitting up the thread without this being brought up against you.

>>3175023
So what makes fascism unique?

>>3175951
Things that his definition doesn't include, thus its bad.

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>>3175951
Fascism adapts to the culture of the country, because fascism is fundamentally connected with nationalism and patriotism symbolism.

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>>3170654
>the senseless clinging to it

I can't think of a single ideology that clings to the past more than fascism. They literally mythologize the past and will just make shit up to suit their needs. Not even twist it to suit their needs, just make shit up.

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>>3170745
This seriously. Fascists are the biggest idiots along with commies. Yeah let's look at places like Italy, Spain, and Germany and go, "Sure I wanna try that."

>>3176406
Italy was objectively better under Fascism rule

>>3176413
What then now? Seems to me that not having people bomb your country is objectively better than the other way around.

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>>3176391
traditionalism? conservatism? quoting evola and then characterizing fascism as clinging to the past is a bit ironic, and frankly retarded.

>>3176391
>I can't think of a single ideology that clings to the past more than fascism.
>what is reaction

>>3176464
Only time Italy wasn't plauged by the mafia was under based benny

>>3176486
Futurism was neither integral to fascist ideology or exclusive to it.

>>3176464
fascists would have solved the "refugee" crisis already

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>>3176515
i never claimed it was either, it was an inspiration

>>3174956
North Korea. Juche is Korean National Socialism.

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>>3178358
Close, but then include stalinism too, is a left fascism thing.

>>3170654
shame about the authoritarianism

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>>3174961
This.

>>3174394

>Discourse with your dog

You're thinking of intercourse, and we all know you'd rather that then have to justify why he is a bootlicker and you are 'free'.

For someone presumably so used to having to explain why just calling yourself something doesn't make you it, how exactly is someone less free under the illegalist fascist state in Italy, where nobody gives a damn about the law, than under the rigid, sterile legality of the USSR, where your 'freedom' is legislated for you by a clique of pious Brahmin managers?

>>3175027

>nazi germany was neither national socialist nor fascist. Some kind of abomination of german autism

I like the 'Hitler invented National Socialism' meme, its actually quite fun to see communists completely throw away all the 'rigorous' standards they hold themselves to when 'analysing' other formations and indulge wholly in Great Manism, but just for Hitler-senpai, who they hate for killing them and love for throwing them the largest bone they've had since Bismarck lovingly seduced the SDP.

>>3175075

And you say this as a communist?
I could tart up a criticism of vanguardism and a lucid mind would read the same fucking thing that you just posted there.
This is not at all unique to fascism, and to characterise it as an integral feature of all fascist government, potential and historical, is to scapegoat fascism for the flaws of politics.

>>3176499
Fascism is a reaction.

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>>3170654

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I71VX5RyGA

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it's a bit too authoritarian and reckless for my liking, but aspects of fascism (the attention to aesthetics, the corporatism, the remarkably fluid nature [cause fuck ideology - even though this dynamism brought Musso into an alliance that spelled his end], the revolutionary-yet-traditional element that OP mentioned) are fascinating and right up my alley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Regency_of_Carnaro#Constitution

>>3178753
No, fascism is modernism.
>wanting to create the NEW MAN
>wanting to create the NEW SOCIETY
>fetishization of the state
>either lukewarm religious attitudes or full blown atheism
>no concept of aristocracy
>progressive, modernist art and architecture
Really the only thing fascism has in common with reaction is that they're both authoritarian and they don't like communists.

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>>3178815
>wanting to create the NEW MAN
>wanting to create the NEW SOCIETY

The key part is that Fascism proposes this in response to the corrupt capitalist 'democracies' we have now. In the era when Fascism arose they where very explicit about how they viewed the western democracies as being subverted and corrupted by moneyed interests and the banking class.

This is combined with an another essential element of Fascism, knowledge of the true nature of; and respect for the glorious era of the nation or people's past when they live according to traditional principles and society was virtuous and prosperous.

In lieu of this, the Fascist society is seen as the natural response when people with this knowledge have the opportunity to reorder society and the state as they see fit. Fascism proposes a new man and new society, but this is only because it consists of an intuitive return to what is wise instead of the unwholesomeness of 'liberal democracy'.

>>3174956
Assad's Syria
Israel is centre and very nationalistic
North Korea since the last decade

>>3178841
Well, fascists, communists and reactionaries all agree that modern society is shit. The difference is that reactionaries want to go back in time, while fascists and communists want to go forward.

>>3178843
North Korea is more like an oriental absolutist monarchy than fascism.

>>3176406
Italy and Spain were at their best in the XX century during fascist rule, their current issues are very deeprooted cultural issues or economic fuckery due to EU's autism

>>3174808
Nice American puppetstates m8, so successful

>>3178865
That's every country today that's not shitty enough to fall under Russia or China's Influence

>>3178841
>>3178849
>>3178815

I guess you can say fascism is not conservative (nor liberal for that matter), and modernist with a respect/admiration for tradition.
revolution is not a permanent step 'forward': it's not evolution. revolving does involve change, but it can mean revolving back to a degree...but in the form of REbirth or REjuvenation instead of a REturn (which is a rigid if not permanent maneuver), since REvolution indeed implies constant movement.
it's cyclical, and I wonder if Evola's thing for Eastern spirituality (which present a cyclical view of history) had any influence in that regard.

so this doesn't mean a wholesale return to the past. even fascists know that's impossible and impractical. the world constantly changes.
that's why there's this affinity for futurism: all that new technology was very exciting, at least as a way to return Italy to the level/glory of the Roman Empire. in that sense, I see fascism as very avant-garde.

>>3178391
Yep

>>3178876
>that's why there's this affinity for futurism: all that new technology was very exciting, at least as a way to return Italy to the level/glory of the Roman Empire. in that sense, I see fascism as very avant-garde.

Exactly, futurism and other fascist art movements were about creating a romantic vision of a restored glory achieved partly through technology, and in particular industrial and military modernization. It was about a vision of a futuristic utopian society with high living standards that ran according to traditional principles and valued the family, proper education of the youth, safeguarding the nation etc

>>3170654
I'm not a fan of authoritarian regimes, censorship, tortures and so on. Fascism, communism and other non-democratic regimes aren't very friendly to historians.

>>3179014

In both Germany and Italy it was really only the openly socialist and later in the war openly pro-allies academics who were persecuted.

There were many academics in both countries who agreed with the fascist governments and got along well with them.

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>>3179003
>proper education
he went balls deep with that one. I think it was a good decision though

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>>3179003
>utopian
i really wouldnt call it that, since fascist society is based on struggle and not high living standarts per se. Then again what defines an utopia is subjective

>>3179014
>I'm not a fan of authoritarian regimes
I'm so glad it's not 2012 anymore and people no longer take lolbertarians seriously.

>>3179064
Germany was far harsher on academics and especially artists than Italy.

>>3179064
>academics
Propagandists. Good luck writing about things the government wouldn't like. For example about REAL history of the Ancient Rome, which wasn't that glorious as Mussolini portrayed it.

>>3170685
>Mussolini and fascist Italy alpha as fuck
>can only take a hundred yards of French land from a defeated army.
Sad

>>3170741
>freedom is good and existent because of muh protestant memes

is hitler more well known/controversial than jesus christ?

>>3170654
>It rejects both the destruction of history, and the senseless clinging to it
Fascism/Nazism and similar ideologies are based on myths, not on history. They in fact destroy history and cling to mythical past that never existed.

>>3170852
>utilitarianism
Fuck off, burgerflap

>>3171671
Reality and objective truth don't exist.

>>3179203
Jump off a cliff you postmodernist cuckold.

>>3179207
>the Slave-to-Truth is calling me a 'cuckold'

>>3179200
History is institutionalized mythology, you tool.

>>3179213
So you never studied history? Good to know.

>>3179203
>objective truth don't exist
*jumps off a 10 storey building to my death*
enjoy telling my wife i didn't actually die

>>3179222
>HAHAH YOU JUST HAVENT BEEN INSTITUTIONALLY TOLD THAT THIS IS ALL CORRECT BECAUSE SOMEBODY SED SO AND LE SCIENCE ALSO
Eat shit.
>>3179224
I wouldn't bother myself with a whore.

>>3179222
can I borrow your time machine?

>>3179230
>I wouldn't bother myself with a whore.
keep telling yourself that brainlet

>>3179231
>implying a past exists
>implying experience has any credibility past itself
>>3179235
You're the one.

>>3179014
>I hate all western democracies

>>3179199
Far from it. The problem is that everyday theres new movies, new games coming out that remind the nazis and how evil they were etc. Every day some celebrity will go on a rant about nazis. That way you always have it in the back of your head whether you want it or not. It reminds me of an interview with charles manson in which he said that they wont let the war stop cause they profit of it, one of the few reasonable things he said.

>>3179299
The nazi hate has became comical. If someone says he would want to strangle a baby Napoleon, Churchill, Caesar or even Lenin in his crib, he'd be considered a sick fuck. But saying the same about Hitler is not only acceptable, it's expected.

>>3179313
Its really annoying and it fuels and sometimes even makes logical some stormweenie conspiracy theories. Hitler has become a clown figure after 70 years of pop culture rudicule

>>3175011

You should, because people like him (falseflag or not, there's people who do think like that) devalue the words racism, sexism and so on by throwing it around as an "argument" instead of actual ones.

>>3179329
My favorite is the "HITLER LOOKS LIKE A CARTOON VILLAIN!" argument not realizing it was the cartoon villains who got patterned after Hitler rather than other way around.
>clown figure
Exactly. If you read the accounts of anyone who remembers Hitler from when he was alive, you'd realized he was viewed as an almost magical being. I'm not some esoteric cuckold, just saying how his contemporaries viewed him. Carl Jung considered him a seer said his rise to prominence was something humanity hasn't experienced since Muhammad, and compared rise of national socialism to the rise of islam. Even Stalin who became his mortal enemy was enamored with him.
Fast forward 70 years and suddenly he's an autistically screeching retard who shat his pants, fucked little kids and snorted pervitin.

>>3179352
I try to be neutral, you know? View him as just a politician. Hes not the devil but hes not the second coming either.
But the media tend to demonise anything right wing. For example, in the 80's we had Reagan and Thatcher, who were just you know, reasonably conservative and immediately "totalitarian dystopia" novels, comics and such, like v for vendetta sold like hot bread. Now, with big H this has been going on non stop for decades and doesnt seem to die out

>>3179141
>i really wouldnt call it that, since fascist society is based on struggle and not high living standarts per se.

Utopian in the domestic sense, fascist Italy enacted reforms in workers rights and finance. They put a bunch of social orangizations that let people go to theaters, carnivals, dances, etc for free or low cost. The corpratist aspect was partly motavated by the desire to unite the classes and remove class competition. With regards to Italian citizens that supported the government (i.e. most of the pop. of Italy) the gov. tried their best to make life easier and prevent them from being exploited.

>>3174956
China

>>3174956
North Korea

>>3179352
>of you read accounts bu anyone
>quotes ONE person who happens to spout pseudoscientific nonsense as relevant

>>3179386
>thatcher and reagan
>reasonably conservative
Lmao. Its like you watched a youtube video of them speaking some nice words to come to your conclusions.