IS CHRISTIANITY IDOLATRY? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z

>>3147765
>christianity is idolatry
Bump for interest. Seems legit.

>>3147765
>I can't think of any.
So you just blatantly said this is a troll thread.

Ahhh, fuck it.

This guy surely knows what Christianity teaches, but he's dishonestly misrepresenting the religion and taking advantage of the ignorance of retarded "cultural Christians." Jesus never had any part of God's power bestowed upon him. He isn't an avatar, he isn't a representation, and he isn't a separate being from God. He is God the Son.

His arguments might work against Arians and other non-trinitarians, but they don't really apply to orthodox Christian theology.

>>3147765
for it to be idolatry doesn't it have to be, well, an idol? I don't think a human manifestation of God would count as an idol, not to mention that christians can't actually bow before jesus himself and worship him. in practical terms he's just as distant as a non-human God. not to defend the nonsense that is the trinity, but from within the framework of christian theology, worshiping jesus is definitely not idolatry or worship of a being other than God, since he is God.

>>3147888
1. God exists as an entity.
2. God says not to worship anything other than God.
3. Jesus exists as an entity.
4. People worship Jesus.

Where is he wrong? These all seem true statements.

>>3147893
You could say that the icon, or the cross, or the temple, or the priest are all manifestations of God, so its okay to worship them.
People do worship and pray to pictures and to priests, how is this not idolatry?

>>3147896
The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. Try again.

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>>3147888
>you are wrong because trinity beats you
>>3147893
>trinity is retarded and thus you are wrong

>>3147905
So you agree with all those statements.
You worship an entity that is not God, when God specifically said not to do that.
Are you defending yourself with the semantic argument that a human can't be an idol?

>>3147907
>you are wrong because trinity beats you
He's wrong because he's set up a straw man. If he wanted to argue against Christianity, he'd accurately represent what Christianity actually says. Instead he (or perhaps you) is arguing against a form of Arianism.

>>3147911
>So you agree with all those statements.
No. I'm not a Christian. Can we get back on topic or is this just going to be a skit enacting every logical fallacy in the book?

>>3147901
>You could say that the icon, or the cross, or the temple, or the priest are all manifestations of God, so its okay to worship them.
you can't with christian theology.

>People do worship and pray to pictures and to priests, how is this not idolatry?
christians do not pray to priests, but some do to pictures/icons of saints. I think it's hard to argue this isn't idolatry, though this criticism would not apply to protestants. catholics will sometimes say however that they are not praying to the saint, they are basically meditating on the saint's life, deeds, etc (ignoring that canonization of a saint requires miracles to be attributed to the saint) so if we take them at their word then some catholics are not idolaters

>>3147920
How is "Oh please saint X, saint protector of sailors (but totally not God of he sea, that'd be pagan), please help my son return safely from his trip, please guide his ship, here's a coin for your picture" in any way meditating on a martyr's life?
Its praying to a minor god from a pantheon of gods, with the jewish God posing as Zeus.

>>3147917
>Can we get back on topic

We are on topic. If you agree with statements 1 to 4 in this post >>3147896, from them follows that worshiping Jesus goes against God, and is by definition idolatery.

>>3147896
*Jesus exists as an entity that is a subset of God

>>3147925
But Jesus was a man of flesh and blood, and he was born, and he died.
Are you saying God has these qualities as well?

>>3147921
I agree with you with that specific prayer, but presumably the catholics who claim this are not saying these prayers

>>3147933
Its what in my experience people do, they pray to specific saints that are supposed to cover specific parts of life.
You can conduct an experiment, go to temples and observe what people do. You will probably come to the same conclusions.

>>3147929
again, you need to keep in mind christian theology when arguing against christianity. christian theology states that jesus is both fully human and fully God. I'm not saying this makes sense, but it is the belief you have to argue against. if you're going to argue against christian theology being illogical and convoluted is a better charge than idolatry

>>3147934
yes, they do generally. but I'm telling you what some, key word some, catholics claim. they could be a minority (very likely are), but they exist

>>3147938
>christian theology states that jesus is both fully human and fully God

But this statement was made specifically to do damage control due to the argument in this thread, and not all agree to it.
It doesn't come from the holy texts either, its made up because people saw a flaw and needed to correct it somehow.

>>3147941
this we can agree on

Saints and Mother prayers are really really weird to me but in the end when asked how they allow anyone but Jesus to be the intercessor while he himself said there's only one and it's him, those priests are usually 'we don't really preach to pray for them but we all respect them so deeply it just can't be helped. Also it's culture.". My loliporn is also culture, what an argument. durr

We're reaching levels of fedora I never even thought possible.

>>3148283
We're reaching levels of non-argumentation I never even thought possible.

>>3147765
Catholicism is not christianity

>>3148288
What's the point of arguing? This is just another """"enlightened"""" leftwing atheist manlet out of a single mother household that cherrypicks the bible saying "SEE, SEE? WE'RE MORE CHRISTIAN THAN YOU ARE YOU DUMB CHRISTARD"

>>3148303
We're reaching levels of non-argumentation I never even thought possible, again.

>>3148303
>This is just another """"enlightened"""" leftwing atheist manlet out of a single mother household that cherrypicks the bible saying "SEE, SEE? WE'RE MORE CHRISTIAN THAN YOU ARE YOU DUMB CHRISTARD"

Wow, look at all these NOT ARGUMENTS.

>>3147923
>If you agree with statements 1 to 4 in this post >3147896, from them follows that worshiping Jesus goes against God
fucking hell people are retarded. Christians believe Jesus is God. That's literally the entire point of Christianity.

>>3147765

Christianity is not idolatry.

Catholicism is idolatry.

It's important to distinguish between the two, as the one has murdered tens of millions of the other.

>>3147765
>Can anyone give good arguments against such a claim? I can't think of any.

That there is a real God, and real worshipers worship the real God in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.

It's not an argument; it's just the truth.

>>3149508
>Christians believe Jesus is God. That's literally the entire point of Christianity.

Any good christian would disagree with this statement.
God and Jesus are clearly different entities. I think most christians will argue Jesus is part of God, not that Jesus and God are the same.

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>>3149507
>>3148316
>>3148288
none of these posts are arguments

>>3147923
Or the more obvious conclusion, that Jesus is God.

>>3149533
No Christian would disagree with the statement "Jesus is God".

Because then he wouldn't be a Christian, now, would he.

>>3147765
>Christians don't worship God, instead they worship an avatar of God, an idol.
An avatar is not idol, moron.

>>3149533
>I think most christians will argue Jesus is part of God, not that Jesus and God are the same.

"I and the Father are One."
"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

I don't know any Christians who argue with Jesus about what Jesus says.

>>3149542
Aye, but neither is Jesus an avatar.

>>3149541
Christians are followers of the prophet Christ, like Mohammedans are followers of the prophet Mohamed.
And like Mohammedans (today "muslims" for political correctness), Christians should know that the prophet is not the God.
Thats why Arabs don't pray to Mohamed, they pray to God. Pretty simple stuff.

>>3149542
>"its not an idol!", the man said, and held strongly his wooden cross idol, praying to it

what part of the old testament and oral torah say that the mossiach was going to literally be God?

>>3149557
>prophet Christ

Jesus is God, and created the universe.

So, no.

>>3149621
>Jesus created the universe
>Jesus created Jesus

>>3149620
The part where Abraham told Isaac that God would provide Himself a Lamb for the slaughter.

Then, so you wouldn't miss it, a ram, and not a lamb, was caught in the thicket and sacrificed.

Oh, wait, you still missed it.

Maybe you also missed Job saying that God Himself must provide a mediator between God and Man, if anyone is to be able to bring a petition to God, and put one hand on God, and the other hand on Man.

Oh, wait, you missed that too.

Did you miss the inference where the messiah would die, and at the same time set upon an eternal throne? Yeah, you missed that too.

What about in the beginning, where God said that the messiah, the seed of the woman, would crush the devil's skull while the devil merely bruised the messiah's heel?

Guess you missed that one too.

Come to think of it, you missed all of the prophets, and Moses (Deut. 13) all promising that the messiah would do things that only God could do. Heal the blind, the lame, the mute, the deaf, the lepers, forgive sins.......

Yeah, you missed it all.

>>3149627
Jesus is not part of this universe, nor was He situated in this universe when He created this universe.

Muslims.

Not even once.

>>3149649
Jesus was a flesh and blood entity, he was clearly made of stuff, and he couldn't have created the stuff he himself was made of.

How exactly can Jews say that Jesus is an idol, when they also believe that there will be a Messiah?

I get that they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, but if it's true of Christianity, it will also be true of whatever Messiah the Jews would accept.

>>3149644
This is in the same tier as pointing to a cloud that looks like a bunny.

>>3149665
Jews are okay with a messiah, they aren't okay with worshiping the messiah instead of God.

>>3149659
God, who made the universe, who created DNA, could not manage to come down from heaven in the flesh, and live like a man, and die for the sins of mankind.

That could not happen.

Even though it did.

The Jews accusing christians of idolatry, that's a laugh.

Maybe if they didn't worship money so much I would take them more seriously.

>>3149667
Oh, yes, very vague. Abraham says that God will provide Himself a Lamb for the slaughter.

And Jesus, God, the Lamb of God, is given up to slaughter on Passover, Nisan 14, 32 AD.

yes, very bunny like.

>>3149672
No, no they are not. They killed their messiah, or at least they thought they did.

They wanted another Jude the Hammer, or a war king to rid them of their oppressors.

>>3149677
Jews, thy god is Mammon.

>>3149672
But the Messiah would be God, wouldn't he?

>>3149681
>god tells abraham that he will give him a lamb
>a ram magically appears in the bushes nearby
>but it was a ruse! he actually meant that 2000 years later he will send an artificial human to get executed
>because a ram is not a lamb, but a human is a lamb

And that could looks like a dragon!

>>3149577
I thought we were talking avatars?
Why are you bringing up crosses?

>>3149672
That's because, according to them, ..... there is no messiah yet to worship. logic is #mindblowing for retards

>>3149697
Its because even if there was a messiah, you are meant to worship God, not the messiah. Don't make an idol of the messiah.

>>3149659
So you're saying God isn't omnipotent?
Sounds pretty darn blasphemous to me M83.

>>3148297
>>3149524
Catholicism has always been the first and most populous sect of Christianity. To say it is not a type of Christianity is categorically false.

A "christian" is anyone who believes in the divinity of the man Jesus Christ. No other requirements exist based on the dictionary definition.

>>3149692
I see you also missed the part where Abraham saw the Day of the Lord, and was joyful about it.

Yes, you missed everything.

Because certainly the lambs that were slaughtered at the first Passover, the Exodus, and whose blood was smeared in a cross-like pattern on the doors of the Hebrews for the angel of death to pass over their houses and not kill the firstborn therein, that was all just a coincidence.

Nothing to do with Jesus, the Lamb of God, being slaughtered on Passover, having presented Himself blameless to the priests on Nisan 10, and slaughtered on Nisan 14.

Not a foreshadowing at all.

All just coincidence.

>>3149702
And when the messiah turns out to be God? What then?

In before Muhammadan uttering that bowing to polytheist piece of meteor is not idolatry.

Shedding tiers for a piece of wall isn't, as isn't kissing the crucifix.

>>3149706
That would make all muslims christian, as they do recognize him as a messenger of God.

>>3149706
It's a cult, yes. A big, old cult that started in Babylon.

To say it has anything to do with Christianity is ludicrous and reveals an almost complete ignorance of history.

>>3149644
>you missed that too.
This rhetorical device is not compelling, and makes your argument less trustworthy.

>>3149714
Jews thrive on coincidences, they're practically a fundamental part of what it means to be a Jew.

>>3149718
What is the messiah turns out to be my dick? What then?
Maybe stop making up scenarios, roleplayer.

>>3149706
Your definition makes the devil a Christian.

Is the devil a Christian?

>>3149733
Also makes God a christian, which is funny to think of.

>>3149728
Man said there were no references....I cited many....his argument there are none was chalked down to his utter and complete ignorance on the matter.

>>3149729
I don't care what Jews thrive on; look at them. their religion drove them insane. They killed their own God.

>>3149688
no

>>3149731
You're playing the what if game, son, not me.

The messiah is God. And has to be God, to do the things the messiah is to do. At least the Jews pondered that there must be two messiahs, as one messiah could not both die and establish an eternal throne.

Because they failed to see that God is the messiah, and that Jesus rose from the dead to continue doing the things the messiah is to do.

>>3149738
People say that. It trips me out. Was Buddha a Buddhist?

>>3149723
Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He was a prophet and a human being, nothing more.

>>3147765
Jews need Jesus to be a farce ...... BECAUSE THEY KILLED HIM! #duh

Not to mention, the real "chosen ones" / "real jews" are the body of the church of CHRIST.

Not to mention, the whole Jewish religion is Rabbinical and based on works ... and Jesus taught: And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

>>3149750
Which is why they are doomed.

>>3149725
The protestant reformation (your multitude of "true Christian" churches) never would have happened if Catholicism never existed. Most of protestant teachings are based off of core principles established by the Catholic church. You're the one who is ignoring history.

>>3149750
Muslims believe that Jesus will lead them against the forces of darkness any day now.
Read what ISIS says, they are waiting for their enemies to kill all but the strongest 2000 men, then Jesus will show up and will lead them to fight against the devil, and they will win.
Jesus us to the muslims the general of the forces of haven, and the radical muslims are on the look for him right fucking now. They do think him divine.

>>3149733
It's not my definition, it's society's. Anyone can look it up.

Also seeing how there is no empirical proof the devil exists, you can't really say what his attributes are. At least beyond your LARPing fantasies.

>>3149775
>no empirical proof
>in a thread about skydaddyism

Wew lad.

>>3149740
>Man said there were no references....I cited many....his argument there are none was chalked down to his utter and complete ignorance on the matter.
Not talking about your references or argument, which may be sound for all I know. Just saying your rhetorical device makes you sound dumb, and like a bully. There's no need to resort to petty insults.

>>3149761
Says you.

>>3149733
Nonsense, .... they have to accept the crucifixion and actual _"resurrection"_ of christ

>>3149790
>which may be sound for all I know
They are akin to Star Wars fans making up lore for Wookiepedia by over analyzing every word.
A ram is not a lamb, but a man is a lamb, because after we heard this tale for 2000 years we call our children lambs. God created himself and he made proof that proves itself to prove it.

>>3149773
>lumping all Muslims into one group
>equating the ideology of fringe extremists to an entire group of people

Not all Muslims believe in Jesus as much as you seem to like to think they do. Also your spelling is atrocious.

>>3149786
somebody had to say it

>>3147765
What I don't get is why idolatry is even an issue. It's not like you think the fucking statue is god, you think it's a representation of god.
Why is it blasphemous to praise god in front of its representation rather than in a generic setting?

>>3149823
ISIS has the purest, by the book, no bullshit, no politics, pristine islam. They are reformed and literal fundamental islamists.
If you want to discuss islam, look at them. Everyone who disagrees with them is a bad muslim.

Now, I prefer bad muslims, because they are compatible with civilization somewhat, and the worst they are at islam the better then are for me. But when discussing the faith, ISIS is the way to go.

>>3149840
>Why is it blasphemous to praise god in front of its representation rather than in a generic setting?

Because God said so. No other reason.

>>3149644

I can literally recognise you in every Christian thread

>>3150015
I pity you.

>>3149770
It was a Catholic civil war, and Christianity just rode right by it.

>>3149775
Society. The world. Whose god is the devil.

>>3149797
Says God.

>>3149803
Which were lacking in the above description.

>>3147765
Catholics aren't Christians

>>3149840
If God says wear orange shoes, wear orange shoes.

To answer your question, the "gods" that you would otherwise worship instead of the one true God will lead you into hell, and God does not want that to happen.

>>3150015
I can too.

>>3149840
Because if God is One (as all monotheistic religions believe), the one Source, sustainer and creator of the universe, then to worship any other thing is an affront to all there is. Moreover, if God is holy, then to approach Him in any way which detracts from His majesty or distorts who he is, then it's blasphemous. It's sort of like talking to an idle sketch of your mother when she's right there on the phone. It's incredibly insulting.

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>>3147765
>Christians don't worship God, instead they worship an avatar of God, an idol.

I don't know what you mean by "avatar of God" - most Christians don't worship any gods thanks to their "Holy" Trinity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkf1sHFvYO8

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>>3149840
>>3149849
>>3150109
>>3150197

>What I don't get is why idolatry is even an issue. It's not like you think the fucking statue is god, you think it's a representation of god.
>Why is it blasphemous to praise god in front of its representation rather than in a generic setting?

It's not blasphemous - the Torah is blasphemy. Why would you take the word of a raping, plundering, psycho-killer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7hfZLTjTSs

>>3150197
>then to worship any other thing is an affront to all there is
how could an infinite "source" give a shit what thoughts a human has, whether some human "believes" in this source thing, why is it an "affront" to this aforementioned infinite singularity entity

seems like textbook projection of your own human failings onto your supposed "infinite" god
since you get mad at other people, god also must simultaneously share your anger
is there anything more transparent? it's exactly like the all those kings who claim that god wanted their armies to kill their enemies, or sports players thanking god for winning the big game

>>3150703
>no equivalent
Objectivly incorrect.
The Jewish and Christian god is literally the equivalent to Allah in every way.

>>3150721
Thats the same God, you imbecile.

>>3150640
The torah......that God gave to Moses.....is blasphemy......

>>3150726
Nope. allah is Ba'al.

The Arabs have never worshiped the God of the Jews, and they laugh at idiots like you who think they do.

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>>3150721
>>3150703

>Objectivly incorrect.
>The Jewish and Christian god is literally the equivalent to Allah in every way.

The Christian god is Osiris. Most "Christians" are mutated Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV89c0kMpU

>>3150726
That's exactly what I said dumbass, what did you think I said

>>3150733
Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God.

>>3150733
You're understanding of mythology is even more rednck. Ba'al literally just means "lord".

If anything your JHWH is actually closer to Ba'al than what the Muslims cooked up.

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>>3150730
>The torah......that God gave to Moses.....is blasphemy......

Yes, obviously.

"This statement is the word of God and the Torah is not."

Fucking retard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWCKHtZTOuw

>>3147934
>pray to
Pray WITH. God is the one who does the miracle. The saint pleads the petitioner's case with God because they're already in heaven.

>>3149577
By this argument, any symbols whatsoever are idols and Muslims literally pray to super-abstract tiles, making them idolaters. The only way to NOT be an idolater by this logic is to be born blind, so that you never form visual concepts related to a deity.

This is literally how an autist would apply the concept of idolatry.

>>3150771
Why this bureaucracy, is God to busy to hear your "case"?

>>3150831
or maybe just not clutch trinkets and magical talismans when you pray

>>3150771
God always ministers to each soul on a personal one on one basis.

There is no biblical evidence or encouragement to seek saints in heaven to intercede on our behalf.

Through the holy spirit I have God telling me to come boldly into His presence.

>>3150741
Nope. It's all about Jesus.

Christian: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Jew: Jesus was a false prophet.
Muslim: Jesus was a prophet, but not God, did not die, did not raise from the dead.

If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father.

Neither Jew nor Muslim has the Son; therefore neither Jew nor Muslim has the Father.

>>3149725
Jack Chick plz go.

>>3150759

Ba'al Chemosh, then, if you'd like. Doesn't really matter; demons are demons no matter what title you give them.

>>3150768
No clue what you're on about, but you're kind of a dipshit.

>>3150857
May as well call me Alexander Hislop and Dave Hunt too.

>>3150856
What does this have to do with them worshiping the same God? You are just telling tales, and posing as if they are arguments.

>>3150856
>If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father.

Lel. You sound so dumb

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>>3150865
>No clue what you're on about, but you're kind of a dipshit.

Well, that's why not every Tom, Dick and Harry can be a credible theologian.

Jesus said Jews worship the devil 2000 years ago and it's still true today - except now the "Christians" and Muslims also worship the devil.

Enjoy hell!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ0MGj1jAoc

>>3150856
That's circular though, it's the Christian doctrine that supposes a "son of god" category in the first place, so of course the Christians invent the requirement and then immediately plug in the fulfilling aspect.
All this bluster amounts to a tautology, can't you see?

>>3150871
That the Jews and Muslims worship no God at all.

That was fairly clear.

>>3150570
>>3150640
>>3150734
Why haven't the mods banned you yet? I see you in every thread about the Abrahamic faiths, spouting /x/-tier schizophrenic gibberish about how Christianity is secretly Egyptian and you're literally God. You are a cancer on this board.

>>3150888
Why are you so blatantly uninformed about the most basic elements of the subjects that you claim to care so deeply about?
You can't possibly think this makes people take you seriously. No one is this clueless.

>>3150879
Yeah, the Word of God is so dumb. You're the bright boy, ain'tcha.

1 John 2
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Jews: Liars
Muslims: Liars

Which of them have the Son? Neither.

>>3150880
Jesus railed against the system of Pharisaical Judaism that the Jews developed in Babylonian captivity, not the torah, not the Law.

Holy shit you're ignorant as fuck, aren't you.

>>3150891
I'm surprised you were able to decipher that much information from his posts

>>3150884
"Sons of God" is not foreign to the Jews; that's what they call the angels.

Muslims will believe anything so long as there is a knife to their throat, and there's always a knife to their throat. They believe God is too perfect to have any children, as though their idea of what God can and cannot do holds sway with God.

But what do you expect from literal devil worshipers?

>>3150898
People who think they worship God, but think that Jesus was a false prophet, or just a man, are fooling themselves.

It's really hard for you to think, isn't it.

>>3150900
Once again this is purely circular reasoning. I think it's funny you refuse to acknowledge this.

>>3150833
The idea is God is "more likely" to listen to someone who is ALREADY in Heaven, and therefore is clean of earthly sin, than someone on Earth who is still tainted by the Original Sin.
>>3150848
That's not what a rosary is, and rosaries aren't used for Mass. Rosaries are a memory aid, to help you remember the number and proper order in which you recite the prayers and mysteries. They have no supernatural powers ascribed to them. Do you consider reciting a prayer from a psalmbook idolatry too?

>>3150909
Senile great-aunt lived with my family, I'm used to the signal-to-noise ratio of crazies.

>>3150918
You just define god as "what i worship", and you define correct worship as "how i worship".
You are wrong on a very basic, fundamental level. You are wrong on a level where most people are automatically and instinctively correct. Its like breathing or walking to most of us. How do you manage?

>>3150931
>The idea is God is "more likely" to listen to someone who is ALREADY in Heaven, and therefore is clean of earthly sin, than someone on Earth who is still tainted by the Original Sin.
So the Infinite Omnipotent Omniscient God is beholden to the same temporal and mental constraints of human institutions? He needs advisors to sway his decisions?

>>3150945
Even religious nuts still can't shake the idea that God is a guy. Despite their talk, they can't think of him as an all encompassing energy or building block or idea, has to be a guy.

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>>3150903
>Jesus railed against the system of Pharisaical Judaism that the Jews developed in Babylonian captivity, not the torah, not the Law.
>Holy shit you're ignorant as fuck, aren't you.

LMFAO - yeah, Jesus was pro-genocide like Moses. You should stick with that position.

Loser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC1aGOcijsg

>>3150945
So I guess by that reasoning, there's no reason for anyone to pray at all.

>>3150903

Don't bother he's admitted to being diagnosed with psychosis. And believes that his Reddit posts prove he is God.

...

Just ignore and report because it's spam.

>>3150958
You'd be correct. Its the logical conclusion of the texts. We don't need religion, or priests, or temples. or prayers, we just need to be nice people.

>>3150963
>Don't bother he's admitted to being diagnosed with psychosis. And believes that his Reddit posts prove he is God.

If this is true, you writing it down and treating him like that is very dangerous for him, and you shouldn't do it.

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>>3150945
Why the fuck are you looking for objective answers about god? How are you that mentally deficient?

Not him, but can't you see almost all his posts are prefacing the fact that it's a presumption. You cunts are the worst, acting as if these people who are speculating have the legit 100% answers.

You are a fool.

>>3150955
I feel the same way, these religions are rooted in the homo sapiens hypersocial instincts, we want the supernatural world be be a "person" to conform to our natural instincts.

No surprise even the monotheistic ones can't help having this "Son of God" contrivance.

>>3150945
No, that guy's an idiot.

>>3150929
Because you have no clue what you're talking about.

Jesus = God

If you say Jesus is not God, then you're not worshiping God. You're worshiping something else, like the devil, or yourself, or your idea of God.

>>3150939
God is a title that belongs to whomever created the universe.

Jesus created the universe.

Jesus is God.

>>3150974
>"It doesn't make sense, so it must be true!"

t. Kierkegaard, great philosopher

>>3150957
>Jesus was pro-genocide

What are you babbling about now?

>>3150974
Getting angry and swearing because someone asks you a question is probably the worst way to portray your supposedly pure wholesome perfect faith.

>>3150980
>>3150983
You claim your view is objective truth, while supposedly also claiming earlier that it can't be.
You are full of shit.

>>3150974
It's a decent quote; is a God that is small enough to be thoroughly understood large enough to worship?

>>3150991
He is already blaspheming for writing god and not G*d, with a capital and censored.

>>3150945
The Infinite Omnipotent Omniscient God also had to send down His only Son to save mankind from sin, and had a Son, and many other things that don't strictly "make sense" to humans. God moves in mysterious ways.

>>3150983
Are you just making up random shit now

>>3150992
I claim God is objective truth, and I claim that I believe God, what God says, what God is doing, and what God wants. As revealed in the Word of God, the bible.

If I post my own opinion, I try to label it as such.

>>3150998
>it doesn't make a lick of sense, but thats okay, because it doesn't need to make sense
>in fact it not making sense makes it more believable; if it made sense it must've been the devils work

t. Kierkegaard, great 4chan shitposter

>>3150996
The only blasphemy that is unforgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and that is Unbelief. Attributing the witness of the Holy Spirit, Who declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, a liar will end a person in hellfire forever.

>>3151000
No, it's in the bible. When we say Jesus is God, we mean Jesus is the creator of the universe.

>>3150991
But I am not him though, can't you read?

>>3150984
>implying
He says it doesn't make sense so why are you reading and digesting dogmatic faith. Denying dogmatic faith doesn't deny the existence of a creator or god or the faith that all human beings experience. You understand dogmatic religions offer objective descriptions of god, correct?

You're a fool. You are looking for the low hanging fruit mate.

>>3147896
Jesus is God, or at least that's what Christians believe. If you want to argue that he isn't or against the trinity, then that is a completely different argument.

>>3150987
If I remember correctly from shit he said a month or so ago, Christians are bad people because they didn't worship Caesar as God, because Jesus was Caesar and a fascist who wanted to conquer the world by the sword, or something. There's so much mental noise in his posts it's difficult to parse, but the crux of his complex is that he's literally a God-King, like the Pharaohs or Caesars, has divine powers, and should rule the world.

>>3151015
>kierkegaard is low hanging fruit
>disproving religion doesn't disprove god, he still exists

This is why religious people are laughed out of debate halls.

>>3151014
Colossians 1
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

>>3150741
Yes and no. In a historical sense, all three lay claim to the God of Abraham. And that's about where the similarities end.

There is no possible universe in which trinitarianism and tawheed are both true. In this sense, they are not at all the same god.

>>3151018
The cognitive dissonance in his head must be deafening.

>>3151019
Religion, religio, systems of bondage, are man made.

Disproving religion is a good thing, because they all fail to do what they purport to do: reach up to God, make man like God, pierce the heavens. They all fail.

Their failure is not a reflection on God, but on the vast gulf between man and God.

>>3150998
>The Infinite Omnipotent Omniscient God
>somehow has a "Son of God" like some greek pantheon

huge red flag, reeks of blatant revision by cultists

>>3151022
And by a twist of the facts, the muslims claim hold of Abraham's god, but the Abraham that lived in Ur of the Chaldeas.

Not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is the Jewish/Christian God.

>>3151010
There's a reason it's called "the MYSTERY of FAITH", not "The COMMON SENSE of FACT".

>>3151034
Is it okay for God to have a Son, or no?

Who gets to make that call? You?

>>3151019
So when I asked "can't you read" the answer is no? Because you are going for the low hanging fruit by knocking back someones atypical description of god as you are believing it to be objective, you're a retard.

>kierkegaard is low hanging fruit
>disproving religion doesn't disprove god, he still exists

Why would disproving the dogmatic religions deny design?

I suggest you start with fear and trembling.

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>>3151018
>If I remember correctly from shit he said a month or so ago, Christians are bad people because they didn't worship Caesar as God, because Jesus was Caesar and a fascist who wanted to conquer the world by the sword, or something.

Now you're getting it - I would imagine the title "King" is more Monarchist than "fascist." But, like the Pope said, "Fascism is pagan worship of the state."

'Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.' - Mark 12:17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orz_II04RU0

>>3151033
If religions are all false, why even assume any of their premises, why cling to the "God" concept at all. Why arbitrarily retain any of the nonsensical presuppositions, why give them such deference.

>>3151044
The pope, the literal successor to the emperor, is your go-to for what is pagan and what is not.

>>3151040
I'm saying it's an obvious contrivance, and it conflicts with these vaunted and enlightened "characteristics" of God as somehow a perfect astral being while also having this caveman-tier "son"

>>3151051
It's an excellent question. As systems of control, they would be useful for people who wanted to be in control of other people. And what more control can you have than telling people you personally can get them into heaven, and you personally can keep them out?

>>3151072
Tell me what about the nature of the Trinity makes God less than perfect.

>>3147765

Jews worship a wall.

>>3151079
Pretty much. And then after the wall, they'll worship the Antichrist.

And then, finally, 7 years later, they'll see the one whom they pierced descending from the clouds in glory, and they will mourn as though they lost their only son.

>>3151068
No, he is, because he's God. But seriously, don't bother, he's a nutjob. Anything reasonable he says is an accident.

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>>3151068
>The pope, the literal successor to the emperor, is your go-to for what is pagan and what is not.

The pope is a nobody - always has been and always will be. He'll spend eternity in hell like all his predecessors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwCaHT0lcVo

>>3151077
It was fabricated by the early church to justify revising the popular Jesus figure into the mythos.

>>3151091
That's okay. He's the kind of person I'm supposed to interact with.

>>3151034
It's analogical language. Christians do not claim that God has some kind of natural son that at one time did not exist and was born. God the Son has always been God, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will. There is no divine "family tree" in Christian cosmology. The Son is the same infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, not sharing in but a part, or as some separate entity, but the whole in oneness.

>>3151101
and your evidence of that is....

>>3151082
When the Seleucid Greeks ruled Palestine, Jews worshiped Zeus, when they came out of Egypt naked, the first thing they did was worship a Cow. Their religion in a nutshell is; God sends a solitary prophet to turn them away from their pagan polytheist ways, time after time they turn to foreign and alien ways all the way until Christ, then they killed Christ. Their history is rebellion and falling away. The wall they worship today was built by Greeks or Persians.

>>3151101
John 1:1 says that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God.
In John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one.
In John 14:9 He said that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father.
In Colossians 1:15 Paul wrote that Jesus is the (visible) image of the invisible God.
In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is called the exact representation of God’s glory
In Hebrews 1:8 God Himself called Jesus God.
God’s Spirit is presumed to be one and the same with God just as your spirit is presumed to be one and the same with you. So if God and Jesus are one and the same, and God and His Spirit are one and the Same, then the three are one.

There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-6). Yet there are three persons presented as deity in Scripture: the Father (John 6:27; Colossians 1:3), the Son (John 1:1-3, 14; 8:24; 20:28-29; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Samuel 23:2-3; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Lastly, these three are presented as distinct persons (John 8:16-18; Luke 11:1; 3:21-22; Galatians 4:6). Thus from Scripture we learn that although there is one God, there are three distinct persons who are deity. So the Trinity is the biblical position to hold to once one examines what Scripture teaches.

>>3151110
Actually, they fought their balls off to not worship Zeus.

>>3151101
Except Jesus directly and explicitly said he was God, and all forms of Christianity agree on this point by definition.
>inb4 why trust the Bible?
If you aren't willing to even consider the Bible, you are completely cutting yourself off from the Abrahamic tradition, regardless of what you claim.

>>3151106
>Although there is much debate as to whether the beliefs of the Apostles were merely articulated and explained in the Trinitarian Creeds,[37] or were corrupted and replaced with new beliefs,[38][39] all scholars recognize that the Creeds themselves were created in reaction to disagreements over the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These controversies took some centuries to be resolved.

>Of these controversies, the most significant developments were articulated in the first four centuries by the Church Fathers[37] in reaction to Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism. Adoptionism was the belief that Jesus was an ordinary man, born of Joseph and Mary, who became the Christ and Son of God at his baptism. In 269, the Synods of Antioch condemned Paul of Samosata for his Adoptionist theology, and also condemned the term homoousios (ὁμοούσιος, "of the same being") in the sense he used it.[40]

Also
>christian suddenly valuing evidence to support claims
lol

>>3151114
Bullshit, the Maccabees weren't the majority, the majority sided with the cities. The Macabean revolt was the same scenario as previous prophets turning the populous away from foreign gods.

Even the Maccabees were Hellenized and ruled as Hellenes to various degrees.

>>3151125
I don't follow or cite creeds, at all, ever.

I gave you bible verses.

>>3151126
Don't care; the silent majority never matters. Jude the Hammer and boys fought their balls off to not be hellanized, and they were rewarded for their efforts. It's a shame for you to come and just mention that Jews worshiped Zeus without any back story. It's not like nobody has ever heard of Hanukkah.

>>3147896
God and Jesus are two descriptions of the same entity. Can you even trinity? Like seriously its not that hard to understand.

>>3151130
(And Zeus is just Adam, deified by the Greeks.)

>>3150833
Does it matter? The point is that its not 'hurr durr polytheism'

>>3147921

The problem is, you're looking at all the Saints and Miracles and Patrons stuff from a very pagan point of view.

When a pagan worships an Idol, he atributes the Idol its own power and will: if a miracle ensues, it is by the Idol's power and the Idol's will.

Instead, for christians in general -and catholics in particular-, God is the one and only source of power and will. When Saint Whoever, Holy Patron of Pizza Deliverers, performs a miracle, it is actually God, showing his power and will through the flesh of a human being, for reasons we don't need to know.

Even if you get rid of all the Catholic paraphernalia, you got other examples in the same religion, like for example Moses. Moses performs magic stuff, yet it is made clear he hasn't acquired superpowers, it's just God acting through him and his stick.

So, we can all agree that Saints are a marketing move from the catholic church, because it's a religion that doesn't want you to have a too direct relation with God and his Word without the intervention of Church approved intermediaries, yet they want you to have something to feel related, to feel next to, so they give you a human being, with a job similar to yours, and a direct connection to God -the one they don't want you to have-. Then, the catholic may argue that, when praying to a Saint, you are actually asking for God himself to act through him, and thus it is not idolatry.

>>3151128
You don't know your own religion developed and evolved?
You're not curious to discover what historical events informed and shaped the formation of the ideology that you claim is the most important aspect of your life?

>>3150833
No, they're pagans and think dead people can hear their prayers.

Their prayers go nowhere.

>>3151138
Actually, you're the delusional one. All Marian apparitions and "miracles" are demonic in nature and intended to draw you closer to the "mother of God" and the "Queen of Heaven".

God forbid communicating with the dead.

The question you've never asked yourself is "did God know they were alive in the afterlife, when He forbid communicating with the dead?"

If we got rid of all of the Catholic paraphernalia, paganism would decrease by 75%.

>>3151139
I'm not a Catholic.

My "religion" started on the Day of Pentecost, 32 AD.

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>>3151138
>>3151141

>When a pagan worships an Idol, he atributes the Idol its own power and will: if a miracle ensues, it is by the Idol's power and the Idol's will.

No, the idols are depictions of gods - we do not attribute to the idol the power of the gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2UhmEIODjA

>>3151152
Your mind cannot tell them apart. Well, a normal person's mind cannot tell them apart. I don't feel so confident making statements about what your mind can and cannot do.

>>3151135
>Does it matter?
Having a shred of consistency to your worldview you are trying to sell people so they don't think you are a laughinstock.

>>3151148
>Actually, you're the delusional one.
>demons exist

Do you think anyone ever converts due to these arguments we have

>>3151173
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he did not exist.

>>3151174
Arguments like this? No.

Questions about Christianity, etc.? Absolutely.

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>>3151159
>Your mind cannot tell them apart.

No, I can tell the difference between a statue of Zeus and a thunderstorm.

Monotheists can't tell the difference between a god and a serial killer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLCTzLzf6to

>>3151138
>When a pagan worships an Idol, he atributes the Idol its own power and will: if a miracle ensues, it is by the Idol's power and the Idol's will.


So I am going to take a wild guess and say you have not read a lot of non-Christian theology.

>>3151180
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people they exist

>>3151180

*exhales weed*

>>3151174
Nope. Most of these posters aren't even religious, they're pretty much just LARPing and trolling.

I actually am just interested that the doctrines involved are accurately represented. It doesn't seem to make much sense to argue against positions that no one holds.

>>3151186
So could the ancient pagans. But they still had the idol of Zeus, and they still thought Zeus was responsible for the thunder.

Monotheists are correct in that there is one God.

You may be amused by this quote: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."

>>3151204
>You may be amused by this quote: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
That is how modern day paedophilia works

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>>3151204
>You may be amused by this quote: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."

In your dreams - the human species doesn't matter for shit to the universe. Being a serial killer doesn't make you a god. Only the gods and approve representatives can make you a god.

When the Roman senate declares Caesar a god - they are acting under approved divine authority. Moses/Muhammad worshipers DO NOT HAVE DIVINE AUTHORITY, never have and never will.

> I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in[f] you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the one who alone is God? - John 5:39-44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m53HSux40Ck

>>3151186

Pretty sure stoning = the straw that broke the camel's back.

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>>3151237
>Pretty sure stoning = the straw that broke the camel's back.

The camel's back was broken the minute the Jews thought they could challenge the gods to a fight and win simply by smashing up a bunch of statues and mass-murdering the gods' servants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4mgZXylbIA

>>3151309
no one can make sense of the the images and videos. seriously you should see a doctor to see if you have scizophrenia

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>>3151338
>no one can make sense of the the images and videos.

Yeah, it's hard to understand words and symbols for a lot of people - that's why I'm the theologian and you're not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewF0zrJDNow

>>3151230
Egyptians didn't have meters.

>>3151148
I didn't say I'm a catholic and I believe that bullshit. That is just the most logical explanation I could put together from all the illogical explanations I get from catholics to this 'idolatry' question (for I live in a catholic country with massive forms of idolatry, as is Spain)

I do believe in the existance of god. An omnipotent one, who is perfectly capable of communicating directly with me if he feels the need to. So, in absence of this direct communication, I just assume acting according to the conscience and the intellect he gave me is ok and he will be fine with it. So, whenever another human being comes and tells me that he speaks on behalf of God for me to do this or that, I just assume he acts on his own human interest and tell him to go fuck himself.

If God doesn't like me that way, well, he can tell me, or strike me with a lightning, or whatever. I am not supposed to understand Him anyway.

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>>3151404
>Egyptians didn't have meters.

Of course they didn't. The gods have no problem with knowing meters will be used in the future though. Monotheists suffer from the delusion the gods owe them things and like to throw tantrums when the gods don't give them what they want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7hfZLTjTSs

>>3151477
>muh gods
nah, you're skitz m8

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>>3151531
>nah, you're skitz m8

Well, there's at most a 1/1,000,000 chance of that. I'm always someone willing to face the truth when evidence is presented to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkEwWlDBxQY

>>3151190
I'm going to take a guess and assume you're not familiar with the pagan religious traditions of the region in question. You're talking about people who would literally take foreign idols hostage upon conquering their worshippers to cut them off from their god.

>>3147896
The being the created the universe and took patronage over the Jewish people is the same being that died on the cross.
There you go

>>3151426
I have a better idea.

Ask God to demonstrate His love for you. Demand it. Never stop.

>>3147921
The only catholic prayer that asks any saint to actually manifest is the St. Michael prayer witch asks him to fight off the devil (which the second stanza of the prayer makes it clear that his source of doing so is through God).
Catholics ask saints to pray for them as you would ask a loved one to pray for you.

>>3149533
>what's the Council of Nicaea?

>>3149557
Please give me one Christian theologian that said this that was t denounced as a heretic by the majority of Christian intelligencia

>>3149577
>"its not an idol" Moses said as he held onto his stone tablets

>>3149659
Jesus' nature as God is neither interchangeable or intermingled with his nature as a man

Christians don't worship man as God but rather God as man

>>3151131
>God and Jesus are two descriptions of the same entity.

So God died at the cross? The romans arrested, beat up, and killed God?
Dang, Nietzsche was very late with his "God is dead" proclamation, the guy died many centuries earlier.

>>3151174
Seeing how the arguments presented in this thread are absolute shit, and all presume the christian faith first, and move from there... no.
If you aren't very, very religious already, these arguments are nonsensical.

>>3152590
>So God died at the cross? The romans arrested, beat up, and killed God?
Yes. And Mary is the Mother of God.

>>3152598
Strange how God created the world that create Marry, so she can create God with her vagina millions of years later.

>>3149677
>The Jews accusing christians of idolatry, that's a laugh.

How? Jews have refused to even draw themselves for awhile. If any religion is anti-idolatry, it's Judaism. Only the Kabbalistic Hasidics could even possibly be considered idolatry.

>>3152607
It would be strange, if that were what Christianity taught. You know that it isn't.

>>3151079
>>3151082
No they don't, the Wall isn't even the Holiest site in Judaism. The Temple Mount is, but (((they))) are banned because Muslims will lose their shit if Kaffirs are treated fully equal to them so they settle for the Roman-Era wall. They just believe God's presence dwells in that area. This is why you see them tweaking out crying as they pray in Hebrew. Compared to bowing towards a Black Stone and praying to Saints and other idols that aren't God it's nothing.

>>3147765
No you venerate Icons, not worship them.

>>3147901
Its called veneration, not worship

>>3152803
>God created Marry
>Mary created Jesus
>Jesus is God

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>ITT: Jews try to turn us away from Him so we can suffer for eternity

This is why the Inquisition happened. Don't think because you forced the Catholics to issue the Satanic Second Vatican Council we have forgotten what (((you))) did.

>justifying christianity by quoting christianity

Every time.