>capitalism distributes resources the most efficientl- Seriously,

>>3130846
Is UBI workable if you do the math?

>>3130848

>economy has money for private jets and €5mil sports cars
>can't afford €50/week for food stipend

Hmmmm

>>3130846
you should really re-evaluate your position
it's not like swedes pulled that car out of their asses
there was cumulatively thousands, if not hundreds of thousands involved in its production, and every single one of them made some money doing so

>>3130855
Economy has enough money for a small number of people to have private jets and sports cars. If you divide the large amount of money that a small number of people have, by a large number of poor people, do the numbers give you a workable UBI? I'm not saying yes or no, I'm just saying that the math should be done.

>>3130863

The singularity will make staple items like food and clothing so cheap that they will be basically free.

>>3130846

kys filthy communist trash

>>3130877
It might. But that is just speculation. It's not something you can count on to create policy now.

That car is ridiculously ugly for that price.

>>3130886

More proof that capitalists are sociopaths

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>wanting UBI even for yourself
Nothing is for free, you should know this by now. You would be little more than a child living in your parents house, and you're certainly not the one making the rules.

>>3130906
If you're going to follow the analogy that government = mommy and daddy, we already have that, only we don't get any allowance and dad puts us in thumbscrews if we sound suspicious when we ask for some spending money.

the socialists' goal is to make everyone poor so that he no longer feels bad about his own shortcomings and failures

>>3130922
The primary goal of capitalists is to ensure that the poor is either silenced or eliminated as a problem, and that they are able to reap as much capital as possible before their deaths.

>>3130922

>socialism
>hey man, here's your weekly stipend. I know it's not much but at least you get food and an apartment

>globalism
>working 16hr days 6 days/week because you have to compete with a bunch of asians

>>3130946
>working 16hr days 6 days/week because you have to compete with a bunch of asians
Except who in the Western world actually does this? Show me all these people who are supposedly working "16hr days 6 days/week".

>>3130935
see how could this even be remotely true? the capitalist will need to pay for all his supplies and then pay his workers. he will need to do so regardless of profit. he will need to create a better supplies, provide better wages, or innovate new products if there is competition.
what is the socialists solution? only a certain group is allowed to provide supplies, all the money remains with them. workers may only be paid in case of profit, and even then they must share the little profit equally regardless of how much more work they have put in. and there is no competition, no. instead competitors are not allowed to earn wealth, as they harm the original product creator and his monopoly.

>>3130897
>Communists are butthurt over the idea that someone somewhere is having more than the state allotted amount of fun.
>It's the CAPITALISTS that are the sociopaths though
lol

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>>3130946
>socialism
>food

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>>3130920
Because in the way we're imagining this situation you're supposed to eventually get out of that house and not have to rely ENTIRELY on your parents.

Assuming you're from the US I also have to say that corporations have more say of party politics than the voters do. Not that the voters that even bother with voting over there (about half) aren't also largely controlled. UBI is pretty much a wet dream of the international elite.

I'm not even a libertarian or somesuch, but don't let yourself get cozy in that spiderweb of welfare programs.

t. Swede who used to be on welfare

>>3130946
>socialism
>you only get paid if we turn a profit and no matter how long or hard you work, everyone gets paid the same

>capitalism
>you'll get paid regardless if i turn a profit or not, in fact, if you work for me instead of Competitor Corp i'll throw in bonuses and healthcare and vacation time!

>>3131000
that is a very comfy looking house

>>3130860
And surely making the world a better place in the process.

>>3130891
This.
But so are most ludicrously expensive things.

>>3131213

This. Someone has to gold plate the sultans toilet seat.

>>3130860
>implying most of the production process isnt done by robots
Maybe 100 years ago that many would benefit but with greater efficiebcy more money stays in the capitalists pocket

>>3131277
i wonder who builds the robots

>>3131277
i wonder who maintains the robots

>>3131277
i wonder who installs the robots

>>3131277
i wonder who invents new robots

>>3131213
>>3131252

you know even those nigras digging those diamonds out of the ground put food on the table thanks to some vain cunt buying an ugly supercar

but I'm sure you would make their lives better by making them pull 120% quotas in some factory that makes shit nobody wants and stare at empty shelves, because there isn't enough shit people DO want

>>3130860
Wouldn't it be better for an equivalent quantity of labor to be consumed in producing something that's actually useful for society?

>>3130906
Most people aren't in a position to make the rules anyway. It's not like they'd be losing anything apart from the need to struggle just to stay afloat.

>>3130986
>I'm okay with engaging in conspicuous consumption that will result in at least several people dying
>I'm not a sociopath though

>>3131000
But you don't ever get out of the house though, you're always living under the government, the only chance you have of making the rules is becoming the head of some megacorp that owns half of congress.

>>3131197
>no matter how long or hard you work, everyone gets paid the same.
That's not what socialism is though. It just means that the means of production are collectively owned by the workers.

>you'll get paid regardless if i turn a profit or not
Until the business goes under. And when it does, there's nothing you can do about it, even if you knew that the management's decisions would lead to it - because you don't have a say, and you can't just go and start your own business because you don't own capital.

>>3131290
Except more people would benefit if the labor was used for something that's actually useful. Nobody's saying we should repeat the Soviet idiocy of completely stopping industrial growth after Stalin's death. But I'd much rather see that labor go to building affordable housing, or curing disease, than buying some lolconspicuousconsumption car for the 1%.

>>3131528
>and you can't just go and start your own business because you don't own capital.
so they got paid but they don't own capital that really makes me think anon
well i think you're right. if capitalism worked, then America would be filled with small business and there would be countless stories of people leaving their current state of affairs to take a risk and start a business, even if they are in a desperate financial or social situation

>>3130922
t. Margaret Thatcher

>>3131552
fascinating argument, supply with more replies that don't address any of the criticisms against you, i'm learning so much about the intelligence of socialists

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>>3130906
This

>>3131528
>I'm okay with engaging in conspicuous consumption that will result in at least several people dying
>Several people must be sacrificed to the Motor gods to consecrate the blinker fluid that turns a regular car into a sports car
>This what communists ACTUALLY believe!
lol at you

>>3130846
That shit isn't mass-produced though.

>>3131637
>People literally die because of communism by the tens of millions, so communists pretend all deaths due to want are due to the ideology that is single-handedly responsible for pulling billions out of poverty to try and desperately save their monstrous and wicked system.

Commies should be shot.

>>3131282
>>3131283
>>3131284
>>3131289
The workers.

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>>3131685

>>3131637
Is this Swiss International Design?

>>3131715
>everything I don't like is capitalism, a redditer's guide to arguing economics

>Venezuela
>Soviet Union
>China before economic reform towards capitalism
>Warsaw Pact nations
>Yugoslavia
>North Korea
>Zimbabwe
>Cuba
>Mexico(ruling party since the 1920s has been a socialist party).

boy Capitalism sure is BTFO.

>>3131730
>not an argument.

Stay mad classcuck

>>3131741
Pointing out your opponent is arguing in bad faith is actually a perfectly good argument.

>>3131740
oh I almost forgot. Somali's communist government fell and the GDP immediately went up.

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>>3130846

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>>3131749

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>>3131730
Communism is inevitable buko.

>>3131741
>posts a non argument
>gets flustered when called out
okay sweetiepie sugarlumps honeybunch whatever you say

>>3131763
>stateless

You need the State to enforce laws by coercive force.

>>3131763
why do i have a feeling that image was not originally made in jest

>>3131751
>>3131749
So when does the straw men where the robots kill us all happen

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>>3131774

Nah. The robots won't kill us.

Rather when humans figure out how to break the safety DRM on their robot servant... Things go to hell.

Say, you could just send your highly hostile robot to a left wing protest at Berkley.

>>3130846
>UBI is anti-capitalist
???
Fucking Hayek was pro UBI. It eliminates coercion in the labor market.

>>3131277
Super cars are usually handcrafted with the aid of machines

>>3130846
diamonds aren't worth squat

>>3130846
>>capitalism distributes resources the most efficientl-
It does. You are thinking of effectiveness.

>>3130846
This shit isn't even history, please fuck off /leftypol/

>>3131763
Equal pay for all inherently exploits those whose work is worth more, to subsides those whose work is worth less.

>>3131715
>>3131741
1. Capitalism didn't even exist until around the 1700s, learn to economics.

2. Deaths due to want or greed are not the same things are deaths due to capitalism.

>>3131817
humanities
kind of
it belongs in /biz/ imo

>>3131885
/biz/ is just /bit/coin the board

>>3131893
well what is the point of that

>Install tyrannical regimes in Russia, Cambodia, China, North Korea, Eastern Europe, and Ethiopia
>Each regime kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions directly by military force
>Regimes like the Khmer Rouge kill up to a quarter of the population
>Untold millions more are sent to suffer in specially made labor camps for disagreeing with Communist dogma
>Communist leaders deliberately engineer famines to cull their enemies, whether ideological or ethnic
>Mao himself claimed that "one-tenth of the peasants would have to be destroyed" (~50 million people at the time) to facilitate Communist reforms
>None of this happens in capitalist countries

>B-but muh preventable deaths!!!

Are Communists the most disgusting, morally bankrupt people in existence?

>>3131817
Humanities

>>3131913
>Are Communists the most disgusting, morally bankrupt people in existence?
it's a group of people who want the world handed to them on a silver platter, no matter the cost. are you really that surprised of their lack of ethics and empathy for other humans?

UBI is a decent idea but it requires a drastic rethinking of how we look at government and it's purpose, and it's one i'm not sure a lot of people are willing to make. In America, the party we call the Republicans, who identify as the 'Conservative' party, believe the role of government is to do the absolute minimal to enable local governments and institutions to succeed while preventing out and out chaos, trusting to human ingenuity and initiative to sort out problems.

The Democratic Party, who identify as Liberals, believe that the purpose of government is to protect people from discriminatory abuse, unfair and bad faith activity, and actions which lower the overall prosperity of both majority and minority.

Neither side is fully prepared to embrace the ideaology that UBI represents - the role of government is to equitable provide and distribute resources for the benefit and prosperity of it's people. You see more left leaning Democratic Socialists like Sanders embracing these ideas, but the majority just aren't there.

I think UBI is an idea that could work, and that could be very beneficial to society. I just don't think you'll get people behind it for a whole plethora of reasons.

>>3131885
>humanities
but commies aren't human

>>3131926
The government can't be trusted to distribute resources fairly and equitably if it can't be trusted not to lie to us. Any government that desires more control while keeping information classified should be resisted.

>>3131928
[Seinfeld bass line]

>>3131926
how would UBI work or be beneficial?
welfare was a tool by whites used to destroy the black family unit, and look at black people in America now
UBI is just income redistribution rebranded, it's welfare for an entire nation

>>3131690
...who get paid to do so, and can stop working at any time.

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>>3130846
>calls yourself anti-capitalist
>advocates for UBI
>law of value and commodity exchange still applies
>the proles are tranquilized and you just extended the lifespan of capitalism

UBI: The opiate of the masses.

>>3131934
>>3131940
I'm not sure how to respond to hilariously rediculous conspiracy theories.

The issue isn't that the government is a hyper competent manipulation machine that creates complex coverups and schemes to keep the populace weak and satiated.

The issue is the Government really IS just that banal and inept, and every bad thing they do is the work of either some cynical lifer working for a paycheck or some idiotic but well intentioned optimist who doesn't fully think out the ramifications of their actions.

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>>3131926
>the role of government is to equitable provide and distribute resources for the benefit and prosperity of it's people

Sounds like someone we know

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>>3131926
The reason we don't view the government like that is because we aren't slaves, that is to say Communists.

UBI is a system that would collapse the economy like a house of cards, we can't have any system remotely like that until we have what amounts to post-scarcity, and we'll never have total post-scarcity, only resources that are rendered post-scarcity.

>>3131934
Its not even a question of trusting the government, its a question of efficiency and incentives. People who think that GREED is the reason communism always fails are just as ignorant as communists.

Communism fails, not because of communism, but because of the inefficiencies born of central planning. The OP is a perfect example. Capitalism is 'inefficient' because it creates so much wealth that large amounts of resources are wasted on frivolous bullshit. Communism is inefficient because it causes huge shortages of necessary goods because government bureaucrats don't have the necessary information available to them at all times to accurately predict the wants and needs of the people and assign production in an efficient manner creating surpluses and shortages such as those that struck the Soviet Union.

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>>3131951
What free market worshipers don't understand is how skillfuly capitalism can subvert socialism by hijacking its tenets.

>>3131913
>Not true communism =^)

>>3131960
Its not a conspiracy theory, its economics. If you subsidize something, you get more of it. When women know they can obtain their livelihood from the State it removes the economic incentives to marriage, since a woman knows she can leave a man and suffer no decrease to her standard of living. Personal incentives can work, but those have been fucked up in other ways.

I love how socialists are such fans of Star Trek, because its actually a good example of UBI in a post-scacity world. Its canon to the setting that although many people join Star Fleet to better themselves and all that shit Picard won't shut up about, the majority of the population stays at home on their holodecks living fantasies and masturbating.

That's really the best case scenario of UBI. NEET Trek: The Last Generation.

>The worst case scenario is it collapses the economy because we don't have replicators yet.

>>3131963
not because of GREED, but because of*

>>3130846
How well is UBI doing on the ideas market? People buyin?

>>3131966
You can't "hijack" the tenets of socialism, the only thing that winds up happening is you get "capitalists" who openly push for socialism without fear of social consequence.

Sure some guy may make a bundle of money selling t-shirts with pictures of Che on them to teenagers, but at the end of the day the only thing of lasting consequence he's done is normalize Che among teenagers.

>>3132030
Are you implying UBI is socialism?

>>3130860
This. It's shitty and decadent sure but at least workers benefited from it.

>>3131282
>>3131283
>>3131284
>>3131289
Less people would have been involved if this was the case. Automation saves money obviously.

>>3131715
>Smallpox is capitalism
-100 million
>Atlantic slave trade killed 15 million despite only involving 12 million slaves
-10 million
>Indian famines greatly exaggerated
-22 million
>Nazis were capitalists
-25 million
>Algerian war of independence is capitalism's fault despite being started by socialists
-1 million
>Vietnamese killed by US higher than total Vietnam war dead by both sides
-1.5 million
>US bombing killed twice as many people as died in the civil wars
-500,000
>Both Angolan and Mozambiquan civil war deaths exaggerated by half a million, murders by communists not mentioned
-550,000
-600,000
>UN sanctions on Iraq death toll exaggerated
-600,000
>Civil war in Afghanistan death toll exaggerated, blamed on capitalism rather than Communist invasion
-400,000
>Destruction of Communist Yugoslavia blamed on capitalism instead of just Nato bombings
-190,000
>Congolese civil war death toll exaggerated
-2 million

Total killed:
222,655,929
-164,340,000 misattributed or made-up deaths
=58,315,929 killed by capitalism in over 500 years.

Remember not to fall to commie lies

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>>3131774
Something like this

>>3131960
how is it a conspiracy theory
oh right nevermind /pol/ is here, the white man didn't do nothing guys, blacks were never treated unfairly

>>3130846
How the fuck do luxury goods justify the need for a UBI? It's stimulating the economy more than money sitting in foreign bank accounts to avoid taxation. Besides, that car is the cumulation of thousands of man-hours' worth of skilled labor.

And if capitalism isn't the most efficient method of distributing resources, than what is? It sure as hell isn't any form of Marxism, considering how all attempts at implementing it turned out.

>>3130846
Remember that communism just leads to more poor people and a large corrupt government class. Communism led to people in Ukraine literally eating each other to survive. Also when is it ever a good idea to have some college aged twat to tell farmers that have worked the soil for a century that they are growing shit wrong cause "muy state run everything"

>>3131913
Nazis are worse.

>>3130961
Literally every western country before governments started enacting socialistic labor laws.

>>3131637
>dying of malaria
in shit holes with shit economies
>dying from curable disease
in shit holes with shit economies
>dying of hunger
in shit holes with shit economies
>die from lack of clean water
in shit holes with shit economies

More capitalism would fix this, prove me wrong.

>>3131213
>And surely making the world a better place in the process.
Actually, barring bullshit like gold-plating toilers or whatever, luxury items are also chance for the company to place OP stuff in it, like the latest gizmo, which will eventually might be introduced in consumer items.
>>3131000
>Assuming you're from the US I also have to say that corporations have more say of party politics than the voters do. Not that the voters that even bother with voting over there (about half) aren't also largely controlled. UBI is pretty much a wet dream of the international elite.
Late Roman Empire, here we come again.

>>3131542
>there would be countless stories of people leaving their current state of affairs to take a risk and start a business, even if they are in a desperate financial or social situation
There aren't, though.

Just a handful of examples that are glamored up and spread on facebook feeds.
>This guy that was almost a hobo now runs a successful food joint. WATCH THE VIDEO!

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>>3131960
>The government would never keep anything secret
IT TOOK THEM TWENTY FUCKING YEARS TO ADMIT THE NSA EVEN EXISTED.

>>3130877
>DUDE THE SINGULARITY

>>3131289
AI

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>>3131913
>Capitalism did nothing wrong

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>>3131213
Hello, have you heard the word of our lord and saviour Christian von Koenigsegg and his direct drive system?

>>3130877
>Singularity
>Existing
Dumbest religion of the 20th century.

>>3131213
Go ask /o/ about Koenigsegg. They do things no other company does, and they're staffed by people who genuinely love cars.

>>3130846
keyword "most". nothing's perfect.

OP, the reason that the car is so expensive is because it's sold in very low volume and handbuilt with a huge amounts of expensive materials after years of expensive research and tuning.

>>3132463
>people dying under capitalism
oh, its because they're shit

>>3130855
It's not your money you fucking nigger

>>3134797
This nigga knows. Transmissions are for faggots amiright?

>>3133597
>What a man really has, is what is in him
>A underage male prostitute's cock is in him

>>3131913
>>None of this happens in capitalist countries
Please, this is a history board.

>>3130855
>>3130846

>there shouldn't be luxury markets to employ the highest-skilled experts and workers
>there shouldn't be a space for cutting edge technology and craftmanship to be researched, developed and produced
>better pump out cheap shit to gift to nobodies who'll break and ruin everything and keep being poor and die after uneventful, unproductive lives

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>>3130846
>another /leftypol/ shilling thread
FUCK OFF TO >>>/pol/, FAGGOT. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

>>3132037
No, are you?

>>3134797
>Named Kindersegg
>Has an egg for a head
Pottery

>>3130972
>capitalist need to pay their workers

It took us thousands of years to outlaw slavery because you bastards. If you had it your way, you wouldn't pay your laborers.

The fact is is that when you put greed before your fellow man, the outcome is obvious. Socialist (not communist, there's a difference) put their fellow man before greed. We're finally wealthy enough to do this and yet you corporate shits dodge taxes and hide assists overseas with the workforce you stashed their as well

>>3130846
It's people like you that think they are entitled to someone else's shit while remaining completely worthless. Pathetic parasite

>>3135382
>he was a fag LOL

what quality argument

>>3131715
that's cute, just tally up everyone who died outside a communist nation since 1492 and call it good

>>3130848
>Is UBI workable if you do the math?
It is, but not from getting rid of luxury items like the anons in this thread seem to be suggesting. You would do it by eliminating all existing state funded social programs and letting people who needed that support previously use their new UBI checks to cover it. So no more food stamps or housing assistance. This is the main reason why it'll be difficult to get popular support behind it. The conservatives will hate it because it's socialism and the leftists will hate it because it's going to eliminate existing social programs.

>>3130848
Depends on how basic. You could easily enough give every adult $10k per year just for existing. Indeed it may be necessary in the future as mechanization increases further. I mean unless you are okay having a perpetually unemployed underclass by 2100 because pretty much every job except engineers working in the design field has been outsourced to third world countries or replaced by machines.

>>3131749
>>3131751

sauce? link?

>>3130860
>money
What about resource efficiency? That car is a waste of diamonds and fuel.

>>3130846
>complains about an expensive car being a waste of resources
>promotes being a fat lazy waste of resources
At least the car provides transport and pussy

>>3130961
I personaly have known and currently know people who do this.

Furthermore certain industries request at least 60 hours a week in work. The government only know so much

>>3135553
His name is Koenigsegg, he's the guy behind the car in OP, Direct Drive, and Freevalve.

>>3130922
>implying socialists don't have their own critiques of UBI
I mean it is not bad, but not that good

>>3131637
8 + 7.6 + 3 + 500 = 20 people dying each year

>European "" education"" everyone

>>3130877
The meme singularity is the only one thats actually happened the others are theories that could be right around the corner for the next 30 years.

>>3130961
top managers and politicians

>>3130846
>Left pol still thinking wealth is a finite resource and not something created.

>>3130846
People who advocate for ubi don't understand basic economics. It has failed everywhere it has been tried.

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>>3138745
> regular /pol/ and assorted capitoolists believe wealth is anything but destruction of value and resources

Go back to schooll, wannabe Porky.

>>3132279
Nazis barely existed and beyond that they never came to power anymore but Germany

>>3138766
Please explain what you mean because that makes no fucking sense

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>>3138766
>Leftycuck

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>>3130846
I fucking got warned for posting a thread that questioned the appeal of modern communism and my thread got deleted but shit like this is up for days. /his/ has fucking tankie mods.

>>3138766
More and more its being shown that /pol/ really is the smartest board on this cancer website.

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>>3138766
>Wealth is the destruction of value and resources

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>>3138766
FUCK YOU BOTH, REEEEEE

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>>3130846
>implying UBI and capitalism are incompatible

>>3130846
I agree. Think of how many people that one car could feed!

>>3135068
lmao

>implying leftists have morals

Why do you think they're so degenerate?

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just reestablish the tax brackets of 1950's America, then the problem solves itself. The rich fucks will prefer to pay higher wages instead of 90% income tax.

>>3131799
CNCS and autoclaves sure but not robotics. koeniggseggs are made my a huge team of highly paid, highly skilled craftspeople

>>3135567

>If you had it your way, you wouldn't pay your laborers.


If you had it your way you wouldn't pay for anything.

Anonymous ## Mod 2017-07-26 09:43:06 Post No.3145601
[Report]

Anonymous ## Mod 2017-07-26 09:43:06 Post No.3145601 [Report]

This thread was moved to >>>/pol/135051000