Is the nation derived from the state or the state derived

>>3119085
Obviously state is derived from nation because nations can exists without a state. Kurds for a prime modern example

They are mutually exclusive

States are a legal entity

Nations are a socio-cultural feeling

You can have stateless nations, and states consisting of multiple nations

and of course, nations did not exist as a "basis" for the state, or as self-constructed groupings (unless you see tribalism as a form of proto-nationalism), before the 18th century

It goes both ways, but usually the state comes first and the national identity is formed from it. Germany and Italy are exceptions.

Political nations (France, UK, US) are formed by states.

Ethnic nations (Germans, Poles, Italians) form states.

You could argue that ethic nations formed states from previous states that failed to mold them into political nations - for one reason or another.

>>3119252
All states formed after collapse of the Russian empire, and again collapse of the USSR, also fall into this category.

>>3119194
What was the basis for states before the 18th century? I've been interested to know this for a while. Like, if nations didn't exist, then was there any sort of cultural identity or solidarity in medieval Europe? Like what made France "France", and what kept it together, separate from its neighbors?

>>3119194
Well put

>>3119428
They were largely monarchies where there may have been a dominant ethnic groups which the monarch may or may not have been part of. Just looking at Europe before and even after nationalism, it was dominated by multi-ethnic empires. Of course, liberalism and nationalism threw a wrench into this setup.

>>3119428
>when the nation-state narrative was memed by postivists and nationalists so hard people have difficulty imagining anything else
Jesus lmao

>>3119428
The crown and its vassals/lieges via land holdings

i.e. the reason something as batshit as the HRE existed for so long, cause all those small petty principalities swore fealty to a single emperor