Am i the only person who doesn't consider these men to be

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>>3108681
>lost the only war they fought

>>3108681
You're practically begging for butthurt leftcucks to Bomber Harris your thread into oblivion, but no you are far from the only person who respected the German military under National Socialism.

>>3108685
>lost the only war they fought
>profoundly influenced modern US military doctrine

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>>3108685

Tell that to France. Tell that to Englands entire expeditionary force. Tell that to Poland. Tell that to Norway. Tell that to Greece. Tell that to Yugoslavia. You know what, you tell that to the tens of millions of Russian men that died fighting them.

Four world superpowers....on three fronts to defeat them.

Think about it anon. No I'm not German, I'm an historian.

>>3108697

Read this please. >>3108706

They revolutionized modern warfare, they are fathers of it.

>>3108706
Hey Britain and Poland, the Wehrmacht lost the only war they fought.
Feel better?

>>3108717

You just can't wrap your head around it can you? They fielded the finest fighting force during that war. Not a single nation on the continent of Europe won during World War II.

The United States was the only winner.

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>>3108706
>four world superpowers
>three fronts
>historian
didn't know the USSR counted as 4 superpowers, and the eastern front as 3 fronts
how is the art history degree serving you?

>>3108706
>you tell that to the tens of millions of Russian men that died fighting them.
The ten of million, plus tens of millions civilians.

>>3108724
>not even close to being motorized
>finest force
British were at least motorized.

>>3108737
Oh look another tankie that thinks Russia won the war by itself.

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>>3108724
I'm sure that German women appreciated this finest fighting force in 1945

>>3108724
What was so brilliant about them? People seem to be constantly jerking off to the thought of the Wehrmacht but I'd like to see some reasons why

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>>3108737

England, France, Russia and the United States. The Western front, the Eastern front, North Africa and along the Mediterranean, primarily Italy.

Yes, Russia sacrificed the most to win that war, but they were so incompetent and so pathetic in how they used the lives of their own people. Cannon Fodder is a usable term in this regard.

>>3108681
>modern
They did pretty well considering their army was horse drawn and they went up against 3 superpowers at once, but I wouldn't call them the most impressive by any stretch.

>>3108685
>what is the spanish civil war

There's already a WWII general you can jerk off about nazis in.

>>3108755
They beat unprepared and poorly lead countries after signing treaties not to attack them.

>>3108681
What are those things they're riding on? I don't think they're horse drawn carts because I can't see a yoke or reins

>>3108681
They weren't white supremacists by any definition of the word.

>>3108743
and I'm sure that motorization proved very useful during their rapid retreat from the German advance and evacuation from Dunkirk.
:3

>>3108759
>Cannon Fodder
Read a book you idiot.
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=890417B7891C182BD06F8433AE488A42

>>3108706
>I'm an historian.
Pretty shitty one, judging by your posts senpai

>>3108755
The small unit tactics they pioneered are still used to this day.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6yJ7VlaYwnQ

>>3108706
>tell that to the countries riddled with debt due to americas unregulated capitalism that because they didnt have an autistic fit, remained united after the Second World War and then on to the present

>>3108773
Wasn't Dunkirk a massive failure for the Germans?

>>3108755

Well, there are a lot of reasons why. Read a good World War 2 book not biased toward the winners. Ostkrieg by Steven Fritz is a very good one.

Or watch the whole series of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTTwM6pwC0U

They wiped out english and french resistance on mainland Europe in a rapid 6 week campaign. For every one German soldier that would die, it is estimated (all we can do is estimate due to the scale of the carnage) that 2-4 allied soldiers would die. There is no question who fielded the finest fighting force.

They also preformed the largest encirclement operation of all-time against the Soviets.....close to 600,000 Soviet troops were encircled...only 15,000 would make it out alive. Thats 4 entire soviet armies destroyed.


>>3108750

The Wehrmacht did not lose the war, Hitler did. Generals win wars, but when politicians intervene, politicians lose them.

>>3108747
>where did germany lose 75% of its personnel
>where did the biggest tank battle of the war, ever, take place
>where did the vast majority of germany's talented officers die
>where was the vast majority of planes, tanks destroyed
>what is literally the largest front, in any war, in history
literally the largest, most brutal front, of any war, but no, i'm sure the breakout from normandy (AFTER BAGRATION) and the liberation of france was instrumental in turning the tide against the germans

and not a tankie btw hihi

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>>3108759
And yet they won. How did such a competent army like Wehrmacht lose against such an incompetent army?

>>3108681
>most impressive force
But that's not late ww1 British land army, or ww1 navy, or ww2 Air Force
>most impressive
>failed the most of any nations army to protect their women and children from the enemy which is the primary reason for an army

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>>3108784
>The Wehrmacht did not lose the war,
Is this what victory looks like?

>>3108784
>but when politicians intervene
Give me an example. Any one you will list came from an OBK/OBH general and not Hitler.
Apart, obviously, from the genesis of the campaigns you are jacking off over.

>>3108773
I'm sure motorization would have helped the poor Germans escape Russian encirclement.
But then again, it might not have mattered, no oil anyway due to shit-tier diplomacy and navy (and the failures of the army later on, of course).

>>3108784
>it matters how many Russians you kill rather than if you stop their rape of your women

>>3108778

I have read many books sir. There is no question about it, the Russians would use their men with reckless abandon, and if they retreated, they would use draconian tactics without any regard for their own countrymen.

Russian troops had a choice between the bullets of the Germans or the bullets of their own countrymen.

>>3108779

All I'm doing is stating facts sir. You haven't stated any, so fuck off.

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>>3108788
>muh hooman waves!!!

>>3108782

No, hitler let them escape. Again, the Wehrmacht did not lose the war...Hitler did.

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>>3108706
>Tell that to...Blah-blah-blah
their tactic was "blindside them, knocking them out of commission before they could switch to a full wartime footing"

As soon as the other powers shifted their economies from civilian to military production, Germany was toast

>Four world superpowers....on three fronts to defeat them.
Which is more indicative of the colossal failure that was German diplomacy, plus the inane stupidity of Hitler and the High Command to think that opening up two fronts in a major war is a great idea, against a country with whom they had a non-aggression pact, no less.

>Think about it anon. No I'm not German, I'm an historian.
You're a right wing apologist romanticizing zealous butchers.

They "influenced" modern doctrine by doing everything that you shouldn't do: You shouldn't over-engineer your shit. You shouldn't think that ideological puritanism is a good substitute for professionalism. You shouldn't let fat dumb bastards manage your air force. You shouldn't brutalize people in other countries who really want to ally with you, you shouldn't let your leader command one of the armies in his spare time, and sentence an entire army to die just because they couldn't capture a city which you really wanted for no good strategic reason. Not even bothering to collect intelligence on people you're about to invade is a really fucking stupid idea. Aesthetic < utility, especially when it comes to winter gear.

>>3108804
>enemy at the gates is a book
Consider suicide

>>3108784
>largest encirclement operation of all-time against
>close to 600,000
The Soviets encircled 600,000 men during the Manchurian Strategic Operation, champ.

We fucking need a ww2 general to contain all these retarded threads.

>>3108788

For the four time! The Wehrmacht did not lose the war...Hitler did.

He failed to heed the advice of his generals at pivotal moments causing the Wehrmacht to lose the war.

this is your home
>>3108007
>>3108007
>>3108007

>>3108706

The Japanese BTFO the Chinese and killed 14 million of them. Doesn't mean the IJA was the world's best army.

>>3108784
I would argue that Hitler didn't lose the war either, there just was no way they could conceivably win.

Germans made the best of the limited resources available to them and put up a truly historical showing, but even though they punched well above their weigh there was still no way they would be able to make it in the weight class they were fighting in.

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God if there's an example of poetic justice in history i swear it's Battle of Berlin. The sheer thought of being defeated, humiliated and raped by the same people you thought of as subhumans must have been horrifying for Germans.
The only problem is that Russians haven't killed or raped nearly enough as they should.

>>3108787
That's nice, too bad none of that would have happened if they didn't have the Allies backing them up.

>>3108823
Then why didn't the Wehrmacht overthrow hitler

>>3108681
>White supremacists
>actively exterminated white people in eastern europe
Americans pls go.
>most impressive modern military
Good doctrine and strategy. But wastefully impractical technology. Wehraboos gush at them advanced tanks that could never have been produced at a necessary rate and were regardless too heavy to fulfill their purpose. Not to mention useless rocketry for the sole purpose of terrorizing British civilians.
>warriors
Oh, the romanticization of the blood and guts.

>>3108804
>the Russians would use their men with reckless abandon
What do you call sending million of men into Russia while still at war with Britain.
>they would use draconian tactics without any regard for their own countrymen.
Sort of like all those people hanged in Berlin right?
>Russian troops had a choice between the bullets of the Germans or the bullets of their own countrymen.
You must of read some low quality books, blocking detachments for often than not acted as collection and filtration lines, only in extreme circumstances you they act like portrayed in Enemy at the Gates and even then at the rear of the tactical zone, not the front lines.

>>3108799

Hitler took the initiative away from many of his generals making it so major decisions had to be approved by him. Two examples include the british "escape" from dunkirk, and the redirection of Guderian panzer group from army group center to help army group south instead of destroying the social, economic, and political capitol of the soviet union....Moscow.

There are countless other situations where Hitler would interview and cause the loss of the war.

>>3108820
Its called /his/

>>3108787
Yes, because the russians also single handedly destroyed the kriegsmarine and luftwaffe, destroyed the german industrial heartland, cracked the enigma machine, and tied down around 50% of the german army, as well as eliminated the italians from the war.

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And after more than 70 years the Soviet memorials stand in Berlin as an eternal reminder of this humiliation.

>>3108849

German industrial production actually increased at the end of 1944.

>>3108801
>Germany lacked oil because of "shit-tier" diplomacy
>Not just simple geography
It's sad how people now a days can't be objective about the Nazis and admit their strengths where they existed. To much emotional attachment to an event they have no real personal connection to.

>Muh grampa fought in the war!
and I'm sure he would appreciate your saying the people that killed his buddies and who he went through hell to defeat weren't that big of a deal.

>>3108813

Your hopeless, your attacks on me are worthless. You have no idea how much i have read and understand on this matter. You can keep your venomous insults sir.

The Wehrmacht was the modern day version of Hannibal

>>3108841
>Two examples include the british "escape" from dunkirk
Order originated from von Rundstedt.
>and the redirection of Guderian panzer group from army group center to help army group south
Jesus fucking christ, both as I expected.
That one order did come from Hitler, and considering the deployments of Soviet strengths and the slow advance of AGS it was the right choice. Read Colossus Reborn or Forgotten Battles by Glantz if you want to learn something.
Your understanding of the war is extremely shallow, and pretty much entirely wrong.

>>3108813
>right wing apologist romanticizing zealous butchers.
Always better than a left wing apologist romanticizing zealous butchers
>hurr Bomber Harris do it again!
>durr rape of Berlin best day of my life!

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Modern Germans, emasculated and devoid of pride for all eternity come to salute the soldiers who raped and murdered their ancestors.

>>3108849
>Yes, because the russians also single handedly destroyed the kriegsmarine and luftwaffe
kriegsmarine was practically irrelevant, and most planes were dedicated to the east.
>destroyed the german industrial heartland
german production was at it's max in 1944, at the peak of the bombing campaigns

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>>3108869
>Always better than a left wing apologist romanticizing zealous butchers

>>3108857
It also crippled german oil production, so....

>>3108681

So from what I understand, they were pretty decent at small unit tactics while ranging from mediocre to diabolical in just about every other respect. They over-engineered their armor to shit, made some major strategic blunders, pulled old men and boys into their ranks and ended up being out-fought and out-gunned on every single front. They started the war as a fairly modern, forward thinking army fighting against the old style French and British. It was old fighting new so it's no wonder they won. Yet the second the Allies clicked on the Germans got absolutely stomped (more than 80% of Wehrmacht casualties were during the last 2 years of the war). If an army can't adapt and evolve to meet the changing strategic requirements then it's a shit army.

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And they thought that they could conquer the world. Sad!

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>>3108874
Problem?

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>>3108818

Hmmm, I don't believe this, ill look it up though.

>>3108820

Then you need a man like Erich von Manstein.

>>3108826

No, because China was not England, France, Russia and the United States...all fully industrialized world powers.

>>3108827

I see where your coming from, towards the end there was no way to win. But at the start they could have won, speed was essential though. Hitler would ruin that though with stupid interventions and stupid decisions, disregarding his generals advice.

>>3108837

they were German civilians, drafted into the military to fight for their country. Don't confuse 10% of Himmlers death squads with the entirety of the Wehrmacht.

>>3108862
yeah yeah just write your username and I'll check your comments on /r/history

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>>3108681
No
>In 4th wheraboo
Fuck off, the Germans fought like hell. Soviets did too, and they got extremely lucky that deep battle broke the blitzkrieg at the last moment.

>>3108869
Not really better or worse, both are distasteful and fall into the realm of mental imbalance.

>>3108840

No, we can debate this without insulting each other. I just have different views then the main stream, biased history books written by the winners...we all know history is written by the victors.

>>3108858
>He doesn't want to bang slav women
Ha, Queer.

>>3108891
>at the last moment.
Soviet resistance in 1941 and 1942 was anti-Deep Battle. It was as shallow as you can get.

>>3108887
Careful driving that jeep there, boyo. It'd be a shame if something happened.

>>3108862
>Your hopeless, your attacks on me are worthless. You have no idea how much i have read and understand on this matter. You can keep your venomous insults sir.
Would you say that you are enlightened by your own intelligence?

>The Wehrmacht was the modern day version of Hannibal
The Wehrmacht was the result of years of the German government over-investing in its military, spending way beyond their means to the point where they were overheating their economy, and they had to invade just to keep their economy afloat.

so yes, this way of doing things does produce impressive initial results, especially when you start swinging that army at countries which are still primarily making investments in its civilian sector and trying to pull their economies out of depression. But its not sustainable and it's not a winning strategy, and that's what Hannibal and his precious elephants had to learn the hard way.

>>3108882
> an army can't adapt and evolve to meet the changing strategic requirements then it's a shit army.
It's not the army's fault when industrial capacity can't keep up with pace of strategic shift.

>>3108896
>we all know history is written by the victors.
The why is it called the Eastern Front?
The German view on the German-Soviet aspects of WW2 was the dominate view until the late 1990s, and still persists until today.
Mostly due to lack of access to Soviet sources with has been mostly rectified by people like Glantz.
>No, we can debate this without insulting each other
Oh, fuck you jackass.
>I just have different views then the main stream
Ha, its just about as mainstream (i.e. pop culture) as you can get.

>>3108862
>The Wehrmacht was the modern day version of Hannibal

Hahaha and how is that supposed to mean anything apart from clearly identifying them as losers?

>>3108904
Hey don't compare Hannibal and the Wehrmacht. Hannibal was one man going deep into a hyper militarized state with minimal support from his stupid merchant kingdom government. The Wehrmacht didn't have such excuses.

>>3108900
The Soviet Union first used deep battle as a primary strategy in Stalingrad as far i know.

>>3108894
I have a strong bias against leftists as they are the dominant cultural force in our society, and until that is reversed I will continue to support the right.

I came to my senses when, in order to "trigger" wehraboos, I saved a blurry photograph of a young German woman sucking some crusty GI's wormy dick surrounded by a crowd of soldiers, and immediately felt disgusted with myself.

>>3108907
It is the army's fault that it wasted industrial capacity on white elephants and decided not to standardise equipment further squandering limited industrial capacity.

>>3108706
>I'm an historian
>an historian
>an

>>3108922
Good point. I stand corrected.

>>3108929
>I came to my senses when, in order to "trigger" wehraboos, I saved a blurry photograph of a young German woman sucking some crusty GI's wormy dick surrounded by a crowd of soldiers, and immediately felt disgusted with myself.
You have absolutely nobody to blame for this shit but yourself faggot. Try turning off the porn box and going outside once in a while instead of scapegoating society for your failings as a person.

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The humiliation was so strong that even 70 years later nazi monkeys are still mad and making pathetic excuses.

Nazism has been dealt with decisively and brutally, with moans of German women. The only thing that's left is bitching and complaining while new generations of German women open their hearts and legs for new conquerors.

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>>3108849

There is no doubting that the Russians won that war. But i believe that if the full force of the Wehrmacht was unleashed on Russia they would have easily been destroyed. Thus making the Wehrmacht the better fighting force.

Check this out anon, its pretty well made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTTwM6pwC0U&t=11s

>>3108856

You not getting the point of this thread anon.

>>3108864

I disagree anon, but World War II events are always highly debatable and fun to discuss. I think his redirection did not allow for enough time to destroy moscow, thus the Russian winter would defeat the Wehrmacht before they could get there, for it would take a lot of time for the Germans to complete the encirclement at kiev.

I also think hitler was hoping for an alliance with England, and massacring a bunch of english troops on a beach was not the best idea to attain that.

>>3108870

Well, Germans killed and murdered them too, this is war.

>>3108882

I see where your coming from, but man they achieved a lot of impressive victories during that war. There is something about them...there uniforms, their unity, their rise from a shitty european economy to a global powerhouse in just a few decades and the blitzkrieg. I think its far to say that they are pretty damn impressive and fun to discuss.

>>3108884

Lol, they almost did.

>>3108891

Absolutely, i respect all the men that died during this war. Im just angry at the soviets for their treatment of their own people. Not to mention the fact that Europe would be a lot stronger today if Hitler won.

>>3108939
He's a historian not a autistic English teacher. Make yourself an hero , Anon.

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>>3108904

Your second point is very eye opening too me. Ive read this as well, it seems as though they had to launch their invasions and stand firm against the global power structure. It was one hell of a raid!

They remind me so much of Hannibal during his fight against Rome.

>>3108917

Very well said, but i mean the demonization of the Wehrmacht as white supremacists monsters in books and movies thought the previous decade, when these men really were just young german men fighting for their people and country.

>>3108833

they tried. fucker had the devil's own luck

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Little did they know but Nazis engineered an entire stock of fertile. healthy German women just for Soviets, as a sort of victory prize. Pic related were specifically trained to be taken by horny Siberians.

>>3108949
>Lol, they almost did.
Number of World powers defeated by the Axis Powers: 1 (France)
Yeah they were so close.

>>3108969
>it seems as though they had to launch their invasions and stand firm against the global power structure.
And it's exactly that attitude why they ended up surrounded by bitter enemies who hate them, having gotten totally BTFO on the diplomatic front and basically uniting everyone in the world against them except for a few clinger-on states who weren't in much of a position to contribute much to the war effort.

They went picking fights everywhere they went and then cried like they were the victims when it became a beat-down

>It was one hell of a raid!
They made a lot of bone-headed decisions which bit them in the ass hard later in the war.

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Oh and i'm sure our colored bros got some of dat masterrace pussy, it was a chance of a lifetime after all

>>3108706
>wooow it took four of you to defeat me

>>3108939
History is pronounced "Istory" if you're British so saying "I'm an historian" is actually 100% grammatically correct and in fact the proper way to pronounce it.

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I know many GIs followed the Soviet example too! It was all one big race for nazi pussy from both sides, i think the Soviets won by a fair margine, altough the GIs weren't to be underestimated either.

>>3108929
Post the picture dude

>>3108938
Except the entire German strategy relied on "White elephants" to counter their inherent weakness as a nation. It's easy to critique with hind-sight, but everything the Germans did was done for a reason, they just had less margin for error than everyone else.

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German women threw themselves eagerly in the hands of conquerors. The Soviets were known to just brutishly pick and take as it suited them, but Americans were nicer. They had German ladies selling themselves to them for a piece of chocolate or a bottle of coca-cola.

>>3108949
If you just rush Moscow you'll still have to deal with Soviet counterattacks around Smolensk and likely arrive just as overextended and exhausted, except in the autumn rain, and you'll have the most tank-heavy Soviet military district on your flank in one of the most industrialized and arable regions of the country.
Besides, the whole weather thing is kind of a meme now. It affected both sides; it's not like Russians had a resistance to mud or snow simply for being Russian. Simple overextension and attrition would harm the Germans year round.

Germany should have landed forces in Leningrad within the first month of war with Russia

>>3108940
>You have absolutely nobody to blame for this shit but yourself faggot. Try turning off the porn box and going outside once in a while instead of scapegoating society for your failings as a person.
It's sad that you're so wrapped up in your conditioning that you can't even see that what you posted has nothing to do with what I said.

>Realizee that I'm casually mocking the suffering of innocent people in order to demonstrate how much better I am than my "enemy" and feel disgusted.
>Hurr stop blaming society for your failings!
It's like there's a script in your head you can't deviate from.

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Pic related is only the logical conclusion of Nazism. This is where all those Hitler's phrases, dreams of lebensraum, dreams of masterrace ended. In a German woman's vagina.

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>>3109093

Shitler's master plan was to breed German women with Slavic men all along!

>>3109069
>you're just a sheep!
Wow...this is...the power...of...Wehraboos...woah

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>>3108872

Anon you are kinda stupid.

For one, the Luftwaffe was overwhelmingly destroyed in the western front. During the Combined Bomber Offensive, the bombers force the luftwaffe to engage the the 8th Air Force's fighter groups, which created unsustainable attrition and eventual collapse of the luftwaffe.

The second thing is that compared to tanks, ships are fucking expensive. An M4 Sherman costs a mere $35,000 to produce. An Iowa class battleship costs $100,000,000, almost as much as 3000 Shermans, or 2000 P-51's. The relationship between the Bismarck/Tirpitz and a Panzer 4 should be similar.

Even the "cheap" ships cost a ton compared to tanks. A Panther costs 117,000 Reichsmarks, a type VII Uboat costs 4.5 million, 40 times as much. Every one of the 750 U boats sunk in the battle of the Atlantic is equivalent to a battalion of Panthers.

Notice how little of the "resource allocation" bar that tanks take up?

>>3108737
what does
"ubity nemetskuyoo sviniyoo" mean?

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>>3108681
>Am i the only person who doesn't consider these men to be White supremacists
Can't be a white supremacist when you genocide half of Europe

>but rather the most impressive modern military warriors of Europe?

>Lost the only war they fought
>Relied on horses
>Resorted to using child soldiers because they got their ass whooped so bad

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>>3108681
You have to go back

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>all of OP's posts
The only thing worse than stormfags are Wehraboos who try to blame everything that went wrong on Hitler.

The Wehrmacht had some advantages in small unit tactics and combined arms early in the war that were magnified by the fact that they consistently took the initiative at the start of the campaign (usually through surprise attacks).

But they had glaring failures almost everywhere. On a tactical level, they had a severe shortage of artillery that they were forced to fill with the Luftwaffe. Their logistics were shit, and for much of the war their forces were running on just a few days' margin of supplies. While the Allies started more mechanized and only got more so as the war went on, the Wehrmacht remained reliant on horses for the majority of logistics. Their Prussian way of thinking was a cancer, with officers and generals more concerned about their personal egos than strategic imperatives. Hitler's interference was not some kind of deus ex machina to ensure the Allies would win, but rather an autocrat managing subordinates he knew weren't exactly reliable. Many of his much-maligned decisions were actually the right decision, and much of what he's blamed for is the result of generals trying to salvage their reputations postwar (looking at you Manstein). And their commanders didn't seem to understand strategic warfighting at all - they were perfectly content to fight their most valuable personnel to death rather than letting them rest and train the next generation.

The Wehrmacht was such a clusterfuck that it's a testament to the incompetence of the Allies early in the war that they even got as far as they did.

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>>3108681
Is this a Wehraboo hate thread?

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>>3109232

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>>3109238

>>3109232
No , take your images dump somewhere else if you are not going to discuss anything

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>>3109246

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>>3109249

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>>3109249
Reminder than "nazi" is hate speech, and my preferred ideological pronoun is "National Socialist" so if you could all respect that it would be great

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>>3109257

>>3108681
Of course they weren't white supremacists. They were German/"Aryan" supremacists. No-one who studies history actually considers them white supremacists.
>rather the most impressive modern military warriors of Europe?
War not make one great. I'm a lot more impressed by warriors who are not beta cucks supporting a genocidal, warmongering regime.

>>3108681
Why is such shitty bait allowed?

>>3109288
Wehraboo threads, along with holocaust threads, Marxist threads, and "hurr why is killing bad" threads are guaranteed to get a couple hundred responses in a few hours

>>3108862
>both are born from a previous war where the loser had shit terms
>both are praised as being tactical geniuses and blame their losses on management from home as opposed to their own strategical and logistical failures
>both have autism for elephants (modern equivalent being giant superweapons with no strategical value)
>both lost horribly in the end and had their country neutered

pretty accurate comparison, only difference is that classical history is a little more obscure, so there are fewer hannibalboos to try to defend his shortcomings

>>3109288
It's a /his/ banter thread basically.

>muh horses
Is this the newest meme people spout when they want to look knowledgeable on a facet of the war they think is unknown? Everybody used horses in the war, this is common knowledge, only the US and their anglo buttbuddies were fully motorized.
Not to mention how each army group had a pool of motor vehicles that could transport thousands of tons of supplies where it was needed.

>>3109032
>>3109012
>>3108977
>>3109032

What does this have to do with anything? Assholes.

>>3109043

The soviets were very incompetent, go ahead and read a few books on their military skills, they were not very smart. Quantity over quality was the name of their game, not brilliant military strategy.

>>3109229

I agree with a lot of what you said. But to attack their generals and commanders and say that they had "no understanding of strategic war fighting at all" does not make any sense to me.

Watch this anon, just so you can see how epic their understanding of warfare actually was. Its a really fun series.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTTwM6pwC0U&t=11s

>>3108724
>Not a single nation on the continent of Europe won during World War II.
Except for the USSR.
You know.
The nation that actually won the war.

>>3109351
Leftists are incapable of appreciating history and will immediately move to supress any discussion of it that does not glorify leftism and it's "inevitable" dialectic triumph over the forces of reaction.

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>>3108681

How could they possibly be white supremacists?

They killed millions upon millions of white soldiers, holocausted 11 million white Europeans, and did more to end white global hegemony than any group on the face of the earth.

Nazis were the most progressive group of people to ever exist, moreso than even modern leftists themselves. Not even fucking memeing.

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>>3109355
>The soviets were very incompetent
In 1941. They learned very fast and had the resources and manpower to absorb the losses that it took to learn.

Take the Stalingrad pocket, for example. Less than a year before, the Soviets had encircled a much smaller force at Demyansk and Kholm in a manner similar to Stalingrad. The Germans performed an airlift, even resorting to the desperate supply drops we saw in the last days of Stalingrad because the Kholm pocket was too small for an airfield. There, the Soviets failed to crush the pockets because the VVS couldn't perform an air blockade. But just six months later at Stalingrad, the VVS and Red Army executed an excellent blockade.

And even with the horrific state of the Red Army in 1941 thanks to the purges of the officer corps, they still excelled in quite a few areas. Their artillery corps remained fairly competent and far more effective than the Wehrmacht even at the outbreak of war. On a strategic level, they again were surprisingly competent. While they failed tactically countless times in 1941, they proved able to raise fresh forces time and again and throw them wherever on the front they were needed. Even after losing millions of men in Barbarossa, the Red Army still had the resources to launch a front-wide offensive at the end of the year - something that would have been difficult enough in the summer, let alone the winter. The Soviets were consistently able to launch massive winter offensives, whereas Axis forces were only ever able to respond with summer offensives over ever-smaller stretches of front as the war went on.

>>3109229
This post in a nutshell
>Wehrmact had low supplies
>Prussians a shit, hated Hitler and were pompous dickheads (as if Operation Valkyrie wasn't evident of this enough)
>Hitler's idealism towards class unity was correct and usually was the right action , but Prussians a shit
As a wehraboo myself I agree with all of this.

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>>3109383
The problem with lots of Wehrmacht generals is that they tended to make lots of pants on head retarded decisions and then turn around and blame Hitler postwar to salvage careers.

Manstein and Rommel are the best examples off the top of my head. Rommel fought an ambitious offensive campaign that his logistics never were able to truly support and wasted men and materiel that could have better been used in a more conservative manner. Manstein loved to take credit for successes but tended to blame Hitler for everything that went wrong. If he couldn't blame Hitler (as with his botched assault on Sevastopol), he tends to conveniently forget the incident in his memoirs.

And many Wehrmacht leaders would follow Manstein's trend postwar - they salvaged their careers by blaming anything that went wrong on Hitler. Doing so absolved them of any wrongdoing in the war and simultaneously distanced themselves from the Nazis and made them viable options as commanders for West German forces.

>>3109430
>Hitler's idealism towards class unity was correct and usually was the right action
No, what I meant was that his military decisions often weren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be, particularly in light of the information he had at hand. Stalingrad is the best example. The 6th Army was exhausted and surrounded, and there wasn't any strategic reserve capable of launching a surprise counteroffensive to break the encirclement. The German Army was already stretched to its limit at Stalingrad and fighting for its life in the Kuban as well as Stalingrad. Winter offensives for the Wehrmacht were unheard of, and even if it were summer they lacked the resources to break the encirclement in time.

Meanwhile, Hitler had the Demyansk pocket just 6 months prior to look to as an example for strategic airlifts and a bunch of yes-men telling him the Luftwaffe totally could do it. Even if he knew the airlift wouldn't work perfectly, there was no other option.

>>3108681
>white supremacy
Adolf was a german supremacist not white he didnt give a shit about whites except Germans.

>>3108862
>The Wehrmacht was the modern day version of Hannibal
is that supposed to be impressive? Hannibal lost.

>>3109488
No he was a white supremacists. Aryan was he older term for Indo European, he thought of Europeans as being superior to all other races.

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>>3108862
>modern day version of Hannibal
>you have no idea how much I have read and understand this matter

hahahahaha holy shit go back to the basement. What makes your opinion/intelligence on the topic relevant at all? Are panzers the new equivalent to elephants? ww2 has been torn apart by historians for decades and none of your *insight* means a damn. hang up that fedora and go to sleep champ

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America was the finest fighting force of the Second World War. The American GI was a fucking mechanized, body stacking skullfucker. America dominated The Germans, The Japs, and The Italians at pretty much every encounter. I can somewhat respect the Germans for kicking ass in the Blitzkrieg days and their bloodbaths on The Eastern Front, but America just was better. Even in a simple thing like equipment Americans were leaps and bounds beyond the average German soldier. Americans had a breathable, comfortable uniform, a fucking quality semi automatic rifle as its main arm, dependable equipment, an easily produced and quality set of tanks and planes. Germans had tech innovations but they never saw their true potential except for the MG42. Their uniforms were woolen parade uniforms. Their main arm was outmatched by the M1. Their vehicles wasted funds, in attempts to build bigger and better things when they had fine tanks and planes at the wars start. Germany is hailed as innovators of war tech. That may be but it isnt useful if it isnt fielded properly.

TLDR: America>Germany because they used what was available to max potential and didnt fuck around with useless shit.

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>>3109395

Lol, no they didn't. Their male population is still in decline and the soviet union would collapse a few years later. Not to mention countless of cities and historical monuments completely destroyed.

USA was the only winner.

>>3109425

Thank you sir! I have so much respect for all the men that fought in world war II, it hurts!

>>3109427

Excellent stuff! Your stating a lot of facts here! Soviet artillery was very impressive, I'm forgetting the name of one of there rapid fire artillery pieces, they would fire multiple of these machines at once, terrifying stuff!

It was named after a Russian song i believe. Katyusha? So bad ass.

But in terms of man power and machinery the soviet used their resources so inefficiency, and efficiency is the German's primary attribute.

>>3109229

You make a lot of great points. But i firmly believe that the Wehrmacht was capable of winning if hitler would have left the war to his generals. I firmly believe it.

>>3109557

No way man, he was a german nationalist. They murdered millions of other white people too, to say they were white supremacists makes no sense to me.

>>3109011
That is the stupidest Limey convention I've ever read, even dumber than calling french fries "chips".

>>3109395
T. Someone who posts RT as an objective source about current politics and international relations

>>3108697
>National Socialism.
t. totally not a neo-nazi

>>3108808
>All I'm doing is stating facts sir.
No you aren't. You don't even know what a 'superpower' is, you insufferably cretin.

Get the fuck out and stop pretending you have any idea what you're talking about.

>>3109789
*insufferable

>>3108869
>tu quoque
What a low effort response.

>>3108896
David Irving is not a proper historian, just so you know.

>>3109789

Fuck off you nasty person, you haven't contributed to the thread at all, you just bitching and moaning.

>>3108681
white supremacy is american racism you retarded ape

>>3109732
>You make a lot of great points. But i firmly believe that the Wehrmacht was capable of winning if hitler would have left the war to his generals. I firmly believe it.
Well then you're firmly retarded.

Literally nothing would have saved Germany from defeat, let alone actually had them win the war. The British were never going to surrender, and there was nothing the Germans could do to force them to make peace. The combined Axis forces couldn't even suppress Malta despite it literally being on their doorstep and isolated from Allied bases. Winning a war against the two greatest industrial powers the world has ever seen was impossible.

>>3109427
>Their artillery corps remained fairly competent and far more effective than the Wehrmacht even at the outbreak of war.
you know that german artillery was the best in the war right?

quantity is not quality in one vs one

>>3109821

Nigga please, keep your insults.

1. England would have no army if they were massacred on the beaches of Dunkirk.

2. Moscow would have fallen if hitler did not intervene thus Soviet Union would have collapsed. You could argue that they would not have collapsed, but i would disagree.

Calculated risk bro, it was a calculated risk that failed. But one thing is for curtain

The Wehrmacht could have defeated any nation on the face of the earth at that time 1v1, thus they were the best modern military fighting force in history. The American military is today, but they learned alot of what they know have from the Wehrmacht.

>>3109732
>But i firmly believe that the Wehrmacht was capable of winning if hitler would have left the war to his generals. I firmly believe it.
Probably the only realistic way the Axis could have won would have been by beating the Allies to nuclear weapon technology. No matter how well the Axis did military, they wouldn't have been able to occupy the UK or the US, which means that the Allied nuclear weapons program would have continued. Which means that come 1945, Axis cities would have started getting nuked and the Axis would have been forced to surrender. So the Wehrmacht was really of little importance. What they did or didn't do could make the war shorter or longer, but unless the Axis somehow managed to catch up to the Allied nuclear program, the Axis would lose.

>>3109849
>England would have no army if they were massacred on the beaches of Dunkirk.
So what? England would still have such a strong navy and air force that the Germans would have no hope of occupying the British islands.
>Moscow would have fallen if hitler did not intervene thus Soviet Union would have collapsed. You could argue that they would not have collapsed, but i would disagree.
Perhaps. But then in 1945 Berlin and a bunch of other German cities get nuked and the Axis still loses.

>>3109712
You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded. You're spewing pop-history and trying to hide behind pretending to be civil to give credence to arguments that have no factual basis.

>muh efficiency
You're falling for the kill/loss ratio argument, which is retarded. The majority of the disparity in losses comes from Barbarossa, where millions of Soviets were taken prisoner and ultimately killed. Differences in tactics and a willingness to sacrifice men for strategic objectives meant that the Soviets did likely suffer moderately higher losses, but they're nothing like the Germans so claimed.

And in terms of actual efficiency of equipment, no the Germans didn't use their resources efficiently. They wasted so many resources on retarded programs - everything from their oft-cited superweapons to unnecessarily complicated vehicles that were significantly more expensive to produce than their Allied contemporaries for marginal improvements in performance. The Germans wasted tens of thousands of guns defending the Reich because panicking mayors wouldn't listen to Kammhuber. They wasted manpower and potential by brutally oppressing locals in occupied eastern Europe that would have otherwise joined them - and yes, the myth of the "clean" wehrmacht is just that. They flew their pilots literally to their deaths, as they didn't seem to grasp the concept of training replacements.

>>3109849
>Moscow would have fallen if hitler did not intervene
How, exactly?

>>3108823
We get it dude and I agree with you, the Wehrmacht knew what the fuck they were doing when it came to the actual fighting, its just too bad their leadership was always getting they're shit pushed in by the Nazi Party and that their logistics were still WWI tier.

But as I said, their tactical prowess was almost unmatched but that doesn't win anyone any wars Anon.

>>3108901
>be one of the few men on the Western Front to actively BTFO the Germans
>realize the Germans weren't the biggest threat in Germany
>wanted to take on the real threat in the East
>(((die))) in a jeep accident

Patton was too good for this Earth anyways, I wonder who he reincarnated into

>>3109878
he probably means Guderian going south to Kiev pocket

but like every hardcore wehraboo he fails to understand how horse logistics works

>>3109849
Nigger please, stop being retarded.

An army-less England still has the Royal Navy and an air force that the Luftwaffe can't suppress, and the Wehrmacht has no amphibious assault capabilities in 1940.

Moscow would not have fallen if Operation Typhoon was launched early instead of Army Group Center turning south to encircle Kiev. Army Group Center merely would have petered out short of Moscow as before, maybe getting a little closer before bogging down in the suburbs, as they had stopped after Smolensk because they had outrun their logistics. Then, as they're stopped, a few of those million or so men in that giant salient to their south you've conveniently ignored would come up north and encircle Army Group Center.

>The Wehrmacht could have defeated any nation on the face of the earth at that time 1v1
First of all, no. They fought effectively alone against the Soviets, and even after inflicting massive casualties on them they still couldn't win.

Second of all, it doesn't matter. War isn't fair, and part of being "good" at war is ensuring that you don't get yourself into a war that you can't win.

>>3109895
>but like every hardcore wehraboo he fails to understand how horse logistics works
Or, you know, the danger of leaving a salient of a million or so soldiers on your flank.

>>3109849
>Soviet Union would have collapsed.
no the SU, but the STAVKA being forced out of Moscow would had been a disaster for the red army since all the communication equipment would be certainly lost and they would not had been able to coordinate a winter counter offensive

>>3109895
>le horses
>>3109340
Guderian's armoured divisions didn't even use horses anyways.

>>3109916
>le horses
is not a meme tho
>Guderian's armoured divisions didn't even use horses anyways.
yeah sending a panzergruppe without infantry support is a great idea

Also stop baiting please

>>3108784
>The Wehrmacht did not lose the war
Are you just completely fucing stupid? The wehrmacht lost the war. They were beaten by the allies.

>>3109920
>is not a meme tho
It is, short range transport was done by horses, while the moving of supplies to depots was done by tons of trucks
>yeah sending a panzergruppe without infantry support is a great idea
>implying panzer divisions don't have attached infantry

Once again, I submit that all this discussion is beside the point. In 1945 German cities were going to start getting nuked. The only way Germany could have prevented that was by catching up to the Allied nuclear program. The Wehrmacht is almost irrelevant.

>>3108949
>i believe
>Thus making the Wehrmacht the better fighting force
So you're saying that the Wehrmacht is the better fighting force because you believe so?

>>3109939
Cont. Although I suppose that if the Wehrmacht defeated and occupied the USSR, AND Hitler was willing to give the Western Allies some massive concessions (probably at minimum: pull out from France and Scandinavia and Africa, turn against Japan)... the Western Allies might have chosen peace. But it would have been a long shot.

>>3109931
>implying panzer divisions don't have attached infantry
great, I want to see you taking moscow using tanks and motorized infantry, if you get the fuel to do it
>It is, short range transport was done by horses, while the moving of supplies to depots was done by tons of trucks
it was done by trains, but due to the SU having different track gauge this end up being problematic to the german army

also the trucks were almost all reserved for the panzer divisions

also here is a fun fact, even at day one the german army had a shortage of fuel units for panzer divisions

in short considering all the german would had never been able to capture Moscow with Guderian panzergruppe due to logistical problems (inb4 airlift, Goring have a cake and leave)

>>3109950
>Giving Hitler concessions
Yes, great idea there Chamberlain.

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>>3109861
>>3109895
>>3109852
>>3109878
>>3109880

Watch this series anons, its not too long and really fun to watch. Just goes to show what military was more impressive in regards to modern warfare on the eastern front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTTwM6pwC0U

>>3109899

Ive already said your second point. But for you to think that the Soviets had the tactical knowledge to conduct a massive encirclement operation on army group center at that point in the war is absurd. They were still figuring out how to conduct modern warfare at that point, army group center would have been perfectly fine taking the city of Moscow then turning south and destroying the Soviet armies in the south around Kiev with the help of army group south.

Only a large portion of their strength was facing the soviets, not the full might of the German war machine. And your right, it does not matter really.

>>3109927

You only quoted half my sentence.

>>3109971
>army group center would have been perfectly fine taking the city of Moscow then turning south and destroying the Soviet armies in the south around Kiev
Jesus christ, stop posting.

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>>3109971
>you tube videos

>>3109965
Read again. I'm talking about Hitler giving the Allies concessions.

>>3109945

No i have facts to back it up, and there are particular historical events that make me believe so.

>>3109939

But anon, didn't the majority of nuclear scientists come from Germany? They had their own program going swell i think, i have not read on this matter though so I'm guessing.

Why is everybody failing to this cheap bait?

sage

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>>3109971
We know the Germans practically brought the world into the era of modern warfare, Guderian pretty much invented mechanized warfare for Christs sake. I was never denying their tactical prowess, I'm just saying that you can't depend on just that to win a war.

The US perfected amphibious operations to an art but the US Marines couldn't have won the war in the Pacific with that alone, they had a massive fleet and strong supply lines to back them up. Just like the Germans, I don't mean to downplay their tenacity in combat.

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>>3109971
>But for you to think that the Soviets had the tactical knowledge to conduct a massive encirclement operation on army group center at that point in the war is absurd
Ah yes, just like how it was impossible for the Soviets to launch a front-wide offensive in the dead of winter after suffering literally millions of casualties?

>>3109985

Its fun to watch though, check it out.

>>3109997

Its not cheap bait, i enjoy hearing other peoples opinions on this matter. Im a huge fan of WWII history.

>>3109992
>But anon, didn't the majority of nuclear scientists come from Germany?
Not really. Germany, the UK, the US, and various other countries had all contributed greatly to nuclear physics by that point. And Hitler getting rid of the Jewish physicists and pissing off a bunch of non-Jewish scientists set them back even further.
The Nazi program was something like 2-5 years behind the Allied program. Also keep in mind that the Allies conducted their nuclear program in such secrecy that Hitler never realized the scope of the danger. So even if the Wehrmacht were doing well, Hitler would have seen no reason to devote more resources to his own nuclear program, since it seems to me based on the sources I've read that he had no idea of how game-changing it was. Which means that the Nazis would probably not even have tried to catch up to the Allies.

>>3109992
>No i have facts to back it up
You really don't. You've been refuted at every turn.

>But anon, didn't the majority of nuclear scientists come from Germany?
No. The German nuclear program was fundamentally flawed from the start. Science critical to understanding nuclear physics was associated with the Jews by the Germans and thus discouraged, and for a while their program was pursuing methods that just wouldn't work at all. At their best the Germans were where the Manhattan project was at its start.

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>>3108681

You're right.

You can't be a white supremacist when 90% of the people you killed in your genocides where white. You're an enemy of the white race if anything.

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>>3109999

Dude, every time i read about that counter offensive it blows my mind. Thoughs troops they transferred over Siberia were tough as nails in regards to winter fighting as well.

The man power reserves of the soviet union is literally jaw dropping, but it was quantity over quality in comparison to the Wehrmacht.

But yeah, they could not conduct an encirclement operation on army group center 3 months into the war.

>>3109998

Excellent stuff anon, the Americans really did spear head developments in regards to amphibious warfare. They were literally island hoping across the pacific.

>>3108784
>The Wehrmacht did not lose the war

The OKW was stacked full of Hitler's cronies and their poor planning absolutely contributed to Germany's downfall.

>>3110013

This. Interesting information anon!

>>3110017

Im considering all opinions. i mean, its really fun to discuss this war, it changed humanity forever.

>>3110023

Its a true fact, they really did annihilate other Europeans on a level never before seen. Makes me sad. No other fully industrialized states have fought since, they are learning from Europe and Asias mistakes.

>>3110024
>muh siberian divisions
No.

>muh quality
>again
You're retarded.

>Can't conduct an encirclement operation
They literally did as part of the General Offensive they launched that winter. That's how the Demyansk and Kholm pockets were formed.

>>3110041
>Im considering all opinions
And there's your problem. You're giving equal weight to both sides and picking the one that sounds cooler because you're retarded. Opinions don't matter. Facts do.

>>3108837
>exterminated white people in eastern europe

slavs are not white

>>3110050


Lol, the Germans literally avoided all their major encirclement attempts frozen and undersupplied. It was an impressive tactical retreat, many generals of the Wehrmacht disregarded Hitlers orders. They would have never even been in that position if hitler listened to his generals, they would have reached Moscow several weeks prior.

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>>3110061

I would consider them white...their slavs...but my modern day standards they are definitely white

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>>3110067
>the Germans literally avoided all their major encirclement attempts frozen and undersupplied
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket

>>3110067
>They would have never even been in that position if hitler listened to his generals, they would have reached Moscow several weeks prior
Ah yes, they would instead be dealing with the mud, the same Soviet resistance and resulting attrition, the same shitty roads and high rates of vehicle breakdowns among hundreds of different types of vehicles, the same poorly managed and overstretched railroads, all with a massive million man bulge in their flank.

>>3109844
This is literally, completely, 100% wrong.

I know what you're going to say. You're going to say, "muh 88's." But one good field piece does not a good artillery doctrine make.

German artillery took, on average, 30 minutes from the report in the field to land on the position. The average time for Americans was 2 minutes.

One of your nazi officers, on surrendering, demanded to see where "all the automatic artillery guns" the crazy americans had invented.

Germans LITERALLY BLOWN THE FUCK OUT

>>3110091
He will claim that thats not a major encirclement.

>>3110102
don't forget how heavily fortified Moscow was, it would have been Stalingrad-tier except even worse.

>>3110091

Lol, whats your point. I read the whole thing, that was a minor encirclement, nothing major.

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>>3110105
you fucking called it
>>3110114

>>3110104
I don't know the specifics, but Soviet artillery practices were pretty impressive from what I've read.

At Sevastopol in 1941 they ended up holding their own in artillery duels with the Germans, and only with concentrated fire from the Czech (not German, those were shit) siege guns and Luftwaffe bombers were the Germans able to silence the Soviet guns.

That and the performance of Soviet artillery at Khalkhin Gol was pretty impressive, if only for the logistical feat of it all.
>nearest Soviet railhead is a 4-day drive away
>Japanese railhead is half day drive
>Soviets start barrage
>Japanese respond with their guns
>Soviets start firing faster
>More Soviet guns appear
>Japanese guns start getting annihilated
>Japns run out of ammo
>Soviet guns keep firing faster
>ammo continues to pile up faster than the Soviets can shoot it

>>3110105
>>3110120

Read the last paragraph in the first portion. The Germans successfully defended Demyansk with a revolutionary innovation.

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>>3110142
But that's not what you were claiming now, was it, you goalpost-moving double nigger.

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>>3110146

Bro.

>>3108780
No they're not.

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>>3110157
I'm not your bro, guy.

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>>3110161

Contribute you snob faggot.

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>>3110177
>old reddit memes

>>3110109
Moscow was 10 times the size of Stalingrad population wise. Hitler and Halder envisaged a broad encirclement of the city, but the high command wanted a limited attack instead a push through the center of Moscow if it needed to be assaulted due to supply concerns. It would have been a nightmare to move through a city that size with an army that battered.

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>>3108681
The military prowess of Germany is undeniable. However, it should be considered that war is not just about fighting on the battlefield. War is most of all politics and it's also about industrial capacity. Clausewitz knew this in the 19th century already and despite his works being an heavy influence on any kind of German doctrine, German grand strategy has always been severely lacking. Germany tried to brute force a problem that cannot be solved by brute force. Once a war surpasses a certain scale it cannot be won by merely fighting better than the other and no amount of miracle weapons and tactical superiority is going to change that.

>>3110252
Maybe the Germans should've taken more political considerations from Clausewitz's work into account by thinking about declaring war on half the world instead autistically focusing on the military doctrines of "muh force of will solves everything, always attack"

>they weren't white supremecists
>they were just fighting for an ideology that said that certain people were less human than them

>>3108784
The Wehrmacht got send into war planned for much later. They had no real chance of winning as the opposition did not fracture. So yeah. It lost. And it was completely useless to begin with.

>>3110261
>Germans should've taken more political considerations
not defending Germany, but the problem is that Germany's very existence is a huge political problem. German unification completely shattered the balance of power and every single country feared what a military and industrial colossus could do. Wilhelm II and Hitler didn't single-handedly create Germany diplomatic isolation, but they certainly exacerbated it and made no decision to try to rectify their isolation.

>>3108703
Source: Your ass

>>3109844
Not only were they worse at supplying their artillery with ammunition, the Nazis also had shit-tier self-propelled guns and a longer time-on-target than every nation except the Soviets (even then, the Soviet army was better at keeping their guns supplied than the Wehrmacht).

>>3108784
>ive read this popular history book and watched a 10minute video guys im 16 and the wehmacht was best!

i forgive you because i was like this, read actual military history

>>3110104
Any books on this?

>>3110104
When you have complete superiority on all is pretty easy to do that

>You need 2 superpowers and their allies to defeat Poland
wtf I am afraid of Poland now

>>3108706
No, you're a Wehraboo

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Might as well share some Soviet tactics/strats:
>The Soviet infantry offensive is made by infantry supported by artillery, tanks, engineers, and aviation as the situation demands. It is generally in the form of simultaneous attacks on a broad front with concentrations of artillery and, particularly, tanks in the break-through area. The attack seeks to penetrate the enemy defenses in two or more sectors and converge on a limited objective; its mission is to encircle or envelop enemy groupings and destroy them by simultaneous attacks from all directions.
>The objectives of decentralized defense are to deny the enemy use of terrain, to divide his attacking forces, and to destroy him by numerous local counterattacks on the initiative of the local ground commander
>The centralized type of defense seeks, by employing obstacles or by maneuver, to channelize the enemy attack in a given direction in order to gain a more favorable position for a decisive counterattack with heavily armored units and concentrations of massed artillery. Dummy positions and false fortifications used extensively. A favorite Soviet maneuver is to allow the enemy to penetrate deeply into the lines and trap him in a fire sack.
>According to Soviet doctrine, speed of maneuver, seizure of favorable terrain, and quick deployment of main forces and artillery upon contact are essential. Aggressive reconnaissance, ground and air, is continual throughout the operation. Usually, a strong advance guard is utilized. An attack upon the flank is sought. The fullest use of artillery at the earliest possible moment is made.
>The Red Army Air Force is to support the Red Army in all operations. It assists the artillery in the preparation for an offensive, supports the ground forces during the breakthrough, and covers them during disengaging operations by attacking enemy ground formations. In addition, it attacks enemy airfields, lines of communication, reserves, and performs reconnaissance.

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>>3111279
Fuck, turned out a bit like a mess, but whatever.
>Soviet military theorists formulated and implemented the Combined arms of the concept and the theory of deep battle ("glubokii boi") and deep operations ("glubokaya operatsiya"). The difference between the Two lies in the scope of the mission. The The essence of the concept is the desire of the first Suppression of the enemy's offensive thrusts with strikes throughout the Depths of his tactical zone and limited offensive tactical thrusts. This is Accomplished by the breakthrough of the enemy's tactical defensive zone In the selected sector, follow-up strikes throughout the enemy's tactical rear Area, and the subsequent rapid exploitation of tactical success into operational- Level success. Nonetheless, while the breakthrough and exploitation Tactical phases were critical, winning air supremacy, isolating the Zone of conflict from approaching enemy reserves, and blocking enemy Logistical efforts were also thought to be important considerations for the Achievement of operational success.

>>3109167
Kill the German pigs/swine

>>3108856
eternal cucking of the germans, reminding them of the rape of Berlin

>>3108706
>I'm an historian.

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>>3108681
Even if you think they were impressive they were still literal white supremacists who believed their Germanic ancestry made them superior.

>>3111448
>literal white supremacists
Nearly every white person was a white supremacist in those times.

>>3108681
They're good people in the wrong time and place. Between colonial superpowers like France, Britain and Russia, German would either become a superpower on its own or be absorbed.

>>3111137
>I play a Game of Pretend
What tells you that the anon didn't actually read up on the matter and uses the video as an example. Fucking uppidy assholes, I swear.

>>3111461
Not to the crazy genocidal extent of the Nazi party though.

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>>3109221
you fucking copied my meme, I'll sue you
>>3109225
>>3109232
>>3109238
you don't need to deride fallen soldiers in order to put a Naziboo/Wehraboo in his place.

>>3109263
"Nazi" is term invented by Jacob Gobbelbaum, look at his book "Nazi-Sozi"

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>>3111513
Fairly certain the picture anon posted is much, much older than yours. Seen it here and on other boards way before yours.

>>3108697
>under national socialism
the German army's competence had nothing to do with national socialism but rather with hundreds of years of Prussian military tradition

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>>3110141
Soviets in Finland invented thing called "Fire five"
You need perfect comunication and timing between artilery and "front units". Artilery starts firing, soldiers and tanks attack, artilery continues firing but moved their fire like you see on pic, this results in massive casualities of retreating Krauts and gives you higher chance of breaking enemy lines, since you dont attack line by line while stopping at every trench waiting for artilery, but attack without stopping while artilery moves its fire.

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>>3108681
no

>alternate memes

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>>3111569
*Fire wave

>>3111538
>the german army would still be able to have taken over the world without the nazis intense military build up, passion and focus on a strong military

>>3111573
>>3111569
btw that text without number is enemy artilery poistion, they know where it is, because Krauts fired at Soviet artilery/attacking troops

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>>3111523
fuck

>>3108681
>modern military warriors of Europe
>modern

They had horses...what were they thinking?!

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>>3111608
It's ok, anon. I like your meme just as much.

>>3111501
Only darkies Nazis were genocidal against were gypsies.

>>3111644
t-thanks

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>>3108681
The Wehrmacht are not necessarily White supremacists but Waffen SS definitely are White supremacists.

Pic here is the one who sided with Chinese.

>>3111631
https://youtu.be/K_DnRn9hyFU

>>3111144
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3ixrvq/did_the_semiautomatic_m1_garand_give_the/cukognb/

They do a great job of sourcing, and touch on why America was so dominant. It was, amusingly enough, in part thanks to a small army of women calculators painstakingly mapping out literally all of Europe for America to drop shells on.

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the finest young men in the history of the world
killed off to make Europe multicultural
was it worth it, Anglo cunts?
maybe you should have terror bombed Moskva in stead of Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden etc?

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>>3112099

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>>3112099
>finest young men in the history of the world

lol no

>killed off to make Europe multicultural

Literally no one wanted multiculturalism at the time, Churchill was one of the fervent advocates of British hegemony.

>was it worth it, Anglo cunts?

As we Americans say, "any fate but submission."

>maybe you should have terror bombed Moskva in stead of Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden etc?

The Soviets weren't the ones terror bombing England on a daily basis for almost two years.

Also Moscow is out of range of Allied aircraft by several thousand miles. They couldn't have bombed it even if they wanted to.

>>3112099
>muh Dresden

>>3109849
I'd like to see the Wehrmacht try and take on America 1v1. That would be pretty funny.

>>3112099
>killed off to make Europe multicultural
I think they were repelled because they wanted to conquer, enslave and genocide quite a lot of people.

>>3108685
>won war against Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Jugoslavia, Greece, Norway, Denmark
>lost war against America, Russia and Great Britain(all it's colonies included) only after 5 years of heavy fighting

>>3112099
the crop of the cream died in 1914.

>>3108681
>Claim you are the master race and that might makes right
>Get your shit pushed in by "subhumans" in the only war you ever fight
>Cry about it ever since

Is there anything more pathetic than a G*rm?

>>3113165
>while having Japan, Italy, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, Siam, Vichy France, Slovakia and Iraq on its side

>>3113165
You can play on the hardest difficulty in a game, but it's not impressive if you lose anyway.

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>>3113165
>beating the nation state equivalents of the short bus is impressive
>Getting your shit slapped by all the world's powers simultaneously is impressive

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>>3112099

>>3108706
>Tell that to France.
Germany won almost entirely due to incompetence on the part of the French, They couldn't have been luckier in the way the French made mistakes. The battle of France doesn't speak highly of the German army it speaks poorly of the French generals.
>Tell that to Englands entire expeditionary force
They escaped France largely intact and later returned and drove the Germans back into Germany and forced their unconditional surrender.
>Tell that to Poland
This is like the US bragging about how we stomped Saddam's army in 1990. Woohoo you defeated a militarily irrelevant country with the assistance of the USSR. Congratulations, so when are you and Mike Tyson going to beat up a third grader?
>Tell that to Norway. Tell that to Greece. Tell that to Yugoslavia.
See above
>You know what, you tell that to the tens of millions of Russian men that died fighting them.
Why not tell it to the corpses of Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler? Germany lost, K:D ratio is unimportant.

>Four world superpowers....on three fronts to defeat them.
You know what would have been more impressive? If they had actually won like the French Republic and Empire did during the wars of the first through fifth coalitions. Besides Germany had numerous allies in the form of Japan, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary.

They deserved the swiftest defeat

>>3113329
Not your call to make.

>>3112099
Maybe don't stigmatise right wing politics and white supremacy

>>3110848
Not him, but its true. The germans had hands down the best LMGs (MG-34, MG-42) in WW2, and based their squad tactics around it.

The american equivilents were the BAR (lol 20 rounds) and the M1919 (lol 30 pounds).

The german doctrine was so efficient, they made training films to teach soldiers what to do when they came up against heavy german MG fire.

After the war, the US ammended their small arms doctrine to be around the LMG (M-60 and later the M-240 and M-249) and now every squad in the US military utilizes at least one LMG.

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>>3108859
who'd have thought people don't like warmongers and don't like pseudohistory painting them as muh ultimate fighting force when they were categorically decimated on every front unless they were invading countries they promised not to invade?

regardless of how you feel about 'lack of objectivity' there's good reason for it.

>>3109849
>The Wehrmacht could have defeated any nation on the face of the earth at that time 1v1
Oh yeah, germany didn't need half of their steel supply from sweden/norway, their chrome from Turkey, their oil from Romania, all kind of shit from spain, mostly diamonds and platinum, and the hundreds of thousands of volontiers from all across Europe
That was all garbage i guess

>>3114881
You forgot about cooperation with USSR.

>>3109849
Boi they couldn't even beat the UK, let alone something actually impossible for them, like the US.

>>3114388
German small unit tactics were machinegun-based (everyone supports the machinegunner, who's supposed to do the killing rather than the other way around like everyone else did), which is the reason for the disparity.

Even so, the Allies did have their share of excellent light machineguns like the Bren or DP-28. And unlike the MG 34 and MG 42, they didn't have uselessly high fire rates that burned through ammo far faster than necessary.

>but they trained around dealing with machineguns!
So? Training against enemy tactics isn't anything spectacular.

>>3113784
NatSoc eternally BTFO

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>>3108681
TRULY

THE MASTER RACE

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>>3108706
They lost.. We all had a good laugh while they cried "muh dresden" and "muh rapes". Give it up krautshill

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>>3108784
Cringe post. Reminds me of when I was 14

Wehrmacht didn't inflict 2:1 kill ratio on soviet army. They just killed a lot of civilians, which only pissed the Soviets off more

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>>3116551
Stop posting the fake Dresden picture. It's been concluded that it is false. The rubble are just a bunch of props

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Are Wehrboos the only fags cucked enough to be proud of having their idols BTFO?

This "sure we got btfo, but at least we did kind of well at first" is the same mental gymnastics the arabs use for the 1973 war.

>>3108862
You're right, but they also shared a similar fate.

>>3108813
This part
>Zealous butchers
This part always pisses me off because it just makes the Nazis look like monsters or demons, playing up their legend. I wouldn't give a shit and most of the right wing people you talk about would not give a shit if they were just labeled what they are, normal soldiers with crazy leaders. At a certain point, fuck heads like you made the Nazis popular for the right wing nut jobs.

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>>3108706
Let me guess your resume, mr. historian

-Enemy at the Gates (2001 film)
-Some melodramatic History Channel doc from 2002
-picture books in the discount isle of barnes & noble like pic related
-Something "somebody" once told you
-/pol/ infograph
-Youtube AMV
-your feel feels

>>3108862
Hannibal also lost and committed suicide because he couldn't handle the bantz. Maybe you're onto something

>>3108706
Why are posting polish cosplayer m8? This guy on your pic is Krzysiek

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>>3116580
Because non-aryans make the best aryans

lmao@that revelation though. Poor /pol/ can never catch a break on this board

>>3112099
Never forget 10 trilion germans

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>Lose Battle of Britain
>Invade USSR
>Troops retreating at Moscow
>Declare war on US

What did they mean by this?

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>>3116591
25D chess, slav untermensch.

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>>3112099
Dresden was never bombed. It's a myth.

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Read this niggers. Very good book T B H

>>3116594
We need to add >>3116560 as well in that infograph

>>3116595
Seconding this, great incite on German economy and how Nazis fucked with it (Exports dropping by 10% etc.).

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>>3116595
This gets posted every day
i've never seen anything that BTFOs /pol/ delusions so thoroughly

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>>3116594
>>3116599
Done and done.

>>3116603
Adam Tooze is a jew

>>3110158
yes they do

lions led by a delusional nutcase

>>3116618
amazing rebuttal

>>3108929
So you fully admit that you're entirely contraian?
Look at the make up of the current American government.

>>3116593
I read an article about how plywood planes were initially more effiicent than the first fielded steel planes, was that true or nah?

>>3116749
Steel is heavy af and dural used to be expensive.

From perspective of material wood makes a lot of sense.

>>3108929
ebin.
Post photo

>>3116560
Dresden? More like Dresdin't happen!

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>>3116683

>he actually thinks /pol/ can be reasoned with when they already believe everything is a Jewish conspiracy

>>3116749
There are advantages to wood fuselage and fabric skin, like cannon rounds not exploding on them, but they can't go as fast

>>3108795
hes celebrating

>>3108795
Never heard the expression "everyone in the club put your hands up"? He''s having the time of his life!

>>3108706
>Four world superpowers

When will people stop using this word retardedly?
The only two superpowers that ever existed in history were the USA and the USSR, and they only became that after WW2

>>3117295
What about the British Empire at its peak?

>>3117333
It was a joke, as proven by their performance in WW1

>>3117333
Superpowers are a meme of the post world war, Britain was an Empire of which there were many, it just had the most land

>>3117333
They considered themselves a great power

>>3108685
fpbp

>>3117339
>as proven by their performance in ww1
About the same as all the rest of them on land, but naturally had total dominion over the sea?

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>>3108706
>im an historian

>>3108862
>calling me a right wing apologist is a grevious insult
>trust me guys im really smart and ive read a lot of books
>"Your hopeless"

>>3108681
No, you're not the only one. Evola, Yockey, and your humble servant also believed so. See here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141108100555/http://thompkins_cariou.tripod.com/id54.html