>That wasn't real communism >Communism has never been

>>3106634
>communism is inevitable because an autistic german pieced together unrelated historical patterns

>>3106644
That one's my favorite.

>Hehe I see that you have historical precedent and research on your side but the creator of my ideaology said [thing]. Better luck next time.

>>3106634
>I don't understand the theory and think pictures of sad russian babies are arguments

>>3106682
>Theory somehow trumps all practical application

>>3106682
>You just dont understan! Read Das Capital and then you'll get.
>[read Das Capital]
>[Dislike it and want to argue it]
>You're just working against/for your class interest because you've been brought up in/brainwashed by capitalists

>>3106702
>implying you've ever read Das Kapital
>implying you read books ever

>>3106682
>kills millions every time
>BUT MUH UTOPIA!

>>3106710
>anyone who disagrees with me is unintelligent or uninformed

>>3106634
>entire thread is greentext

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>>3106710
Your theory is fucking garbage!

>>3106717
>implying you aren't both of those things

>>3106736
>Could someone maybe have a reason to believe what they do
>no no they must be stupid. It's the only way they could believe something I don't.

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>>3106682
>Achieving communism is more important than human life

Haha oh wow!

> all communist Nations failed
> BUT DAT WASN'T REAL COMMUNISM

>>3106809
>Well you see that's actually a common misconception. They were communist until they failed. Obviously some counter revolutionaries or some caputalists ruined everything because as we all know communism is infallible. The actual line between what is and isn't communism is success.

>>3106780
>implying you do
>implying you aren't

>>3106809
>>3106634

The 'Communism hasn't been tried argument' is actually legitimate.

Let's go through the self proclaimed socialist states

>The USSR
>Workers didn't control the Means of Production, not socialist. Except in Andropov era.
>Cuba
>Workers also didn't control them, not socialist
>China
>hahaha, I don't need to explain this.
>North Korea
>workers also didn't control means of production.
We say this about these nations because of this reason. The 2 best examples of workers legimately controlling the means of production are Catalonia and the Free territory of Ukraine. Both these states failed, but not economically. The difference is, you're too retarded to actually know anything about these places so continue to cry 'haha le not real communism le helicopters xd'

>>3106805
>>3106712

No one EVER doies under capitalism, except when they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

>>3106702
We both know you haven't read Das Kapital.

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>>3106634
>but even if that stuff happened back then, we've progressed as a species. Modern communism has a chance to succe-

>>3106940
Venezuela hasn't been socialist in years. It underwent mass privatization after Chavez' death, and the current economic situation was caused by the US and UK pushing down oil value, which is the export Venezuela's naturally dependent on. In fact, it had some of the best living standards during the Chavez era.

>>3106882
>purest forms of Marxism ever implemented
>failed
>it dosent count because they failed socially! Not economically!

>>3106634
What if

woah

what if

communism is utopic and can never be tried?

woaaah

>>3106882
People do die under capitalism. They just die alot more under communism.

>>3106906
It's impossible to have read Das Capital and disagree with it's to any of the adherents to the cult that uses it as a holy text. So a more accurate thing for you to say would be

>We both know that I'm not going to consider that you may have read Das Capital.

Since the first instinct of a lesser marxist when challenged is to always claim that the other party is ignorant or incapable and then avoid further confrontation that consists of anything other than adhoms.

>>3106968
Military failure is hardly the measure of an ideology. Democratic nations have fallen to fascist states dozens of times, does that mean fascism's better?

>>3106986
BMP explains why this isn't slightly true very well. If you have 10 minutes, watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnIsdVaCnUE

>>3107003
>Since the first instinct of a lesser marxist

oh brother


why do right wingers always dramatize politics like its fucking star wars?

>>3106634
>That wasn't real communism
>Communism has never been tried
True, Communism is not something that's tried, it's something that's achieved. It's a carrot on a stick, it's heaven on earth for the irreligious.
>Communism is objectively superior to all known forms of economic organization
Marx envisioned communism as the productive boom of capitalism, without capitalism itself. That the development of productive forces becomes an end of itself.
It's incredibly idealistic and naive.
>The west should try communism despite the last 60 years' history
God no, all leftists today apart from Zizek are fucking retards.
>Mao totally modernized China and Deng Xaioping had nothing to do with it
I don't think there's anyone who's retarded enough to make that claim.
>Russia Never would have modernized without communism
I've heard people say this, and it's false. Russia would have industrialized and modernized, and it would have become a much more powerful, free and economically stable and prosperous. But it would have taken a long time, and the main obstacle was poor education. Education is the one point where socialism has had a good effect on Russia. By jump starting primary schools.

>>3106882
>No one EVER doies under capitalism, except when they do
Hmm. Well then. Have you ever considered that maybe it wasn't real capitalism.

>>3106964
so socialist nations can't compete with capitalist nations, well no shit when no socialist nation has ever lasted even a hundred years they are always either conquered, or out competed obviously socialism sucks

>>3107029
What? How the hell did you take that away from my post?

Venezuela hasn't been socialist for 4 years. And Oil prices affect every ideology.

>>3107016
Define right wing. Also how am I right wing?

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>>3106700
>trump

>>3107016
The literal thesis of communism is a good vs evil narrative about eternal exploitation. Are you fucking kidding me.

>>3107048
>it's a good vs evil narrative

Here's how we know you haven't read marx.

>>3107035
capitalism isn't ideology its an economic system and its hilarious that once venezuala starts to fail oh no suddenly they are not socialist thats bullshit

>>3107011
I'm sure the anarchist warlords had a nice and stable society going. If only they could spread their glorious Marxist empire

>NEET virgins try to convince their neighbors to be enslaved by them into a retarded totalitarian system

>>3107074
ideology
ˌʌJdJˈɒlədʒi/
noun
1.
a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.


Furthermore, I already explained as to why Venezuela wasn't socialist anymore.

>>3107067
Are you actually going to pretend that that's never hinted at in any of Marx or Engles' works? Like, let's just set aside all later writers who stated it outright. Have you read The Communist Manifesto? Have you read Das Capital? The first is more explicit than the second but you have to actually take me for either an idiot or someone who actually hasn't read anything related to communism to have the balls to be this intellectually dishonest.

>>3107021
Also, i wanted to add. The notion that the state will wither away under the dictatorship of the proletariat is probably the most naive notion ever conceived.

>>3107100
>Das Capital?

>>3106634
>>3107088
Both you and OP are retarded since you don't understand the basic thesis of "not real communism", which is that communism had nothing to do with any of the 20th century totalitarian regimes

>>3107088
>socialism
>totalitarian

>>3107082
Just ask some people under anarcho-communist states today!

https://youtu.be/0wHGLS9SH8U

>>3107029
Compare Cuba or even socialist-lite Venezuela with regional countries like Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Ecuador, Colombia, etc. Cuba and Venezuela have way higher quality of life, way higher literacy, way lower rates of poverty than crapitalist countries in the region

>>3107110
>green text
nice retort.

>>3107115
>>3107116
>No no we're seriously gonna get that utopia this time just enslave yourself to me so I can kill you eventually for wrongthinking.

>>3107118
Starving is preferable to getting stabbed, yes, but it's harder to stab people when you're starving to death.

>>3107130
>No no, we're gonna seriously try to present an argument this time, just give me another (You), so i can respond with another off-topic assumption

>>3107118
Also lmao at the fact the whenever something gies wrong in a capitalist country it's because of capitalism, however when something goes wrong in any socialist country it's sonething entirely different despite the fact that there are nice capitalist countries and every socialist one across the board is a shithole. Or are all thise shitholes not real socialism?

>>3107150
>Boy I sure want a central planning state because I just have too much freedom.
How to spot a crazed NEET virgin.

>>3107150
>thread full of arguments
>"not an argument"
>apologetic excuses ensue.

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>>3107100
It's you being intellectually dishonest.

Marx and engels never implied morality at any point, rather suggesting the movement of economic systems was based on the shift of power from individuals to groups as a whole, as such from feudalism, to capitalism to communism, and the movement of these was based centrally on self interest of classes. Marx spoke highly of capitalism in that it could rapidly industrialize and improve society, but had limited effectiveness, and that capitalism naturally produces a society in which production is based entirely on the working class, yet they hold no power within it, and as such it was naturally in their self interest to seize the means of production and create a society in which their product of labour is equivalent to their wage. What Marx failed to predict was the creation of the middle class, meaning communism will instead come from post-scarcity, rather than scarcity itself. There's no good or evil, only combinations of interest and power. As marx plainly states, every state exists to maintain dominance of one class over another.

>>3107130
>All socialism is central planning, trust me lol

>>3107163
>>3107165
>communism is - by definition - a classless society
>nah uh this totalitarian regime with ruling elite was definitely communism because the crazy psycho leading it told me so!
you are dumber than nowadays communists

An honest question for all communists:

If commjnism has never been tried then how do you know it'll be better than anything that came before?

>>3107186
>every totalitarian regime was said to be aiming to achieve Communism
>kill millions and brutally oppress the people

>we can kill millions of people because we aren't true Communism yet
And this is where we are in the conversation.

>>3107186
Explain how to achieve communism without utilizing totalitarian techniques

>>3107186
>Capitalism is private owned enterprise for profit.
>But even when the government subsidizes and interferes with normal bussiness it's still capitalism.

>>3107192
We don't. It's capitalists who portray us as utopians.

And communism has been tried.

>>3107198
It's almost as if *Gasp*........ Leninism is shit!

>>3107200
What do you fucking think communism is? A stateless society achieved with a state? Are you high?

>>3107204
It's mode of production. Are you one of those retards who think socialism is when the government does stuff?

>>3107182
post scarcity is physically impossible. Please don't say embarrassing things like that when you're trying to prove a point.

>>3107211
>Leninism
What fucking shitty Communist ideology DIDN'T kill millions?

Why are NEET virgins so obsessed with murderous authoritarian ideologies?

>>3107198
>>3107200
Because its a stupid way of achieving it, thats all. Communism itself is not a bad tought and it triggers me that its associated with totalitarianism which has nothing to do with it.

>>3107218
Nigga it's coming, automation is moving at a rapid rate. We already have enough food to feed the planet, it's just poorly distributed.

>>3107221
Basically every non-leninist communist system?

The socialists of Spain, Ukraine, Rojava, and Burkina faso?

Leninism is the most common because its' the one the USSR would sponsor.

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Communism is a classless, stateless society where workers own the means of production. Such society never existed.

Read New Class by Djilas to get an idea what happened in USSR and Eastern Bloc countries.

>>3106712
>kills millions every time
>t. American who gets his history from Conservapedia

One thing is for sure, because of the 20th century, there's no reason to ever trust a self-professed Communist with the levers of power ever again, regardless of whether any of those nations in fact were Communistic.

>>3107234
>Spain
Red Terror in Spain
>Ukraine
The Anarchists in Ukraine purged kulaks

>>3107118
>inb4 revisionist history graphs with charts saying Batista did nothing wrong and Castro ruined the country

>>3107211
Do you unironically think people will just organize them into a classless society if you took away the state?

>>3107118
what kind of oil reserves do these capitalist countries have

>>3107204
>not real capitalism

>>3107250
Uh huh. MILLIONS.

Let's entertain this anyway.

>Spanish Red terror
Most atrocities were done by looters and thieves, and ones which weren't were not done by the CNT, but other leftist groups. The CNT was the least murderous faction by far.

>The Anarchists in Ukraine purged kulaks
Gonna need a source. Regardless, not millions.

>>3107254
If you need to ask how this happens, you aren't educated on the topic enough to be posting here.

>>3107272
How does it happen?

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>>3106634
>>3107021
I've always enjoyed the "not real communism/socialism" cop out for when leftists politics go tits up. If every single time you attempt X, you end up with Y, does it even matter if X =/= Y?

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>>3106634
Communism s the Linkin Park of political ideologies

Everyone loved it as a teenager, until really listen to the lyrics

Well, according to the rightwing we never had real capitalism either.

Why do rich people act surprised when poor people fight for their own self interest?

Just fucking deal with it, geez.

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>>3107314
We haven't, the difference here being that most of the time capitalism is attempted we end up with prosperous countries. Where as when communism is attempted we create enormous shitshows that eventually collapse, or adopt capitalist components and slowly get better the more capitalist they become. Same deal with socialism, but not nearly as dramatic as communism. Socialism arguable can work but it requires smaller nations populated by people who give a shit about those nations, like Sweden and other nordic counties before the religion of peace influx

>>3107272
In other words you know it's not possible without strict state intervention

>>3107291
So your first misconception is the removal of the state removes the system of authority entirely, rather, it is confederalised and decentralized to an extent which allows authority to be representative and can be removed from power if lacking wide ranging support. This is generally seen to happen by the dissolving of centralized states into 'Communes'. These communes generally have a committee with no particular head, but rather management in different areas.

So, the process of a capitalist state to an anarcho-communist, or mutualist one generally follows this process.

1. Anarchists take contro, of the country. Pretty self explanatory.
2. Authority in regional areas is increased as the central committee relinquishes control to it. Less extreme anarchists generally suggest the central state will continue to function in managing cooperation between communes at a bureaucratic rather than genuinely enforcing level.
3. The nationalized businesses and industries of areas are re managed to distribute power among the workers. This doesn't mean the workers themselves are controlling how the industry functions, but rather that they are receiving the product of their labour for their specific purpose.
4. The local committee will work with the industries to focus production on need rather than profit, as the private control of production is removed. The removal of this need for profit means money lacks real value, and most trading is done through communal negotiation to meet one another's needs than specific interest, with interest instead being to allow the community to develop.

For more info, reading 'Conquest of Bread' lays it out better than I can. Hope this helps.

I mean, didn't Marx state that Communism is supposed to be a stateless society? So every single nation that has claimed to be "communist" is automatically moot?

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>>3106634
I love this one, because it always ends up in a rain of fallacies
>Real communism has never been tried, therefore there's such thing as valid critics against communism
>Capitalism succeeded, therefore the only and the best way
>Anarchism has never been tried, therefore it's a impossible utopian dream
>Socialism has been extensively used and we still having problems, therefore it never helped with a thing

A big, polished version of UR MOM

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>>3106634

I too wish the Russians never went communist.

Which would mean Hitler would totally BTFO a democratic Russian government who couldn't inspire the people to resist.

Then we'd have a proper Europe today.

If WW2 didn't happen we would hate Not Real Communists equally as much as we hate Nazis and be able to mow down crowds of retarded Not Real Communists before they can go on a looting spree and try to expand the state so that the capitalist aspects become shittier.

Everyone seems to be missing the elephant in the room.

If the nobles and wealthy elite of the past didn't maltreat the populace, there would never have been any desire to upset the political and economic systems at all. Communism is besides the point. Rich people should stop being so greedy. Otherwise, if it's not communism it will be something else but poor people will only take so much mistreatment before they revolt.

It's just the nature of things.

>>3107342
>most of the time capitalism is attempted we end up with prosperous countries
lol

>>3107353
Nah the USA would just nuke Germany to pieces.

>>3107367
You underestimate the backstabbing middle class,

>>3107342

You cannot say for sure that China and Russia would be better of today if they went straight from feudalism to capitalism, like for example what happened in Africa...

Both countries continued improving massively under communism.

You cannot just claim without any proof that they would have been better off doing things any other way.

>>3107152
List of Socialist countries:
-USSR 1917-1953
-Warsaw Pact 1945-1953
-PRC 1949-1976
-DPRK 1946-2017
-Cuba 1959-2017

All those countries saw insanely massive growth in industry, healthcare, education, life expectancy, quality of life. They "worked" better than any crapitalist country ever could

>>3107376

Yeah, I see the middle class in the US are a bunch of selfish pricks.

>>3107255
Cuba has approx 124 million barrels of oil

Mexico has 10.3 billion barrels

Despite being blockaded by the most powerful country in the world, Cuba wins by insane margins In every possible comparison with Mexico, which has no blockade and which has 10x the oil.

>>3107342
Most crapitalist countries are in Africa, South Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East. If you had to choose, you would choose a socialist country like Cuba over a crapitalist one like Chad, Bangladesh, Guatemala, Moldova, or Nigeria. Only a tiny percentage of people live in developed imperialist nations, only able to enjoy a high quality of life thanks to the looting and pillage of the third world through IMF banksterism and endless wars of aggression against small countries that threaten no one

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>>3107381
Serbia 1944-2017
Liberalization started in 2000 by God-King Labus.
Halted by Mladja Dinkic in 2006

>>3107367
Except it's not about individuals being greedy or not greedy, it's a systemic problem. Let's say you're a crapitalist somewhere in Bangladesh, you have a big heart and you want to help your workers so you pay them a high wage, except if you do that you will lose competetive advantage and go out of business. It's not the moral qualities of individuals that drives history, but the system which forces (some) good people to act in bad ways out of self-preservation

>>3107327
>Why do rich people act surprised when poor people fight for their own self interest?
This. I don't get how these well-off kids spouting communist bullshit are surprised when poor people reject their tyrannical ideology.

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>>3107381
This level of bait should be ban worthy.

>>3107421

>liberalisation

L.O.L

That is usually code for, "let's sell these government assets to my rich friends for 0.01% of market value".

And btw, your water and electricity bill increased, despite nothing changing besides ownership of the utility.

Oh and garbage management is not longer provided by the local municipality. It's not a private service. You must pay for it. No, that doesn't mean that your taxes will be reduced.

And we are introducing a private insurance market. Yeah, that means you will pay 250% what you previously used to pay for health insurance but now you have the pleasure of filling in tons of paperwork every time you switch jobs and we will be sending you lots of letters and other administrative bullshit from time to time.

What's not to love about liberalization!

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>>3107381
If you are saying so I believe it. Your word is enough to me.

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>>3107461
t. Milosevic cuck or Tito cocksucker

>>3107349
And you literally think people will just allow this to happen? seizing people's businesses and redistributing? What about private property?

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>>3106682
>you don't understand, thousands of children were MEANT to starve to death

>>3107461
Lol no. All of those things are still state owned, and healthcare is 15% of your paycheck.

>>3107439

I don't think that's correct.

Take Venezuela. The rich and corrupt elite were aware of the disgruntled masses for decades. They could have setup a welfare state themselves instead of waiting for Chavez to take over.

They just weren't smart enough.

>>3106717
Every fucking time.

These people have no self-awareness whatsoever.

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>>3106682
One more time, this time it will work, I can feel it!

>>3107490
>>3107477

I don't know anything about Serbia. Just talking in general what happens in the west under the guise of "liberalization".

It's usually just a way to move some profitable state enterprise to the private sector.

>>3107485
Why not? Revolution has happened before. Just of another ideology.

>>3107513
"Communism! Communism! Communism!" goes the refrain. "A million deaths were not enough for Communism!"

>>3107520

>"A million deaths were not enough for Communism!"

Says the champion of capitalism, while his country denies medical care to the poor and let's them die of easily treatable conditions.

>>3107546
>reddit spacing
>thinks I'm a burger
wew

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>>3107546
>there's only two ideologies in the world, if you disagree you are obviously part of the enemies ideology!

You sir are obviously very informed and intellectual. Thanks for your wise input.

>>3107546
>denies
.everybody is an amrerican
Nothing is free in this life, leech faggot. If you work you can afford to pay into and recieve healthcare. If you're an unemployed low IQ shitskin or white trash, you die. The thing is that in communism, even work doesn't guarantee that you won't starve or die because the workers' "soviet" of the medical and food factories has decided to send the food or medicine elsewhere.

>>3107548

My point stands. You cannot really talk about deaths when capitalism has all these, let's call them "inefficiencies", that kill a lot of people unnecessarily.

>>3107567
>if you hate communism you must be a capitalist
Is this what life is like for retarded redditors?

>>3107566

>leech faggot

Says the guy who champions an ideology where some fat cat gets crowned "rich" at birth and never lifts a finger throughout his life while earning millions in the process.

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>>3107567
>considers any country that makes use of the capital a "capitalist" one, besides the obvious mistake
>"It was not communism...it was semi-bio-proto-half-kinda-flawed-socialism.

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>everybody works where they want
>you cannot assert your plans over others by force
>workers decide what to produce
>obviously nobody wants to work as a uranium ore miner, sewer cleaner etc.
>people working 10 minutes per day is ok ("from each according to his ability" is completely arbitrary)
>lack of currency in scarcity means wants don't meet needs
>humans arent idealized supermen so the whole array of vices sets in
How do you coordinate this clusterfuck. Over/Under/Non-production will set in exactly 5 seconds after communism is set up.

>>3107673

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40654453

>>3107746
>Slovak PM Fico threatens boycott of 'rip-off food'
So... what does this have to do with the inner workings of communism?

>>3106735
I don't really care about this conversation but "the subtle art of not giving a fuck" sounds like a book written by a douchebag.

>>3107022
I've heard people on the board claim that, no it wasn't REAL capitalism, real capitalism is free markets with no government intervention, never mind that literally has never been practiced or porposed by anyone with a brain.

>>3106882
All non-meme states that attempted to implement a system which has a dictatorship as a step of their plan became ruthless authoritarian shitholes. Really makes you think.

Btw the og communism as described by Marx is not the only think that IS communism, (no true scotsman) say Maoism and Stallinism are just as legitimate variations and followers of those ideologies will hijack any attempt to implement original marxism.

>>3107514
>I don't know anything about Serbia
>argues and uses Serbia as an example

This is the intelligence of a communist

>>3107797
Right-libertarians love to claim that completely unregulated capitalism (which nonetheless somehow still manages to maintain property rights) would have all the upsides, and none of the problems of capitalism as it exists today. Of course, it's basically wordplay, because they define "problems" to mean specifically any deviation from a free market, but not anything else. So it's the same roundabout rhetoric as saying "Communism is a utopia, so real Communism has never happened" (though that's a different argument from "real Communism has never happened since Communism means workers owning the means of production").

>>3107546
muh lack of free healthcare in a country were everybody is obese is worse than all purges, famines and dictatorship caused by communism

>>3107546
>implement universal healthcare
>the entire third world invades you

You could just shoot yourself instead.

How exactly are resources and production allocated in a Communist society? I get that a key aspect is making the owners and users of the means of production one and the same (so that mere ownership of property does not give one a right to profit from others' labor), but does Communism actually require complete abolition of any kind of market exchange? Totalitarian communism seems to have all production and distribution of goods be decided by government committee, but in anarcho-communism for example, would it be possible for individuals or groups to exchange goods based on mutual consensual agreement, or do they have some other way of deciding who goods are available to? The centralized command economy seems to run afoul of the same problem as industrial capitalism, namely that decisions are being made by those who do not stand to lose from the "wrong" decisions being made.

>>3107353
"Democratic governments can not inspire good morale, it is virtually impossible to motivate people not to get slaughtered by germans."

>>3107860
So you're saying a low standard of living is maintained intentionally in order to discourage illegal immigration? Wouldn't a better policy be to grant healthcare to people if and only if they can show valid proof of being a legal inhabitant of the country?

>>3106634
>>Communism has never been tried
This is kind of right and kind of wrong. Karl Marx outlined the path to communism. The USSR, PRC, Cuba, DPRK weren't true communism. Put simply Marx imagined a dictatorship of the proletariat phase between a capitalist society and eventual communism. The USSR and the rest of the communist states weren't communist, they were dictatorships of the proletariat.

Now is the fact that every time communism is attempted it either falls back into capitalism or remains a tyrannical dictatorship of the proletariat damning to communism? Mostly yes.

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>>3107876
>if they show valid proof of being a legal inhabitant of the country
That would be racist.

>>3106644
I'm not sure if communism inevitable per se but good luck keeping liberal capitalism up and running for the rest of human history.

Insisting on a system based on unlimited growth in a system with finite resources will cause us to run into some obstacles.

>>3107889
/thread

>>3107889
>>3107899
Then prices will rise in tandem with the losing of resources discouraging people from consuming more.
Central planning is what makes you go full speed off the cliff and kill millions.

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Communism will only be possible when robots produce all essential goods.

>ywn live in a post-scarcity society, where everyone is free to pursue whatever intellectual goals
>ywn have freedom from government interference AND from basic material needs

>>3107889
Markets always find a way you one brain cell retad

This is why capitalism has never failed but communism failed every single time

>>3107888
It wouldn't be racist if it was trivially easy for all people, regardless of race and socio-economic status, to obtain such documentation, provided they were indeed legal inhabitants.

>>3107906
Not all of us are advocates of central planning, but why are you so sure it will cause mass death?

Negligent democide in the Soviet Union and Communist China occurred due to specific human errors rather than the system itself.

>>3107931
Nope you're a racist now, go back to /pol/.

You have to abolish welfare to discourage the entire third world invading you, because the people who want the third world to invade, will fuck you, like they're doing right now. It is literally racist to ask for ID if someone comes from a demographic the elites and leftists want to import.

>>3107906
But there's a certain point when "being discouraged from consuming more" just isn't a viable solution. I mean eventually, shortages of food, shelter, and medicine will result in them being unavailable to large numbers of people, resulting in mass deaths - you know, the very thing you criticize communism for.

>>3107930
>capitalism has never failed
It has though. Many times. However, a failing capitalist system is more frequently replaced by "real capitalism this time, we promise" than by Communism.

>>3107942
That was the result of bureaucrats fearing under their central planning state which every socialist movement ends up creating, the people on the ground doing the art know it better than the desk jockey 500 miles away.

>>3107954
Do you even realize how long it would take to get to that point, the market would feel it and change the prices immediately. I don't know why you want central planning so much because it's the equivalent of reducing the number of nerve endings you have in order to feel your surroundings.

>>3107946
No, the reason why voter ID laws and so on are considered "racist" is that the proposed implementations do not make any guarantee that ID will be easily available to all groups of citizens. So it creates an opportunity to basically prevent certain groups from voting, or at least making it more difficult. The same issue came up with "literacy" tests for voting in American South, because there were no federal standards for how literacy tests were to be scored, so in practice they were just used as an excuse to forbid black people from voting, even those black people who did better on the tests than white people that were allowed to vote.

>>3107889

Thinking that from now till the end of time, nobody will ever come up with a better system is just retarded.

So we made progress in politics and economics till the 1970s and then everything just halted?

>>3106634

Considering this is politics, shouldn't the janitor move this to /pol/?

>>3107964
>Do you even realize how long it would take to get to that point, the market would feel it and change the prices immediately.
No, I'm talking about an actual shortage, not a meme "prices too high" shortage. Lowering the prices wouldn't fix things, because there simply isn't enough being produced. It would actually WORSEN the shortage, since lower prices = less incentive to produce = less production.

>>3107969
>the proposed implementations do not make any guarantee that ID will be easily available to all groups of citizens. So it creates an opportunity to basically prevent certain groups from voting, or at least making it more difficult
Oh you're really going into this Democrat talking point, give me the exact details on how this happens because black people aren't as poor and retarded as you think they are.

>>3107972
Communism arguably falls under humanities. /pol/ seems to be more focused on the current events side of things, while these threads are basically more the philosophical side of things. Might be better if we had some kind of dedicated board for economics.

>>3107978
I don't know how but I think you don't understand why a price would lower in the first place.

>>3107982
I can't give you any exact details, because the problem with the proposal is the LACK of details. They don't really specify any kind of standards for how states must implement voter ID, which means the people in charge of running elections are given a free hand to screw over the demographic groups that they don't want to vote.

>>3107990
That's the whole point. Lowering prices is not the correct response to a shortage.

>>3107996
>how states must implement voter ID
You go to the DMV, you register to vote, and then you vote.

>>3108002
Why would they lower a price on a thing they're running out of and why would it be better for the state to start exhausting it until a mob of people run into a solid wall and realize there's none left?

>>3108004
You do know that the DMV is infamous for ridiculously long lines, right? And keep in mind the opportunity cost of waiting in line like that. Not really something people can afford when they're living hand to mouth.

>>3108013
The state can plan for the long term, something that markets are hilariously bad at.

>>3108015
Why would you not register to vote when you're getting your photo ID and license? You literally have to just say "Yes." and push three buttons and you can vote.

>>3108015
>le poor people have no free time meme
It takes like an hour or two at most to register. The problem is most of these welfare queens aren't motivated or informed enough to take that time. I mean voting usually requires sitting in a long line. Why is this so different?

>>3108019
>the state can plan for the long term unlike the markets
You're hilariously wrong, the people handling the resource know what it is and don't require a middle man running paperwork or allocating tax money to bail out big banks.

>>3108037
A lot of people in the city don't get drivers licenses, especially if they're poor. And does the proposal actually require that obtaining voter ID be as simple as "saying yes and pushing three buttons?"

>>3108040
>It takes like an hour or two at most to register.
On top of travel time. And even 2 hours seems optimistic.

> I mean voting usually requires sitting in a long line. Why is this so different?
There's usually a lot more voting places than DMVs. It tends not to be nearly as crowded and slow in my experience.

>>3108050
> the people handling the resource know what it is
Except they tend to literally not care about the resource. Capitalism explicitly assumes that people are motivated primarily by profit. The problems arise when you can make profits now, at the expense of causing problems for other people in the future.

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>ITT liberals get BTFO by leftists
Beautiful

>>3108050
Oh and btw, banks wouldn't need to be bailed out if they were subject to proper regulations in the first place. The bank bailouts were not in any way "moral", but were neccessary because the banks gambled with their customers' money, and lost, but the banks weren't going to pay the price - it would either be the customers or the state that would end up paying. If the banks were regulated, so that they couldn't gamble without paying the price, the whole situation would never have happened in the first place.

>>3108067
>they tend to literally not care about the resource
>when their entire life hinges on the handling of it
Time to go get sunlight.

>>3107930
If capitalism was working we wouldn't need food stamps to stop the working class from starving to death

>>3108079
No, their life hinges on profit. They can always just buy what they need in the short term, and by the time their decisions result in problems, it will be somebody else's problem.

>liberals complain about keeping /pol/ on /pol/
>Liberals post threads like this b8
Make up your minds.

>>3108096
>liberals are one person
>threads that I disagree with are bait
"Keep /pol/ in /pol/" doesn't mean no tolerance of right-wing opinions. It means don't post unless you're willing to conduct yourself like an adult.

>>3108088
Next time don't choke the market to favor the multinational conglomerates.

>>3108093
>they don't care about the resource
>yet their life hinges on the profit (demand for the resource)
Grow a weed farm or something.

>>3108061
The last time I went the DMV it took me 30 minutes. It usually take 2 hours on average though. But it's still not the impossible task you make it out to be. The real problem here is the lack of a National ID. If we had a National ID this wouldn't be an issue. But the fact that we don't means voter ID laws benefit Republicans and a lack of these laws benefits Democrats. This isn't as simple as "Repulicans are racist".

>>3108068
Liberal capitalism is an anachronism. The ruling class thought the fall of the USSR and defeat of Western labor unions could bring us back to the economic standards of the early 20th century, so they dusted all the old liberal economic ideals that made the Gilded Age possible.

Trump and Bernie and Corbyn and Le Pen and Melenchon and radical Islam and the YPG and Hezbollah and Putin and the Bolivarian revolution and Xi Jinping have called their bluff.

>>3108115
And "Grow a weed farm" isn't an insult, I'm saying actually do it. I never gave as much of a shit about mushrooms as when I was trying to sell them. The resource you handle is your fucking artform.
Central planning would be some cunt who doesn't understand what I do telling me what to do.
Please tell me to worship the state more.

>>3108172
So then you're saying that the theory on which capitalism is based is false.

>>3108172
>The resource you handle is your fucking artform.
>Central planning would be some cunt who doesn't understand what I do telling me what to do.
Which is why leftists oppose private ownership of the means of production. Private ownership of the means of production allows someone who contributes little or no labor themselves to both decide how the means of production are used, and to receive the majority of the profits from the use of those means of production. Not really an issue with mom & pop businesses and cottage industries, but Marx was reacting mainly to the large-scale industrial capitalism that was then arising in Europe.

>>3108209
>>3108229
Like I said stop choking the market and see what happens, the little man is who gets crushed by regulations while the corporations can laugh it off. I've actually started theorizing that the Left just want to turn executives into the new economic directors.
The boss used to be the guy who would get the idea and get the funds and the skilled labor is just the extra pair of hands to make it happen.

>>3106634
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

>>3108241
>Like I said stop choking the market and see what happens
And that's how we ended with the financial crisis. Banks gambling with their customers' money and expecting the customers to pay for it. And a lot of our environmental problems too, the factory owners who decide whether to pollute or not are not the ones who will end up paying for the consequences. I'm not saying we should regulate markets just for the sake of it, but markets are rather poor at dealing with externalities and delayed consequences, and the very problem of "central planning" affects large corporations just as much as it does totalitarian Communism.

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>>3106735
>Phone screenshot
>Reddit books recommended
Absolutely disgusting.

>>3108270
Remember when I said "Central planning would be some cunt who doesn't understand what I do telling me what to do." and you both just deflected, you want another system that does the same thing.
And those banks? Those banks would've been destroyed for their fuck up but Obama bailed them out, is that the government handling market "externalities"? Everything is the market.
The Depression itself was started because the government would not stop fucking with the money supply, interest rates, taxes, and regulations.

Seriously deal drugs, that's actually a pretty free market the cost just inflates because of the added risk of it's legality. That's a good way to get your foot in on the free market.

>>3108295
>Remember when I said "Central planning would be some cunt who doesn't understand what I do telling me what to do." and you both just deflected, you want another system that does the same thing

I don't want central planning by the state though. The main things that I think would constitute an improvement over an unregulated free market are:

1) Regulations that force industries to pay for negative externalities, and be compensated for positive externalities, that they generate.

2) Have the means of production at a given place of work be collectively owned and managed by the workers. They could still voluntarily appoint someone as manager, but there wouldn't be a notion that anyone is entitled to profit from means of production that they own, if they themselves do not contribute some form of labor.

> Those banks would've been destroyed for their fuck up but Obama bailed them out, is that the government handling market "externalities"?
That was a case where we had to choose the lesser of two evils. The bail out wasn't "good", but the consequences of allowing the banks to fail would be worse. I'm all for jailing the people that ran the banks into the ground and appointing new management though. And ideally it would have been best to not allow banks to become so powerful that their screwup could present such a risk to the economy, but what's done is done. It was too late to fix that even before the economic crisis.

>The Depression itself was started because the government would not stop fucking with the money supply, interest rates, taxes, and regulations.
The 20s were known for minimal regulation, maybe once it started to fall the government did try to take some corrective action, but honestly, there's really no chance that the stock market could have kept going on forever. Sooner or later it would have run out of steam, that's just how the economic cycle works.

>>3107351
Bingo

>>3106634
>x wasn't real y
>real y has never been tried
The argument of an idiot, this goes for both sides. The USSR failed because they made the wrong choice at several critical junctures in their development, eventually causing a collapse of the system, all of which is clearly documented and understandable for people who actually bother to research it. To argue that it was doomed to failure from the outset is pure stupidity.

>>3107915
But what if your Goals include fucking over other People? Individual humanis will still be assholes and hate each other. Mightas well wait for matrix style virtual reality with no possibility to harm other people.

>>3107234
>We can magically make everything unlimited with Robots
Okay.

>>3106634
I wenr to r/communism just to watch real people say this stuff

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>>3106644

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>>3107915
This is your utopia comrade

>>3112349

don't buy the communist lie

socialism is a shared serfdom

>>3112370
ikr, this projetion >>3112349 is an actually lefty meme.

>>3108115
>Next time don't choke the market to favor the multinational conglomerates.
>not real capitalism!!!1!

>>3106964
>It underwent mass privatization after Chavez' death

False, they have being expropriating literally everything, from small to big companies because of the meme economic war. Ironically, once the government, specifically the army, takes control of said business everything goes even faster to hell.

> and the current economic situation was caused by the US and UK pushing down oil value, which is the export Venezuela's naturally dependent on.

So what you are saying is that the whole world should pay huge prices for oil to sustain Venezuela? Get the fuck out

>In fact, it had some of the best living standards during the Chavez era.

Not really, but there was a lot of social investment.

>>3114122
>Not really, but there was a lot of social investment.
Look up the Bolivarian Missions.

>>3112370
Capitalism offer a job to people of mine nation - work at 4 professions same time at a workplace and you will get 1 wage. So capitalism also isn't good too.

>>3114130
You mean, the Chavez plan of giving a bunch of illiterate peasants millions of dollars to develop social programs who instead of investing said money stole it and every year Chavez had to go back and ask what the fuck happened and give more money?

>b-b-but my poor peasants will do what's best

I'm Venezuelan, btw, you cuck boi

>>3107518
>people will willingly give up all their assets including their property
Are you high?

>>3107221
The Vietnamese system didn't kill millions.

>>3106882
Communism has been tried in West Bengal. It cannibalised its agriculture and destroyed all prosperity trends for decades

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>>3114170
This

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>>3107268
>which weren't were not done by the CNT, but other leftist groups.

But, hey don't even hide their crimes

>>3114170
Hope Maduro puts this gusano porky in a Gulag

>>3114331
Jokes on you! I went to University in Costa Rica back in 2008 and was able to bring my family after a couple of years. We all live here now.

>>3112349
Wow, those leftypols guys are whack. There's no inequality in the world today, no environmental destruction, no unjistified hierarchy, no wars, no imperialism, no poverty, no crisis. Democracy isn't fake and bought by the wealthy but 100% real.

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>>3114331
The "Gulags" are full already

>>3107221
>muh grazillions
If you look up the sources behind the claims that Stalin and Mao killed hundreds of millions, you'll find that they are completely fraudulent, based entirely on baseless "estimates" by psuedo-"historians" like MI6 agent Robert Conquest. No matter how much you peddle Deep State fake news, it won't change the fact that Communism has worked literally every time it was tried, lifting millions of people out of poverty, illiteracy, and feudal barbarism.

Meanwhile, every time capitalism has been tried, it has led to complete disaster and the deaths of literally hundreds of millions. WW1, WW2, climate change, regime change in Libya, Syria, Iraq, etc, Great Depression, Great Recession, etc.

>>3114257
More fake news. Bengal and Kerala, the two areas controlled by Communists for decades, have way higher rates of literacy, way lower rates of poverty, way more developed infastructure, and way better quality of life than the regions of India run by BJP or Congress.

>>3107930
>capitalism has never failed
What would you call WW1, the time when crapitalists sent millions of young men to butcher each other for profit, other than a total failure of capitalism? Thanks to crapitalism, an entire generation was wiped out and Western civilization was permanently traumatized, leading to the rise of both fascism and Communism.

Crapitalism is failing right now in the US. There is basically a Cold Civil War inside America between Trump and the CIA which escalates daily, with an endgame that is totally unpredictable.

>>3107889
>liberal capitalism will end
>that makes Marx right

This is what communists actually believe.

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>>3114418
>>3114468
You lefties are the champions of moving the goal post and Whataboutism, seriously you complain about the merciless capitalism and the benefits of comunism but when the history show you the economic mistakes, the unfreedom and deaths you act like a stormwhiny and say this is fake news or the classic "not true communism" every time.

>>3112349
What's the problem here?

>>3107971
This is what capitalists literally believe

>>3114418
Only kerala, which isn't a true communist government. Bengal is not top-performing in any metric in india aside from low birth rates, and it has only gotten better after communism.

You are retarded, your beliefs are anti-human, and I gloat how you edgy numale fuckers will always be social outcastes for holding onto the single most destructive religion of all human history

>>3114893
>it's another "false dichotomy of capitalism vs communism " episode

>>3114694
>economic mistakes, the unfreedom and deaths
Literally MI6-CIA propaganda, literally fake news. Literally zero documentary or archival evidence to support your claims.

>>3115187
>MuH, overpower CIA ninja porkies destroy my flawless commie paradise.