>store's out of potato >i guess we'll starve

victims of capitalism

they had plenty of available food, it was just exported under armed guard.

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>>3087675
How? Explain your reasoning.
I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this "people starve under capitalism" meme

>>3087683
Their food was expropriated by the state so that it could be sold for profit.

>>3087691
that kinda sounds like state capitalism

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>>3087702
>state capitalism
that kinda sounds like socialism

I've heard they could have just fished, they're on an island for pete's sake!

>>3087683
>I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this "people starve under capitalism" meme
I mean, it does happen. Is denying objective fact really the hill you want to die on?

>>3087737
Only if the state was extensively democratic. Socialism requires public ownership of the means of production.

>>3087683

Food prices were higher outside of Ireland even during famine conditions, therefore rendering it profitable to sell the food abroad. Remember that absentee landlords owned most of the land, they didn't even reside in Ireland, but in London, and had no reason to cancel their lucrative export contracts just because catholics starved. The food was sent to England, and the money was sent to England, so the Irish received nothing.

Under free market doctrine, a famine is eventually averted when prices rise enough to incentivize the import of additional foodstuffs. This assumes that the population has purchasing power to give. An impoverished populace cannot create enough demand to pull in supply. Potatoes formed a staple crop simply because they were so worthless as an export that it was the only crop that the limited purchasing power of the Irish peasants was able to afford. At any level of supply and demand the English consumer could always outbid the Irish consumer. The Irish Holocaust was an entirely capitalist phenomenon.

>>3088036

>holocaust
>no fire involved

>>3087991
>Socialism requires public ownership of the means of production.
I've never had someone satisfyingly define what the hell that means.

>>3087691
The Bolsheviks did the EXACT same thing though

Hey seamus how about we try to get some sort of food from all these rivers and seas?

Away to feck yer daft wee shite!

tldr. Irish are no better than niggers.

>>3089566
>https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b407g/why_did_the_irish_not_think_of_fishing_during_the/
Google it you fucking retard.

>>3089575
Butthurt plastic paddy detected.
Also
>reddit

>>3089566

>people who have been lifelong farmers are supposed to become professional sailors and fishermen overnight

>>3089566
>Patrick wants to be a hardcore fisherman but the British won't let him

>>3089577
>source is bad becuz
The top answer is a quote from a book, i'm almost ceratin you didn;'t read it so here it is:
"A large part of the Irish coast, in the south-west, west and north-west is perilous: there are cliffs, rocks, treacherous currents, sudden squalls and above all the Atlantic swell surging form America across thousands of miles of ocean. By the nineteenth centruy timber was short in Ireland; in the west, practically speaking, there was none, and fishing-boats were small, the largest being 12-15 tons. The national boat of Ireland is the 'curragh', a frail craft, often of considerable length, made of wicker work covered originally with stretched hides and latterly with tarred canvas. The curragh rides easily over the great Atlantic swells, is fast, and with four oarsmen can cover suprising distances. The Curragh was not suitable for the use of nets in deep-sea fishing, and according to an expert writing at the time the fish off the west coast of Ireland lay many miles out at sea in forty fathoms of water. A vessel of at least fifty tons was needed, capable of going out for several days, laden with nets, to face 'the frightful swell of the Atlantic'."

Also what the fuck is a plastic Paddy?

>>3089586
Humans have been fishing for millenia. Some species are too dumb to figure it out.

>>3089603
Yes, humans with salt, adequete coastlines, efffective ships with storage cpacities large enough to make fishing worth it, money to pay for said ships and salt have tamed the sea, the Irish had none of these things, english inheritance laws hoisted on catholics ensured the poverty of the average irishmen as farms were divided more and more, meaning that hyper efficient crops had to be planted, Potatoes fit the bill, so the Irish began to plant potatoes, so when a potato targetihng disease swept through Ireland they weren't able to produce enough food, this is really not that difficult.

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>>3089593
>>3089593
Yet the people of the west coast of Scotland, faroe isles and Iceland coped with the same conditions.

>>3089613
Ah so it's all "dem fooken brits" fault.

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>Famine happens
>Brits do nothing
>Millions of Irish leave Ireland and CELT the United States
>USA is becoming more and more Catholic by the year
*nglos never learn

>>3089617

When the British take away your boats, nets, docks, processing sites and storage facilities, yeah, kinda?

>>3089603

>people with access to other food supplies were able to become proficient at it over many years, so why didn't people starving to death master it instantly?

>>3089621
USA is becoming Catholic because of Mexicans not the people with 1/8th Irish ancestry

>>3089126
Like a worker cooperative (there are a lot of examples of this), the people who work own the means of production and make the decisions democratically.

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>>3089635
Ted Kennedy helped make it popular.

>>3089616
Iceland was heavily isolated from the arrival of Potato Blight, in addition they wern't overseen by a government that tried to deny them rights, and intentionally preventing Icelanders from succeeding.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Laws_that_restricted_the_rights_of_Irish_Catholics

>>3089617
I'm English, the famine was absolutely our fault, the Respone made was initially fine, but then the economic views of those in charge of distributing aid got in the way of helping for the frist 2 years of the famine, in addition, the English made no attempts to curtail people exporting food from ireland during the famine, something that would've increased the irish food supply.

>>3087750
...the fisheries of Ireland, were undeveloped, and in Galway and Mayo the herring fishermen were too poor to buy salt with which to preserve a catch.
... A large part of the Irish coast, in the south-west, west and north-west is perilous: there are cliffs, rocks, treacherous currents, sudden squalls and above all the Atlantic swell surging form America across thousands of miles of ocean. By the nineteenth centruy timber was short in Ireland; in the west, practically speaking, there was none, and fishing-boats were small, the largest being 12-15 tons. The national boat of Ireland is the 'curragh', a frail craft, often of considerable length, made of wicker work covered originally with stretched hides and latterly with tarred canvas. The curragh rides easily over the great Atlantic swells, is fast, and with four oarsmen can cover suprising distances. The Curragh was not suitable for the use of nets in deep-sea fishing, and according to an expert writing at the time the fish off the west coast of Ireland lay many miles out at sea in forty fathoms of water. A vessel of at least fifty tons was needed, capable of going out for several days, laden with nets, to face 'the frightful swell of the Atlantic'. If a gale blew from the east the nearest port of refuge was Hailfax, in Nova Scotia. The curraghs and small fishing-boats of the Irish were 'powerless in these circumstances'; and an inspector, reporting from Skibbereen, wrote that the failure of Irish fisheries was due to the want of boats suitable for deep-sea fishing, 'though this coast and the coast of Kerry about with the fines fish in the work' another report commented that the courage and skill of Irish fishermen were remarkable; 'the native fishermen' were 'out in thier frail curraghs whenever an opportunity offers, and in weather when nobody else could think of venturing themselves in such a craft'. ...but the heavy swell off the west and south-west made deep-sea fishing in curraghs impossible.

>>3089577
Not an argument

>>3089616
> the faroe islands
Similar to Iceland, the Faroese were isoalted from the Potato blight, in addition, the Faroese are protestants, Catholiscism was one of the reasons the irish were treated so poorly, the Faroese are also a very minor portion of Great Britain, the Faroese aren't, and never have been, a signficant group in Britain.

>>3087691
dude thats literally Mao's communism

>>3089616
>scotland
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine
Fucking lol, haven't learned to google shit yet? The English response to the scottish famine (That scotland needed to shed some population, so in addition to economic aid many were shipped to the future dominions) was far more intelligent and kind compared to the treatment of the Irish.

>>3089625
I find it quite hard to believe that the British literally took away their fishing boats

>>3089613
I dont see how they couldnt chop a few trees (that grow for free) get some ships out on the water a fish.

To let something like a lack of money have you starve to death just seems ridiculous when food was around before money.

>>3089677

How so? It's no more difficult than kicking someone out of their house is it?

>>3089678

>building boats capable of survival in the Atlantic is just a matter of chopping some trees

>>3089678
Ireland is to this day one of the most deforested countries in the world. There were no trees to make boats out of.

>>3089683
Why the fuck would they do that, like why, for what purpose, ever?

>>3089687
Not him but I want some evidence that they at least attempted to increase fishing around the coast. Or started hunting more, hell even start eating seagulls and pigeons.

I mean the reason the Chinese like all sorts of weird as fuck food is because they got into it as a result of so many famines, but not Ireland? Why don't the Irish eat dog and insects?

Muh 8 gorillion

>>3089678
Because in order to make a ship capable of surviving the really rocky, windy coasts of ireland you need proper shipbuilding, in a land of very poor people, shipbuilders and other professions that require large ammounts of payment simply don't come, because they could be paid more for their skills anywhere else, with the basic shipbuilding the irish knew, they tried to make fishing boats, their hulls were too small, and they lacked adequete netting to make it worthwhile, and because salt was still valuable, and the irish had no money, they would have to create their own salt to preserve their catches, Ireland's coast is also terrible for making salt, and boiling water would require so much fuel as to be worthless, in addition english policies that prevented irishmen from "obtaining education" supressed the development of the local irish economy to allow for shipbuilders and saltmakers to exist.

>>3089691
Takes a single tree to make a canoe, and a few trees to make a boat. Both are capable of fishing with a net in shallow waters

>>3089687
There are fish in shallow waters

>>3089677
It's all the Brits fault dont you know.

>>3089697

>why would they do that?

To make money and to show them who's in charge?

>>3089676
>Wiki

>>3089701
What did England do to help the Irish during this time?

>>3089701
>Muh ebul Brits.

>>3089703
>Takes a single tree to make a canoe, and a few trees to make a boat
To put things in perspective, I live in Ireland, and the nearest forest to me is 60 miles away, and it was only planted in the 1970s.

>>3089729
You don't need a boat to catch fish.

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>>3089742
alright cool dude I'll just cast a net off the legendarily welcoming Irish coast

>>3089713
Well initially, some aid in the form of food was sent secretly, however this food required processing which wasn't around in reland, the prevailing economic opinion of the relavant British players at the time (pro free market) meant that many were hesitant to give as they believed the market would solve the problem itself, however due to the value of selling to British consumers, who had money, in favour of Irish consumers, who had no money (that they were now losing due to the source of their wealth, crops, being wiped out), meaning that produce that the Irish could've used to mitigate the damage of the famine were shipped off, after it was claer the free market attitude to the famine was a failure, a new strategy was adopted, wherein aid would be given if irish farmers gave their land up to landlords, these mass evictions pushed many irish to take their Aid for giving up their farms and emigrate to newer shores, explaining things like the early arrival of the Irish into America.

>>3089708
How does ruining industry in a colony make you money?

>>3089722
>deny people from getting an education, participating in politics, or living near cities
>push policies that incetivise the planting of a single crop
>once famine arrives do nothing for 2 years due to retarded economic views
>then decide to only give out aid to those with no land, forcing farmers to give up the only source of their wealth
No but the British were the good guys.

I'm English, the famine is a fucking stain in our history that should never have happened.

>>3089742
t.never fished in the ocean.

>>3089593
>Also what the fuck is a plastic Paddy?
Someone with vague Irish roots who latches on to a stereotypical Irish identity. Think: an American with an Irish great-great-grandmother who yearns for returing to the Emerald Isle, sends their kids to Irish dancing, goes way overboard on St Patrick's Day, supports somewhat the IRA whilst having no understanding of The Troubles, and so on.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy

>>3089790
Well, both my grandparents were Irish, but i don't identify as an Irishman at all, i just don't like it when someone lauds their ignorance as some kind of great truth.

>>3089768

It doesn't in the long term, but it makes you a big stack of cash when you're an absentee landlord who wants to make as much money as possible without caring how badly you fuck your tenants over.

>>3089771
Cuck.

>>3089907
> Implying accepting that your country commited atrocities in the past is a cuck thing to do
I really cannot stand this chauvinistic nationalism, try to be at least a bit objective, or fuck off back to >>>/pol/

>>3089907
No suprise that a "TREW PATRIOT" wouldn't use a proper English insult, you fucking twat.

>>3089269
So?

>>3089950
Potato blight wasn't an atrocity.

>>3087675
British Imperialism*

>>3089988
Creating the climate in which potato blight would ravage a country, and then refusing to aid your own countrymen, and then effectively robbing them of their property in order to get any aid was though.

>>3090053
Cuck.

>>3090087
Yeah, protecting the people of the British Isles, what a cucked thing to do, the better thing to do is to starve your country men, deny them education, deny them basic rights, and allow them to die en masse, and bolster the economies of other states, great plan you fucking disphit.

>>3087737
Nah, just a state which emphasizes property rights over human rights.

>>3090153
>the suddenness and scale of the disaster
>religiously motivated economic repression
>corn laws
>a population that had almost doubled since the turn of the century and hasn't been matched 170 years later
>overdependence on a single strain of crop
What do these have to do with property rights? 2 would have been solved overnight had the English respected Irish property rights.

>>3089713
Work programs.
Victorians didn't believe in charity, but were content to pay for work, even if it was pointless. As a result, you will see many zig zagging cobbled roads to nowhere in the west, up mountains and through bogs that just end at some point.

The Quakers set up free soup kitchens

>>3089907
Back to lleddit

>>3087675
>capitalism
more like mercantilism with a little bit of feudalism thrown in.

>>3087991
and public ownership can be the State, and the State can be ruled by a dictator/monarch.

Why are white people so non-adaptable!
Hope earth comes to a crisis and they're all wiped out.

A race that considers refugees a threat.

>>3090739
At least put bait on the hook

>>3089603
Everything is so easy in my mind when I type it too.

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>>3089678
>

>>3089703
>B-but there ARE enough fish in the shallow waters to feed half the country!
What a fucking retard you are.

Don't know why anglo shitposters are still butthurt with us. We're not that bad.

>>3090257
>What do these have to do with property rights? 2 would have been solved overnight had the English respected Irish property rights.
You're protecting the property rights of absentee land-barons who live in London and have an active and on-going lobbying effort with the government, who keeps policies in place whose incidental effect is promoting the planting of cash crops rather than food crops.

The potato blight caused most of the Irish farms to declare bankruptcy and render huge numbers of Irish farms foreclosed on. This was seen as "The Lord's economy", punishing the sinful and rewarding the righteous, so there wasn't anything to protect, except for the remaining farms whose landlords saw the price of potatoes skyrocket on the international market, and were far more eager to sell them in the name of making a profit than distributing them to starving, penniless Irish.

>>3089709
>deeehhhh source is bad bcuz
Please explain why the source is a bad source, I'm not writing a paper, i'm writing a counterargument against someone on 4chan, more casual soruces should be accepted.

>>3089126
Workers of the factory or whatever gets to decide what they make, how they make it, how long they work and how much wages they bring home, what price to sell the product, safety policies, etc etc

>>3087683

>No one dies under capitalism.

>Congo Free State

Inb4 "muh 13 gorrilian"

Even if you low ball, they still killed millions for "muh trade."

>>3091135
>mercantilism
>capitalism

>>3087683
>8 million people starve to death every year
>we produce more than enough food to feed everyone
>they don't get the food because they lack the CAPITAL to obtain the food

simple calculus

>>3091157
You are confusing money with capital, which is just downright retarded.

>>3091185
not an argument

>>3091150

>Mercantilism

>1890s

>International export company with stockholders around the world

Inb4 more no true Scotsmans

>>3091185
Pedantic at best. Capital usually comes in the form of money

>>3091221
The vast majority of the world's capital is not money.

>>3091221
>>3091225
For example, real estate in the form of land and durable buildings is capital. NYC alone is valued at more than $1 trillion, or about as much money that exists in American dollars right now.

>>3091221

No it doesn't. It can usually be BOUGHT with money, but money just represents value, it has none inherently.

If you're a farmer, owning a tractor is part of your capital. If you're a factory owner, your factory is part of your capital, as are your employees. Even your average person generally has more money in their possessions (house, car, etc) than their bank account. The reason people invest money in things rather than throwing them in a bank is because it actually has value besides being a store for it.

>>3091225
>>3091242
>>3091267
That is why i said 'usually' comes in the form of money. Especially in this world dominated in fiance industry where money can easily translate into stocks, options and other things

>>3091291
Except capital is almost never money or, if using the term strictly, is conceptually distinct from money.

>>3091291
A stock represents your part ownership of an entity, which probably owns some capital. Stock is not capital.

>>3091150
Capitalism is the exchange of goods an service for currency, mercantilism is economic policy designed to ensure that the state makes more money than it loses, they're not opposites at all, you're thinking of the free market, you fucking dolt.

>>3091309
>>3091315
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capital.asp
Again needlessly pedantic. When money can easily be used to acquire capital, there is no need to nitpick that poster >>3091157statement

>>3091323
>Capitalism is the exchange of goods an service for currency
>Not an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state
wew lad

Capital doesn't have a definition.

It depends on context. For an individual, you're normally talking about net liquid assets and lines of credit if you're talking about capital. E.g. "how much capital do you need to open a restaurant?"

Capital has a very specific meaning in government finance. It's always legally defined by state law, and possibly county or city ordinance. It's generally plant or equipment with a useful life on many years. In general terms, it's basically "shit you issue bonds for." Same in the corporate world.

Graduate level econ you talk about stocks and flows, not capital as much.

Everyone on 4chan who took econ101 thinks they are a fucking expert tho.

T. Taught econ at Duke/ran a billion dollar federal and municipal budget

>>3090087
Come back when you learn another word.

>>3091342
>Again needlessly pedantic. When money can easily be used to acquire capital, there is no need to nitpick that poster >>3091157statement
Money can be easily used to acquire...anything. It can be easily used to acquire a hamburger. Does that mean money is a hamburger? No. Money is just a place holder and exchange medium for things of value. Money is not interchangeable with capital any more than it is interchangeable with billions of other things it can be exchanged for.

>>3091411
>Capital doesn't have a definition.
Actually it has a definition. You just don't know what it is, or you think it means something totally different from how it is used in economics/ history/ political theory/ political economy or any number of fields where the word belongs.

>>3087679
This
The Brits literally starved them to death

>>3087750
>>3089566
Brits fished their waters dry

>>3090041
imperialism and capitalism are complementary

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>>3089121
it can be considered a holocaust according to the definition, but yes you're right it's not the most precise word to use

>>3091157
What's that other system that facilitates the production of enough food to feed literally everyone that always manages to fail to do so?

>>3089639
>>3091127
As a worker, would I be required to be paid 1 million dollars per burger flipped if I so desired?

>>3089639
How do the workers decide what's the most efficient pay to take for the company to thrive and ensure their continued employment?

>>3092335
>that always manages to fail to do so?
this is simply retarded. I'm not even communist or socialist but while millions did die in poorly executed schemes like collectivization or the great leap fowards, it's a fact that the vast majority under the communist regimes never starved, especially if we're talking about the urban areas, which chinese and russian communists always made sure had enough food.

>>3092348
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-1417691.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuela-is-starving-1493995317

>>3092348
>chinese and russian communists always made sure had enough food.

By sheer force of will, I'm sure.
COMMUNE HARDER PEOPLE!
>we're running out of food
YOU GUYS, COME WITH ME
>*fires bullets into capitalism*
>*redistributes capitalist food*
GLORIOUS COMMUNISM PROVIDES

>>3092366
You fucking idiot. Take off your ideological glasses and look at things as they were. All I am trying to get through to your underdeveloped brainlet is that while communist regimes were very imperfect, but they still kept people fed except when they carried out poorly thought out ideological schemes.

>>3092356
yes, the fact is though that china and russia, while inefficient, possessed the natural resources to keep their populations adequately fed while cuba and venezuela lack those means, the latter being especially retarded who's perverse incentives decimated their otherwise decent agricultural capacity (which also happened in china and russia to an extent, but there was more room for error because, again, they had a shit ton of land at their disposal.

>>3092347
Gee it's almost as if you need an administration whose task is to tend to administration duties.

The essential flaw to gommunism.

>>3092376
>this thing worked except when it didn't
What a brilliant conclusion, anon.

what did the irish eat before potatoes were brought to europe?

>>3092343
If every other worker agreed to, yes. But everyone would earn about the same or more, which would lead to shocking and sudden hyperinflation and by the time you go full Zimbabwe circa 10 years ago and a loaf of bread costs ten thousand dollars you'll probably just redenominate the currency, and also destroy everyone's life savings in the progress. Which is why someone would probably object to it.

>>3092565
brainlet confirmed. your argument was to quote:
>What's that other system that facilitates the production of enough food to feed literally everyone that always manages to fail to do so?
the implication here is that everyone starves under communist regimes in eastern europe and asia and i'm telling you that they didn't, retard. Capitalism does a great job feeding us but it has also fucked up, as in the case of Ireland. It also doesn't have a great record of keeping third worlders fed, and if it does it keeps them glutted with the unhealthiest kind of food possible, shedding years off their lives and burdening them with chronic conditions like diabetes and heart disease. Having no food is awful but once you solved that feeding people is only half the solution. Ironically, the British people came out of World War 2 healthier because rationing not only kept them fed but nutritiously so.

>>3092631
Dairy. And they are reputed to have loved it as fiercely as they came to love potatoes.
Other than that, they probably just ate a lot of grains. There were already plenty of cows there, so I'd guess there was also quite some beef.
>>3092677
I'm not even that other guy you were arguing with. I just found your phrasing humorous. You don't even have to look that hard to find a communist regime that didn't suffer from famine. Yugoslavia didn't. Vietnam had some food shortages in the 80s, but nothing that could really be considered a famine.

>>3089621
Irish are anglo, you speak english and behave like brits. No difference. Basically like Germany and Austria.

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>>3092677
>Appropriate so much domestic product it causes starvation
>Impose insanely high import tariffs so no one can afford to import jack
>This is capitalism

>>3089643
>>3089661
>The Faroes are in Britain
>The Danish government did not intentionally prevent Icelanders from succeeding

How come /his/ is so ignorant on Icelandic/Faroese history?

Is it true that Turks sent food to the irish but the brits didn't allow it? Why fucking turks out of all nations?

>>3092783
Yes that's true

>>3087675
>ITT people who know nothing of the subject matter and only seek to validate their own political opinions

Go back to leftypol