How would you respond if a person tells you that "money

>>3085589

No, but it does buy you the things you need to be happy, unless you are happy being a homeless bum who survives solely on donated food.

you're right, self fulfillment eludes even the inordinately wealthy
the lamentable state of the human condition is that we will always seek what we cannot obtain

>>3085589
"yeah true"

>>3085589

People who say that haven't been shopping in the right places

That it´s probably true, but then again neither poverty can garantee happiness. On the contrary, it limits your choices and possibilites of acquiring it.

Say you can find happiness by moving to Thailand and becoming a transvestite buddhist bhikkshu/part time prostitute. Good luck with that if you´re poor.

>>3085589
Well you see I just have to disagree with you. With money I buy various items such as drugs or entertainment systems. This releases dopamine which inturn causes happiness. So yes, money can buy happiness.

>>3085621
My man

>>3085589
"Well, it can make a pretty goddamn good down payment on it!"

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>>3085589

Happiness as a concept has been romanticized in modern Western society to where it has become an intangible, abstract concept. The differs between cultures, but for the most part the whole "road to happiness" and self-help craze is all a part of this relatively new concept. Happiness in Western society used to be a job, a family, and some security in wealth. Now happiness is an unobtainable goal that must be chased for a lifetime.

Humans simply are not designed for happiness in this way. Our brains work in a way that we will adapt and get used to nearly any situation. There are many studies that show that poor people in undeveloped nations have higher levels of happiness (or satisfaction) than those in Western cultures. If your day consists of milking cows, working in the sun, and manual labor then there is less time to spent speculating on your happiness. You do your work, go home, be with your family, and do it again.

Without the concept of self-actualization or individual progression -- such as those in the West -- or far less time to dwell why you aren't happy then you are more likely to find satisfaction.

Because of the higher standard of living Westerners have essentially been afforded the privilege to consider themselves unhappy and/or depressed. The constant battle for self-improvement, while noble, ultimately cannot lead to a satisfying end. There will always be a goal ahead for people who seek constant improvement and thus will never truly be happy.

Even more recently happiness has become intertwined with comfort. In that young people today directly correlate their overall "happiness" or satisfaction with how comfortable they may be in a single moment or on a day to day basis. This will become a worse problem with time, since your comfort levels should have no bearing on my happiness.

This isn't actually something I study. So maybe I'm a brainlet.

Money is a tool. Without the right tool, you can't get the job done, but that doesn't mean there's only one use for said tool, or that the job can be only done with one particular tool. I mean, to hammer a nail I could use a stone or a hammer. And similarly, I could use the hammer to kill a hobo, or use the stone to break a window.

So, at the end of the day, yeah, money can't buy happiness because, at one hand, happiness is a vague concept that we could achieve through different means (if doing drugs is your definition of happiness, I wonder how you have the intelligence to be here); and at the other hand, because if you can obtain it through money, quite probably there are other ways to obtain it as well. I.e: a gun.

>>3085589
You're parroting bourgeois propaganda

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It isn't necessary, but it can certainly help.

Money is the most powerful artifact of magic that exists. Alchemists call it the Philosopher's Stone. Capable of generating anything one might need in his quest of transmutating his leaden soul into the gilded spark of divine light that which it be!

Need to pop into the Amazon and live among the promordial shaman for a spell? Need a sound proof room and recording equipment to create magical music? Need other people to submit to the most heinous sex acts you can imagine? Money can make anything you want, happen. The panacea of happiness and individual enlightenment. The trick is getting enough of it, without spending your life in search of it. That's what separates real magicians from the Armchair studiers.

>>3085589

Go ask homeless people how happy they are being without money, I guess. Then ask a rich person how much money they'd be willing to give up. Observe the results of both experiments and compare notes.

I don't want money because I pursue happiness. I want money because I pursue independence, self-fulfilment and feeling superior to others. Different things.

>>3085589
I would say "Make sure that you are saying that honestly and not because you secretly want to buy into a narrative that excuses your own failure to make money. Now, obviously, health and being morally upstanding are more important than money. And certainly the correlation between money and happiness is not linear, and there is some good reason to believe that after a certain level of wealth has been reached, further wealth does not bring further happiness. All that said, however, in my life so far I have generally been happier as a person the more money I was making."

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>>3085600
>t. Schopenhauer

>>3086532
Homeless people suffer because they failed to stay afloat in society were as the rich have succeeded.

Go ask a nomadic hunter-gatherer living a million miles away from civilization and I guarantee he'll be happier then both.

>>3085589
All you require is financial security. Frivolous materialism results in a frivolous lifestyle. You'll end up missing out on everything that actually means anything. And then you'll lose decency.

>>3085599
Happiness doesn't come from the outside material world whatsoever, its discovered within.

Hence the existence of Sannyasas who have given up every material possession and survive by begging for food

>>3085621
The happiness you experience by material activities is not real happiness at all but actually just bodily comforts. The pleasure derived from it is so unsatisfactory that it only leaves one wanting more of the given pleasure.

>>3086657
And they would reply:
>jesus, you sure do like the sound of your own voice

>>3085589
"Anybody who says ya' can't buy happiness ain't shoppin' in the right places." -my Grandfather

"Heh, heh, heh! Thar' ain't nothin' wrong with bein' a Jew! Heh, heh, heh!"
-also my grandfather, but sleep-talking

>>3087725
I'm not Sannyasas

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Money may not be able to buy you happiness, but it can provide you with opportunities to avoid hardships as well as pursue avenues that will possibly make you happy.
With money, you can pay your bills and take a class in Sculpting at the community centre

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>>3085589
Give me all your money.

>>3088209
But you could be, is the point.

>>3085589
I would tell him that there's empiric data which proves him wrong. Wealthy people are generally happier than poor people.

>>3088273
Why do you say that? You don't even know me. Is everyone capable of being everyone else? Is that what you're saying?

>>3088287
your post implies that money is what made them happier. correlation doesn't imply causation. actual experiments performed in such a way as to allow causation to be determined showed that earning money does cause a small increase in happiness up until a certain point (around 75k iirc). other things like being satisfied with your job and relationships are the main contributors to happiness.

>>3088639
Not having to worry about monetary issues is a huge factor. Poor people are significantly more likely to be depressed and this has something to do with their poverty. Obviously past a certain point money won't make you any happier but that is where we get into the territory where money becomes a luxury rather than the means to provide for your basic needs. And if those are threatened you will be unhappy. Money does indeed buy you happiness. Obviously you can still become depressed even if you're filthy rich, but it's much less likely to happen.

>>3085589
money guards against the things that can destroy happiness

>>3085589
Money ensures I have financial security. Financial security gives me peace of mind and lets me live my life at ease. Peace of mind and no struggles makes me happy.

Money gives you the power to achieve happiness. Poverty does not.

Therefore money does buy happiness,

>>3085589
Maybe money can't buy happiness. But it can buy puppies, which is pretty much the same thing.

money cant buy happiness, but it can buy a huge yacht so you can cruise just close enough to it

>>3085589
"ya, but it helps"

>>3089735
Good answer. Not too affirmative of money but not negative enough to be edgy.

Dependa on how much you need to be happy. Nothing would make me happier than buying a house or cars for my family members and friends but i personally dont need that.

>>3088774
again, you're forgetting that a lot of the reason poor people are depressed is that depressed people might be more likely to be poor. causation could work either way and the kind of studies you're referring to weren't meant to gain insight into causation

>>3085589
>become instantly rich as all fuck
>buy all the drugs, hookers, and cool shit you can possibly fathom
>fall asleep in your 100k bed out of your mind on the most expensive substances you could buy
>for just a brief second, realize you're the same person you were before becoming rich and your entire life is not suddenly reconciled by money
>realize the money isnt curing the disease, just the symptoms
>do it again every day until you die

Money buys fun, not happiness

>>3091349
But money can buy a jet ski, and I have a hypothesis that it's impossible to be unhappy on a jet ski.

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>suddenly don't have to work
>suddenly smug forever never having my back and spirit broken
>suddenly have unlimited time to pursue creative works in a domain of my choosing

Yes it does you fucking cunt.

>>3091349

>Get's 1 billion dollars somehow
>Builds virus or robots that destroy human race
>As dying, finally reach ultimate peace and smile to yourself at the death of several billion autists.
>Maybe the monkies will build another civilization in 100 million years

Ultimate happiness

>>3091349

Access to fun activities is a component of happiness.

>>3090755
>>3090755

>causation could work either way

No, it really can't. Nobody gets depressed because they think they have too much money. That's something that only happens in movies. Lots of people in real-life get depressed because they think they don't have enough money, though.

>>3091388
>Nobody gets depressed because they think they have too much money.
You're fucking stupid. by "causation could work either way" I meant that being depressed could make you poor.

>>3085589
you're right, it cant, but at least I'm not starving

>>3085589

They're wrong. Money can buy security, health, and freedom to what you enjoy instead of wageslaving all day.

>>3091412

That's not true though. Sometimes rich people get depressed but they're still rich. The government doesn't empty out your bank account just because you were sad.

>>3091367
thats basicly why I think being a neet is so amazing, but experience shows that not having to do anything for your living can make you a piece of shit thats to lazy for anything

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>>3091369

>What I would do with unlimited money.

>>3091428
none of what you said has anything to do with what I said.

>>3091433

Look, I respect your right to have an opposing opinion, I'm just pointing out that you're wrong.

>>3085682
Nice well said

>>3091439
none of what you're saying is an argument against what I said

>>3091448

I respectfully disagree.

>>3091429
Yes but most of the time when you're a NEET you're also poor which is what fucks you over.

>>3091457
this isn't a matter of personal disagreement. explain to me how anything you said is an argument against what I said.

>you: Studies show that wealthy people are generally happier than poor people
>me: Your studies were about correlation not causation. Saying that wealth is correlated with happiness does not mean that more wealth causes more happiness. It could be the case that low happiness causes less wealth. However, it is true that research focused on causation has showed that money cause some happiness up to a point.
>you: But money makes people happy up until a certain point. (just repeating what I said)
>me: As I said, causation could work either way. (meaning depression could cause low wealth)
>you: Nope, no one gets depressed because they think they have too much money (has nothing to do with what I said)
>me: You're dumb, I meant depression could cause low wealth.
>you: Nope, sometimes rich people get depressed but they're still rich
>me: has nothing to do with what I said (me saying depression could cause a dip in wealth doesn't mean that all rich people experience decreased wealth so pointing out that "sometimes rich people stay rich when they get depressed" doesn't argue against what I said)

>>3091482

>I meant depression could cause low wealth.

But that's not true, though. Sure, rich people can be depressed, but they're not depressed because they have money, they get depressed because of other factors in their life. For example, some things like losing a close friend or family member hurt regardless of income level. But simply being depressed for a period of time doesn't cause your money to disappear.

>>3091514
>Sure, rich people can be depressed, but they're not depressed because they have money
Once again you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that increased wealth causes decreased happiness. I'm saying decreased happiness could cause decreased wealth.

>me: has nothing to do with what I said (me saying depression could cause a dip in wealth doesn't mean that all rich people experience decreased wealth so pointing out that "sometimes rich people stay rich when they get depressed" doesn't argue against what I said)

All I'm saying is that you pointed out research which shows that happiness is correlated with wealth. The possible explanations for this is that increased wealth causes increased happiness, increased happiness causes increased wealth, or some other factors causes wealth and happiness to be correlated. You spent your posts trying to say that it was only that first scenario which is true: increased wealth causes increased happiness. I pointed out that that is true up to a point, however, I also pointed out the other scenario: increased happiness causes increased wealth. This is what I am saying in that greentext above in this post.

>But simply being depressed for a period of time doesn't cause your money to disappear.
This is you just denying the possibility of that second scenario that I brought up without any support whatsoever. It would be like me denying the first scenario like this: But simply being wealthy for a period of time doesn't cause your happiness to increase.

>>3085589
That it can buy me a boat.

>>3091539

>Le edgy "but correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation!"

Sometimes it does.

>>3091579
I didn't deny there was causation here. I'm pointing out that causation can work 3 ways so it is wrong for the person I'm responding to to just assume the 1 of the ways is the only real thing happening.

>>3088236
How the hell did this pic slip through the cracks?

>>3091588
The fact that it 'could' work either way does not imply that both possibilities are equally likely. There are plenty of studies on this subject and rich people generally report to be happier than poor people. It should be immediately apparent that having money implies being able to securely exist, as ones basic needs are taken care of. Being poor poses an existential threat which naturally causes people to worry. Certainly someone who is rich might still have to worry about illness, relationship problems and whatelse - but all these things affect the poor person too (and arguably more so) and thus should occur each likely among them. I can't think of any kind of trouble that would cause a rich person suffering that does not also affect the poor, while the poor is threatened by lots of things that the rich person is safe from. In that regard data that indicates that rich people are happier should not be surprising.

>>3085682
>Happiness in Western society used to be a job, a family, and some security in wealth. Now happiness is an unobtainable goal that must be chased for a lifetime.
Sounds live you've never picked up a book on Greek philosophy

>>3093099
you didn't add anything new to the convo. I already said that I agree research shows that wealth causes some happiness. all I'm saying is that you shouldn't disregard the possibility that depression causes some decrease in wealth. both of those things can be true at once.

>>3093148
>all I'm saying is that you shouldn't disregard the possibility that depression causes some decrease in wealth.
I should clarify that this also means that happiness could cause an increase in wealth.

I'd say they're correct. You don't need money. You need what you need. Money just helps you get that in this society. But it also helps get you a whole lot of things that you don't need and will make you less happy. So if you can find some way to get what you need without money, more power to you. Until then, there's nothing wrong with using money to get what you need. The main thing is to just carefully consider what you need, and get only those things.

>>3088273
or I could have money you fuck

>>3093148
>I already said that I agree research shows that wealth causes some happiness.
I would rather say that poverty causes unhappiness as it results in existential worries.

We need to distinguish between clinical depression and unhappiness however. Depression in a medical sense is likely not caused by outer circumstances but more dependent on a biological pre-disposition. People with depression are more likely to be poor due to their condition, however, poor people are also more likely to be depressed due to their various worries - even though they might not actually be afflicted with actual 'depression'.

Happiness resulting in wealth sounds oddly Calvinist to me. I would say that happiness is generally the result rather than the cause.

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True. I guess I was still viewing "happiness" through a modern lense. The common man in the 19th century did not live by the virtues of Greek philosopher. A learned man, maybe, but I'd imagine he was still more concerned with acquiring a trade and family.

I could be entirely wrong since I'm knowledgeable, but it SEEMS like just the idea idea of happiness is quite different.

>>3093224
>I would rather say that poverty causes unhappiness as it results in existential worries.
Again you're not adding anything new to the convo and now it seems like you're being obtuse. when I say "wealth causes some happiness" that also implies that "poverty causes unhappiness". It's a two way thing. More money more happiness, less money less happiness.

Also people haven't been using depression to mean in the clinical sense it's just been a shorthand for unhappiness in this thread.

>>3093243
>Also people haven't been using depression to mean in the clinical sense it's just been a shorthand for unhappiness in this thread.
Your whole original argument was based around depression being the cause rather than the result though - and you'd have been right if you had been talking about clinical depression.

>>3093259
the only point I'm making is that its possible for unhappiness to cause a decrease in wealth. whether or not depression is included in that definition doesn't matter to me. I just haven't been using the word depression in the past to strictly refer to its clinical use

>>3085589
It can