So I was watching Game of Thrones the other day (sue me), and

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>>3071481
The logistics of keeping 300.000 horse nomads and there 1 million horses alive pretty much requires they stay on a large enough steppe.

The moment they move out of that the countdown starts and attrition starts to eat away their horses and herds.

That said in Europe western powers frequently faced horse archers in open combat and won.

The Huns, Avars, Magyars, Seljuks and eventually Mongols were defeated in open battle by armies of sedentary states. Besides that they could launch hit and run attacks from their castles and retreat to them when they needed to.

You could look at the Magyar invasions and how the Germans killed them or the Second/Third Mongol Invasion of Poland and third invasion of Hungary.

>>3071481
The Poles and Hungarians figured this out when the Mongols came back the second time

The dilemma was they couldn't really take the Mongols in a normal field battle and they couldn't just let them pillage everything obviously

So in the intervening years they built hundreds of hard to tackle castles everywhere and used them to safely sortie and wreck smaller bands of Mongols, eventually whittling the invaders down to a demoralized state which they expelled from their lands

As far as I know that's the only way. Win the local battles and isolate the larger forces

>>3071493
IIRC the Hungarians did fight large parts of the Mongols in open battle during the second invasion.

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>>3071491
More Asian ponies

>>3071481
Burn the grass and poison the water, good luck feeding your horses cavalrycucks gg no re

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>>3071491
The horse people fear the German knight!

>>3071481
>So I was watching Game of Thrones the other day (sue me), and in one of the scenes, these guys were talking about what would happen if a bunch of Not!Mongolians (300,000) showed up to rove around the countryside, slaughtering and killing everyone in the kingdom, while the rest of the people hid in their castles, waiting for the horse riders to come to them because they would be too nervous to meet them out in the open field where the horse archer's better mobility would B them TFO.
Lel you were watching the very first chapters

>>3071491
Myth.

No European armies ever defeat a real Mongol army in the field.

>>3071491
>>3071493
>>3071506

That's quite interesting, but what about just a regular old army of cavalry/archers/pikemen/etc? Then what? Just chase them around with your own army like it's some weird Scooby-Doo music video until your entire country-side's burned up and you've finally managed to soften them up after a year of chasing?

>>3071519
Battle of Samara Bend

Checkmate

>>3071524
You get your army in the field and either force them to battle or make them fuck off.

The French army at the siege of Tournai did the latter. They just camped like 5 miles from the English and waited for the English supplies to run out.

>>3071506
im sure your population will love you for that

>>3071519
>>3071526
Didn't the Polacks use their jewish magic to win the battle of Dunajcem and Starym Sączem

The Saxons built forts to store all their food and valuables and keep their people safe from viking raiders. Everyone nearby would get their shit and go inside their local fort. Without food invaders are dead unless they can resupply which is costly, slow and near impossible to defend. Even small forts and castles can be costly and time consuming to capture. The vikings could burn farms and dig around for buried wealth but unless they were willing to lose at least one man for every man inside a fort they couldn't get anything of value.

Game of thrones is notoriously bad with numbers for army sizes and city populations as well as even simple things like heights and lengths of buildings/continents. So I assume any army of 300,000 people will need to capture a city of 100,000,000 or something and will either do it or not do it depending on the plot and how horny that over-weight author guy is.

>>3071516
Sadly enough that was last season as well

>>3071481
Dothraki are literally not Mongolians. Just because they share some features
>steppes
>lot of horsies
it doesn't make them good warriors, although uneducated brats will have hard time seeing difference, and they will automatically assume Dothraki=Mongols
>lack of any tactics
>didn't achieve anything, they ale only dangerous to some unprepared city states in books
>they don't only have armours, they also lack any good weapons(muh mobility)
>no bows either
They are primitives so in any realistic scenario they wouldn't be any danger against late medieval/Renaissance armies.
You can absolutely forget about them capturing any fortified positions, not only castles and walled cities
You can forget about them beating any organized army in open battle. They have absolutely no way to deal with armoured units.
So basically all they can do is to avoid any combat and fortified settlements and loot some villages. 300k Army is out of question, because it will be not worth it for them.

>>3071481

Depends. Early Rome they had far larger numbers and better discipline allowing them to overtake incursions.

Later the population outside the Empire had grown, borders were longer, and Roman armies often smaller, particularly in comparison. They switched to defense in depth using interior forts, paying foreign militia with frontier land they then had an incentive to guard, and forcing beaten tribes to give them conscripts to fight other tribes.

Once you develop decent fire arms Mongols become rapidly obsolete.

As WWI demonstrated, bolt action rifles then make all calvary forever useless.

>>3071519
Oh, it's the classic
>It didn't count, they were not real Mongols!
>Real Mongols didn't fail to conquer x, they just decided to not to!

>>3071545
They only don't have bows in the show, which is such an odd change and makes the gift of the dragonbone bow make no fucking sense

>>3071557
Ah, my bad. I could only remember descriptions, how they did broke up on infantry formations.

>>3071481
>So I was watching Game of Thrones the oth-
Kill yourself.

>>3071481
>What do when large army shows up on your shores?

In the beginning you just pay them off and hope they fuck off and raid your rivals (i.e. Huns, Magyars, Vikings). After a while you can figure out decent tactics, but for the given examples the most important thing imho was for the fractured kingdoms/states to unite against the Steppe/snowniggers (an enemy you know is always better)

>>3071526
>strength for both sides: unknown
>casualties for both sides: unknown

so ten guys get injured and this is a mighty European victory?

and it's won by the most European of Europeans: the Bulgars

kek

>>3071526
>Volga Bulgaria
>Europe

damn...

>>3071637
Check version history, some Turkish retard deleted strenght and casualties. Also whether Bulghars had superior numbers (they couldn't) is irrevelant, your claim that Mongols were never beaten on the field got refuted.
>>3071639
It literally is you retard. Europe ends on Caucascus and Ural.

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>>3071707
No! Europe is my completely arbitrary definition of what best fits my narrative and makes me feel superior!

>>3071491
T. The Shitgarian poster

>>3071514
True. Zey were Germans after all.

>>3071614
You sure showed him.

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>>3071481
>Any historical examples of a large army just appearing on an empire's shores?
If you've got 90 minutes to kill, listen to this podcast. It's from a lecture given at West Point about the Crusades, specifically the contrast between Western and Eastern warfare. He hits on a lot of what you're asking.

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/podcasts/John%20France%20-%20Crusades%20128.mp3

>>3071481
>destroying tax opportunity
>>3071524
go after their homeland

>>3071546
>As WWI demonstrated, bolt action rifles then make all calvary forever useless.
What is the Russian Civil War and the Polish Bolshevik War, in which the Soviets used army-sized cavalry formations?

>>3072426
> go after their homeland
That sure worked well for Hannibal didn't it

>>3071639
The Danube Bulgars also had victories against the Mongols. Funny as hell they won after the throne was seized by a angry peasant who crowned himself king. He fucked the Byzantines, then he fucked the Mongols, then everyone believed him he was of noble birth, he then got fucked and died in Mongol imprisonment

>>3071545
I really had to laugh when there's that part in the first season where the one knight with the notmongols is saying "yeah that curved sword you have is nice on horseback, but it won't do anything against platemail. What you really need for that is a longsword"

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>>3072592
Only because Rome was the exception to this rule because of its unbelievably dogged determination not to be defeated. Generally when over 300k of a single generation of your male population is killed in battle, you sue for peace. Rome? They recruited 100k more men, armed them, and gave Carthage the finger while the built more ships and recruited more auxilia to invade Spain and Africa with.
Rome was unstoppable for over three centuries just because they refused to be beaten and were willing to sacrifice every able-bodied Roman male for war. Which is fucking bonkers if you consider the fact that this is half a step away from modern mobilization in an age where entire armies went home to sow and harvest crops and spent winter off the field entirely.

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>>3071514

>>3072696
>pointy sword can pierce plate
Every time I see this meme I die a little on the inside.

>>3072696
GRRM doesn't need to care about the details of combat. His only concern is the grain production and it's inflationary effect on the Westeros economy during a period where bank lending is at an all time high while poverty is at an all time low and whether or not dragons should have 4 limbs or 2.

>>3071481
Read what fabius did to ``great`` general of carthago. That is what you do to superior force.

>>3073295
>dump into Personality and Luck
>neglect Intelligence, Willpower, and Strength
I've been in better written D&D campaigns

>>3071493
The Golden Horde isolated themselves from the rest of the Khans too by attacking Ilkhanate. Lack of foresight due to "muh islam" also contributed to the second mongol raid failure.

The first one was with the full backing of the Mongol empire. The second one was after they split off.

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>>3071481
>>3071545
"!mongols"

>>3073600
mongols would not have been armoured on a large scale before they captured china

>>3073639
Why wouldn't they be?

>>3073642
cus they were a bunch of poor pastoral nomads.

>>3072696
I know, anyone else would recommend a katana for it's ability to cut through anything

>>3073645
>>3073642
not that it matters much.
But I think we should compare the dothraki to the mongols BEFORE they got big

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>>3073646
well, the show has shown us that longswords can stab through plate, chain AND padding!

>>3073645
Your ignorance is showing.

Genghis Khan simply didn't shimmer out of steppe and started conquering. The tribes surrounding the Jin/Song were always fighting each other either against Chinese or against each others.

They weren't poor nomads, they were nomadic tribes that regularly fought against others.

Genghis Khan and other local tribes are often employed by Song/Jin to fight each other, fight other parties, etc. They have historical lifetime of war experience.

>>3073674
>They have historical lifetime of war experience.
That does not make their equipment great

>>3073674
Also to add, the Chinese strategy to keep the nomads controlled was to have them fight each other. Every time one tribe became too strong, the Chinese would employ alliance of other tribes to destroy the new "big" shot.

>>3073655
Even Mongols before they got "big", assuming before conquering China, would have raped the GoT "!mongols". The !mongols are comparable to vikings with horses. Completely garbage for anything other than show of force.

>>3071481
armies' management is completely irrelevant. What about tax policies?

>>3073695
The nomads surrounding China have always traded with China and adopted their war weapons. This was true for Xiongnu, it was true for the Mongols.

I don't know how you perceive of the mongols or the normadic tribes surrounding China, but they're not savage without any idea of civilization. The tribes surrounding China simply choses to be nomads due to cultural and societal forces. They still have contacts with China, they still trade goods/culture, they still fight wars, etc. Not only that, they are tributary states of China. So when they send China with goods as tributes, China sends back goods in return, often times much more than they got. This includes weapons/armors/culture/clothing, etc

>>3073707
>What about tax policies?
what about them?
Cant remember GoT ever mentioned them in any depth...

>>3073715
clothes, sure. but why arm barbarians that might be your enemies tomorrow?

That wouldn't happen because the Mongols feared the black warrior

>>3073719
To fight other barbarians.

Chinese are quite arrogant but also intelligent enough to control the barbaric tribes to fight against one another.

The Chinese are also more powerful if they need to fight them, but they're also generous so the barbarians are shown that its better off to simply play nice with China.

The downfall of China is when few genius/intellectual people seize power in the nomadic tribes. Or when intelligent/genius people seize power elsewhere.

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>>3073665
Some swords can

>>3071481
In reality they wouldn't get very far. In every engagement they would take losses from crossbows, a proportion would die of disease, their supplies and grazing for horses would be expended and supply lines were vulnerable to raiding parties from untaken castles.

Hungary is far smaller than "Westeros" and only had a few castles on its borders at the time of the Mongol invasions, it contains vast plains which would have given the Mongols and advantage and the Holy Roman Empire was at odds with the Papacy and the Mongols did not face a committed effort by the major powers of Europe. Although their withdrawal was due to the death of Ögedei Khan, I don't think it was feasible for them to push into Germany and Italy with more bottlenecks due to forests and rivers, often guarded by castles, and fewer grazing for horses. The Mongols may have defeated the armies sent against them, but war is chaotic and it would be an incredible risk facing repeated battles on the scale of Mohi. The Mongols were far more technologically advanced than the "Dothraki", I would go as far as saying the Huns were also.

>>3073817
Wasn't Hungary full of smaller fortresses wich exhausted the Mongols with siege after siege after siege?

>>3073757
Light sabers maybe

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>>3071491
>European armies frequently met Horse archers in combat and won
I would go to wikipedia and screencap and make a MS paint compilation of the amount of Mongol victories in European soil & their destruction of multiple European kingdoms, but I'm too lazy right now. So have this general overview.
>>3071514
In the few times the Mongols encountered these, they mowed them all down with next to no survivors.

>>3073822
Only after they built stone castles in response to the first invasion. Wooden city walls and fortifications were apparently not as difficult to take.

>>3072696
He's right. Good luck stabbing a gap in armor with a curved sword, especially one as sharply curved as a dothraki-kopesh-thing.

>>3071481
The comparison is wildly different. Mongols had an organized army that used decimal systems and command hierarchy, not a hoard. They also employed the best siege tactics in their times and stormed many large cities.

>>3073817
>>3073822
No. The reason mongols didn't face the combined force of Europe was they knew that Europe was divided. The mongols split their own ~100K force down to multiple smaller divisions and raided different parts of E.Europe. This wasn't a random act of mongol, but rather a calculated act by Subutai, the aged general, planning this. He split off his army to divide and conquer and to keep them from reinforcing each other.

You can say "oh mongols can't fight a united Europe" but in reality, mongols didn't let it happen as they took advantage of a divided Europe. You can also say "mongols possibly cannot have known Europe was divided and its impossibru", but in reality, mongols had already known what the European climate was like. They had previously skirted near Europe during their invasion of Middle East. Not only that, before the European raid even took place, they spent ~3-5 years gathering information on the terrains/local politics before planning this whole campaign.

>mongols exhausted by siege after siege
Not quite so. Mongols had been riding high up until the Battle of Mohi without much resistance, mainly because lack of discipline/confusion on defenders side. The battle of Mohi is when the Hungarian King had gained bit of knowledge on mongols and was smart enough to try to counter them. Still it wasn't much to the mongols, one bit of problem in this entire campaign was easily accountable in this campaign run.

The mongols only withdrew their campaign due to the Khan's death. Europe was spared the destruction. Subutai had drawn up the line of invasion of entire europe, his plan was to conquer europe within 10-15 years.

>>3073915
Don't forget that the Mongols had the most sophisticated spy system in history up to the point, they reportedly had spies all the way up to northern England who lived there as citizens, so they know the climate, political situation, culture, and many other things very well.

>>3073915
>They had previously skirted near Europe during their invasion of Middle East.
What part of Europe? The only place they got remotely close to by then was Constantinople and maybe some Italian trading posts. There were no Mongol scouts trotting around Ireland and Norway.

The myth that mongols did all their conquering without infantry, siege engineers or logistics, just archers on horseback needs to die.

>>3073966
They defeated groups of Russians/Turks early on during the Middle East campaign, more specifically, Subutai.

Mongol information gathering system wasn't simply limited to them horsing around. It was sophisticated in such a way that they'd get the locals to talk information. They'd also send ambassadors/etc across the regions or just as plaincloths merchant/spy.

>>3071546
>As WWI demonstrated, bolt action rifles then make all calvary forever useless.

Except they are fantastic for scouting and transportation.

>>3073935
>they reportedly had spies all the way up to northern England
proof?

The trouble is the mongols were expert siege engineers. The motley assortment in the series is probably more akin to the horde of Atilla. The way Atilla was dealt with was they tried to avoid fighting him or bribed him off until he died and his empire disintegrated overnight.

>>3073719

Same reason that the Europeans sold guns to African tribesmen. Having armor/guns gives that tribes/clans a huge advantage over tribes/clans that don't. Depending on your needs, you can now harness that clan to pacify the other clans and get them to leave you alone, or your can supply both sides (and make money from both sides) and get the nomads to kill each other instead of raping and pillaging your peasants.

The Southern Song supplied the Mongols with large batches of armor/other equipment during their "alliance" against the Jin. Worked out well in helping the Mongols wreck the Jin, didn't work out well when the Mongols continued on to conquer the Song.

>>3073976
I fell for this meme. Redpill me.

I know they had armor that was even quite sophisticated for its peers, and I know they were supposedly very good tacticians, but other than that, whenever I hear "Mongolians", all I can think about is what I saw on that one episode of Southpark.

>>3075172
Stop falling for mainstream meme on mongols. This is highly inaccurate.

The mongols came to power through the use of their intelligence/diplomacy/societal reform/etc.

Think diplomats, warriors, strategists, etc when dealing with Mongols. Especially before they split off. Their system of warfare is highly sophisticated for its time, more so than the Europe/MiddleEast of its time.

They attack based on intelligence network, not brute strength. They promote generals/leaders based on merits, capability and intelligence rather than familial connections.

>>3075172
They pressed a ton of non-Mongols into their military and had high ranking non-Mongol advisors/generals to help with diplomacy, intelligence, siege warfare etc.

>>3075172
>I know they had armor that was even quite sophisticated for its peers,
It's plain old Lamellar, the kind niggers from China all the way to the Middle East's Turkic invaders wore.

>>3073966
Too bad Ogedai's ambassador reached all the way to England, than.

>>3075172
>I know they had armor that was even quite sophisticated for its peers
Any proof? And keep in mind, we are talking about Mongols BEFORE they conquered China

>>3075172
Mongol armors were't superior by any means, they were similar to the ones used by the Jurchins/Jin/Song, atleast the mass produced version. However mongol version is slightly modified to be bit more lighter. Song/Jin were wearing heavy iron/steel lamellar. Mongols probably opted for variety depending on their tactics, light hit/run leathers and steel/iron for lancers.

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>>3072421
Here's another podcast/lecture, "The Development of Infantries in the Late Middle Ages and in the Early Renaissance."

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/podcasts/Al%20Winkler%20-%20Medieval%20Infantries%20320kbps.mp3

>>3073882
The best longsword tactic against an opponent in plate armour was literally to flip the sword around, hold it by the blade and use the pommel as a mace. It's in quite a few fighting manuals.

>>3073915
Before news of Ögedei's death the Mongols had sent at least 1 mingghan to Vienna. Vienna by this time had grown wealthy from trade along the Danube. A few decades earlier the Duke of Vienna had captured Richard the Lionheart and used some of his ransom to build city walls. The current Duke also fought at Mohi and was well aware of the threat, he quickly raised his knights and cornered the Mongols who lost 100s of men in 2 engagements.

If I were biased in favor of the Mongols I might argue that had Ögedei not died and they attacked Vienna in full force they might have sacked it also, though it isn't realistic to suppose they could do so for every city in Europe without being worn down. If Subutai had accurate information he would have reached the same conclusion. The idea the Mongols would have conquered everything from Ireland to Finland to Constantinople to Portugal had Ögedei not died is a veritable meme.

>>3074064
While they could siege the cities of China and the middle east successfully and this was an impressive feat a Mongol conquest of a heavily fortified Europe would put them to the test. The difference is that one is a walled city that dominates an entire region and the other is a network of fortresses that defend local areas and each other.

One large siege is difficult enough. A dozen smaller sieges is worse, plus the benefits of capturing a large city are larger (loot, captives, dominating the region). If you capture a castle you get a lot less of all those things.

>>3072287
>descendants of horseniggers would hate horse niggers
Does not compute

>>3071707
>some turk

Prove it. Provide a real source that isn't wikipedia.

>your claim that Mongols were never beaten on the field got refuted.
No, little one, it didn't. For starters your "source" has no numbers, and I said a real army. The numbers *are* relevant. Yeesh.

>>3075471

I disagree, China was one of the most heavily fortified places on earth. They would wall off entire mountain passes, if one could not capture the gate, the army has to detour around the mountain range or go no further. They also built giant walls to force horses to travel through choke points (the walls can be scaled easily, but horses cannot climb). These form a similar strategic purpose to the hedge rows popular in Germanic countries, with the exception that they cannot be set on fire. The irony is, that the hedgerows were destroyed in many places to make room for the Manorial Open Field system, which sacrificed actual defensive value for the province in exchange for greater profits and a concentration of defensive force in the hands of the local liege lord, who could rake in the dough from his now defenseless and plaintive serfs. Another reason for this was the hedgerows negated the cavalry advantage the nobility held, they removed this impediment to improve their own effectiveness, while rendering the area as a whole vulnerable to cavalry attack.

Fortifications were generally better in the east than the west. Before the crusaders brought the knowledge back from the Levant, European castles were basically simple square tower and barbican designs. From the east they learned the art of hidden entrances, oblique entry, and angled zones of fire. But even the sophisticated eastern designs fell to the Mongols' mastery of gunpowder.

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>>3071639
>>3071526
>>3071637
Volga Bolgars != bulgarians
They were Muslim Turkics and pretty much used the same horse archer/ hit and run tactics as Mongols.

>>3077394
In a sense the Volga Bulgars preserved their Bulgar/nomadic identy for far longer, well into the 13th century than the Danube Bulgars who pretty much lost it when they became christians in the 9th century.

>>3077443
furthermore today's Kazan Tatars are basically Volga bolghars that got KHAN'D for a while.

>>3075265
>>3075321
>>3075336
Oops, my bad. I was thinking of that paper armor thing invented by the Koreans or the Chinese or something that was cheap to produce and provided similar protection to bronze and stuff.

>>3072696
>>3073157
>>3073295

I mean, he's KIND OF right. Murder stroking and half-swording weren't bad alternatives to spare hammers and maces, and it's not like you can employ those kinds of tactics with a kopesh or a katana. Also, I've yet to see them actually cut through plate armor on the show with just their swords.

In one duel between Brienne of Tarth (big bitch) and sme gay dude (that gay dude), Brienne manages to knock him over and lift his visor with a knife in her hands, because both of them were wearing full plate. In another scene between Bronn (mercenary dude) and some knight (that guy from the trial), Bronn only manages to kill him by slicing at the unprotected parts of his legs and driving a sword through a chink in his neck.

I don't know if Jorah Mormont (the guy who said you need a longsword to go through plate) meant it literally as in "You need a longsword to hack through plate armor", or if he meant it metaphorically as in "You can use the design of the longsword to defeat someone in plate armor", but the methods the actors use to kill similarly defended opponents in the show implies it's the latter, and I don't think Jorah Mormont (a well-trained knight) is dumb enough not to know the difference.

>>3071493
>The Poles and Hungarians figured this out when the Mongols came back the second time

>The dilemma was they couldn't really take the Mongols in a normal field battle

The hungarians actually beat the absolute shit out of the mongols in open battle during the second invasion.

>>3071524
Force them to fight.

>>3073642
Steppe nomads are not known for their industrial output.

>>3073674
Experience in war doesn't magically grant you metalworkers, metal, and the knowledge needed to make it into armor.

>>3073915
They literally started preparing to leave before the khan died. The Hungarian campaign had turned into a profitless meat grinder by that point, and the HRE was massing in sufficient numbers to give them pause.

Risk/reward was horribly off. "they left because the khan died" is old propaganda.


>>3075410
No, you'd primarily be stabbing. Mordhau isn't the super common thing you'd think.

>>3077214
>Fortifications were generally better in the east than the west. Before the crusaders brought the knowledge back from the Levant, European castles were basically simple square tower and barbican designs. From the east they learned the art of hidden entrances, oblique entry, and angled zones of fire.

And by the time the mongols got to europe, western designs were flatly superior.

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>>3071519

>>3077931
>"they left because the khan died" is old propaganda
Hungary/Poland/Russia was done by the time Ogedei died Mid Dec 1241. Within a month or two, they were preparing to leave. Mongol pony express can travel across thousands of miles in few weeks. So timeline is right within. I don't understand what you mean by mongols retreating before their Khan died. Mongols were still active pretty much up until the death of the Khan. They especially have a vested interest in going back to the kurultai meeting to elect a new Khan that is favorable to their conquest.

>Experience in war doesn't magically grant you metalworkers, metal, and the knowledge needed to make it into armor.

The name Temujin means blacksmith. He got that name after the death of a blacksmith from a rival tribe. The great general Subutai is from a family of blacksmiths. The turkic empire, from which the modern turkics all over the eurasia, was founded by a group of nomadic blacksmiths who got powerful. Not to mention they trade with other tribes, with the Chinese, with the Arabs, etc

Nomads doesn't mean retards.

>>3071481
The vast majority of them would die to disease and there is no goddamn way the land could support those horses. But they'll still wreck the shit out of the land before they die/settle/assimilate/dwindle back to where they came from.

It'd be one thin if they were attacking over land, but over sea is just suicide for them. They'd figure it out pretty much the second they land, too.

>>3073915
That 100K might be bit of an over estimate. Modern estimate is actually around ~30-40K. This was split up into few different segments, probably ~10K each or so, and then further subdivided for smaller raids.

>>3078187
http://theses.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/11023/232/2/ucalgary_2012_pow_lindsey.pdf

Page 17.

Rashid al din DIRECTLY contradicts the idea of the mongols knowing the khan was dead when they withdrew, and is a better source than carpini.

>Hungary/Poland/Russia was done by the time Ogedei died Mid Dec 1241. Within a month or two, they were preparing to leave.

First, they'd failed to take the handful of stone castles, and not for lack of trying. Second, they were sitting around minting coins and appointing officials to administer the area.

They were "done" inasmuch as they'd done everything they could without taking severe losses, and weren't going to continue sitting around murdering peasants with no valuables or getting shot by crossbows every time they tried to attack the places left with any wealth.

>They especially have a vested interest in going back to the kurultai meeting to elect a new Khan that is favorable to their conquest.
They didn't even know one had been called, and did not proceed directly home after leaving.

>>3078345
There's some glaring problem with Rashid's account.


First he wasn't even born when the Golden Horde was raiding the E.Europe. He started writing ~60 years after.

Second and most importantly, Ilkhanate and Golden Horde were enemies when he was writing his records. Not just any enemy, a dishonorable Mongol enemy since the Golden Horde attacked Ilkhanate and was also helping the Mamluks with supply/reinforcement. Since he was in the service of Ilkhanate Khan, it would be much welcome if he discredit the Golden Horde and their records.

I read the paper, it also highlights few things that I should address. The paper says the Mongols didn't attack HRE for a year or so even when they were at the borders. It asks why this wasn't the case. There is a very plausable answer to this. If you look at how mongols expanded in their early days, you'd understand how they played out the region. They first conquered the Tanguts, since they were the weakest and got their king's loyalty. Why didn't the mongols attack Jin dynasty and Song dynasty when they were attacking the Tanguts? They waited until the campaign was officially over. Then they went west to Persian empire to destroy them. When they were in Persia, they scouted the European empires. Why didn't mongols attack the E.Europeans when they were attacking the Persians? After the Persians, they returned back and destroyed the Tanguts for their betrayal. Why didn't they attack the Jin/Song once again when they were destroying the Tanguts? Etc etc

The answer to this is simple, they wanted proper closure before opening up another front nearby especially against a greater power especially without proper intel service and proper resource.

>>3078187
>Hungary/Poland/Russia was done by the time Ogedei died Mid Dec 1241
Kievan Rus was done
Yet, not only they didn't capture any stone fortifications in Hungary, Poland was far from being done. At that time Poland was fragmented, and only one duke was defeated in battle. And he was still waiting for reinforcements.

>>3071481
They arent' NotMongolians they are in fact NOT mongolians

>no mail service
>no complex command system
>no logistics
>no siege weapons
>no use of metallurgy at all for whatever reason
>no armor

b-but they scream and look scary! GRRM is an immense hack.

>>3078407
>The Two Cities: Medieval Europe 1050–1320
>Only six of the 72 castles managed to hold out
Hungary was nearly done at this point in time. Some stone castles remained, but they were in the minority of the surviving castles as most castles weren't stone castles.

>duke reinforcements
The Duke wasn't "waiting" for reinforcement, he was literally running from the Mongols. He was even almost killed by his own allies. His own allies extorted land from him (whom he later waged war against and claimed back).

File: NapalmResultsonJungle.jpg (30KB, 540x386px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 540x386px

>>3071506
This is unironically the truth. They're called scortched earth tactics, and have been heavily used in eastern europe since ancient times all the way to WW2.

Although you can burn the enemies land to slow his armies those tactics were applied on a nation's own land.

Armies need water and food for themselves and the horses. They'd send raiding parties to loot those things from nearby settlements or hunting and gathering parties to get shit from the local wood. They also heavily relied on supplies delivered from behind.

If you want to indirectly destroy an army passing through your lands there's lots of things you can do. The downside is you're fucking yourself over, but not as bad as the enemy would've fucked you if he could've. Here are some things you could that some rulers(Vlad the Impaler comes to mind) did:
>Poison streams and wells
The army can now only rely on water from supply lines
>Burn forests, fields, abandon settlements and empty them of loot
The army can now only rely on food from supply lines
>Send riders to harass the enemy supply lines
>Capture solders to learn intel about what the army's doing
>Release captured solders to return to their army after feeding them rotten food so they spread disease to their army
>The former army of well equipped, well supplied mounted solders with high morale now turns into a band of starving, diseased mutineers
>Ambush the enemy even if you have shit numbers because their organization is fading away
>Defeat the army and maim every pow before expelling them from your lands

>>3073295
>GRRM doesn't need to care about the details of combat. His only concern is the grain production

His only concern is food. He spends entire pages describing food.

>>3077931
Please stop. You are so fucking wrong it is painful to read what you wrote. Admit that you're wrong and move on with your life already instead of shitposting these assblasted Hungarian memes for more than a year.

>what if vikings had numbers and horse
GoT "Not!Mongols"

>>3078591
>scorched earth works on horseniggers
This is fucking rich
That sure explains why they scorched Persia after vigorously raping it in the ass! To deny themselves supplies!
Also,
>poisoning streams
How the fuck do you accomplish this?

>>3071481
Going to point this out now, mongol success had a lot more to with novel ideas about unit organisation, better means of battle field signaling, and field exercises then it did with horse archers.

Most of the People they fought either used horse archers themselves to various degree or at lest had a long history of fighting against foes that mainly used horse archers. As soon as they hit enemies with good military organizations Mongols either could not win (Delhi Sultanate, Mamluk Sultanate) or it took a very damn long time and rivers of their blood ( Song, Korea, etc).

>>3078746
I thought GoT "Not!Mongols" were more badly understood Huns/Scythians/Alanoi, and the Wildlings being "Not!Vikings/Slavs/Finns"

>>3078628
Don't forget myrish swamps and fat pink masts.

>>3078776
Looks more like vikings than actual horse nomads.

>barely any armor
>bare chested in some
>no bows

>>3078783
Very good point. However, I don't think the fuckers even use ranged weapons, which is fucking stupid. Even the Vikings used ranged weapons like bows and javelins.

>>3078774
There are lots of geographical differences between eastern Europe and Persia, yet you cannot deny it worked well in Europe.

>how do you make water bad
You can just shit in it

>>3078797
>You can just shit in it
does that actually work on flowing water? there's probably some pretty huge volume of it over a little time.

>>3078864
When you have a 300K people shitting in rivers, it will work.

>>3072696
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRYM6B7CTs8

Literally this fight right here. Dothraki are shit and will remain shit. The only reason the white haired bitch is conquering anything is because loldragons. A bunch of Dothraki steppenigggers on horseback isn't gonna do shit against pike squares and heavy cavalry.

>>3079855
What a fucking travesty. This is why the Vikings feared any sort of actual military units and only attacked defenseless monks or villagers.

>>3079878
Yes? The Vikings were pirates and not an organized army, so why the fuck should they want to attack the later when they are perfectly capable of using their superior maneuverability to pick off easy targets?