What's the most popular revisionism on 4chan that's

Moon landing was fake and america won ww1 memes

>>3025612
Holodomor is pretty controversial depending on how bad leftypol is raiding

>>3025630

Holodomor denying fags are clearly WNs and Putin cocksuckers

>>3025630
I have yet to see someone denying it, since even the Russian archives say there was a terrible famine.

>>3025630
I don't think anyone is denying the Holodomor, just saying that it was not a genocide and that the deaths are mostly attributed to famine.

>>3025630

>leftypol is raiding

I'm guessing they're behind all the non-ironic Mud Centered We Wuzzing? Either that or reddit supported by twitter.

The one that bothers me the most is the rape baby meme. A few hundred thousand invaders can't significantly alter the genetic composition of millions of people.

>>3025644
It was due to famine. Famine that was exasperated by Soviet policies focusing on Ukraine. Don't even get started on the political violence of the time period as well. Political violence that targeted enemies of the state, who coincidentally happened to be polish and Ukrainian national groups who wanted independence.

>>3025612
Civil War Lost Cause, Rape of Nanking, the Islamic Golden Age, Armenian Genocide maybe?

We Wuz Kangz/Hebrews/Mespos/Greeks/Romans/Injuns/Etc.

For whoever does it.

>>3025701
None of those are popular here, they're just made fun of all the time.

>>3025716

Outside of here?

>>3025725
Not really relevant to the thread about 4chan specifically.

The Crusades.

My first year at Uni our lecturer for Early Medieval Europe literally devoted a two hour lecture period to explain to any potential retards that the Crusades were defensive in nature and a retaliation to continual Islamic aggression.

He shot down all the claims of it being some kind of genocide or it being a bunch of bloodthirsty savages going on a looting spree. The majority of nobles and knights and even small-folk that went bankrupted themselves to go on Crusade.

And yet Anna from here Gender Studies course will try to spew her postmodernist revisionism of that period.

>>3025734
>the Crusades were defensive in nature and a retaliation to continual Islamic aggression
He doesn't sound like a professional then.

>>3025794

>Islam is a religion of peace

>>3025612
There are people on /pol that claim Earth is shaped like a basket ball ball

I wouldn't be such an unhappy loser if only I lived in medieval Constantinople.

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>the rise in global temperatures is unprecedented

>>3025932

Hello Trump voter.

>>3025901
And a strawman is just a strawman.

>>3025901
>>>r///eddit spacing

>>3025939

Don't you have a Dindu Lives Matter riot to attend?

>>3025612
Indigenous Americans were just a bunch of savages with no culture until the Spanish arrived

>>3025948
And a strawman is just a strawman.

>>3025940
Don't be mean, just because he probably couldn't hack it on r/AskHistorians or whatever doesn't mean he ran here hoping for validation like a newfag.

He could just be retarded.

>>3025957
>>3025940

You wouldn't non-ironically support We Wuz Kangz N Shieet would you?

>>3025974
And a strawman is just a strawman.

>>3025734
>the Crusades were defensive in nature and a retaliation to continual Islamic aggression.

The crusades being defensive in nature on;y works if you view the Greeks and Latins as being on the same side. When really if you look into it the two sides hated each other from almost the beginning. With the crusaders accusing the Greeks of being treacherous two-faced back-stabbers from their experiences with the Byzantine troops in Anatolia during the first crusade. And the Greeks never trusted the westerners from the moment the unexpectedly huge as fuck swarms of them reached Constantinople.

Hell, it seems like the Crusaders started liking their Muslim subjects more and more while hating the Greeks more and more as time went on. And that's not even figuring in the 4th crusade malarkey. Your professor sounds uninformed and opinionated, mate.

>>3025936
>I have no argument

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>global warming

>>3025612

Denial of the Southern Strategy

Lost Cause-ish Southern we-wuz-ism in general

Basically anything retarded southern baptist republicans believe has become fairly popular on 4chan.

>>3026011

How come?

>>3025612
Y'all don't know the simple joys of carefully picking apart the arguments of a lost cause of the south moron.

They're even bigger cockroaches than Turks because you can carefully demolish all of their arguments and there they'll be tomorrow, repeating the same tired, failed memes like "well the south only cared about states rights", which anyone who knows even a little bit about the American Civil War can respond with "state's right to do what?" And watch as they go full /pol/tard on you for daring to urinate facts and logic all over their idiot pity party.

>>3026039

Just to be contrary, mostly. But it has momentum, unfortunately, as pretend retards tend to attract the company of genuine retards who think they're in good company.

>>3025977
Nobody cares about your stupid (((logical fallacies)))

>>3025988
The First Crusade was a defensive pact between the Pope and the ERE that was also meant to try and heal the Great Schism. The next three Crusades were defensive wars to try and secure the Crusader States against Muslim reconquest. It's only after the sack of Constantinople and the end of the Fourth Crusade that the conflicts began to take an aggressive characteristic.

>>3026011
Because that's the most evil, destructive group of humans on the planet at the present moment.

Same how they pretend to be Nazis.

>>3025630
Obviously millions starved to death. The question is if it can be considered deliberate.

>>3026141
Thanks for caring.

>>3026145

>Soviets Dindu Nuffin

>>3025794

He's lecturing at university mate. You're shitposting on 4chan.

>>3026260

Name of professor and institute?

If name is sensitive, just school he lectured at?

>>3026095
It's funny seeing them try to deny the mass revisionism the South did throughout post Civil war period

>>3025623

The one we know of was fake. There was a real one earlier but all the footage and tech got destroyed in a building fire so they had to do it again.

>>3026145
It was a catastrophe of the Soviet economy and politics, that's for sure. They refused aid, for fuck's sake.

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>>3026216
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

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Seems that the Soviet preparing invasion thesis is pretty controversial here. On the Internet in general and in the academia too. Why does anyone get butthurt over this book anyway? Are they unironic tankies or what?

>>3026304

More than that, the Soviets exported 1.8 million tons of grain in 31. That much grain could feed every starving Ukranian/Kazakh.

>>3026313
>Why does anyone get butthurt over this book anyway?
It's wrong. Even Rezun himself told that he trusts his feelings more than the overwhelming evidence.

>Are they unironic tankies or what?
Tankies would love it to be true, though. M-R pact is the biggest black spot on the history of SSSR and if Rezun is correct, it would clean Russia as the Saviour of Europe.

>>3026276

St. Andrews

>>3025612
can somebody please help me because i feel like a total spaz when i say this but....

hasn't global warming been going on for thousands of years?
why do we seem to think we have the power to change this?

>>3026362

The one in scotland or the one in North Carolina?

Because the one in NC had it's accreditation revoked and had to merge with another college to piggyback on theirs.

I can not emphasize how shitty an American college has to be before it gets accreditation removed.

>>3026396

The one in Scotland. I didn't even know there was one in America.

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>>3026376
It's not only warming, as temperature changes are rather random. Climate change is a better term.

>why do we seem to think we have the power to change this?
We release shitton of gasses into atmosphere, even when compared to the amount that was there without our output. These gasses absorb high amount of EM radiation, transforming them into enrgy.

>>3025612

> China began growing because it became a capitalist country/ communism has never produced economic growth

Not a tankie, this just pisses me off because it's pure ideology not backed by fact. China is a one party communist state. There is no democracy. Party leaders control all levels of government. Almost all of the largest firms are state owned, and most large private firms have the government as their largest investor. Even the very rich can have their property stripped by the Party.

To be sure, China embraced a more decentralized economy on it's rise. It is more capitalist than it was by a wide margin, but calling it a capitalist country is ridiculous.

The USSR actually became more centrally controlled as it rapidly industrialized. This was accompanied by horrific atrocities (e.g. Hodolomor) but it actually did end up raising living standards and output.

A large part of the site seems unable to admit that a competing ideology could produce some success, which is funny because, if communism never works, even a little bit, how the fuck did the Cold War last so long?

The other connected revisionism that is amazingly prevalent is the rejection or minimization of atrocities carried out during colonial struggles. Yes, the USSR tortured its own civilians quite often right after WWII, the USA didn't, but France was torturing and raping quite a bit in Algeria...

>>3025644
Yes, intentionally starving people is not genocide.

>>3026376
>takes hundreds of millions of years for ancient swamps and coral reefs to turn into fossil fuel deposits
>humans have an industrial revolution and put millions of years worth of carbon into the air all at once
>?????????

Seriously though, I don't want to have to deal with the aftermath of Bangladesh flooding and putting two hundred million people out of their country. We have enough problems dealing with ten million Syrian refugees.

>>3025644

A famine in part caused by collectivization and in part caused by massive exports of grain to Russia from Ukraine, despite a bad harvest (again, due to both weather and forced collectivization).

Exporting food from a starving region is not easy. It took massive amounts of violence to do it.

The fatality rates in the era's gulags also made them essentially slave camps.

Genocide? Maybe not, because the goal wasn't to eradicate Ukrainians and Poles (although they were widely targeted because their loyalty was questioned), but it was certainly a mass atrocity.

Saying "well, they didn't want to kill that many, they just wanted to export all their food so that they could industrialize Russia more quickly," is sort of like excusing slavery because the slavers didn't really try to kill the slaves in the middle passage (they were valuable after all) it's just that shackeling people on top of each other like cargo and not feeding them tends to result in death.

>>3026490
The goal wasn't to eradicate an ethnicity, but to eliminate the kulak class. If religious genocide can exist surely class genocide can too.

The Ancient Egyptians not more or less being a bunch of Achmeds.

>>3026216
>Soviets have control over weather

>>3026490
>Slavery
Well duh, slavery was not genocide.

>>3026260
And he'd still be right. No major Crusade historian has ever claimed the Crusades were 'defensive in nature and a retaliation to continual Islamic aggression.' The only one who comes close is Thomas Madden, and he has only ever said as much in interviews with Catholic newspapers or as opinions in an introduction. Never once has he attempted to prove this however with an academic paper. Unless this lecturer has his own paper on the matter, he's just shooting from the hip. That or the anon is exaggerating what the professor was meaning to say, that the Crusades were not a reaction to the Arab Conquests but were ideologically based on an ideology of defending the body of Christ.

Islamic Golden Age denial

>>3026850

>Leftypol

English is a subset of French language.

>>3026935
>Muh strawman

>>3026947

>He was a good boy!

>>3026850
>Stalin not believing in science with agriculture and expecting magic delusional results leads to grain belt being bled dry

>Ukraine and all of the Eastern Soviet Union is that Grain Belt

What pisses me off about Ukrainians calling this genocide is that it's not genocide it's just a famine that affected the whole region.

If you're that obsessed with your race being special you're either a nazi or an American.

>>3026899
Tyermann certainly does, though I don't know if he qualifies as major.

>>3025612
The old "communism killed 100 million people and liberalism is the same as communism" meme.

>>3026966
Christopher Tyermann? I've read a few of his books, but I don't recall him ever saying something like that.

>>3026141
>le (((ebin))) (((meme)))
(((XDD!!!)))

>>3027010

Hopefully that wasn't a Christfag.

>>3027007
Yeah, Liberalism's killed way more people than that

>>3027008
New history of the crusades makes it fairly clear that the first crusade was defensive in nature, at least in the eyes of the crusaders.

>>3026145
In the 20th century? No, that didn't happen by accident. Even Ethiopia was the result of embargos and blockades. Even the worst crop devastation can be relieved with transportation networks of the age, cities of millions being entirely dependant on food from thousands of miles away, much as they are today. A major disaster like an earthquake or tidal wave might give you temporary starvation, but from ~1900 onward, whenever you see mass starvation for a period that long, there's politics or war involved.

>>3025951

That's objectively true though anon, sorry :(

>>3025643
No one denies there was a famine you retard. What people deny is that the government targeted the Ukraine with man made famine.

>>3027616

Hey there leftypol.

>>3027678

imagine being so deep down this retarded political rabbit hole that you'll actually defend millions being deliberately exterminated

Leftism... Not even once...

>>3027678
What the fuck are you saying you autistic shit. Suddenly throwing out meme replies doesnt win arguments you retarded faggot. Leftypol believes the opposite of what Im saying you retard.

>>3026342
>M-R pact is the biggest black spot on the history of SSSR

Fuck me I don't think any other country has so much competition in terms of black spots. They're just annoyed that it's so difficult to pretend that for them the war started in 1941 because no one wants to believe this bullshit.

>>3026295
You mean the federally sponsored and handled reconstruction?

Various shootings I guess. Anything related to space programs. We know basically all about them and there's not much else to be discovered and that includes the Soviet program (since the fall of USSR we've learnt about all the things they were hiding).

And now the flat earth theory (debunked in ancient times and empirically in 1958) although when its supporters show themselves here I think it's just people role playing to get the attention.

>>3026435
>how did the Cold War last so long
The Cold War literally lasted because the soviets got nukes

>>3026529
>class genocide can too
Or just remove their relationship to capital which was what happened.

What about the Polish Operation of NKVD. What was their problem?

>>3027240
It that's just it, he doesn't say the Crusades were a defense against Islamic aggression, but that the Crusaders believed their mission to be in defense of Christian purity. He neither condemns nor condones their theology or ideology.

>>3026142

Well, while not out-rite hostile to each other, the fact that the Crusaders came to the conclusion that the Greeks were not their friends and then set off to make their own kingdom rather than just hand off the captured territories back to the Byzantines must have really irked the Greeks.

I imagine that the existence of the Crusader states on "rightful" Roman clay must have been quite the middle finger to the Byzantine emperor, and a challenge to his legitimacy.

1. Niggers not being irrevalent before Muslim mass slavery.

2. The Ancient Jews being Achmeds like loads of Palestinians.

>>3029563
The situation after the Battle of Manzikert was very precarious for the Greeks. With most of Anatolia in Turkish hands there was no real way for the Emperor to assert any authority over Outremar.

>>3027029
nice meme

>>3027700
>le leftypol boogeyman

>>3025734
>Anna
What school? Western/KVCC?

>>3026303
Nah man, the theorists were right when they claimed that Kubrick directed it.

But his condition was that they film on location.

>>3029929
Most of Anatolia was not in Turkish hands, just some strategic cities that effectively cut off communications with the rest of the region. But it didn't affect communication with Outremer, which was by sea.

>>3027405
Nope. Actually Incas were superior to europeans.

>>3031455

>Failed to master metal
>Didn't master the wheel
>Didn't have a system of writing
>Lost to Spain

KANGZ.

"The Lend-Lease was never important to the Red Army" — /his/

>>3031621

You mean leftypol.

>>3027740
I look at the whole flat earther thing like this:
Almost all of them are trolls, like 99.5%. The ones who truly think that the earth is flat deserve my sympathy more then my spite.

>>3031621
I realized that any individual assesment of Lend Lease strongly correlates with either your dislike of communism, or your dislike of America.

>>3031816
This only applies to brainlets.

>>3025994
>hurrr fucking retard scientists dont know shit my fucking chart from /pol/ is better than decades of research.

>>3026039
Retarded counter culture. Think Emos except lonlier and memes.

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>>3031267

>>3031804
I thought I was the only one who could see that.

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Israelis not being mostly Levantine to Iranian with ancestral ties to the area.

>>3025612
That the Soviet Union didn't need Lend Lease.

>>3025612
Lend Lease was the only thing keeping the Soviet Union alive and they would have collapsed without it.

>>3032319
Noone says that though. They say they would have been destroyed and conquered by Nazi Germany without it.

>>3027733
you mean the federal fuunds given to state made education? you're not so deluded to tryn think you can lie about that? everyone knows education, and most of revisionism thus, with very little exception (no child left behind b.s.), is state purview

>>3026432
>rose from 0.03 to 0.04%
Truly groundbreaking.

>>3032324
what?

>>3026432
That's not a very large increase though.

>>3032577
Collapsed =/= conquered

>>3032448
In the whole fucking athmosphere. 0,01% of hundred of billions of tons is still a lot.

>>3032615
So what would happen if we increased the concentration of Nitrogen by 0.01%?

>>3025644

Why are people this retarded allowed on /his/. We need a retard proof test we can give to everyone.

>>3031605
>implying europeans mastered the metal
>implying europeans invented and developed the wheel
>writting
They were entering their bronze age.
>lost to spain
And you are losing against muslim peasants.

Incas were superior to europeans.

>>3032632
What's retarded about his post? Whether the Holodomor was a genocide is an ongoing debate among academic historians with the consensus probably leaning towards "not a genocide".

>>3032626
If you had some basic chemistry knowledge you would know that your question is stupid because you can't compare Nitrogen and Carbon dioxide.

>>3032448
>>3032600
>an increase in 25%
You guys realize that even small changes can have a big impact, right? There are artificial sweeteners that are 100,000x more powerful than sugar, just a single packet can sweeten an entire vat of diet soda. There are poisons and venoms where a single drop can kill you.

Before you go "muh anecdotes!" realize that your argument is "Small changes never matter." I refuted that all-encompassing statement by providing a counter-example, which is all that I must do. So now, your argument becomes "Climate change is a specific example of something in which small changes do not matter." That is a claim that will not only require evidence that supports it, but evidence that refutes the dominant body of climate change research, which indicates that small changes do matter.

inb4
>hurr I don't notice it getting any warmer so the empirical measurements must be wrong!!1!

>>3032665
If may be getting slightly warmer, but why should I care? I don't live on the coasts and my region has plenty of fresh water sources. Any climate disasters are unlikely to affect me.

Furthermore the scientists are saying it will take thousands of years to reverse the atmospheric changes. Why, then, are we wasting time after the fact "reducing emissions" when the logical thing to do is to prepare for the supposed disasters that are coming our way?

Of course the real answer is that there will be no grand catastrophes because global warming isn't as big a deal as they make out.

>>3032672
>If may be getting slightly warmer, but why should I care? I don't live on the coasts and my region has plenty of fresh water sources. Any climate disasters are unlikely to affect me.
>I shouldn't affect me at first so fuck it
fuck you honestly, also I hope you enjoy the millions of refugees that will eventually end up where you live because their land got fucked by climate change
and btw a pair of degrees do make a difference even if you live in a cold place with your AC


>Furthermore the scientists are saying it will take thousands of years to reverse the atmospheric changes. Why, then, are we wasting time after the fact "reducing emissions" when the logical thing to do is to prepare for the supposed disasters that are coming our way?
because reducing emissions can make a difference between a manageable disaster and some kind of apocalysis, and we are also preparing to incoming disasters


>Of course the real answer is that there will be no grand catastrophes because global warming isn't as big a deal as they make out.
It's already happening, we are alreading experiencing droughts that will end up killing agriculture in many regions, for example Syria is going through serious droughts since a bit before the revolts and war. Also there is a really huge ice sheet in Antartica that is about to break, revealing core parts that have been buried by other ice sheets for millions of years

>>3032672
>why should I care?
I live on the coast. When my shit is underwater, I'm coming for your shit, and I'm bringing 300,000 people, minimum.

>>3025612
>the filthy krauts deserve the blame for everything bad ever

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>>3025630

I'm about the opposite of a leftist but having done a lot of reading on the subject the current state of historiography kind of favours the holodomor denier.

(holodomor being the interpretation of the famine as a genocide, i.e. deliberate)

Wheatcroft and Davis' 2003 book 'Years of Hunger' was extremely rigorous and it changed everything. Even Robert Conquest, the man who introduced the Holodomor in historiography, denounced the interpretation of the 30s famine in Ukraine as a genocide.

Really, if anyone here has an opinion on Holodomor but is not aware of Wheatcroft and Davis he should frankly shut the fuck up.

>>3032300
Stormfront does the same thing, what's your point

>>3032672
Fun-fact: Worst case scenario of Climate change is death of Phytoplankton, which would significantly reduce the amount of oxygen in atmosphere.
t. UN commision for green shit

Even though that's highly improbable, Climate change affects oceans much more than it does land. The warming itself, acidification, reduction of solubility of oxygen and phosphorus etc.

Holocaust denial isn't a 4chan thing it's a stormfront thing. Fuck off back to /leftypol/ if you're trying to be sneaky.

>>3032921
what about agriculture, climate change would probably put in danger the global food production

>>3032887
>le stormfront boogeyman

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>>3032939

>>3032880
>(holodomor being the interpretation of the famine as a genocide, i.e. deliberate)

It's not binary. The genocide interpratation is reserved for Ukrainian nationalists, since it would imply they aimed to eradicate Ukrainians. It could still be a deliberate atrocity and not a genocide.

>>3032936
Sure, but it would only drastically reduce human population in Africa and Asia. There are much wilder rides in the park.

>go to http://www.4chan.org/leftypol/
>404 Not Found
Not falling for the poltard meme again.

>>3032941
Leftypol does the same thing, what's your point

>>3032976
Actually it's reddit, not leftypol

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>>3032979
what's the difference

>>3032997
Leftypol isn't full of tankies who are afraid to say faggot and retard

>>3033116
sjw and liberals are not communists neither anarchists, even if they claim so

>>3033128
I'm talking about places like /r/socialism, /r/communism, /r/FULLCOMMUNISM and /r/anarchism

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>>3032641

>implying europeans mastered the metal

Considering it was Euros who mastered plate amor, advanced firearms and cannons, they kinda did compared to the Redskins.

>implying europeans invented and developed the wheel

Europe did far more with it than all of the Americas before Columbus.

>writting

Yeah, that shows how behind the Redskins are.

>They were entering their bronze age.

And what was stopping them from starting much earlier?

>And you are losing against muslim peasants.

You mean how Achmeds can't even drive out a bunch of Jews they outnumber? And Muslims are actually notoriousnfor their laughable military record in modern times?

>Incas were superior to europeans.

Name a significant Inca for actual science and philosophy.

Also, you're typing in English and using technology invented by a European man. I can't tell if you're a We Wuzzing Beaner or a cuck.

>>3033172
>development
Hadn't it been for the anatolian and egyptian babysit, those cultures would be shitholes.
>no wheel
>how behind the redskins are
Amerindians reached America 15000 years after eurangutans settled on yurop.
>muslim peasants
Yep, just look at your decaying population and replacement on yurop.
>science and philosophy
They were entering the bronze age. Are you retar- oh yeah, you are a eurangutan.
>typing in english
Communication with subhumans.
>beaner
And now I know you are a shart chimp.

Incas were superior to europeans. Deal with it.

>>3033196
not him but you can't claim that Incas where superior if they were still in the bronze age while the spanish where way more advanced than that

>>3033196
also I'm really assuming you're baiting because of

>muh muslims are remplacing europeans

>>3033201
>less time to develop
>less cultures to trade with
>isolation between continents south-north
>harsh climate which wiped out coastal cities
>no anatolian, egyptian cultures that babysit them (horses, iron, civilization, writting)
>yet, reached early bronze age in less time than eurangutans
Umm...
>>3033207
And """"american"""" eurangutans are being replaced by mexican mutts. You have to go back to yurop.

USA is becoming United Hispanic States in less than 50 years from now. Prepare your luggage.

>>3025612
People don't reject global warming. They reject the man made nonsense.

>>3025951
They had a culture it was just neolithic.

>>3026850
>take all the grain from peasant villages
>be surprised when they start dropping dead

>>3025734
>>3025988

1/

That they were defensive is indeed only partly true.

But that doesn't mean there isn't something fundamentally wrong with the historiography of the crusades. Specifically that they are viewed as a unique event. An event which was exceptionally reprehensible from an ethical perspective. Even in my own catholic country, which coincidentally provided the first king of Jerusalem, people are thought to look down on the Crusaders.

Was the aim, the conquest of Iudea, exceptionally wrong? Certainly not. What could possibly be exceptionally wrong about conquering some Islamic kingdoms in the Middle Ages? They are no more wrong as the Reconquista. No more wrong as the battles against the Ottomans and the liberation of the Balkans and Greece. No more wrong as the conquests of Egypt, Syria, Libya, Mesopotamia, Spain, etc... by Muslim Caliphates. Should we ask the Muslims for an apology then? No, we may have condemned wars of conquest today, but seen in its context, there is nothing that warrants this particular conquest to receive exceptional status.

Is it then the way these crusaders behaved? Obama went as far to compare them with IS. Well that is absolutely disgusting. If anything in our history is comparable to IS it is to be found in the religious wars of the 16th century, events like the Munster Rebellion and Beeldenstorm. I'm sure he'll find out about them if he'd only traced the roots of his own religion. But what does he know, he only reads what historians write.

>>3033218
>a bronze age civilization is superior to age of discoveries/renaissance colonial empire
I really can't understand you

and you shouldn't assume that I'm from the US or that I don't like the idea of latinos taking over

2/

Part of crusader historiography, still repeated today, has been written by protestant historians in the 18th and 19th century who were clearly motivated in making the Catholic church look as evil as possible. And they portrayed the Crusaders as uniquely murderous. Kill first ask questions later. But this is an exaggeration. Crusaders were not known for being exceptionally cruel, hateful or highly intolerant. They were warriors bent on conquest, just like the rest of the cast in that particular era.

Isolated events like the murder of Jews were instantly condemned by the Pope, and in many cases done by vigilantes. But the historiography dies a very slow death. But still, these kind of assertions are easily disproven, which they have been in the last decades. I don't believe it's accusations of cruelty that make the Crusades so politicized today.


The more important group of historians were not the protestant writers, but the historians, mostly anglophone, who wrote during the 'enlightenment era' in the 19th and first half of the 20th century. People like Voltaire and Gibbon who interpreted the crusades as a form of medieval barbarism and religious fanaticism not fitting of the modern enlightened era. Steven Runciman could be added to this group as well.

The crusades were portrayed as matters of papal geopolitical strategizing, European realpolitik and pure materialistic greed. Unless murder was involved, then religious fanaticism raised its ugly head.

>>3026095
Ah yes the "it was all about slavery" meme.

>>3033245

3/

I don't think these historians emphasized geopolitical and economical motivations just because they wanted to minimize the influence of religion. They simply did not understand the effect religion could have on our medieval ancestors. They could not fathom that thousands of people would leave their material possessions and become a soldier of Christ, for faith alone.

But without that crucial aspect, the crusades are not unique at all. In all other aspects the crusades are just a series of wars against the Moors of which there had been hundreds before and there would be hundreds to come.

Faith is the only aspect that makes the Crusades so special and formative. They were unique in that they roused people to fight for the glory of God. Our ancestors liberated the most important city of Christianity, struck at the heart of one of the strongest empires in the world, and got away with it. They couldn't finish what they started but did they come close.

And that's probably what makes modern man so afraid of the crusades. That religious people could achieve something like that. I'm not a religious man myself, but I believe this is how peoples' little ideological brains work.

Anyhow, then the post colonialist and anti imperialists historians pointed their guns at the crusaders, and, unfortunately without the historical rigour of the enlightenment historians, the crusaders became once more the target.

The silliest part of the story might be that before European historians told the Arabs about the crusades, these people didn't give a flying fuck about it. For them it was an insignificant blip in their history, which ended up in another Muslim victory anyhow. The guy who made it happen, Saladin, would probably have descended into oblivion if it wasn't for European historiography.

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>>3033243

>>3033246
>I really can't understand you
Analysis of relative comparation between isolated environments is really complicated for inferior minds.

>>3033257
but that's unrelated to your first statement, the spanish were way superior to Incas, it doesn't matter who reached faster the bronze age

>>3025988
they were defensive in nature at first. perhaps up to the third. after that the crusades lost almost all meaning.

People also tend to put the crusades for the holy land in the same bag as the holy wars waged on the pagan slavs and baltics, which were 100% aggresive

>>3025701
Do niggers claim to be Romans now?

>>3025734
>>3025794
But they were a response to Islamic agression.

>>3033270
maybe, if you consider Italians to be niggers

>>3032947

It's definitely an atrocity. But it is not hard to prove that the Soviet leaders, cruel and opportunistic as they were, were surprised by the famine and did what they could to end the famine.

Except asking for aid from the world. They'd rather had no one knowing about it so nobody thought they looked weak.

Also they sacrificed the peasantry in favour of the citiy dwellers and the industrial workers.

>>3033264
>it doesn't matter the development rate
Hehe

Incas were superior to europeans. They were genocided and the vestiges of their culture was destroyed, fortunately some of the chronicles are still here.

Keep trying, subhuman.

>>3026001
I think the "the parties flipped" nonsense is much worse.

>>3026011
And what is that?

>>3026432
Rise in temperature doesn't I like The View call Wright call Wright correlate in rise in co2 emissions.

>>3033280
ya me cansé de esta conversación sin sentido, que te vaya bien peruanito

>>3033310
Muere, congolombiano.

>>3026458
>Believing wild predictions of future catastrophe

The same people making those predictions said Miami would be under water 7 years ago.

Also if you don't want refugees just don't let them in. It's only a problem with you roll out the red carpet like the idiots in the eu did.

>>3033314
jajajaja
sigues fallando :^)

>>3026904
Islamic golden age theory.

>>3033319
Verguenzolano?
Si ni siquiera perteneces a la gran Colombia, no mereces que te responda.

>>3027710
No they don't. They whitewash the crimes of Marxism.

>>3027616
Only idiots deny the Soviets didn't Target them.

>>3033317
>what is the right to move between states

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>>3033327
no soy sudaca

>>3033280
>>They wuz Superior.

>>3033218
Don't worry. When whites aren't on charge anymore we'll take our money, knowledge and experience and leave.

>>3033350
Bye bye, chimps.

>>3027029
Leftism

>>3025612
anglo superiority

>>3033250
Very goodness posts. Thank you anon.

>>3033250
>Faith is the only aspect that makes the Crusades so special and formative. They were unique in that they roused people to fight for the glory of God. Our ancestors liberated the most important city of Christianity, struck at the heart of one of the strongest empires in the world, and got away with it. They couldn't finish what they started but did they come close.
>And that's probably what makes modern man so afraid of the crusades. That religious people could achieve something like that. I'm not a religious man myself, but I believe this is how peoples' little ideological brains work.
Religion wasn't what was unique about the Crusades. Religion was pervasive in all Medieval wars, and even in Classical ones. Past historians emphasized geopolitical or economic motivations not out of shame but to connect then current trends in colonialism and Romanticism with past glories and some innate entrepreneurial spirit of the European. In short, to extol a nationalist spirit over one of pan-European religious brotherhood.

When the Crusades were depicted negatively, it wasn't religion but fanaticism that was attacked, an idea of primitive religion that was hot-blooded and merciless which clashed with more modern views of religiosity. In proposing geopolitics, past historians were attempting to absolve their ancestors of the stain of the fanatic, not religion altogether.

Also, Jerusalem was not the most important city in Christendom at that time, not physically or geographically, and plenty of non-Cluniac monks had little regard for the mission to take it when the spiritual Jerusalem was far more important. Plus, it want the heart of any strong empire, if one even existed in the Muslim Middle East then.

>>3026362
Smo?

>>3032672
>If may be getting slightly warmer, but why should I care? I don't live on the coasts and my region has plenty of fresh water sources. Any climate disasters are unlikely to affect me.
Congrats, this is the most imbecilic post I've ever seen on /his/. I swear you're the kind of idiot who says "it doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter" until it does start to affect you. Then suddenly "what the fuck, why didn't anyone do something about this while we had the chance".

>>3032936
>what about agriculture, climate change would probably put in danger the global food production
This isn't too well-known at the time. Climate change would definitely affect food production as it is now, and it would definitely contribute to desertification which eliminates all food production in the regions affected, but it could also open up regions that were previously unable to sustain agriculture in Russia, Scandinavia, Canada, and Alaska. Regardless, there are few areas in the world, if any, that produce just enough food to feed it's population. Everywhere either over-produces, and exports luxury foodstuffs, or under-produces, and requires food aid.

>>3033618

I agree that Jerusalem was never a politically or economically important center. It's a symbolic center. The actual center of every Medieval world map.


>When the Crusades were depicted negatively, it wasn't religion but fanaticism that was attacked, an idea of primitive religion that was hot-blooded and merciless which clashed with more modern views of religiosity. In proposing geopolitics, past historians were attempting to absolve their ancestors of the stain of the fanatic, not religion altogether.

I probably generalized the motivations of historians, but people like Gibbon or Voltaire weren't exactly sympathetic to any kind of religion, fanatical or not. And why bend the truth, why invent a narrative of exaggerated cruelty, if the aim is to absolve religion from fanaticism?


>Religion wasn't what was unique about the Crusades. Religion was pervasive in all Medieval wars, and even in Classical ones.

I don't think that's true. There is something uniquely religious about the Crusades and the way it inspired people from all over Europe compared to other conflicts. Of course religion always played a role in every Medieval conflict. But not like the crusades. Not even the Islamic Jihads I think. The only comparable event in Europe would be the protestant religious wars, at least parts of it.

Historian Thomas Madden says that we never took the Crusaders at their word. The idea that people would leave everything behind for a place in heaven has just become too foreign to us, but that is what people back then believed.

The crusades were an extremely formative even for Western Medieval Society. And if it is not religion that makes the crusades unique, then what is it? What is it that makes the crusades so extensively studied and so extensively politicized?

>>3034906
That symbolic center was just that, however. It wasn't so much the city proper as what the region's geography represented to Medieval Latin Christians - an enormous relic. If it were possible for the Crusaders to just uproot the Holy Land and take it with them, they would not have hesitated to do so, because it was not the location that mattered but its role in their conceptions of absolution via pilgrimage (i.e. the journey, not the destination, which is partly why so many Crusaders who gave their lives and wealth to go to Jerusalem readily came back home).

As for past historians, they tended to have different motivations for why they wrote the way they did. It's not a great idea, but one could divide them into two camps: those who wished to rebrand the Crusades as a national endeavor - hence the revival of Crusader imagery and Romanticism among 19th century Imperialists in the Middle East - or as some sort of realpolitik by the Catholics in their supposed never-ending quest to subjugate secular (really Protestant) rule. The latter more than the former were the work of poets, philosophers, and politicians rather than historians however.

As for religiosity, I go back to my point in the first paragraph. It's not that the Crusades were uniquely religious, it's that they were religious in a unique way (whereas most other wars were religious in altogether more mundane ways). What makes the Crusades stand out - at least before the Holy Leagues against the Ottomans - was their obsession with spiritual geography. It's why Crusading fervor so easily went hand in hand with anti-Jewish pogroms or could just as easily target excommunicates, apostates, and heretics despite none of them having much to do with Jerusalem. It wasn't enough for a Crusade to be just in the Roman sense of the word as other European wars or even Muslim Jihads tended to be, it needed to touch upon themes of cleansing the promised land by the chosen (not necessarily Judea).

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>>3033224
Hi, let me introduce you to a Senator that sadly represents my state. Pic related.

>>3035301
Jim Inhoffe, Tom Coburn, and Mary Falin are all complete fuckwits and I'm glad I escaped Oklahoma when I did.

>>3025612
>Moon landing was fake and america won ww1 memes
Well, America certainly didn't lose WW1

>>3035518
Someday I'll get outta this shithole too.

>>3025649
Genghis Khan himself affected it, why would a thousand invaders not?

>>3033243
Hm... It's almost like other people need the grain as well.

>>3025936
Hello nigger.

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>>3032641
The most advanced wheel was found in Slovenia even before sumeria how many times are you going to post the objectively false statement go outside get sun Julio I know you want to be white but stay shitty

>>3033196
Retard.

>>3033224
I can tell you don't know anything about climate science, so honestly why do you think that.

>>3037129
Brilliant argument there!

>>3037159
>so honestly why do you think that.
Please, tell me why do you think it's not man-made, and where the CO2 we pump into the atmosphere goes.

>>3036783
>1 point
Eurangutan """"""""reasoning"""""""".

>>3034756

We will trade southern Russia and the Mississippi river valley for muskeg.

Great.

>>3037223
t.literal subpiss

>>3037360
Fuck off subhuman, wheels were useless without horses or high-power animals.

Incas were superior to europeans.

>>3037341
Any change in global temperature that renders major agricultural regions completely desert will be enough to heat up muskeg to the point where decomposition can begin.

>>3026376
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/how-we-know-global-warming-is-real/

>>3037367
>Incas were superior to europeans
>because they didn't have horses, cows or iron smelting which was discovered due to luck so we can't make accurate comparisons
how do you measure superiority then

we have to decide who is superior and who is inferior so we know which race to genocide when the world gets overpopulated

>>3037159
>>3037166
Waiting

>>3037439
Higher development rate and organization relatively compared to early bronze age shitopeans.

>>3026141
>logic is jewish
really makes you think....

>>3025612
>Umayyads committed no genocides
>the Turks committed no genocides
>the Jannissaries were non-slaves

>>3038446
t. Hernandez Lopez
Stay mad faggot

>>3032939
"oh no! Our shameless and quite obvious shilling has been called out yet again!"

the funny thing is that /leftypol/yps are controlled useful idiot.s

>>3033196
Dude, for the love of god please stop. I love pre-Columbian civilizations, but pretending they were superior to Eurasian civilizations beggars belief. They did a lot of cool stuff, and who knows with some more time would have done more cool stuff. But they didn't. They got BTFO quite unfortunately. But you know what? they held out for a pretty long time and put up some outstanding resistance. By no means superior though.

>>3033338
>Where do rights come from?

>>3038653
Read this, faggot.>>3038446
>>3038484
>t
hehe
Eurangutan subhuman.

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>>3037367
t.subspec chimp

>>3038948
Don't reply me, subhuman.

>>3038991
t.angered sub

>>3039006
Your race is dying hehe

You'll know what's real anger when you are the last one of your chimp kind.

>>3039017
t.angered extinct spec

>>3026145
I thought they had grain silos filled up everywhere but there and the only reason people died was because of logistics being denied.

>>3033265
>>3025988
>>3025734

Requesting books on the Northern Crusades. I didn't even know it was a thing until studying Estonian history.