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Was lethality the rapier's biggest drawback?
In firearms terminology, "ice picking" is when a bullet passes straight through the body without really doing all too much damage, leaving a wound that isn't much wider than the bullet itself.
When that happens, the target might keep fighting for quite a while, even if he succumbs to his wounds eventually.
With a rapier and similar thin thrusting swords, I imagine there would be a real risk of getting killed after hitting your opponent, even if you totally run him through. I assume that the wound resulting from a rapier thrust would probably less lethal (at least in the short term) than an ice picking rifle bullet.
Of course with the lack of medical expertise of the time, even a crummy little wound would eventually kill. Perhaps that made them a good deterrent, a sort of way of saying "bitch I don't care if neither of us get out of this alive"?
It makes me think that a good cut-and-thrust sword would make a far more effective self-defence tool, as a simple cut to the hand/arm would be a much safer bet when it comes to stopping an assailant trying to kill you, and a broader blade would create significantly gnarlier stab wounds.
Anyway, are there any historical records stating such things, or am I totally wrong here?
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>>3013065
You imagine wrong. A sword blade, even a very narrow one, does vastly more damage than a bullet.
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>>3013087
Explain
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>>3013096
More mass = greater damage to tissue.
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>>3013065
If rapiers are less lethal it's probably a design feature not a drawback.
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>>3013087
Sheath your katana, friend. A bout of buckshot to the chest or a round of hollow point 7,62 is gonna be much worse than a thin rapier stab all other things equal. If you get hit with something insane like .50 cal then you might as well have just tied fireworks to yourself.
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>>3013105
Force = Mass × Acceleration, you turbo nigger.
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>>3013065
A thrust into the face is obviously gonna kill him and so is a strike that enters the heart, aorta, throat or spine. Besides that puncturing organs like the liver, pancreas and stomach can be so debilitating you opponent is out of combat rather quick.
That said period sources do occasionally mention people going on with a duel despite being thrust multiple times. The location of the wound is of paramount importance.
A debate about cut vs. thrust has been raging for ages but many people do indeed agree that thrusts put someone out of combat quicker than slashes.
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>>3013096
You now realize that a rapier's debole is something like half an inch wide. That's .50cal, for comparison.
And a rapier's point is still connected to your hand, meaning every slightest movement you make is widening the injury you've caused.
Rapier thrusts were considered nasty injuries.
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>>3013133
For your reference here is someone who sustained multiple slashing wounds yet not being disabled. A thrust through any of the large arteries in the torso would have bled him gotten him unconscious in seconds or minutes.
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>>3013144
>yet not being disabled
In the sense that they're alive and still standing, sure. I kinda doubt he's got any mobility in his right arm tho, unless the vertical cut is much shallower than it looks.
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>>3013087
By what mechanism?
A good rifle bullet cuts, tears and smashes its way through flesh and bone. They leave massive cavities in the body.
A slender sword blade just creates a thin hole. Even if the edges were to somehow create massive internal bleeding, that wouldn't have an immediate effect on the target.
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>>3013149
His deltoid is not wounded nor his bicep and tricep. It's possible mobility is reduced to a degree due to intense pain but the muscles needed for arm movement aren't severed.
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>>3013141
Not that guy but comparing gunshot wounds with sword wounds is pretty retarded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock_(firearms)
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>>3013165
>comparing gunshot wounds with sword wounds is pretty retarded
That's kind of my point anon. You can't really compare a blade stuck in your guts with a bullet overpenetrating. Not only a blade is much bigger than most bullets, it also moves around due to its connection to your arm and the victim's movements.
A bullet injures in completely different ways, it's an idiotic comparison.
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>>3013065
I can't provide any sources at the moment, but on average, thrusts are more lethal than cuts. Obviously if you cut a major artery or someone's head off, that person will die. But the failure rate of cuts is much higher than thrusts even with clothes. Thick clothing is surprisingly good protection for cuts. With a sharp point, it's much easier to just run someone through with less effort. Here's some good videos on the subject of thrust and cut.
Actually, Matt provides some sources on thrust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c38zGxQxYok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk9ryKzLp8k
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>>3013065
>>3013308
There's also this.
"In France during the reign of Henry IV, more than 4,000 French "gentlemen" lost their lives in an eighteen-year period (5). During the reign of Louis XIII it is reported that the ordinary conversation in the morning was: "Do you know who fought yesterday?" and after dinner. "Do you know who fought this morning?" In a twenty-year period 8,000 pardons were issued for murders associated with duels (6). The nobility insisted on fighting over the most trivial issues, such as disputes at playing cards or dog fights, and hardly any were left who had not been involved in a duel as a primary or secondary participant."
Henry IV and Louis XIII ruled from about 1589-1643 which is the time period in which the rapier was very common (mid 16th-17th centuries). The smallsword evolved from the rapier in the late 17th century (probably France). Rapiers are nasty weapons. They're meant to kill unarmored opponents in duels or self-defense.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/16003.htm
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>>3013115
Which 7.62?
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>>3013065
Elizabethan English sword master George Silver wrote about this in his Paradoxes of Defense; he was very critical of the rapier for resulting in duels where both combatants died (as fighters can continue to fight after sustaining a lethal wound).
There are tons to historical records on this; Alfred Hutton is a good starting point.
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>>3013105
Linear momentum = mass x speed
Force = How fast grows momentum
Higher speeds can amount for huge forces
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>>3013469
Silver and Hutton are top tier sources.
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>>3013896
They seem like the exact same thing.
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>>3013896
Somewhat, yes. English military sabre was mostly based on backsword techniques, so they have a lot in common.
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