Why didn't the Classical Greeks do weapon training or any

They probably did. What makes you think they didn't?

>>2975407
They were hyperboreans, it came naturally to them

It was before they patched the character creator

>>2975435
I have come across more than a few of these [hoplomachia instructors] in actual operations, and I can see their quality. Indeed, we can estimate it offhand: for, as though it were of set purpose, not one of these experts in arms has ever yet distinguished himself in war. And yet in all the other arts, the men who have made a name are to be found among those who have specially pursued one or other of them; while these persons, apparently, stand out from the rest in this particularly hapless fate of their profession. (...)
Hence, as I said at the beginning, whether [hoplomachia] be an accomplishment, and one of but little use, or not an accomplishment, but only supposed and pretended to be such, it is not worth the trouble of learning it. For indeed I hold that if a man who was a coward believed that he possessed it, his only gain would be in rashness, which would make his true nature the more conspicuous; while if he were brave, people would be on the look-out for even the slightest mistake on his part, and he would incur much grievous slander; for the pretension to such skill arouses jealousy, so that unless a man be prodigiously superior to the rest in valor he cannot by any means escape being made a laughing-stock through professing to be so skilled.
-- Plato, Laches 182e-184c

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>>2975407
The fuck you talking about? They did, as a cultural imperative. Both armed and unarmed. Some city-states more than others, but in general, it was part of a classical education and regularly wrote about. They even made a major sporting event that revolves around such training: The Olympics.

And your picture makes reenactor Jesus cry

>>2975476
That's not the same as training with your weapon doe. IIRC there's no actual proof of ancient greeks doing any sort of drills or weapons training aside from Sparta and they didn't train with weapons.

>those ill-fitting linothorax

absolutely disgusting

>>2975503
Im with the tripfag. Athens has a great many records of required militia training, and phallanx combat in general requires ton of training.

>>2975476
Also see:
>>2975473
Here Plato dismisses people who do weapons training as hopeless.

>>2975503

that's the genius of the phalanx. It relied far less on individual prowess and far more on the cohesion of the unit. The side that lost was the side that lost it's nerve and ran first. Battle casualties were few; casualties after a rout could be great. In the heyday of the phalanx clashes even the routing side got off fairly easy, because they could throw down the heavy shield and spear and make their getaway into the hills unencumbered, while the heavy hoplites that had triumphed would keep their equipment and be very unsuited to pursuit. Hence the Spartan injunction: come back with your shield, or on it.

Classical Greek clashes in the good ol' days before, say, the Peloponessian war when things got ugly and uncivilized were meant to decide political and border disputes with a MINIMUM of bloodshed. There was no real incentive to annihilate your foes from the city on the other side of the hill, that spoke the same language as you, and worshipped the same Gods as you. It was sort of like a very high stakes sporting event, meant to settle a dispute, not to destroy your foes who were after all very much like you.

Obviously this began to change as warfare was refined and innovations like peltasts were introduced. It's a major part of the history of Greek warfare, the development of light-armed troops and formations (like the deep formations of Epominandas) which were examples of a new way of thinking, a shift toward total warfare and the outright destruction of your enemies, rather than merely driving your cousins off the field so you could erect a trophy of victory and shame them into compliance. Very few died in clashes of Phalanx. Many more began to die when javelins and sling bullets and arrows began to fly around, and many more still when heavy cavalry began to be employed decisively by the likes of Philip II.

>>2975522
>Here Plato dismisses people who do weapons training as hopeless.
This retard can't read, can he?

>>2975522
Actually he not only tells Athenian generals not to bother with training at all and instead rely on valor.
Here he says that a coward trained in arms would only show rashness and make his cowardly nature stand out even more.
He also says that the brave man trained in arms would be under more scrutiny by his fellows and be on watch for any mistake he makes. He also says that it would incur slander and jealousy.
He ends it by saying such men, unless having superior valor, would end up as the laughing stock for claiming to be skilled in arms.

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>>2975516
I know, right?

>>2975522
Socrates wrote on several occasions of the necessity of military training, as he himself served the Athenian army, with two years of training. Both Xenophon and Plato (who himself was a student of Socrates) wrote of Socrates time as a soldier, and his opinion on the classical training regime favorably. Plato is a chump.

It should also be mentioned that nearly almost all their neighbors (Egyptians, Latins, Etruscans etc) had codified fencing and training systems as well.

>>2975550
kek can you read?
>not one of these experts in arms has ever yet distinguished himself in war.
Here he's talking about haplomachia instructors. I'm assuming based on the context hoplomachia is some sort of weapons training. Plato completely dismisses it and says it's not worth learning.

>>2975553
But what kind of regime was it? Was it like a fitness regime? Because from the sources that I'm seeing it looks like weapons training was the subject of mockery.

“That means that it is a long march for our city to perfection. For when will Athenians show the Lacedaemonian reverence for age, seeing that they despise all their elders, beginning with their own fathers? When will they adopt the Lacedaemonian system of training, seeing that they not only neglect to make themselves fit, but mock at those who take the trouble to do so? "
Xenophon, Memorabilia 3.5.15

"And so is their lawgiver, through fear lest these training-bouts may appear ridiculous to some, to refrain from laying down laws whereby he will ordain field-operations, of which the minor kind, without heavy arms, will take place daily, if possible,—and to this end both the choristry and all the gymnastic shall be directed,—while the others, as a major kind of gymnastics in full armor, he shall order to be held at least once a month? "
Plato Laws 830d

Here's some other source explicitly saying they did not train

"Where our rivals from their very cradles by a painful discipline seek after manliness, at Athens we live exactly as we please, and yet are just as ready to encounter every legitimate danger."
Thucydides 2.39.1

"No such group training or competition now exists in any city-state at all, except maybe in a very small way."
Plato, Laws 831b

It appears to me the ancient greeks had a disdain for military training.

>>2975613

Perhaps you've hit then on why every city-state and her phalanx feared the Spartans, for the disdained exactly the kind of disciplined training in the art of cut and thrust that made the Spartans an unstoppable force for so long. They sneered, but they feared those whose thrust was strong and true.

You must not forget that the authors were certainly not above sour-grapes dismissal of the kind of training that made an army great. The Greek citizens were fiercely proud and independent, and there just was no telling them anything. They might disdain weapons training and try to justify that fact, when the reality was that those who did not disdain it, like the Spartans, would crush them time again in the field and were so feared that no phalanx dared come to grips with them.

Consider your sources, and consider their motivations,.

>>2975473

And WTF would Plato know about warfare?

Also, one doesn’t have to tbe best at something to be a good teacher / instructor on the subject and in fact, I’ve found in the machining industry that those who are the most skilled machinists, tend to be utterly incapable of training a newbie.

>>2975768
It's not only plato, lad.
See:
>>2975613
Aside from the Spartans it appears that the rest of the Greeks did not train their hoplites.

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>>2975773
>>2975653
>make fun of people who train
>constantly get beaten by them
What did Greece mean by this?

>>2975407

>those sandals on the third guy

>>2975435
They quite literally didn't.

>>2975407
Because Arete cannot be taught. You are born with it or not, and the same was applied to things like swordsmanship:
Boys simply naturally knew how to use the swords, and those who didn't, didn't.

>>2975553
And they're universally speaking of training the phalanx and for the phalanx, not for individual skill at arms.

>>2975785
They'd literally just justify it as "they were born that way."

>>2975773
They trained their hoplites, but only insofar as they needed to be able to function in the phalanx, not to better their skills in individual combat. That was something you learned from your male relatives growing up, and from comrades when in times of war.

This, incidentally, was and still is the norm for most societies.

The only difference now is that we pretend that all armies are trained simply because they are paid.

>>2975516
The only one it doesn't fit is that lanklet on the left, the rest are just fat.

Probably completely unrelated question, but when did slings stop being used and bows started coming in?

>>2975613
No wonder they got their asses blown by Macedonians.

>>2976224
The third guy's gear looks to be the most accurate, although they are all "farbies," in historical reenactment terms. They could all improve by not using modern footwear, and buying replicas of ancient ones, as well as tunics and no trousers for the guys on the left.

>>2975613

The Greeks were straight up amateurs when it came to warfare. They had no concept of tactics or strategy, and siege was a completely alien idea. The fact that they were able to resist the Persian invasion is more of a testament to the decline of the Persian war-machine than a superiority in arms by the Greeks.

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Can somebody answer why the greeks didn't make their armor go below their nuts?

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>>2975785
>Implying that doesn't still happen.

>>2976997
Tactical fellation

>>2976710
Sounds like they valued valor over drill and skill at arms. Kinda goes against the notion that they were highly trained warriors

>>2976997
Shields and grieves.

>stand in a line and poke someone's shield with a pointy stick so they can't get too close
Doesn't require training. Warfare back then was about endurance, about who can do this the longest before one side gets too tired and wants to go home. Kind of like a staring contest.

>>2978444
Yup and Greeks had a big hard on for training strength and endurance through gymnasium. They had plenty of different regional games besides the Olympics.

>>2978433
But like a couple inches wouldn't hurt.

>>2976401

Oh my god yes they trained

Fuck off with this cringe

>>2978982
But anon we have actual sources were they said they don't and sources where they mocked hoplite instructors.

>>2978982
Period sources flat out mock the idea of training. Fuck off.

>>2975768
>And WTF would Plato know about warfare?

he literally fought in the Peloponnesian war

>>2975473

he's not saying "training for war is stupid and pointless" he's saying it's retarded to try to do it as your profession because even if you're really skilled at the drilling and practice, it doesn't translate into valor or into doing well in actual combat, and that if you become an expert everyone will judge the shit out of your combat performance.

he goes on to say that if a cowardly man had (or thought he had) mastered hoplomachia, he might just think he's top shit and try to do something rash only to bitch out halfway and be exposed as a pussy, or that a brave guy who had done the same would be judged by everyone and mocked if he ever wasn't perfect in executing any part of what he's trained for. Plato basically says it's a useless thing to view "gud at hoplomachia" as some kind of profession, you should be adequately prepared for war but not make the preparation your whole deal, because nobody gives a shit, every other dude can phalanx well enough and hold down a real job, you should too.

tl;dr you couldn't chisel "hoplomachia expert" onto your resume and get taken seriously in the job agora

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>>2975653
>every city-state and her phalanx feared the Spartans

>>2980791
ayyy lmao

>>2979149
>>2979487
They might have mocked it, but the training had to happen for it to be mocked

>>2975407
They did you absolute loser, gumnasions didn't only have a task to practice sports but also to teach how to become a good citizen in the Greek poleis and army training et cetera

>>2982288
Can you back that up? Because I cited actual sources stating otherwise.

>>2980786
Except he did. Hoplomachia literally means armed combat and it's more or less hoplite training.
Here he literally says it's a skill not work learning. From the quote
>Hence, as I said at the beginning, whether [hoplomachia] be an accomplishment, and one of but little use, or not an accomplishment, but only supposed and pretended to be such, it is not worth the trouble of learning it.
The ancient Greeks in general placed no value in drill or hoplite training. Except for the Spartans but they did not practice hoplomachia. They put more emphasis in fitness and valor.
Despite what Rome Total War may tell you, the Greek hoplite was unorganized and untrained.

>>2982864
Well sources, was taught this at uni this semester in Classical antiquity

>>2983258
But where's the sources, my man?
I'm just saying from what I've read the ancient Greeks just didn't like being told what to do and most of them did not develop the mindset needed for a proper military tactics. Apparently being told what to do was something they were strongly against. Here's an expert from a revolt by Greek troops being told to train.

"Then the Ionians who had gathered at Lade held assemblies; among those whom I suppose to have addressed them was Dionysios, the Phokaian general, who spoke thus: “Our affairs, men of Ionia, stand on the edge of a razor, whether to be free men or slaves, and runaway slaves at that. If you now consent to endure hardships, you will have toil for the present time, but it will be in your power to overcome your enemies and gain freedom; but if you will be weak and disorderly, I see nothing that can save you from paying the penalty to the king for your rebellion. Believe me and entrust yourselves to me; I promise you that, if the gods deal fairly with us, either our enemies shall not meet us in battle, or if they do they shall be utterly vanquished.”
When the Ionians heard this, they put themselves in Dionysios' hands. He then each day put out to sea with ships in column, using the rowers to pierce each other's line of ships, and arming the fighting men on board; for the rest of the day he kept the fleet at anchor; all day he made the Ionians work.

>>2983319
For seven days they obeyed him and did his bidding; but on the next day, untried as they were in such labor and worn out by hard work and by the sun, the Ionians began to say each to other: “Against what god have we sinned that we have to fulfill this task? We have lost our minds and launched out into madness, committing ourselves into the hands of this Phokaian braggart, who brings just three ships of his own; and having got us he afflicts us with afflictions incurable. Many of us have fallen sick already, and many are likely to suffer the same thing; instead of these ills, it would be better for us to suffer anything, and endure this coming slavery, whatever it will be, rather than be oppressed by that which is now upon us. Come, let us obey him no longer!”
So they spoke, and from then on no man would obey. As if they were an army, they raised tents on the island where they stayed in the shade, and they were unwilling to embark upon their ships or to continue their exercises."
Herodotos 6.11-12

>>2976997
Easy access to boi pucci

>>2975407
Olympics? Sparta?

>>2975407
The Western Way of War by Victor Davis Hansen, if you're interested in a book, sheds a lot of light on your question imo.

>>2976997
Hot.

You're wrong OP. What is factually correct to say is that most city-states didn't have ANNUAL training and drills for the entirety of their defense forces (which for many, was just levied militias). But many did have smaller-units that were year-round professionals (Athens had a small unit of mercenary or paid archers and horse archers, as-well as having some of their Calvaryman State-subsidized for training and up keeping of their horses). Athens, and presumably many others' like it, had Ephebic education phrase for young men 18-20 which they were taught drills, 'how to fight in heavy armor' and were train to know how to throw a javelin, and they spent around 2 years on active-duty border patrol and guarding mostly around the country-side. Aristotle / Psuedo-Aristotle mentions this in the "Constitution of the Athenians", and says that it's required in order to become an official voting citizen in Athens, and there's remarks by orators, as-well as mentions about skirmishes with Ephebe recruits during military conflicts that occurred in Attica from authors, that back up this claim that it existed. The treatise details that each deme hires two military arms drill tutors, who also hire their own limited staff, to train the Ephebes in their deme, and after the arms training--prior to being put on frontier-duty--they get issued a spear and shield and get paid in the mean-time until their training ends.

So yes, a lot of them did receive weapons training, but they weren't drilled annually and consistently like full-time soldiers like the Spartans were (who Xenophon mentions their education also includes javelin-tossing and 'how to fight in armour') or Macedonian troops under Philip. Part of the reasons why the phalanx was probably so popular was because it didn't require that much training (relatively speaking) to form and successfully move out in one so long as your men were fitted as hoplites..

>>2975473
That section is out of context since it comes from the interlocutor advocating the use of armor in training, opposite statements advocating training with armor can be found beside it from different characters.

>>2976675
These people aren't LARPing

>>2978810
It does if you want to do ass to the grass squats

>>2983924
Actually no. You're right that they do talk about that but the context of my quote, and I ommtied it because it was to large to post, was that of the advantages of hoplite training. Here's the part I omitted.

"if this skill in arms is an accomplishment, as they say who teach it, and as Nicias terms it, it ought to be learnt; while if it is not an accomplishment, and those who promise to give it are deceiving us, or if it is an accomplishment, but not a very important one, what can be the good of learning it? I speak of it in this way from the following point of view: I conceive that if there were anything in it, it would not have been overlooked by the Lacedaemonians, whose only concern in life is to seek out and practice."

Here they talk about that since the Spartans, or the Lacedaemonians, did not practice hoplite training it was not worth learning. After that you have the rest of the quote I posted.
And yes, the Spartans did not do hoplite training. They practiced formations and had a officer hierarchy but they did not practice with their weapons.

It wasn't until Phillip II that you see a professional phalanx. The Macedonian phalanx was properly drilled and armed unlike the Greek hoplite which was untrained and undrilled.

>>2987825
O shit, meant to reply to this guy.
>>2985366

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>>2975407
Yes OP, Greeks were just born with a natural inclination to form tight shield walls of heavily armored infantrymen.