How is your favourite underrated general? No Ceasars, Napoleons

>>2973466
Babur or Nader Shah.
Babur encountered lots of hardship, lost often, but thanks to general perseverance and ingenuity he built a legacy and left a lasting mark on the face of the world.

Nader Shah was a tactical and strategic genius but his legacy didn't last for shit, and his name was forgotten, even in his own homeland.

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>>2973466
what about this Caesar?

>>2973527
What did he do?

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>>2973535
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanicus
if no Caesars at all, then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verrucosus

>>2973542
>Falling for the Fabian meme
There's a reason he was replaced

>>2973559
yeah, roman dictatorship only lasted six months

>>2973466
Rokkosovsky.

swamp fox, guerrilla warfare founder and +1 for great name
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

Friedrich von Bernhardi
He had the honor of being the first man to ride through l'Arc de Triomphe after the Franco-Prussian War. He had a very good understanding of war for his time and had a surprisingly clear picture of where war was heading (WWI). He predicted a quick decisive victory, but if none happened, then he predicted a protracted stalemate that would ultimately be decided by economic factors.

>>2973466
Paulinus
The way he rekkd the britons was enough
Also, Kuribayashi from the defense of Iwo Jima

Khalid ibn Walid. Criminally underrated. He'll proceed to outmanouvre and destroy any force you throw at him

Adam Philippe Custine

not sure if he is my favourite underrated general he falls more in the J U S T category

>makes no mistakes in the field and is paramount to the survival of the first republic

> get's shafted by political intrique

> get's back to the front, which has turned into a shit show during his absence and is able to retain much of the threatend territory

> gets recalled again because he lost a military hopeless cause

>his sucessors fuck up

>get's sentenced to death by the tribunal

>ends up largly forgotten

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>>2973466
Captain Gars.

Belisarius is bestgirl

>>2973703
>fight two collapsing, piss-poor and depopulated empires
>use swarm tactics to overwhelm defenders
Not impressive.

>>2973466
Today you could unironically say alexander is underrated, his millitary splendour is literally being downplayed at any possible occasion

Honestly I think Scipio was better than Hannibal. Hannibal only won Trasimene and Trebia because the Roman leaders at those battles were basically retarded. Scipio faced talented opposition at both Ilipa and Zama, especially when you consider that Hannibal's army an Zama was the most experienced army in the world at the time.

>>2974515
Only like 1/3 of hannibal's army at Zama was the experienced dudes. Most of it was raw recruits that they scrambled together at the last second

>>2974531
yeah but that last third wasn't used effectively at all. Scipio's remaining infantry would have lost to Hannibal's 3rd line had the Numidian cavalry not returned to outflank. Hannibal's only real strategy in that battle was to elephant charge the shit out of the Romans and keep their cavalry with his wild goose chase tactic. Scipio found a way to stop the elephants, and of course the Numidians realized it was a ruse. It was like he had no contingency plan

>>2973499
>Nader Shah
>forgotten in his own homeland
He's still revered in Persia.

DAILY REMINDER, TOP 10 GREATEST GENERALS EVER:

10) Babur of Mughals
9) Alexander of Macedonia
8) Scipio Africanus of Rome
7) Hannibal of Carthage
6) Belisarius of Byzantium
5) Mustafa Kemal Ataturk of Ottomans/Turkey
4) Frederick the Great of Prussia
3) Suvorov of Imperial Russia
2) Napoleon of France
1) Subutai of Mongols

>>2974618
Napoleon is first
Putting anyone else there is retarded

>>2973559
There is a reason Minucius called him father after fabius saved his ass.

The three Shimazu brothers.
I can't think of a single battle where any of them did poorly.

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>>2973466
Better than Napoleon

>>2974618
Subutai is a no contest greatest General.

No goddamn discussion even allowed. He created strategic warfare.

>>2974618

i am really not sure about Frederick II... sure he won some nice battles through great manoevering but at the same time he was the only person who had soldiers with this level of training to pull that off and he only inherited them

>>2974618
Hannibal is over rated. muh elephants

>>2974661
Who did he beat?

>>2974674
He invented foraging, scorched earth,

He literally ran circles around Roman armies 5 times his size

not to mention Cannae, the wet dream victory of every Great General

>>2974675
He was the sole guy responsible for the record setting expansion of the Mongols.

Genghis gave him command of his armies, even before his sons.

>>2974618
>Hannibal above Scipio
That's like putting Pompey above Julius Caesar, or Marc Antony above Agrippa

>>2974681
Given resources Hannibal did a much better job.

1 defeat cant undo 10 years of ownage, if it did Iron Duke would rate higher than Napoleon

>>2974680
The majority of the land he conquered were disconnected and weak central Asian lands and kingdoms on the decline> You couldn't even name one notable general he had to face on the field

>>2974677
>invented scorched earth

are you serious? This guy tried for years to unite the italic towns under his command - scorched earth is kind of the fucking opposite to that. Besides that, using the scorched earth tactic is far older and only makes sense if your army is weaker in the open field. Hannibal knew that he was stronger in the field, and so did the romans, which is the reason why after cannae no roman general risked an major open battle against him in italy

>>2974618
Fuck off Turk.

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>>2973466
The Man, the legend

Hamilcar Barca and Philip II. Fight me

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>>2974531
a bad workman always blames his tools

>>2974709
Philipp II of Macedon?

kind of a nice choice - he is certainly underrated because his son kind of stole the spotlight

>>2974722
Not only that, it's feasible to believe that he was a better general than Alexander.

Not enough Suvorov in this thread, also Timur gets in there purely because of flaming camels.

>>2974735
that is kind of difficult to judge given the sources that have survived - he was without a doubt far more skilled in the strategic aspect of war and in politics

>>2974149
t. Donald McBurger

Titus Labienus, he would've been the greatest general of his age, if it weren't for being around the same time as Caesar.

>>2974684
>10 years of ownage
3 good victories and then
>ah fuck I can't get reinforcements here
>ahh fuck what do I do about this guy who won't just march at me
>ahhh fuck they've taken Iberia
>ahhhh fuck they're in Africa
>ahhhhh fuck I lost
>Hey Antiochus wanna know how to hew the romans? I totally know how to beat the romans
And we all know how that went

>>2974741
>>2974655

u wot mate?

>>2974798
*how to beat

>>2974618
>Alexander that low
>Subutai in first place
>Ataturk
spotted the Turk

>>2974233
>alexander
What would be a good short book on alexander, that is really juicy, on the psychology and perhaps the tactical philosophy he used?

(Difficult and vague question, best I got though.)

Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo. Fucking Nero.

>>2974722
>>2974735
Not only was he a great commander, but he was able to use more than just his army, like in the way he acquired Amphipolis and Thessaly

>>2974798
T. Gaius Terentius Varro

Unironically Khalid Ibn Al-Walid and Subutai. Fuckers never lost a battle in their lives. Khalid even Muhammad (Pbuh).

>>2974851
The whole "never lost" thing is a meme. Scipio defeated Hannibal yet most people rank Hannibal higher

>>2974851
Defeated*.Sorry. Typo.

>>2974859
>Scipio defeated Hannibal yet most people rank Hannibal higher
That's because Hannibal was outnumbered. If Hannibal had the same resources and numbers as Scipio. No one would give a shit about him.

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General der Panzertruppe Walter K. Nehring

The soviet offensive was launched on 12 January when Koniev's 10 armies burst out of the Baranov bridgehead.Guderians suggestion that the germans withdraw 12 miles from the frontline so the massed soviet artillery would fall on thin air was turned down by Hitler, as a result,everything was overrun in the initial Russian breakout.

A furious Hitler declared " Who was the half-wit who gave those orders?" only to realize it was himself when the earlier meetings minutes were re-read.

Walter Nehring somehow managed to keep XX1V panzer corps intact and pushed westwards, always seeking the path of least resistance. Like a snowball,Nehrings "wandering pocket" collected other fugitive units as it crossed poland.
It took 10 days for Nehrings Corps to batter its way to german lines, after a 150 mile odyssey.

Nehrings order of the day summed up his Panzerkorps epic journey

>"little or no rest,coupled with a shortage of fuel and ammo,but with frost and snow in abundane, along frozen roads,against a stronger and more speedy enemy,crossing rivers that had no bridges... none of these could stop our determination to defeat the enemy wherever he was met"

For greatest ever general you need

a) impossible battle
b) consistent wins
c) lasting legacy beyond warfare

only

Alexander, Ataturk, Napoleon fit that bill.

>>2974870
Battle of Zama
Scipio: 35,000
Hannibal: 40,000

>>2974894
>Ataturk
>consistent wins
The Turks were losing before the Greeks were going deeper into Anatolia

Objective greatest military commanders in History are:
1.Subutai.
2.Alexander the Great.
3.Khalid Ibn Al-Walid.
4.Napoleon
5.Hannibal
6.Julius Caesar.
7.Frederick the Great.
8.Belisarius.
9.Tamerlane.
10.Attila the Hun.
The most underrated of those are Belisarius, Khalid Ibn Al-Walid, and Subutai.

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Heraclius

>>2974870
>if only, if only, the hannibalfag cried
Scipio beat Hannibal because he was a better general and could think to contrive circumstances to his advantage on a larger scale than just each individual battle. Hannibal started a war he couldn't win, lost half his veterans crossing the alps and then got stuck in Italy for 16 years and was then outmaneuvered and defeated.

Scipio didn't have support from his senate, either. He had to gather and pay for his own army, and was firmly told that he would not get any reinforcements or supplies if he went to Africa.

>>2974871
Walter was too good for this world

>>2974915
please read up on your history, you are ruining the only good board on 4chan

>>2974899
I'm talking about the battles before Zama. Like Cannae, the Trebia, and Lake Trasimene.

>>2973606
>underrated

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>>2974931
Except that's how it went, Greeks were winning until they thought it was a good idea to go deeper into Anatolia where there were no almost Greek presence.

>>2974928
Hannibal was better for exactly the reasons you stated. Scipio didn't win the war for Rome. It was Fabius and the Roman tenacity that won.

>>2974928
>Scipio didn't have support from his senate
Neither did Hannibal. Carthage refused to send him any men or supplies. Hannibal used his own personal army from his own money.

>>2974941
Ataturk routed an Italian battalion with a fourth the number when he was 21 in Tobruk.

He won the impossible Battle of Gallipoli vs a 3x larger invading force in the midst of the greatest naval bombardment the world had ever seen. Turkish Independence war is peanuts for Ataturk's career. His greatest victories were as an ottoman officer

P:S. I'm a Greek American, doesn't mean I can't still respect the guy who handed us our ass. Turks call Alexander "Conqueror of the Early World" in their Ottoman sources, giving him huge respect.

Great generals transcend ethnic bickering.

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>>2973466
Carolus Rex

>>2974928
Rome supported Scipio far more than Hannibal was supported.

ITT: Morons who unironically think Scipio was better than Hannibal "Balls to the Wall" Barca

>>2974924
Isnt that the guy who lost half the empire to the mudslimes?

>OP says no Hannibal
>

>>2974975
He's the guy who ended a 30 year old war against the Sassanids with a victory, also went 1-on1 with a Persian general and won. Give him a fucking brake

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G*yreeks BTFO.

>>2974981
*break

>>2974982
>he says that while embracing Sultan Erdogan and spitting on Atat*rks legacy
kek

>>2974975
He returned back the True Cross from the Persians.

>>2974981
>>2974993
This doesnt make up the fact that he lost half the empire to a couple of inbred sandniggers

>>2974982
TURKED
U
R
K
E
D

>>2975003
I think he got resigned and went mad before the islamic invasion

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>>2974982
>For every Turk that died, 10 G*eeks died.

>>2974974
ITT: Punic shills who think Hannibal "muh elephants" Barca was better than Scipio "center flank switcheroo" Africanus

>>2974920
How the fuck is Khalid Ibn Al-Walid underrated? military exploits are all he is know for. Fucking Ceasar is more underrated than him, since normies only think of Caesar as a politician.

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>>2973466
Paul Van Riper gets my vote. During the Millennial Challenge 2002, he proved that the entire naval doctrine was vulnerable to asymmetric warfare. He is by no means a household name but arguably should be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

>>2975035
>How the fuck is Khalid Ibn Al-Walid underrated
Literally no one outside the Middle East knows about him. Everyone and their dog knows who Julius Caesar was.

>>2974982
Roaches commit genocide again, what a surprise...

>>2975038
>you can carry a silkworm on a zodiac
>bike messengers can pedal at the speed of light

>>2975081
>A fair and square battle, where you got your shit kicked in, is genocide.
The Cognitive Dissonance will never cease to amaze me.

>>2975095
I'm sorry, what?

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>>2975027
>punic shills

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>>2973466
>4 years into WW1 and chill and he gives you this look

>>2974054
my nigga

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>>2974149
The Persians still outnumbered him by an insane margin.

>>2975139
Ah yes, Andarzaghar and Bahman Jadhuyih, the two equals to Alexander

>>2975146
>Alexander
Alexander defeated a crumbling, declining Persian Empire, that was ruled by an unpopular emperor. If you're going to use that bullshit argument against Khalid Ibn Al-Walid. We will use it against Alexander.

>>2974871
Who was that German commander who killed a soviet tank army nearish Leningrad with only a battalion?

>>2974974
>ITT: people who think tactics without strategy is commendable

>>2975121
>was for the war that destroyed his nation
>was removed from his office for being such afailure
you made me miffed, mister

>>2975113

Those were the "abstractions" that van Riper force the exercise umpires to model.

He said that US SIGINT was useless against his forces, because he said he was using bike couriers instead of the radio. His bike couriers communicated information just as efficiently as the radio would.

How about some that haven't been mentioned yet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odaenathus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shirley_Wood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Lettow-Vorbeck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B5_Nguy%C3%AAn_Gi%C3%A1p

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The father of modern warfare
The Lion of the North

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>>2975038
holyfuck
>its a comfy /his/ thread in which I learn so much

>>2975157
I have no problem using that argument against Alexander, though my point is that Khalid never fought a decent general. My personal favourite is Napoleon

Does Frederick the Great count? Because if not he has my vote

>>2975038
"After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory. Among other rules imposed by this script, Red Force was ordered to turn on their anti-aircraft radar in order for them to be destroyed, and was not allowed to shoot down any of the aircraft bringing Blue Force troops ashore.[2] Van Riper also claimed that exercise officials denied him the opportunity to use his own tactics and ideas against Blue Force, and that they also ordered Red Force not to use certain weapons systems against Blue Force and even ordered the location of Red Force units to be revealed"

Fucking why even bother then.

Stellar performance by that guy though, bloody stellar.

>>2975081
>have double the ammount of infantry compared to your opponent
>fail horribly and lose half your force
>die in such a massive maves that the next generation calls it a genocide in a pathetic attempt to save face
Why are greek nationalists such fags?

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>>2973466
Wu probably would've won if he hadn't died. Pulling off that masterful conquest of Jing while he already had one foot in the grave proves it.

>>2975307

> Stellar performance by that guy though, bloody stellar.

Not really, Van Riper basically took the piss and wasted the government's money. His behavior would be perfectly fine in a pure war room war game with tokens and computers doing everything, but MC02 involved live units doing maneuvers as dictated by commands from the war game.

The first Marine Division was part of the war game to practice an amphibious assault. If the ships weren't "respawned" the marines would just have to sit on their ships masturbating to simulate having been killed, and that would waste their time and service life of the equipment.

The order to "not use chemical" was also logical, because using chemical weapons on US troops results in the US using nuclear back, and that would again turn into a waste of money.

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My personal pick for GOAT are either Napoleon or Subutai, but I'm surprised there's been no mention of Zhang Xun
He eats people

>>2975315
orthocucks and greeks just cant accept that a true alpha race owned their asses for half a millennia nonstop

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>joins the finn in finno-russian war to kill commies
>joins nazi germany in WWII to kill more commies
>joins america in the cold war to yet again kill even more commies

This man spent his entire military career killing reds. He is the definition of finnish weaponized autism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Törni

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>>2973708
Good choice, and yes, Adam Philippe Custine had a sad ending.

>>2975424
>Killing socialists
>Good

Go back

>>2973466
Ambrogio Spinola

>>2974671
What's your point? He took what he had and used it to great effectiveness; you can have the greatest team in the world but if the coach sucks it doesn't mean anything. He was good enough that Napoleon legitimately revered him.

>>2975262
>Khalid never fought a decent general
He actually did. He fought Heraclius who completely BTFO'ed the Persians out of the Holy Land and took back the True Cross.

>>2975239
This isn't an over-rated generals thread. When he faced a good opponent, he not only wasn't able to route him, but was killed.

>>2975164
The Hannibal had no strategy meme. Nice.

>>2975221
Because too many of them are Asian

>>2974684
Hannibal "Tactical Genius" Bacra decided to follow up Cannae by... spending years dicking around Italy instead of just immediately making due for Rome. He was only good if he was going against retards who were dumb enough to follow him into battle on his own terms. Guy had enough common sense not to bite and he just rampaged around pointlessly trying to draw their attention.

He's basically Lard Lad from that Treehouse of Horror episode.

>>2975606
Tell me his strategy then and explain how it was great enough to put him in the category of best generals of all time

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>>2974928
Saying Scipio is better than Hannibal is like saying Duke Wellington was better than Napoleon. Scipio's talent was spending obscene amounts of his own astronomical wealth and hiring the right African cavalry corps.

Hannibal was a genius in the field. He consistently took on armies which hugely outnumbered his and completely outmaneuvered them. His grand strategy came within a hair's breadth of bringing Rome to its knees. Had cavalry not been an issue, Hannibal would have defeated Scipio that day.

His problem wasn't elephants, his problem was underestimating just how badly the Italian allies wanted to be Roman citizens, how their entire tiered system of citizenship meant that new peoples were being constantly integrated into Rome, and the people were already so heavily invested in the system that they clung steady even in the face of appalling military defeats.

People sometimes look down on Aetius Flavius and the late Roman army for bringing mostly allied Germanics to the battle of Châlons, but Scipio Africanus's army had more or less the same proportion of non-citizen allies. Rome was always a place which was making new citizens out of people, and that's what the oligarchical Carthaginians and their mercenary captains simply couldn't conceive of.

When this citizenship program breaks down in the last century BC, the Republic goes right along with it.

>>2975565
>Heraclius
>Good general
Kek, he's about as good as Pompey was. Shit on any time he didn't have a great advantage in numbers

>>2975362
If the purpose of the excersice was for the marines to practice an amphibous assault then why allow a general to sink their ships in the first place? if the Military was looking for a large scale field excersice and not to compare and inspect if a hypothetical enemy could use unexpected tactics and how the military could respond to those tactics then why not set the game up to start with a pre orchestrated plan in the first place?

>>2975697
>Scipio's only talents were
Have you even read about him? Africanus was a total badass.
>Zama
>Ilipa and everything that he did in Iberia
Even in the war with the Seleucids, africanus and his brother shit on Hannibal, who fled like a bitch for the second time in his life

>>2975759

The main point of MC02 was to test Command, Control, and Communications. The Marines would conduct their amphibious ops in accordance with the orders given on the war game table. MC02 was essentially pre-orchestrated, but Van Riper tore up his script and decided to wizard 2 ton missiles onto rowboats and make a farce of things.

>>2975760
>Have you even read about him? Africanus was a total badass.
I don't disagree with you, but is it "marching a fucking herd of elephants over the Alps" badass?

I mean just consider the sheer technical and logistic challenges that went into something of that magnitude. He basically had to fight his way through Gauls just to get to the Alps to cross them so that he could fight the Romans on their back door. And every step of the way until the final one, Hannibal stomped ass.

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>>2975756
>Shit on any time he didn't have a great advantage in numbers
But Heraclius had a great advantage in numbers against Khalid Ibn Al-Walid in multiple battles, and Khalid still defeated him every time.

>>2975565
I don't know why I have to do this in every time someone says it but I'll say it again: Heraclius neither "BTFO" out of the Persians nor completely wrecked them. He had an equivalent sizable force of veterans left over after the end of the last Byzantine-Sassanid War and still choose to engage Shahrabaraz, the only Persian general whose equaled him on the battlefield, with diplomacy, bribes, and a separate treaty a full year after the end of the war to get him to peacefully withdraw his forces from Syria and Egypt.

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>>2974149
>use swarm tactics to overwhelm
Are we talking about the Romans here?

Mohammed, Inshallah!

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Nobunaga is really underrated(outside of Japan at least)

His boldness and innovative tactics were really something, in fact the sengoku era is filled with all kinds of genius moves by various generals
Its a shame Japanese warfare gets shit on because >lol katanas were useless

>>2973466
Demosthenes

Starts off with getting completely BFTO in Aetolia. Then manages to redeem himself by emasculating the Ambraciots and humbling Sparta. But Sicily did him in with a bad omen.

>>2975980

> Its a shame Japanese warfare gets shit on because >lol katanas were useless

Well it's also because they were very insular and there's not a lot of good outside frames of references. Daimyos that are legendary in Japan may not fare so hot outside of Japan. For all the hype about bushido and folded 1000 times, the Imjin War did not go all that well for Japan. The Ming and Joseon don't have the martial reputation of the Japanese, but they were able to push Japan back to Pusan twice.

>>2975642
>I don't understand military logistics and how sieges work.

>>2975980
It's also a shame the only reason he is controversial was warlords draping themselves in monk trapping got butthurt he treated them like all his other rivals.

>>2976019
Sengoku era tactics are pretty well documented, its not hard to compare them with the rest of the world. They developped pike & shot and volley fire tactics at the same time as europeans

>the Imjin War did not go all that well for Japan
But you're ignoring very important factors like logistics, numbers, Yi Sun-Sin and the Japanese politics at the time

>>2975658
Destroy an obscene amount of Romans and get the support of Carthage to destroy them. Issue was, Carthage didn't supply him well. Hanno was shit.

>>2975760
Scipio only beast Hannibal because Scipio had his best force and Hannibal had his worst.

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Financial and logistical genius who defeated Germany's greatest foe.

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>>2976047

> They developed pike & shot and volley fire tactics at the same time as Europeans

By that standard, the Chinese had it even earlier. Parallel military innovations have to be taken in context to understand their significance.

> But you're ignoring very important factors like logistics, numbers, Yi Sun-Sin and the Japanese politics at the time

If anything, Ming and Joseon were even more politically troubled than the Hideyoshi coalition. By 1592, Ming was well over the hill and constantly suffering from internal problems, while Joseon hasn't fought a war in 200 years. The Ming Navy in 1592 was utterly useless, a mere shadow of it's 1400's self.

>>2976061
Hannibal faced worse odds at Cannae. He just wasn't doing anything creative, and he didn't know how to deal with an army with no cavalry or elephants

>>2976166
Hannibal also had a whole army of well trained veterans at Cannae from his father fighting a mass of fresh recruits who had one of their consuls hit by a sling missile at the initial skirmish.

>>2975798
Yeah but you have to take opponents into account. Lots of gauls joined his army on his way to Italy, and the Roman commanders at Trebia, Trasimene, and Cannae were effectively retarded. Scipio pulled off a Cannae-tier victory against experienced generals with war elephants at Ilipa, and he defeated Hannibal, one of the greatest generals of all time, at Zama. Scipio managed to create not one, but two extremely clever strategies to deal with elephants, an enemy no one in the med really knew how to deal with at the time. Hannibal knew what he was getting into, Scipio had to improvise.

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>>2974515
>>2974681
>>2974859
>>2974928
This desu. Scipio was objectively superior to Hannibal.

>>2973466
Arthur Wellesley aka the Duke of Wellington. People never rank him above Napoleon even though he crushed him

>>2976019
Nips were doing pretty well against the Gooks and Chinks though. Yi pretty much singlehandedly saved both Joseon and the Ming.

>>2976184
>Scipio pulled off a Cannae-tier victory
Zama was a good victory but it wasnt anywhere close to Cannae

Cannae is literally THE battle, a heavily numerically inferior forces not only beating but decimating a superior force with no ambush or geographic advantage but through sheer tactical prowess

>>2974618
>no khalid ibn al walid

what

>>2976218
>Wellington
If it wasn't for the Prussians he never would've won his most famous victory. In fact most of the Prussian big dogs from the Wars of Liberation can go in this thread, especially Bulow.

>>2976218
>People never rank him above Napoleon even though he crushed him
That's because he never had a Jena–Auerstedt tier victory. Simultaneously smashing two armies which are numerically superior and on the books better trained is Napoleon's crowning jewel

IMO von Clausewitz is probably the best military mind of the coalition

>>2976245
I was talking about Ilipa retard

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>>2973466
Among ancient generals, Flavius Aetius is pretty underrated, although among the later Romans, he is the most famous next to Belisarius and Stilicho.

>>2976271
what the hell are you talking about

>>2974954

Did you by chance know that ataturk during the Gallipoli invasions was under the command of a german? Or that the Gallipoli landings were in the wrong area resulting in the entente soldiers being shelled too?

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>>2973466
posting the best general of the middle ages

>>2973466
The Duke of Malborough

>>2976303
Perhaps more unrecognized than underrated, then. Aetius is still renowned among those that know much about Roman history, but I suspect he is notably more obscure than most famous Roman commanders between the Republic years through the middle Imperial period. Late Roman times has been gaining popularity, with the release of Total War: Attila, though.

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>>2973466
Not exactly a general, but Lesley McNair turned American artillery from a bunch of outdated French WWI guns pulled by horses to a mechanized, accurate, and very well-supplied artillery force that was crucial in defeating the Nazis.

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>>2973466
>Who is your favourite underrated general?

Everybody knows him but pretty much all of them also shit on him.

Charlemagne.

>>2973466
Africanus

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Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, aka Gran Capitán

>>2974563
The elephants themselves were also raw recruits. The battle would have gone the other way even with the Numidian betrayal had Hannibal had quality troops at his disposal

>>2976975
>Charlememe

>>2973466
Sertorius

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General Wei Qing of the Han Dynasty.

A.k.a "Don't mind me, I walked an infantry army up in the steppes to fight horse archers and won."

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>>2977141
Another Chinese example would be this guy, Fu'kanggan, of the Qing Dynasty.

Pretty much responsible for China's current shape. Fought the Southern Rebels, pacified Taiwan, demolished the Dzungars and orchestrated their genocide, occupied Tibet, defended Tibet from the invading Gurkhas, and even attacked Nepal itself, defeating the Gurkhas there.

Did lose in Vietnam though.

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>>2973466
SKANDERBEG

>>2973466
my boy nader shah has already been mentioned alongside babur, so I'm just gonna add Sher Shah, Shahanshah Ismail and Abbas, Skanderbeg, Janos Hunyadi, Jan Sobieski, Alessandro Farnese, Francesco Sforza and Raimondo Montecuccoli.

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>>2973466
This guy

>>2976003
It was all Nicias' fault anon.

>>2977090
why did I have to scroll 170 posts until I found a Spaniard?

>>2976949
If only roof tiles weren't so powerful.

>>2977486
Black legend my dude

>>2977571
>your grandma will never kill one of the greatest generals the world has ever seen.
why live?

>>2977103
Even with well trained elephants Scipio would have won. His tactic against the elephants that didn't flee the field was pretty watertight

>>2977571
beat me to it

>>2974684
>Iron Duke would rate higher than Napoleon
Why shouldn't he? One of the two ended up on St. Helena, and it wasn't Wellington. You can say "Oh, but Napoleon had to deal with a weaker position, etc." However, keep in mind that Napoleon chose his position in the sense that he decided to try to become the ruler of revolutionary France as opposed to trying to make his fortune in some other manner.

>>2973527
OP said UNDER rated. Germanicus was rated very highly, probably more highly than his abilities really warranted.

>>2973542
>Underrated
>Fabius Maximus

In what possible way is he under rated? Although I'd agree that he was rated poorly while using his delaying tactics, he was pretty rapidly vindicated when it worked.

>>2974618
>No Gaius Marius

Opinion discarded.

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I present for your consideration Võ Nguyên Giáp.

Probably over rated in Viet Nam, but severely under appreciated outside that country.
Beat the Japanese, beat the Chinese, beat the Americans, beat the French (admittedly lots of people have done the last one), all with the military resources of some third world SEA shithole.

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>>2974982
>Greek damage control incoming

>>2977974
lmao seriously? He has maybe too good victories in his military career, the real person missing is Sulla

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As much as us albos suck his cock, Skenderbeg was (room for debate) the greatest generals in the period!

Also points to John Hunyadi, who also was a great general. Points to Alexius I of Byzantium. Francis Marion "the swamp fox" is also a VERY underrated figure as well.

Sulla and Bellisarius... Both those guys did magic of Alexander/Julius Ceasar tier yet nobody gives a shit about them

>>2978280
I've heard people mention them before, its just that they are not world renown like Alexander/Caesar.

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The epitome of underrated

>>2978288
Another guy that is probably (If the romance of the 3 kingdoms is accurate) wayyyy beyond even Ceaear and Alexander is Zhuge Liang of the Shu Han (literally who?) The dude seems almost fictional, he was an invetor/wizard/strategist that BTFO'd everyone he ever faced

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Ok, here's my time to shine. Presenting to all of /his/ General Gjergj (Giorgio) Basta!

Born to an Albanian immigrant, he spent his younger years in his father's cavalry regiment under the Spanish Empire. He grew to fame in the war of the War of the Three Henrys, where he almost captured Henry of Navarra, and also dueled Sir Roger Williams. Gaining a scar on his neck from the deadly match of horses.

He then was transferred to Transylvania, where he warred against the Ottoman Turks and their proxies the Protestants for around 20 years. In that time he captured several fortresses, and executed Michael the Brave, Prince of Wallachia.

After the wars, he retired to write two books in Prague, and got several awards from the lords around.

>>2978307
A lot of the Marshals could be listed here

>>2978245
I eagerly await your recounting of a long list of Sulla's brilliant victories.

>>2978334
Orchomenus, Chaeronea, Sacriporto. Not to mention that he was the true driving force in the Cimbrian war

Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi

Otherwise a military genius who should make KANGZ Afrocentrists proud, but they're too ignorant to know him. so..

From Wikipedia:

>Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi (Somali: Axmad Ibraahim al-Gaasi, Harari: አሕመድ ኢቢን ኢብራሂም አል ጋዚ, "Acmad Ibni Ibrahim Al-Gaazi" [Afar], Arabic: أحمد بن إبراهيم الغازي ) "the Conqueror"[2] (c. 1506 – February 21, 1543)[3] was a Imam and General of the Adal Sultanate who rebelled against Abyssinia and defeated several Abyssinian emperors.[3] With the help of an army mainly composed of Somalis, Harla (Hararis),[4] Afars, Arabs[5] and Ottoman Turks,[6] Imam Ahmad (nicknamed Gurey in Somali, "Gura" in Afar and Gragn in Amharic (ግራኝ Graññ), all meaning "the left-handed"), embarked on a conquest which brought three-quarters of Abyssinia (modern day Ethiopia) under the power of the Muslim Sultanate of Adal during the Abyssinian-Adal War from 1529-43

>>2978267

>Hunyadi

My nigga.

>>2973499
I like how Babur constantly makes mistakes and learns from them, and you see his journey pay off in the end.

It's almost like a story with morals.

Pyrrhus of Epirus

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>Moshe Dayan (rejected by most Anons because he is a Jew)
>William Slim (Probably UK's GOAT general in ww2, fought in most underrated theater in ww2, rejected because ww2 anglo general meymey)
>Nathan Forrest (CSA had some good commanders, but this mofo is one of the best)
>Cuthbert Collingwood (The second to Nelson, probably deserves more credit for Nelsons victories)
>Tōgō Heihachirō (Btfo the Russians)

Parmenio is the most underrated general in history considering Alexander the Great didn't do shit he just relied on his generals the whole time and Parmenio was the most experienced of all of them. Parmenio did all the work and Alexander got all the credit

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>>2973466

>no Napoleon

fuck you, it's Napoleon

>>2978808
How the hell is he underrated?

>>2978319
>this b8
The best overall strategist, though he was more politician than military commander, was Jia Xu. If we're going purely military then it's hard to top Guo Jia, Zhou Yu or Lu Meng.

>>2978701
Pyrrhus's only weaknesses were rooftiles and victory

>>2978834
he hasn't been unanimously voted as the GOAT of everything.

>>2978714
>Santa Anna
>Loses half of his country
>Underrated general
No.

>>2978356
So 3 is somehow hugely more meaningful than 2?

I mean if the argument against Marius was not enough battles won in glorious victories, you can't then argue that Sulla should be included.

>>2975009
>>2975756
>>2975565

Heraclius never personally fought Khalid or any Arab generals. He was supposed to lead the army at Yaromouk, but was too sick to do so.

Publius Decius Mus. Fuck the Greeks mang.

>>2979380
Marius doesn't have any great victories like Sulla does, and those he did win in the Cimbrian war were because of Sulla. If you won't have great victories you should at least have lots of small ones

The Soviet generals of WW2 are pretty impressive looking at the numbers of men under their command. Zhukov, Vasilevsky, and Rokossovsky were all great.

>>2979372
Clearly memeing to get (you)'s m8. Pic clearly unrelated, Santa Anna is shit.

>>2974642
>Napoleon
>Loses everything
Apparently he's not so great.

>>2980834
He won over 50 pitched battles and 6 wars

I know this is pretty well known one just a personal favorite, the desert fox himself Rommel

all this shilling is making me cringe

aside from Friedrich, Belisarius, Subutai and Mustafa Kemal none of the people mentioned achieved any lasting "victory" or left a legacy of stability.

Napoleon my ass, he was railed by Wellington.

>>2980834
how many people have had a whole continent against them and survive for so long?
>>2980934
wellington was on the brink of collapse when the prussians came

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>>2973466
Hugh O'Neill. He manage to unite the Irish clans into a modern continental army and achieved quite a few victories against the English, almost driving them to bankruptcy before being defeated at Kinsale (due to Spain landing on the wrong side of the country and following shit advice from O'Donnell).