Is there a single military force that can beat the Roman legions

>>2966897
Parthians, G*rmanics, and Sassy Nids did.

>>2966897
Parthians, Carthaginians, Germanic barbarians and Romans. That's all I can think of.

>>2966897
Pretty much any medieval force worth their salt. Shock cavalry and crossbows completely changed warfare.

>>2966897
The Horde of Ögedei Khan

>>2966903
>Romans can beat romans
Really made me think.

Romans were beat all the time.

Just so happens they had Tyche on their side.

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kruats

>>2966897
what's the point of the non-hardmode question

the legions couldn't take on a blackpowder army, let alone something like the RKKA or Wehrmacht

Now, to evaluate this question, you need to know a few things about rome at it's peak. The largest army ever assembled(for a single campaign) under rome was about 200,000, in dacia, however rome as a whole had about 750,000 total men in the military. I'm going to assume by pre-gunpowder you mean pre-gunpowder's widespread European usage, in which case there are plenty of choices. I'm also going to assume you exclusively mean European forces, which makes the search a bit harder, but still easy.
I'll start with the obvious ones. France and England could both easily have defeated them at their heights in the Hundred Years War. The Holy Roman Empire at its height, when it was still centralized, could also easily have defeated the Roman military. Poland-Lithuania, before gunpowder, could easily have done it, as well. Charlemagnes empire at its height would have had some troubles but certainly would come out on top. Hungary in the early to mid 1400s would have been in a similar range, as well as Castille, west, central, and east Francia, Muscovy, Poland before the commonwealth, Denmark(1400s), Aragon at its height... essentially any semi-major power in Europe in the 1400s and 1300s, and major powers in the 1200s, and empires before that. There's no doubt that rome was vast, and commanded great legions. But they were riddled with many problems that (relatively) modern armies wouldn't face, like logistics, administration, and transportation, and would have severe technological disadvantages, even without gunpowder. The weakest European guy before gunpowder in that time period that could take them on and most likely win is Austria in the 1300s. It would be a death struggle but Austria would most likely pull out the victor.

>>2966897
The strength of Rome was never the legions their strength was all the things that let the legions come and remain in existence.

>>2966965
Also
>shitty navy
>meh cavalry

>>2966965
Isn't Austria part of the HRE?

>>2966897
if the battle is on an open field, the romans would be defeated by the Mongols at their height in military power

>>2966979
I meant Austria, functioning independently in that case

>>2966985
why even need an open field?

huns were basically proto-Mongols and they kicked Rome's ass constantly

>>2966965
>But they were riddled with many problems that (relatively) modern armies wouldn't face, like logistics, administration, and transportation

logistics and administration was Rome's strongest suit, they made sure they're military supplies and infrastructure was in tip-top condition.

>>2967012
You fell for a MEME, anon. They were good at it for the time, definitely. They weren't the US in ww2. They lacked a navy for transport and had really shit messenger cavalry. There would be no realistic way for them to manage a front against an enemy of good size with better technology. The game changed completely after the Mongols, and warfare in Europe was completely different. New tactics, new ideas, etc, for dealing with massive forces, and utilizing some Mongol strategies. Also consider crossbows, which COMPLETELY changed ranged warfare. You think a slinger could protect themselves from that fire?

I'd wager the Chinese could give them a good run for their money, also, roman command incompetence was the greatest foe Rome ever faced

>>2966908
Civil wars were pretty frequent

>>2966908
The Roman military was the greatest contributor to the collapse of the Roman military. A straight century of almost non-stop civil war tends to fuck you up pretty bad.

>>2966897

If lead by Ceasar himself - none

If lead by the myriad of incompetent aristocratic buffoons that marred later Roman conquests - all the nations mentioned in this thread.

Don't forget that legions were only part of the roman army. They had horse archers, light skirmishers, heavy siege equipment and so on and so forth, some native and a lot of foreigners.
Sometimes they had elephants as well, which could absolutely crush the cavalry advantage of some of the nations mentioned in this thread.

>>2967003
the Huns didn't fight a "real" Roman Legion though, just the shitty semi-militia that the Romans used after the collapse

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>>2967003
>>2967357

excuse me, I think you need to check yourself before you delenda yourself

Han/Tang at their peak. Mongol at their peak.

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>>2967362
Flavius Aetius was based. He commanded both Romans and barbarians against the Huns, at a time in which increasingly, the Western Roman Empire had larger numbers of foreign tribes, such as Goths, settling its lands. In large part, he understood Hunnic tactics through living in the court of their king for much of his childhood through early adulthood. Of all the Roman commanders of his time, Aetius was the most competent to counter the Hunnic threat perpetuated by Attila.

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>>2967362
It's worth pointing out that Flavius Aetius also received a Julius Caesar type of assassination death, sadly, in the Roman senate hall. The perpetrator was none other than the current Emperor, Valentinianus III, himself. This Emperor was soon to be deposed by those loyal to the former Magister Militum Aetius.

>>2967397
>People stab Caesar
>Caesar stabs person

poetic

>>2967397

that's the battiest thing, the emperor himself up and murders the man in a sudden fit of jealousy and paranoia

that sojourn with his mother in the east during the succession squabbles really put the zap on him

>>2967389

For Rome its is only natural when given a competent commander that an incompetent emperor has him killed

The Roman Army "at its peak" would be pretty roundly beaten by the Roman army of the 4th century.

It was larger, better trained, better equipped and had almost 25 times the amount of cavalry.

>Stilicho saves the Empire
>Honorius has him killed in a fit of autistic rage
>Aetius saves the Empire
>Valentinian III has him killed in a fit of autistic rage
>Majorian saves the Empire
>Ricimer has him killed in a fit of autistic rage
What did history mean by this?

>>2967707
Roma delenda est

>>2966899
>G*rmanics
what kind of meme is this?

The samurai

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>>2966897
The Eternal Gael

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>>2966897

>>2966897
With equal funding, manpower, and supply of iron, nearly any civilization would have been equal.

>>2966897
There were Roman opponents who BTFO'd them at their peak.
Parthia and the Germanics kept sending them back with their tails between their legs.

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>>2966897
>implying Rome can defeat the warriors of Islam

>>2966897
Turko-Mongol horsemen would wipe the floor with boyfucking greeks and romans.

>>2968329
You are absolutely retarded.

Led by a half decent commander and made up primarily of Latins? Practically no one.

Nearly every single major defeat the Romans ever suffered was because of gross incompetence.

>>2966906
/thread

>>2968515
I know you're meming but Saladin or really any major caliphate would have defeated time somewhat easily.

>>2966965
>>2966985

Rome was big it could absorb damage, and after they had learned the enemy's tactics and whereabouts romans could beat them if it had any sense to do it

and THIS >>2967345

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>>2966897
Unironically this.

Are romanboos the most ignorant out of any historical fanboys?

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There's a reason they stopped trying after Carrhae

>>2967345
Good post, very honourable.

>>2970928
Not even in the bottom 10

>>2970928
I would say there are varying degrees but overall Romaboos aren't the most ignorant of fanboys. Such a title would probably to something else. Certain communist fanboys, wehraboos, weeps and viking Nordaboos are the top worst.

>>2970932
>There's a reason they stopped trying after Carrhae
They didn't. They kept going until well after the arab conquests.

>>2967345
>Caesar can fuck over anybody
Bullshit, all of the shit mentioned above still applies. Caesar was the best general of his time but times change, you'd have to be autistic to believe the Romans would win against a mongol horde when a small Parthian cavalary-heavy army defeated Caesar's sugar daddy at Carrhae. The wooden fort he had built worked against Gauls but good luck stopping Greek Fire or an English longbowmen volley. He wouldn't stand a chance against any prominent military commander - Saladin, Charlemagne, William de Normandy, Ghenghis, Seljuk, Alfred the Great, Vlad the Impaler just to name a few.

>>2972827
I'l double down on this and add Alexander's army to that list, they'd outflank Caesar's army without much effort.

>>2972827
>>2972833
shut the FUCK UP HOW DARE YOU speak of caesar like that

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>>2972865
Yeah that's right, also he was cucked by this pleb

>>2966897
Literally anyone post-Gunpowder. The fucking Lichtenstein police could beat them.

>>2966897
The Byzantine army of John I Tzimiskes and Basil II.

>>2967707
>Honorius: Christian
>Valentinian: Christian
>Ricimer: Christian
I think I'm noticing a pattern here...

>>2966897
Yes there was it was a popolation in the south east of europe the romans attacked them but after they gave up. I really can't remember the name pls help.

>>2972885
We have an expert. Watching Gate made him one.

>>2970921
Why?

>>2972911
>Stilicho: Christian
>Aetius: Christian
>Majorian: Christian

The only pattern here is your continuing autism

Afghans would wreck their shit.

The US marine corps

>>2972833

you think Caesar wasn't educated in everything Alexander had done like any standard military commander in Rome?

he routinely compared his achievements with Alexander's campaigns, he was completely aware of his tactics and thinking, as of those of any famous general in the past.

Caesar's main quality was his ability to find unorthodox solutions and lead men through very fierce and dire situations, he is in fact exceptionally prepared to face any military force of superior technology, though of course there would be a limit to what he could achieve.