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How can people say communism never works when Stalinist industrialization led to the second most dramatic economic growth ever recorded (barley behind the Meiji restoration)?
Before the five-year-plans, Russia was a medieval country. In just a few decades, literally hundreds of millions of people learned to read, got access to healthcare for the first time, managed to purchase things like radios, books, magazines.
Millions of people saw dramatic upwards mobility unheard of in the West at the time. Most of the best scientists and engineers of the '30s and '40s were born in piss-poor farming families and through merit and hard work, managed to become part of the upper-class intelligentsia. Even many Soviet officials had humble backgrounds, like Kalinin who was a farmer.
Obviously WW2 could never have been won without the five-year-plans.
Economically and socially, Russia was very similar to India in 1914 in terms of literacy, access to healthcare, and basic living standards.
Compare Russia and India today and you'll see that it's actually capitalism which doesn't work, not socialism. Even though Russia isn't socialist anymore most of its infastructure and institutions were created in the Stalin era.
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The Stalinist economic boom was significantly slower than those in South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, or China.
In fact, given the degree to which Russia was industrializing before WW1, it's highly likely that communism harmed Russia's economy, even during its best years.
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>Between the poverty stricken year of 1924, when Lenin died, and the relatively abundant year of 1940, the cultivated area of USSR expanded by 74 percent; grain crops increased 11 percent; coal production was multiplied by 10; steel output by 18; engineering and metal industries by 150; total national income by 10; industrial output by 24; annual capital investment by 57. During the First Five-year Plan, 51 billion rubles were invested; during the Second, 114; and during the Third, 192. Factory and office workers grew from 7,300,000 to 30,800,000 and school and college students from 7,900,000 to 36,600,000. Between 1913 and 1940, oil production increased from nine to 35 million tons; coal from 29 to 164; pig iron from 4 to 15; steel from 4 to 18; machine tools from 1000 to 48,000 units, tractors from 0 to over 500,000; harvestor combines from 0 to 153,500; electrical power output from two billion kWh to 50 billion; and the value of industrial output from 11 billion rubles to more than 100 billion by 1938. If the estimated volume of total industrial production in 1913 be taken as 100, the corresponding indices for 1938 are 93.2 for France; 113.3 for England, 120 United States; 131.6 for Germany, and 908.8 for the Soviet Union.
Schuman, Frederick L. Soviet Politics. New York: A.A. Knopf, 1946, p. 212
>Russia, 20 years ago the least mechanized country, has become the foremost…. In the same decade between 1929 in 1939, in which the production of all other countries barely mounted, while even dropping in some, Soviet production was multiplied by 4. The national income mounted between 1913 in 1938 from 21 to 105 billion rubles. The income of the individual citizen was increased by 370% in the last eight years–with only irrelevant income taxes and reasonable social security contributions imposed upon them–while it dropped almost everywhere else in the world.
Ludwig, Emil, Stalin. New York, New York: G. P. Putnam’s sons, 1942, p. 129
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>>2918206
lmao
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>>2918223
>GDP per capita peaks at 8,000
Is life in Russia really that bad?
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>>2918232
Yes
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>In 1939 Stalin reported that the iron and steel industry, which had been virtually non-existent in the early 1920s, had made great strides: “In 1938 we produced about 15 million tons of pig iron; Great Britain produced 7 million tons.” Agriculture had been mechanized. In 1938 there were 483,500 tractors in use and 153,500 harvester combines–in a previously horse and plow countryside. Wages had doubled, from an annual average of 1,513 rubles in 1933 to 3,447 in 1938. Similar advances had been made in education; in a nation of centuries-old mass illiteracy there were now nearly 34 million “students of all grades”; in higher educational institutions there were 600,000 students; in 1938, 31,300 engineers, 10,600 agricultural specialists, and 35,700 teachers graduated. A new “stratum” of professionals had been born:
Cameron, Kenneth Neill. Stalin, Man of Contradiction. Toronto: NC Press, c1987, p. 74
>When we consider Stalin’s facts and figures, it becomes clear that we are witnessing the most concentrated economic advance ever recorded–greater even than those of the Industrial Revolution. Within 10 years a primarily feudal society had been changed into an industrialized one. And for the first time in history such an advance was due not to capitalism but to socialism.
Cameron, Kenneth Neill. Stalin, Man of Contradiction. Toronto: NC Press, c1987, p. 75
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Yep. All of that. At the cost of 10-12 million Russian lives. The 5 year plans, which were literally death incentives, were the reason behind such skyrocketing figures, not the implementation of any new economic systems.
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This actually is really interesting.
The Soviet economic system actually worked really well from 1919-1970. This was during a period when Western economies struggled relatively.
The system reached its limits in the 70's though. People didn't want to eat the same bread and ride the same shitty train each day. Furthermore, the economy got hooked on oil prices and corruption soared.
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>>2918269
>10-12 million
[Citations needed]
Starvation wasn't exactly uncommon in dirt poor shitholes like Russia 1850-1950.
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>>2918272
What an absolute load of total shit. Try getting your information from sites other than marxism.org you complete moron. I'd refute what you said but really every single word is garbage, and you "people" aren't worth the effort of refuting when the total and obvious failure of your ideology refutes itself.
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>>2918284
Soviet economic growth 1919-1970 was significantly faster than any other country on the planet.
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>>2918334
Absolutely untrue, yet again you filth can't even attempt an argument without lying.
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>>2918189
>How can people say communism never works when Stalinist industrialization led to the second most dramatic economic growth ever recorded (barley behind the Meiji restoration)?
Because the Japanese managed to do it without killing 5-10% of their population.
>Millions of people saw dramatic upwards mobility unheard of in the West at the time.
This type of social mobility was fairly common in western countries. "Social mobility" in the context of a communist state isn't exactly a good thing for the average person either because a lot of those "opportunities" that are being created are subversive jobs within the increasingly oppressive control structure of the regime. Nikolai Yezhov is another good example of Soviet "social mobility", he went from being a tailor's assistant to being the chief organizer of Stalin's Great Purge.
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>>2918339
Citation?
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>>2918342
>killing 5-10%
Too bad that this has nothing to do with reality.
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>>2918360
Google.com
Like I said I'm not wasting my time educating a chucklefuck simpleton liar like you.
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>>2918277
If people are starving while you are exporting grain to finance your industrialization, you are literally industrializing at the cost of people's lives.
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>>2918510
I'm a different anon, anon. Perhaps posting a link would improve the culture of the thread and argument.
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>>2918510
Go back to /pol/ retard
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>>2918189
Probably because a system dependent on stripping away the majority of individual rights and sacrificing basic humanity for the sake of production isn't considered a "working" system.
Whether you'd but the casualties in the lower or upper end of 2-to-10 million, the fact of the matter still remains that the operations of the NKVD, Great Purge, Mongolian Purge, and the vast quantities of torture and execution on account of various Plans pretty much invalidate the Stalinist model.
tl;dr: People don't say it worked because it was dependent on atrocities which people shouldn't, and generally don't want to, replicate.
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>>2918189
well, you are guaranteed to experiment an economic growth if you enslave people and make them work as animals 16 hours a day.
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>>2918189
Because many policies were follow ins from the New Economic Policy a bourgeoise intermediary and the Tsarist state was industrialising well which is why Germany starts the damn war
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>>2918189
Policies undertaken by communist states aren't communism. A tsar or a nationalist dictator or even a liberal president could have overseen Stalin's accomplishments if they had his same temperament and ambition.
Anticommunists are far too harsh in their conception of the Soviet Union and Maoist China, but communists must not point to such development as successes of their ideology. Communism is a revolutionary change in the mode of production which has not yet occurred, and all industrialization does is make such a society slightly more tenable.
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>>2918232
Inflation my man.
US per capita GDP was just 12,500 in 1980. UK was 8,000... not much better than the Soviet average.
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>>2918189
Important things to note:
The Soviet Union was never communist, it was a socialist dictatorship of the proletariat, in which a command economy (centred on gosplan) basically ran the country.
1) It was never communist because the state still existed; Marx defined communism as a system in which the structures of the state were no longer necessary due to how advanced the prevailing infrastructure was. The systems of government sued by the state would, as Engles described it, simply "wither away".
2) As you've described, the command economy was incredibly successful in rapidly industrialising and modernising the Soviet Union. Stalin stated in 1928 that the Soviet Union under the NEP was about 50-100 years behind America and the UK in pretty much everything; he said they could catch up in 10. He was right.
This is impressive and gives evidence to show the power of a command economy when trying to achieve something such as industrialisation, or just a fixed goal in general. However, the legacy of the Soviet Command economy proved to be its downfall.
The stagnation that occurred under Brezhnev was in part due to corruption, nepotism and Afghanistan, however, it was also the result of the command economy. Gosplan deciding literally everything from Moscow, e.g. the number of socks to be produced in Khazakstan, unsurprisingly lead to serious problems.
The system was just too fucking rigid, and could in no way compete with Western Capitalism. It was horrifyingly inefficient during peace-time when what should be achieved is economic prosperity.
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>>2918587
*economic status of political prisoners and Cleansed Regions and Unfavorable Regions Which Comrade Stalin Deems Irrelevant not included in these statistics
rly make yhu thinc...
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>>2918620
More Americans are in prison than Soviet citizens were ever in a gulag, so that doesn't work
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-americans-in-jail-2012-3
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>>2919007
>About 14 million people were imprisoned in the Gulag labor camps from 1929 to 1953 (the estimates for the period 1918–1929 are even more difficult to calculate). A further 6–7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4–5 million passed through labor colonies, plus 3.5 million who were already in, or who had been sent to, labor settlements.[11]
>current american prison population: 6 million
>6,000,000 < 14,000,000
>
>
>
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>>2919030
>Wikipedia
lmao
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>>2919049
> Robert Conquest in "Victims of Stalinism: A Comment." Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 49, No. 7 (Nov. 1997), pp. 1317–1319 states: "We are all inclined to accept the Zemskov totals (even if not as complete) with their 14 million intake to Gulag 'camps' alone, to which must be added 4-5 million going to Gulag 'colonies', to say nothing of the 3.5 million already in, or sent to, 'labor settlements'. However taken, these are surely 'high' figures." There are reservations to be made. For example, we now learn that the Gulag reported totals were of capacity rather than actual counts,leading to an underestimate in 1946 of around 15%. Then as to the numbers 'freed': there is no reason to accept the category simply because the MVD so listed them, and, in fact, we are told of 1947 (when the anecdotal evidence is of almost no one released) that this category concealed deaths: 100000 in the first quarter of the year'
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>>2919051
>Robert Conquest
Literally rolfmaoing my ass off
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>>2918277
it's kinda suspicious when millions of people die in kambodia, china and russia when they turn communist, yet we're supposed to believe that communism was not responsible for that that in any way whatsoever
please go and neck yourself, along with your completely failed ideology.
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>>2919059
name 6.73 (six point seven three) things wrong with robert conquest, you tanky nigger
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>>2919066
Robert Conquest has also been identified as having worked for the IRD from when it was set up until 1956. The Information Research Department (IRD), was a section set up in 1947 (originally called the Communist Information Bureau) whose main task was to combat Communist influence throughout the world by planting stories among politicians, journalists and others in a position to influence public opinion.
A 1978 story in the The Guardian alleged that Conquest's work there was to contribute to the so-called “black history” of the Soviet Union -- in other words, fake stories put out as fact and distributed among journalists and others able to influence public opinion. After he had formally left the IRD, Conquest continued to write books suggested by the IRD, with Secret Service support.
His book The Great Terror, a basic anti-communist text on the subject of the power struggle that took place in the Soviet Union in 1937, was in fact a recompilation of text he had written when working for the secret services. The book was finished and published with the help of the IRD. A third of the publication run was bought by the Praeger Press, normally associated with the publication of literature originating from CIA sources.
Conquest's book was intended for presentation to “useful fools”, such as university professors and people working in the press, radio and TV. Conquest to this day remains, for anti-communist historians, one of the most important sources of material on the Soviet Union.
http://www.fact-index.com/r/ro/robert_conquest.html
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>>2918252
>Kenneth Neill Cameron
yeah i'll belive a marxist about communist history, about as much i do neo-nazi about nazi-germany
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>>2918269
>muh gazitrillions
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>>2919064
But that's retarded, you're presupposing that famines are exclusive to communist ideology when the vast majority of 20th century famines were under capitalist or feudalistic societies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
You hear much, much more about communist famines for some strange reason...
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>>2919077
You'd rather believe a literal British spy whose job it was to shit out anti-communist propaganda
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>>2919082
>literally commie equivalent of /pol/tard memes
how fitting
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>>2919077
Difficult to find a neutral party desu, many grad students who delve into Soviet history end up becoming Marxists and there's a long tradition of governments funding research that paints the USSR in a negative light.
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>>2919089
>not
>an
>argument
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>>2919085
Prove it
Most other professors at the time were probably on the Soviet payroll
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>>2919084
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
lmao, in the list you linked you'll see that the famines in communist china, russia and cambodia far outweigh any of the equivalents. your also leaving out all the purges
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>>2919092
again with the /pol/ memes
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>>2918189
Because it had to work at point of gun. Without incentive and competition, the USSR had to force people into labor camps to become a global superpower. While it did cause growth in some sectors, the overall impact of the Communist regime left Russia and other USSR nation states crippled with its enforcement of a planned economy. The agricultural inefficiencies leading to famine are an example of this. The countries that made up the USSR have, on average, less GDP per capita than their Western European counter parts as they still struggle with transitioning into the modern global economy. Capitalist economies that diverge from free market principles choosing instead to pursue government intervention in industry also suffer. Take post WW2 Britain which, even though they were the victors of the war, faced a stagnat economy while Germany, who embraced the free market, became the powerhouse of Europe (mostly through manufacturing).
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>>2919091
>Difficult to find a neutral party desu, many grad students who delve into Nazi history end up becoming National socialist and there's a long tradition of (((them))) funding research that paints the Nazi regime in a negative light.
Do you tankies realize how you come across yet?
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>>2919076
It seems that in
the 27 years of the Gulag’s existence (1930–56) the number of people who were
sentenced to detention in prisons, colonies and camps was 17–18 million.
Ellman, Michael. "Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments." Europe-Asia Studies 54.7 (2002): 1164. Web.
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>>2918189
> another suburban kid has no fucking clue nor about russia, nor about communism
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>>2918189
Joseph Stalin looks like numale faggot..he looks like he would be wearing a pair of Ray Bans and posting on a Tumblr blog about revolutionaries if he was born in today's day and age. He honestly looks like someone I could beat the shit out of.
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>>2919277
Hes not a historian (degree in econ) and neither is Conquest. You will find literally zero evidence for these claims, no documents or archives support them. Instead, these megamillion "kill counts" are based on "estimates" by professional fraudsters like Service and Conquest, who both worked for the IRD. You have to be either 12 or 100% braindead to believe this comic book narrative
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>>2919328
HAHAHAHAHA you're a dumb commie and you accuse OTHERS of having no basis for their claims? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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>>2918189
>Before the five-year-plans, Russia was a medieval country.
Not this meme again
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>>2919328
Why do you think the exact number fucking matters, you dense fuck. Whether you take the lowest or highest estimate, it is STILL a fuckton of people and it is STILL a factor which disqualifies the Stalinist system from being declared functional. Saying "oh b-but f-famines happened elsewhere!!" or "b-but muh pig iron and GDP increase!!" is fucking irrelevant.
Note that you haven't responded to ANY of the posts that declare Stalin's model non-functional due to violation of human life. It's because you can't refute that with "o-oh statistically, pig iron exports show people were actually very happy with cannibalizing each other for stalin!!"
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>>2919146
I don't think many people who study Nazi history become Nazis
Just that one English writer who was never more than a pop historian
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>>2919347
dude the falseflagging is kinda obvious
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>>2919411
>I don't think many people who study Nazi history become Nazis
That wasn't even my argument, and completely irrelevant to what my post was pointing out.
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>>2919376
> objective truth doesnt fucking matter
Definitely not to NEET permavirgin /pol/acks like you. Feels are everything to the /pol/ack. Btw I like how you still cant find any actual proof for muh gazillions L M A O
>>2919347
Yawn! No evidence, no facts, only projected feels from father issues and middle school bullying
Come on guys, you can do a lot better than this!
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>>2918189
>In just a few decades, literally hundreds of millions of people learned to read, got access to healthcare for the first time, managed to purchase things like radios, books, magazines.
yeah and all it cost them was 20 million dead, how wonderful
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>>2919134
The "incentive and competition" in capitalist societies is nothing more than "work or starve". The Soviet system wasn't some aberration unparalleled in capitalism; it was capitalism wrapped in a red flag.
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>>2919545
Sure, you need to work to not starve, but you can choose where, how, when and what you work in capitalism.
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>>2919500
Listen, I'm going to handle this in 2 ways. Regardless of which applies to you, you can take a lesson from both.
>you're serious
This isn't /pol/. If you wanted to not be taken with a grain of seriousness, go to /pol/ not /his/. If you wanted to come here for historical perspective on why Stalin's model isn't considered to "work," you're actually going to have to wrestle with what you get. It is incontrovertible that millions died. I don't personally find 60+ mill reasonable, but at least a couple of million is reasonable given the thoroughly documented purges, marches and prosecution. There is abundant proof and documentation, but if you're also on par with holocaust deniers then just be clear that you're not actually here for historical analysis.
>you're not serious
In this case, it's even more obvious you're here because you're starved for conversation. All who are here share that to some degree. But what you're doing here shows so much desperation for attention that you'd be willing to sacrifice personal integrity. It's an anonymous board, yeah, but you know exactly how you're behaving and it weighs on you. I'm saying this matter-of-factly: it shames you to yourself and you know this. You feel this. Please for once try to take yourself seriously. Continue to shitpost, pretend to be someone else and reply to your own comment, but know that the obtuse sensation you feel internally is self-disgust. I really hope you get sorted man. Anonymity doesn't make your problems any less apparent when you air them like this.
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>>2919328
stop being a nigger
>This gure is arrived at by summing the number of detainees in Gulag camps on 1 January
1934 and the arrivals in 1934–40 from ‘other places of detention’. The data used are published in
English in Getty, Rittersporn & Zemskov, ‘Victims of the Soviet Penal System …’, pp. 1048–1049, and in Russian in Zemskov, ‘Massovye repressii …’, p. 314.
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>>2919545
Was it the threat of starvation which impelled Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak to start Apple computers in Jobs' parents' garage?
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>>2918573
Russia wasn't communist unless it was successful.
China's special economic zones are communist but state capitalist when something bad happens.
Marx can be all but tossed in the garbage can when someone calls out historic materialism for the sham that it is.
America's status as a world power is owed to socialism except for the ugly parts of the industrial revolution which was nothing.
>a revolutionary change in the mode of production which has not yet occurred
You'll say of course America owes something to capitalism, as it's simply the first step in the communist progression. But then any revolution that actually takes steps toward establishing socialism falls to pieces the closer it gets.
Communism is, apparently, whatever the fuck is convenient for the supporter.
On the contrary, all the bloodshed spent on establishing this wicked dream makes a pittance out of far less lauded and pop-culturized "capitalist" revolutions, which actually seem to benefit their host countries after all is said and done.
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>>2919580
Post or link the actual fucking evidence. The names of two books which you never read isnt evidence.
>>2919579
Then why arent you posting any of this "incontrovertible" evidence? There are literally tons of documents and archives detailing in depth German war crimes and atrocities, mostly from the Germans themselves. Yet despite the declassification of thousands of former top secret Soviet documents after 1991, not a shred of evidence has emerged to support your fraudulent claims against Stalin
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they were still agrarian, dude. Russia still had serfdom in the 19th century. It's hard to say how much of that economic boom was directly a result of Stalinist policy
Every western country went through massive industrialization like that, Russia was just later because of the turmoil it was going through
We do know by the 70s that the command economy was leading to a profit loss per unit created in many industries. You have that sweet spot with Stalin, which based on the evidence, is very likely due largely in part to the post-war and undeveloped characteristics of the country
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>>2919646
You've been given evidence this whole thread.
>if you're serious
Holodomor, anit-kulak campaign, gulags, killing and imprisonment of workers and farmers, cyclical execution of party members even. solzhenitsyn, dostoyevsky, shostakovich, plenty of those who sought political asylum stand testament. the deaths stand testament. there is thorough citation within this thread and outside of it. Your clinging to the "b-but prove it" is, at this point, just evidence that you refuse to engage with what is put in front of you.
>you're not serious
Please refer to the previous post.
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>>2919681
Still not a shred of evidence. You couldnt manage to drudge up even a single archival document. You are absolutely pathetic.
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>>2919727
>Still not a shred of evidence.
lmao
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>>2919727
Holocaust didn't happen amirite?
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>>2919727
>literally mentions primary sources
holy shit, commies really are just as bad as stormfags
i'm glad you niggers wasted 4 years killing each other on the eastern front
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>>2919681
>he actually think Dostoyevsky, a writer who died in the 1880s, was persecuted by Stalin.
Holy fucking shit! You're literally a fucking cretin. Even my 13 yo niece knows Dostoyevsky died in the 19th century. What the fuck are you doing on a history forum retard?
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>>2919764
i hate niggers
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>>2919727
Literally as bad as holocaust deniers
Mass commieboo ban when?
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>>2919750
Name the sources faggot
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>>2919585
>he thinks that massive leaps in industrialization and per capita income were achieved by communist magic
it's easy to raise the standard of living in any country, just eradicate 30 percent of the population
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>>2919742
There is documented proof of the Holocaust, including speeches in which top Nazis openly discuss the final solution. Meanwhile, there is zero proof of an intentional effort by Stalin to ''starve out the Ukrainians'' as asserted by ''Holodomor'' truebelievers. Not a single speech or document, including top secret documents released in 1991, even hint at such an effort. Nor has a logical reason been given as to why Stalin would intentionally ''starve out'' Ukraine, the most industrialized part of the Soviet Union.
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>English in Getty, Rittersporn & Zemskov, ‘Victims of the Soviet Penal System …’, pp. 1048–1049, and in Russian in Zemskov, ‘Massovye repressii …’, p. 314.
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> Millions of people saw dramatic upwards mobility unheard of in the West at the time.
Yeah and millions saw dramatic downward mobility into their graves unheard of in the West at the time as well until it was exposed by Solzhenitsyn & whats his face.
There's always a cost but how can their figures be trusted? How can we independently study the degree of social mobility in a system that saught to remove social classes? How can we independently study the degree of economic in a country as corrupt & closed off as North Korea in many ways?
How can we define "works"? Works for who? The people that benefit from the infrastructure today or the people that were killed to build the infrastructure at the expense of their food production?
>>2918223
Did the USSR provide those statistics prior to their collapse?
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>>2918189
Surprise surprise, it turns out that having a vast pool of slave labor allows for the rapid building of both infastructure and harvesting of natural resources.
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Not only can you sacrifice people's lives to boost production it also goes to show precisely why GDP is a flawed metric, making pig iron & bread made from sanded timber basically inedible is not the same as producing proper steel structures & high quality food that raises ones standard of living. Even sadder when you think they sacrificed millions to get production that high to produce literal dog shit.
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>>2919841
>he doesnt know what a primary source is
I clearly remember learning what primary sources are in fucking 8th grade.
Just more proof that anti communists are historically illiterate, permascarred by bad parenting, and incapable of critical thinking
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>>2919940
Well they may not be primary sources, you still haven't disproved the numbers presented by them.
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WHAT THE 1% DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW
2017-06-07 05:32:28
Post No.2919982
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Because contrary to every mainstream economic opinion, economic growth is really powered by human sacrifice.
Same goes for the miraculous growth of the Nazi economy, France under Napoleon, and America's rise to power through genocide of native Americans.
Ever wonder why America's economy is the strongest on earth despite pouring most of it into the military industrial complex? Surely if that money was invested into infrastructure the economy would grow even more right? Wrong. And the 1% know this.
Ever wonder why every emerging civilization was so reliant on human sacrifices? Was it superstition? Brutal repression of enslaved peoples? No, its because blood sacrifice to the dark gods is the necessary prerequisite to civilization status.
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>>2919954
Since these numbers are not based on archival documents, facts, or statistics, but instead on the "estimates" of paid psuedo-historians, there's no need to disprove them.
Instead of "estimates", you should look at actual statistics.
>By the request of N.S. Khruschev in February 1954 a report about the number of repressed people was prepared and signed by General Prosecutor (Attorney General) of the USSR R. Rudenko, Interior Minister of the USSR S. Kruglov, Justice Minister of the USSR K. Gorshenin. The report listed the total number of people prosecuted for counter-revolutionary crimes during the period from 1921 to February 1, 1954. During that period the Collegia of OGPU, NKVD Troikas, Special Council of the NKVD, Courts and Military Courts indicted 3,777,380 individuals, including 642,980 who received the death penalty, 2,369,220 with sentences of up to 25 years, and 765,180 exiled or deported. At the time of the report, it further stated, there were 467,946 people in the labor camps and prisons convicted for counter-revolutionary crimes and 62,462 former prisoners in exile.[29]
The only reliable GULAG statistics come from the actual data and statistics of the NKVD, the organization that was operating them.
This data was requested by Kruschev, whose goal was to discredit Stalin. Nevertheless, the numbers are nowhere near the 18 million "estimates" of fraud historians like Conquest.
Further documents were released after the fall of the Soviet Union, confirming these modest figures. Stalin never expected the Soviet Union to collapse or for top secret documents to be released to the public. So why would the NKVD lie to themselves about their own camps? Only clinical retards can believe something so obviously fake and fraudulent.
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>>2918232
Average salary today - 260-530 USD. Before the crisis ~460-1000 USD. But people in Russia are so stupid, they still believe in Putin. Brainwashed animals.
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>>2919904
Best part is: the anon who write this most likely works 8 hours a day at McDonalds, slaving away to enrich some Jew he doesn't even know exists.
Here is what Alexander Zinoviev, a Soviet dissident expelled from the Soviet Union in the '70s, had to say about the Stalin era:
> "The Gulag Archipelago" is a gross falsification of Soviet history. According to it, Stalin and the evildoers were on one side and the rest, the victims, on the other. As if there was no great revolution, no grandiose process. Yes, there were repressions and about 3 million people became their victims. Is this a small number? No, not a large one taking into consideration the occurrence of the grandiose revolution, which the West was fighting since its early days and did not stop the fight, not for a minute… Today the facts are falling through the cracks. However, take any one district and observe the changes, which took place. A certain number of people were repressed, but how many became teachers, doctors, scientists and officers? A large number compared with the number of repression victims. Hundred times larger!"
> "For me and my peers liberation from centuries-long slavery had a tremendous significance. We lived through a lot of things: horrific living conditions, arrests and hardship of the war. And yet, I would not trade my life in those days for any other life. Many millions of my peers in those days felt free and realized they were Citizens with a capital C. We gained tremendous knowledge; the entire country was studying. In those days Russia transitioned from the most illiterate into the most educated country. We were given access to the highest cultural achievements. This was our compensation for the poverty of our daily living. Our pants were ripped and patched, we wore no ties, but in our heads we carried something, which to us meant more than any treasures of the material world."
>>
>>2919875
How do you know North Korea is "corrupt" when you've never been to North Korea and have never talked with anyone from North Korea?
This kind of shameless arrogance is why the rest of the world hates to the bone first world subhumans
>>
>>2919838
I found this book online and it supports none of your claims. Actually, using newly released top secret archival documents, it insists that the GULAG population was much smaller than Conquest and Service had claimed. You can find it for free online here:
http://www.cercec.fr/materiaux/doc_membres/Gabor%20RITTERSPORN/Victims%20of%20the%20Gulag.pdf
It basically says that the GULAG population never exceeded 3 million at any given time. A far cry from your comical claim of 18 million.
>>
>>2920112
First off Maoists Third Worlders need to fuck off and secondly, there may be a small chance North Korea is a utopia, there may also be a small chance that it is nothing like we think it is that every piece of information that's come from there is bullshit but the reports from escaped NOKO's is hard to ignore, the people that have been there and reported on it is hard to ignore.
I am very wary of collectivist shitholes that spew bullshit propaganda to its citizens. North Korea haven't shown anything to the people of the west to warrant a benefit of the doubt, they have shown some hilariously obvious bullshit just like Cuba & the USSR used to.
Do you really think though North Korea reports reliable economic statistics to share with the world? Do you think the USSR did? Hell not even the US currently does, but to my knowledge not on the scale of the other two. At least there's some independent investigation and segregated information available in the West.
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>>2920133
It's not a utopia, nor is it a dystopia. It's a proud, strong, and independent nation that will never bow international Jewry no matter how hard they try to make them
There also exist American soldiers who deserted to North Korea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_in_North_Korea
It proved absolutely nothing.
>>2920133
Clearly, the DPRK's economy has been booming. With the guidance of respected Marshal Kim Jong Un, Juche Korea has revitalized its economy massively. Pic related is a DPRK shopping mall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA7qPidxiQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgmh3GyfJs4
>>
>>2919923
lmao
>>
>>2918252
>Stalin reported
Sounds legit.
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>>2918189
Couldn't buy shit with that money though.
>>
>>2918360
Burden of proof is on you, dude
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>>2918189
>Slaughter countless peoples to build shitty canals and sub-par industrial goods
>Falsify numbers on industrial output
>Put nation decades behind every western nation, even accounting for Russia's backwardness pre-WWI
As somebody who has deep family ties to the Soviet Union and has visited various post Soviet republics like Russia, Stalin's industrialization was the worst thing to happen to the country since the Communist takeover. The numbers are vastly exaggerated and the quality of the output was too poor to compare with the West.
>>
>>2919082
>annex a whole bunch of new territory
Wow look how many more citizens I have now!
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>>2919082
>Soviet population figures
They literally send census takers to death camps for "wrecking" under stalin when the census came 3 million short of party claims
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>>2920592
>he thinks Baltics + East Poland had between 20 and 60 million people (the only way annexations could have made up for the grazilitrons Stalin ruthlessly savaged)
At a certain point it stops being funny and just becomes sad.
>>2920601
What a noob. Havent you read Dr Shlomo Israelovitchsteins new book on the subject? The workers were first painfully assraped personally by Stalin before being skinned alive and shit on by Stalins cronies. You must be some kind of anti semitic shitstain if you havent bought at least two copies.
>>
>>2919064
>China 1850-1950 didn't have famines that killed millions
Kek
I am totally against communism since it is broken, but you are an idiot.
>>
>>2918339
Source?
It actually is true barring some oil sheikdoms.
Russia per capita 1919 = $700
Per capita 1970 = $7000
That's a ten times increase in 50 years. Even Japan didn't get that.
>>
>>2918521
90% of the problem was shitty logistics. Shangdong/Guangdong/Jiangsu (all coastal essentially) provinces thrived while Henan/Hunan starved to death on an apocalyptic scale.
Too simple to just cry "wahh you exported grain!" Who knows. I bet most of it would've rotted before it ended up in a Hunanese mouth.
>>
>>2918189
Well it certinaly brought Russia into capitalism
>>
Hilarious watching rightwingers and communists flinging shit at each other and using bait sources.
Facts that most historians agree upon:
1. Soviet Union 1919-1950 killed a shitload of people for stupid political reasons and bad economic policy. The number is around 3-10 million.
2. The Soviet Union utilized a relatively better economic policy than many western nations from 1919-1950. That is evidenced by how much the Soviet Union grew in this period relative to the Western nations.
3. The Soviet Union was still a shithole in 1950, just much less so. They didn't have anymore famines after this point and they became a global superpower.
If "communism", whatever that means, was so horrible... how did they become a superpower that challenged the USA and allies for 45 years? Furthermore, if communism was so great, why did they never catch up to the Western developed nations? Why did they economically (and socially) stagnate in the 70's? Why did they collapse?
As far as I can tell, the Soviet Union had successes and failures. I wouldn't emulate it or praise it. I also won't say that it was a failure. Overall, that period was the height of Russian power and "communism" was a significant part of that. Their failure to reform the system properly (economically before politically/socially)is what broke them.
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>>2920650
Portions of eastern poland alone has population of 11 and a half million. Enough to cover up the loss of people from all of holodomor and then some. Add to that kuril, bessarabia, all of the baltics and whatever else they stole.
>>
I think a big factor was simply a large country that had war, came at peace and could then rededicate to building things and feeding people rather than waging war. Especially when they had invested more of itself than other western powers such as the US.
The most important reason the USSR collapsed was that they became completely reliant on oil exports. Sure corruption, inefficiency, poor foreign policy contributed but they bet it all on oil and failed.
>>
>>2920813
The most important reason was a loss in faith of the system, especially anong the more moderate communists. I've never seen a great power taken down so fast by itself.
>>
>Death rate higher than GDP rate
>By basic math and proportionality "the economy has grown"
Really makes you think
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>>2920124
>gulag population never exceeded 3 million at any given time
I never said 18 million people were in the gulag at the same time you fucking retarded tankie. Are you sure you're able to read?
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>>2920070
Zemskov's reports are literally based off of NKVD documents you colossal retard. You realize that just because you find a lot of big words in those retarded pamphlets you've been reading doesn't make you smart, right? Its a common misconception by commies such as yourself, but actually most non-disabled people can read words consisting of more than 5 letters.
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>>2921073
Post the reports then
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>>2920103
>3 million people suffer, but it's okay if i'm feeling euphoric at the time
>>
>>2918269
>At the cost of 10-12 million Russian lives
you mean like how America builds prisons for profit?
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>>2918342
>the Japanese managed to do it without killing 5-10% of their population.
have you even watched Samurai X?
also, fuck russia and putin
>>
>>2918206
>Singapore
>Hong Kong
You can't use these tiny states which were formed as trading posts to actual nations.
South Korea and Japan had huge growth but it was partly a result of large investments from the West. China's economy was also centralized when it experienced huge growth so this hardly opposes OP's argument.
As for the second part, that is simply not true. Imperial Russia was slow to industrialize and dealt with the agricultural issues as a result of the land reform problem. The industry really boomed in the 1920s and 1930s under Stalin.
>>
>>2922277
>You can't COMPARE these tiny states which were formed as trading posts to actual nations.
is what I meant to write.
>>
>>2919300
Have the rightwingers who post this ever watched the whole image? Or are they just mesmerised by the sarcastic paiinting of Stalin holding a gun and lots of bodies amassed in front of him?
>>
>>2919982
we all know you are a Predator from outer space so drop the charade honey
>>
this georgian guy from atlanta showers dear leader with the most tender color he could find because иocиф виccapиoнoвич джyгaшвили loved babies
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>>2922244
You're so pathetic that you haven't even bothered to read the book you're citing. Most likely because you're afraid it won't support your narrative.
Quotes straight from the book:
>Mainstream published estimates of the total numbers of "victims of repression" in the late 1930s have ranged from Dmitrii Volkogonov's 3.5 million to 01'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million. (See Table 1.) The bases for these assessments are unclear in most cases and seem to have come from guesses, rumors,, or
extrapolations from isolated local observations. As the table shows, the documentable numbers of victims are much smaller.
>We know that between October 1, 1936, and September 30, 1938, the Military Board of the Supreme Court, sitting in 60 cities and towns, sentenced 30,514 persons to be shot.23 According to a press release of the KGB, 786,098 persons were sentenced to death "for counterrevolutionary and state crimes" by
various courts and extrajudicial bodies between 1930 and 1953.
Literally nowhere in the book is your psychotic 18 million figure. Eat shit braindead faggot
>>
>>2922331
Hey, hi there pal. How are you? You realize I posted TWO sources, correct? I know you've always had a little bit of trouble with that, but its ok, I understand :3
>>
nobody would put a bad dude in an icon, now would they? i guess the debate is over
>>
aлeкcaндp пpoхaнoв wouldn't stand near an image of a bad dude, now would he? i guess it's double over
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>>2922358
What's the other source? There is only one book, called Victims of the Soviet Penal System. "Massovye repressii" is the Russian translation of the same book by the same author.
You're literally mentally crippled. Please sterilize yourself so you don't have children and pollute the human gene pool any further
>>
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>>2918189
>he's never read the Revolution Betrayed
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>>2922598
>bastard Trotskyist
DROPPED
R
O
P
P
E
D
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>>2918189
Everything about this post is dumb.
>>herp only way to industrialize a nation is hilarious barbarity and violence
>>derp only way to get social mobility is through the same
>>herpdederp no way to beat hitler without commies
I mean really, you do know you're a retarded moron who ate whatever it was your marxist professors fed you, right?
>>
>>2918189
Communism decks Value to Life
yeah you know chemistry and shit but your life is sad and monotonous, all of the art and culture of your civilization has been replaced with realism, you have no freedom of speech or expression, and your government is corrupt, oppressive and violent. Rates of depression where super high and the country still couldn't surpass the US. And, China outpaced the USSR as soon as they began economic liberalization in the 70's. Pure Stalinist Communism is unsustainable in the long run. Also, compare the standard of living and rates of mental issues of Communist countries w/ those of Capitalist and semi-Capitalist countries(like China or Cuba) and you'll see the success of Capitalism
>>
>>2922262
patrician taste in anime
>>
>>2922806
I hope you weren't sarcastic
>>
>>2918189
Stalinism didn't prove that Communism works. It proved what most people already know, which is that a powerful leader with a vision and the cooperation of the people below him or her can do great things. This is the story of every great emperor, king, and dictator. It is not dependent upon Communism. Governmental labels only limit the means by which great leaders can achieve great things.
In short, great leaders with control get shit done, squabbling democracies and bureaucracies do not.
However, incompetent leaders with control can fuck things over even harder than a good leader can push things forward. It is in this sense that democracy and bureaucracy saves a nation, by limiting success, but also curbing the potential for total destruction.
>>
>>2920712
Pretty sure we were talking about 1930s ussr.
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>>2922293
Have you? If you think this is somehow pro-left or pro-stalin, then leftwingers really are retarded.
>>
>>2923094
>If you think this is somehow pro-left
look at all the labels that represent the notions that Stalin metaphorically killed: the independence of communsit parties, the moral superiority of cummunism....do you know what those things stand for? Think a little before you start calling others retarded. Better stay in your containment board.
>>
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>>2923109
>what is parody
This is exactly what I meant. The "price of communism" is to replace all the naive socialist theory with genocidal death. The fact that people on the left call pro Stalin people "tankies" while most never properly apologize for Lenin is THE JOKE. It's taking lefty memes and exposing their nonsense.
Maybe you're the one who should go to your containment board on your containment chan, comrade
>>
>>2923130
oh shit, you completely read into that waaaaay too much.
It's judging Stalin from a left of centre point of view.
>>
>>2923151
I'm not reading into anything. I know the image is made by people from the left, I'm just taking its self-evident contradictions and stupidity as the joke itself. The USSR is to the socialists what the jews are to modern day "far right". It's something you're always making excuses for and deep down agree with a lot of it but can't say it in public so you discuss it in edgy image boards instead.
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>>2918189
Nice doctored photo
>>
>>2918189
This thread is indisputable evidence that anti-communists are subhuman.
>>
>>2923237
This thread is solid proof that more communists should stop arguing about their heroes Stalin and Lenin and just immitate them by not being alive.
>>
>>2918272
>The Soviet economic system actually worked really well from 1919-1970. This was during a period when Western economies struggled relatively
>1919-1970
>including the 1920s, 1950s and 1960s
>Western economies struggled
Are you fucking retarded?
>>
>>2922771
How do you know that life for people was sad and monotonous? You've never talked to anyone who lived during that era, so you have no basis on which to make such an assumption.
This kind of arrogance is why 90% of the world's population hates Western societies and peoples
>>
>>2923303
>Are you fucking retarded?
He is a communist. Mental retardation comes with the ideology.
>>2923304
Not him but I've talked to an old Ukranian Lady in her 70's who studied in a University at Moscow and immigrated to the US in back in the 1980's. She said life in the USSR was pretty boring and lifeless and that people were very cold and rude compared to americans. Might have less to do with the regime and more to do with the fact that they are russians, but there you go.
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>>2919300
>own son
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>>2918189
>implying that the state acting like the single national capitalist is representative of worker's control.
Lenin specifically said the nature of the transition of Russia from state capitalist to socialist is what gives it the right to call itself socialist.
>>
>>2923304
>This kind of arrogance is why 90% of the world's population hates Western societies and peoples
Communism is why 90% of the world have a reason to hate Western societies and people's. Mostly because it tells other peoples to hate westerners who are not socialists and that western imperialism and capitalism is the main reason why earth isn't a literal utopia.
>>
>>2923303
even better, he stopped at 1970, not 'the 1970s', when the western economy actually did struggle versus the USSR thanks to the oil crisis.
>are you fucking retarded
Well he's a communists, so yes.
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>>2923348
nah, it's imperialism and capitalism
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>>2923371
Nah. Not for a long time it hasn't. Socialism on the other hand is doing quite the effort in africa right now. I heard communist China is bringing Marx's teachings there, while redistributing their resources rationally. Also, Venezuela's government did a good job trying to demonize western liberalism for years with the exact same rethoric you do, and look at their movement now: thriving, independent from filthy western corruption.
You are the true vanguard of dialectical socialism, anon. It's fascinating to watch.
>>
>>2920153
You are adorable
>>
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Imperial Russia wasn't a medieval country. Stalin's "feat" is impressive enough, you don't need to lie like that to make it bigger than it was.
>>
>Economically and socially, Russia was very similar to India in 1914 in terms of literacy, access to healthcare, and basic living standards.
>Compare Russia and India today and you'll see that it's actually capitalism which doesn't work, not socialism. Even though Russia isn't socialist anymore most of its infastructure and institutions were created in the Stalin era.
Independent India was also socialist until 1991, are you a psychopathic liar or just ignorant?
>>
As it turns out, if you expropriate the peasantry, steal their grain and export it at market prices, you can make enough profit to hire Western technicians to industrialize your country.
The key point here is expropriation and stealing. No one else had the balls to do that, which is why everyone else who tried to imitate Stalin's model of development, such as Perón in Argentina, Nasser in Peru, Butto in Pakistan, and even Mao in China, failed.
>>
>>2923439
>As it turns out, if you expropriate the peasantry, steal their grain and export it at market prices, you can make enough profit to hire Western technicians to industrialize your country.
Don't forget mass slavery is a fairly effective way of building infrastructure. Good ol' Joe was very fond of slave labor.
>>
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>>2918223
thanks communism
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>>2918223
>>2923456
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>>2923393
>dialectical socialism
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>>2918220
Wow, this totally excuses the millions of deaths. Gotta break some eggs to make an omelette
>>
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>>2918223
>>2923457
roughly overlaid for perspective
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>>2923460
>dialectical socialism
I'm sorry, I meant post-modern dialectical marxist-materialism. That's because have nothing better to do than to learn inane jargon from a pretentious revolutionary deathcult.
>>
>>2920112
Hey Kim, welcome to /his
>>
>>2920999
trips confirms
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>>2918189
Why is this picture of an actor who played Stalin accepted as an actual historical image of Stalin? Is it because they're trying to hide how (((swarthy))) he really was?
>>
>>2919681
>dostoyevsky
I was actually taking you seriously up until this point
>>
>>2923462
>muh gureiliion
>>
>>2923456
Thanks New Deal psuedo socialism. Thanks FDR who was a close friend of Stalin.
>>
>>2923210
Provide evidence that it's doctored
>>
>>2918189
>that it's actually capitalism that doesn't work
Look at Europe/the U.S between 1600-1800, then tell me that.
>>
>>2925802
Europe and the US were pretty fucking horrific in that time period
>>
>>2924235
Stalin was Georgian, therefore 100% Caucasian and white.
>>
>>2918189
What does communism have to do with it? Of course you can make rapid progress in large projects if you treat the entire citizenry as a pool of conscripts for labor. Peter the so-called Great did the same thing in the early 18th century. These are not the fruits of communism, they are the fruits of authoritarianism. So the question is, are the fruits worth the blood and mangled bodies, the pain of the torture victims, the broken families, the skulls with bullet holes in them, the suppression of free-thinking, and so on?
>>
>>2918189
You're comparing 1914 Russia to Stalinist and post-Stalinist Russia, but this comparison is misleading. What you really should compare is 1914 Russia to what 1940s-50s Russia might have been had the Czarist regime been replaced by a more moderate, liberal government rather than by Bolsheviks. Certainly the Tsarist regime had to go - it was failing badly, becoming more and more ridiculous and out of place in the modern world. But if you were to argue that the Bolsheviks did a better job modernizing Russia than possible alternatives would have done, you would be arguing that there is no way Russia could have modernized without the death and suffering of millions of people, and I doubt that is actually true.
>>
>>2920710
> GDP/capita of Japan in 1945 : $1,444
> GDP/capita of Japan in 1984 : $14,770
That's a 1000% increase in 40 years.
> GDP/capita of China in 1976 : $852
> GDP/capita of China in 2007 : $6724
800% increase in 30 years
> GDP/capita of South Korea in 1962 : $1,389
> GDP/capita of South Korea in 2002 : $15,763
1130% in 40 years
The Soviet Union is really slow compared to the far east. Doubly so considering that none of these 3 countries exported raw materials to buoy their numbers.
>>
>>2925839
Communism and the occasional nationalistic dictatorship can be very good at mass development because they're concerned with the public good rather than the wealth and power of whoever's in charge
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