Did Deng Xiaoping change China for the better or Chiang Kai Shek

>>2908967
Deng Xiaoping will be remembered as one of the towering figures of the 20th century, he did more than any one person to put China on it's current path.

>>2908967
Chang kai shek is a corrupt incompetent leader memed into relevance because of evil commies

>>2908981

Preach

Reminder the KMT is dying a very slow and drawn out death, nobody on the continent or Taiwan respects them

>>2908967
Chiang would be even worse and more corrupt than Mao.

>>2908981
I've read that Xiaoping was more an opportunist than anything, and that his track record when serving under Mao suggests he was no angel either. He was also in charge during the tianamen square manifestations, meaning social/intellectual liberalisation was not something he was particularly fond of either.

>>2909044
Dubs, but that's pushing it.
Mao pretty high up there when it comes too incompetence

>>2909074

Every politician is an opportunist, but Deng is the kind that does a lot of good for the country with them.

He actually came to power right before with Liu Shaoqi after the Great Leap Forward, and started implementing market reforms. All that was undone during the cultural revolution and Liu ended up dying in disgrace. Deng himself was mistreated by the Red Guard during the cultural revolution, so he doesn't have a high tolerance/opinion of revolutions, student revolutionaries, or their beliefs.

I think the most important thing about judging historical characters is to take their actions in context. China has been in turmoil since the 1850's, and Deng's personal experiences would lead him to prioritize stability at any cost.

>>2909148
>Every politician is an opportunist
It's a fair point. I don't actually dislike the guy and I understand how his free economic zone policy helped china to develop and open itself, and how critical that decision was in shaping modern china. I have a pretty bad knowledge of sinology, but I've always been always curious how those reformers like Gorbachev ended up in power, and in many it turns out they didn't go in initially with the intent to liberalize their countries this much.

Also, what was Xiaoping's role/position at the time of the gang/coup of 6 after mao's death in 1976? Why was he not targeted, and how did come to be the one to rise on top?

>>2909190

Gang of 4, which was led by Mao's wife, Jiang Qing. Jiang Qing had played a critical role in the Cultural Revolution and the Gang considered themselves leaders of the Radial wing of the party. They attempted to seize power after Mao's death. However, the person that Mao appointed to replace Premier Zhou Enlai as head of government was Hua Guofeng, who got the job due to his personal loyalty to Mao. Hua Guofeng saw the radicals as a challenge to his power, so he had the Gang of 4 purged, and also conveniently blamed every bad thing from the cultural revolution on the Gang of 4, absolving Mao of any fault in the process.

However, Hua was an outsider, and his support in the upper party echelons was quite thin. He rehabilitated Deng Xiaoping to lend himself some legitimacy and symbolize the rehabilitation of everyone who was purged during the cultural revolution. While Deng was out of power, he was never truly out of influence, since he had been party leadership for decades before falling out of favor. Once back in power, Deng was able to gather more support by using the unpopularity of the cultural revolution to purge radicals from the party, and replace them with people who were themselves purged during the cultural revolution, securing their support in the process.

Once Deng had enough support, he forced Hua Guofeng to resign, and ran the country through his proxies who held supreme office.

>>2909275
>gang of 4
AH I KNEW IT, I just didn't want to be a fag and check wiki. Thanks for the detailed post anon, screencapped for future reference. I remember some bits and here and there but it's been a while since I've seriously read anything about china. Will definitely do something about that.

>>2909303

No probems, I'm just glad someone is actually talking history on /his/ instead of being a /pol/tard.

Chiang Kai-shek was an autistic moron who lost the chinese civil war because of his uselessness, and most of Taiwan's economic growth and reforms happened under his son Chiang Ching-kuo.

>>2908967
Chiang Kai-Shek wasn't suited to rule his back yard, let alone China.

>Dr. Sun died in 1925
[internal screaming]

>>2909041
Fuck that.

For all of their problems and mistakes, the KMT is still the descendants of the Tongmenghui in 1911 who bore the hopes of China in rejuvenating the nation and reviving Zhonghua. Until the day of Reunification, or when the PRC finally lives up to everything Dr Sun believed in they cannot be allowed to die.

If they die what will it all have been for? The fight against the Japanese, the suffering of the Civil War, the Warlords and the betrayals? It would all have been for nothing and then who will remember the NRA soldiers who fought from 1937 to 1945?

No, it cannot happen and I will not let it happen.

>>2909074
I don't blame him. Letting that sort of thing get out of hand would be a disaster. China is a big ship and must be steered carefully and slowly. Especially given the recent clusterfuck of history and the example of what instability brings.

>>2909009
>>2909044
>>2911474
>>2911490
Chiang Kai-Shek was only one who able to lead KMT, unify half of China and keep warlords under control before CCP rise to power, he was the only legitimate government leader who could organize whole China to fight against Jap invaders and never surrender! China can be the winner of WW2, the founder of UN and permanent members of the UN security council were all because of him and KMT.

The foundation of Taiwan's economic boom was actually also laid by CKS, his regime preserved a large part of traditional Chinese culture, moreover, education, agriculture and manufacture reforms were already conducted before his son took in charge, his son was merely the enforcer.

>>2912072
>>2912072
Please PRC is commie in name only. Their basically nationalists now anyways

>>2913149
I know someone may argue China won WW2 was manly because of US, but without the perseverance of Chiang's leadership and diplomatic efforts with allies, China could never uphold the situations till America nuked Japan.

>>2913200
*mainly

>>2908967
>>2912072
>>2913149
>>2913172
The terrible irony is that today's China is probably closer to Chiang's ideal than that of Mao: a capitalist state approximating the borders of the late Qing, nominally united under a singular party with absolute control over the military.

>>2913326
Lol this.
Literally no reason for Taiwan to be independent anymore

>>2913403
It'd get flooded with economic refugees and the new regulations would stop one of it's main street economic contributors; smuggling corrupt money out of China.