Why do countries with the most openly sexual societies have the

>>2838865
Desensitisation and the eventual death of love

>>2838865
It's not a rule, though. Take a look at Polan or European Russia.

It's more about expectations of society and money required to properly raise a family.

People generally use contraceptives when engaging in libertine sexual behavior and generally don't when rearing a family.

It's really not that complicated.

Both low birth rates and open sexuality stem from the availability of contraception.

>>2838865
That isn't a hard-rule.

But sex in industrialized countries becomes more and more disconnected from the need for reproduction, as the mentality of people changes from "children provide labour" or "being cared for by my children is my retirement plan" to "children are something I must labour for, rather than something that labour for me" and "I must save up capital to help my children and their children for as long as I live".

>>2838865

why does a machine with all the valves off and all the screws loose generate low useful output?

sexuality is like a force or programe acting itself out in a human population, libidinal force and all that, its regulated or sublimated so it manifests in ways that are practical, things become sanctioned and ritualised so that the culture perpetuates itself steadily, so things sort of work, and one of the things that just works in that aspect is normative stable relationships and procreation
you can almost get it from the way people dress, the more ''repressed'' the clothing the more sexual it realy is cause its a play on biopower, like a valve is a preassure regulator in a machine
the point is in such a setup you dont realy get asked if you like it or not, its just how shit works where you live, you just do it that way, its normal

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>>2838921
>But sex in industrialized countries becomes more and more disconnected from the need for reproduction, as the mentality of people changes from "children provide labour" or "being cared for by my children is my retirement plan" to "children are something I must labour for, rather than something that labour for me" and "I must save up capital to help my children and their children for as long as I live".

>>2838865
Fuck she's ugly

>>2838921
Is it a flaccid rule then?

>>2838946
How does it feel to have such shit taste?

>>2838921
>But sex in industrialized countries becomes more and more disconnected from the need for reproduction

Which makes zero sense at all. I think it's more likely that people are propagandizing young women to not have children.

I mean, every time I hear materialist/marxist arguments for social structure, they never link anything causally, they just casually claim that this is a law of society.

>>2838893
>that feel when this post is the truth
>people will ignore it because it doesn't match their political agenda

>>2838953
She's kinda fat. Not a very attractive smile and her cheekbones are shaped kinda funny. You got a thing for big girls?

>>2839012
Only in America does that constitute "fat".

She's literally completely normal looking.

>>2838865
Openly sexual cultures fall into depravity very easily. Hedonism rules the day. The natural order of alphas fucking 80% of prime women while betas fap and get used up hags later if at all returns. Combine with birth control and you get Germany/Sweden/Japan.

Chaste cultures allow every man the opportunity to breed legitimate heirs and when combined with rustic ideals of "big family is good" you get a booming population.

>>2839055
>Openly sexual cultures fall into depravity very easily.

Except "openly sexual cultures" are currently the most powerful cultures in the world.

>>2839057
> depravity is not compatible with power

>>2839057
Actually this, the more "chaste" a culture is, the more shit the shithole it exists in, Islamic countries being the prime example.

>>2839068
Depravity is just your word for degeneracy, and both those words are just right-wing contentless jargon.

>>2839057
I wonder about that. Aside from tiny but highly skilled professional armies the West is mostly a paper tiger. The civilian population is very soft and unwilling to fight if needs be. And even the "highly skilled professional armies" thing is really only true for the US, Britain and France. The rest of the West can only survive because they benefit from the security umbrella offered by those three. I doubt the West could survive serious and lasting world troubles.

>>2838865
Its all about female education.The more education you give to females, the longer they go without marrying and the more they work. Its just that areas where women are repressed they also don't get any education.

>>2839074
I don't think so. Two words stand for two meanings. For me depravity is sexual freedom pushed so far it creates specific social problems.

>>2839077
>The civilian population is very soft and unwilling to fight if needs be.

And why would it need be exactly?

You right-wing fags need to stop romanticizing your own hatred of life and commit suicide instead of hoping for another world war so you can die for God, King and Country.

rubbers

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It's obvious.

>>2839098
Well he's not wrong. Remember the DoD considers obesity rates in the general population to be a national security threat.

>>2839111
25% of the U.S population have too low IQ to even join the U.S Army anyway, so why should it matter?

>>2839111
It's a strategic investment tho, in a case of famine, an average American could go without food for much longer than an average middle easterner.

>>2839120
Obesity rates can be controlled, iq not so much.

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>>2839057
NOW they're openly sexual

They GOT HERE by being chaste

>>2839098
>And why would it need be exactly?

Because Fukuyama's end of history is bullshit and conflicts have and will happen again and again? Are you retarded or just ignorant?

>>2839130
Funny you mention that as the gulf states are also among some of the most obese in the world.

>>2839072
>Hong Kong is a shithole

Funny, I guess Turkey is a paradise now

>>2839153
Burgers and Saudis were made for each other for we will control the world with our generous girths alone.

>>2839139
>Obesity rates can be controlled

No it can't. You can't simultaneously control the eating habits of your own population and still be a liberal Western democracy.

>>2838865
China is pretty repressed right? Their birth rate is around 1.56. Japan is at 1.42. Singapore is at 1.25. South Korea is at 1.2.

US is one of the most open sexual societies and its birth rate is 1.86. UK is at 1.83. Sweden is at 1.89. France is at 2.0.

So uhhh your argument falls flat.

Both low birth rates and sexual liberation are consequences of stable societies with high standards of living.

>>2839176
The Chinese government literally shoots you if you have more than one kid

>>2839150
Look at any war and please explain what the civilian population does during the war.

They either die or make ammunition, or both.

You don't have to be a hard-ass to die from bombing raids or make ammunition.

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>>2839175
What are vice taxes and propaganda efforts? Worked fine for cutting back on cigarette smoking.

But nah man, penalizing stuffing your gullet with processed garbage and encouraging exercise is like...fascism mannnnnm

>>2839175
>You can't simultaneously control the eating habits of your own population and still be a liberal Western democracy.

Not with brute force, but you can encourage a culture that values health and make healthy activities easier.

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>>2839186
It's literally Stalinism.

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>>2839194
>but you can encourage a culture that values health and make healthy activities easier.

Sounds familiar.

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>>2839203
Oy vey as soon as they divert some tax dollars into encouraging public fitness they'll be shoving us into the ovens in no time! Bad! Buy more French fries and ramen if you don't it's LITERALLY HITLER.

STOP FAT SHAMING TEH POTUS YOU FUCKING NAZI

>>2839215
amerilards are disgusting I hope all the fit illegal mestizos who do brutal back breaking labor 10 hours a day BBQ them all

>>2839215
Memes aside, the state shouldn't encourage anything.

It has no place in the moral life of people other than prosecute people who break the law.

You can't be a moral person if you're not free.

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>>2839245
I NEED TO EAT
10 BIG MACS A DAY
PLEASE DO NOT
TREAD ON ME

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abortion and contraceptives are by definition suppressants.
Humane Vitea was a documentary.

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>>2839203
Please, don't search excuses for being the fat guy in the room. Promoting healthy habits is not right-wing nor leftist. It's a strategy to decentralize public health policies to citizens themselves. It helps in reducing public costs of healthcare. You're not to blame if you don't adopt these habits.

>>2839272
>Promoting healthy habits is not right-wing nor leftist

Promote them all you want, but the state shouldn't.

>>2839240
The Mexicans have even higher rates of obesity, I blame their love of coca cola.

>>2839288
I don't understand, why the state shouldn't promote healthy habits?

>>2839074
I've literally seen anons explain what degeneracy is in precise words countless times on this very board, every single time that happens, you retards who say degeneracy is a buzzword literally vanish in thin air and reappear in later threads always spouting the same nonsense.

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>>2838865
Because most males are sexually irrelevant.
Give women sexual freedom and they'll discard a not indifferent chunk of the male population, and for good reasons too: most men are truly disgusting, both in looks and in soul, you would not even think about them, had you been born gay.

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>>2839272
>Promoting healthy habits is not right-wing nor leftist
uh, honey, you're wrong.

>>2839538
>anon says nazi ideas are shit
>some nazifag says to anon that shitting is thus a nazi activity
>anon stop shitting, and dies painfuly in his own shit

>>2839020
>only in the fattest country on earth is this fat woman fat

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>>2839537
>t. fat, basement-dwelling autist LARPing as a roastie

>>2839196
Making kids run half naked covered in freezing water through the snow seems pretty fucked up to me

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>>2839627
It's actually quite popular in Russia, it makes your immune system stronger.

>>2839657
>it makes your immune system stronger.
doubt.jpg
How would that even work?

>>2839716
Basically this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming#Health_benefits , but without the risks of full-blown winter swiming.

>>2839077
>The civilian population is very soft and unwilling to fight if needs be.
>saying this in a post 9/11 where thousands of Americans rushed to their deaths in the Iraq war so that they might avenge a small slight
People will always fight where there's a need.

>>2838956
>Which makes zero sense at all
I disagree, the argument to me makes a lot of sense. Subsistence agriculture encourages high birth rates, so as to provide labor on the farm. To an extent, this could also apply in an industrialized country with crap child labor laws, but when children are given state-sponsored education and are kept out of sweatshops, they cease to be a source of income, and instead become a liability, to an extent.
This doesn't actively rule out large families, but it does make it much more financially draining to support one than in an industrialized nation. I think it seems like a much more concrete explanation than crackpot theories of anti-natalist propaganda, especially considering the cringey commercials popping up now telling people to have more kids.

>>2839952
>especially considering the cringey commercials popping up now telling people to have more kids.
Where do you live? Never seen one personally. Italy?

>>2839982
I'm American, actually. There's been a couple commercials about it, mainly from cereal companies (which makes sense. They do need to keep their consumer base of 4-12 year olds at a healthy level, after all.) I'll see if I can find the one that I remember from Honey Nut Cheerios.

>>2839982
>>2840048
Here it is. Be warned, though:it is really fucking annoying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQFCt-aJw9Q

>>2838986
>>2838893
poland and european russia are hardly sexually repressed. they may not be outright feminists but they're certainly not on the level of muslim or african countries.

>>2840068
Meh. That's still a far cry from what I'd call pro baby making propaganda. Get back to me when the Reich's Office for Fertility and Family planning is running commercials every half hour.

>>2838956
Its propaganda its just very difficult. Economically it's hard to raise a family on one persons salary. You need two but then who is left to care for the child? Not to mention all the costs it takes to take care of one. You also have to factor in people aspiring to a dream they have. Most of thr time you got to drop that once a child enters. It's a huge sacrifice people are less willing to do cause they want to do something with their lives or its just too costly to raise a child i our economic situation.

Why don't we pay 3rd world surrogate mothers to birth genetically modified superhumans?

>>2839473
In some places it's healthier than their contaminated water. Other places they drink it as a replacement for alcohol in an effort to combat alcoholism.

>>2840158
I'm pretty sure they could just buy bottled water if it's that they want.

>>2839176
Not exactly. China's not all that sexually repressed and neither are the other east asians.
Also your stats are outdated.

A few counterexamples are meaningless though. For example, Iran has 1.8 and Saudis 2.2 but they are as fucking repressed as it gets. Meanwhile Israel isn't all that repressed but has 2.4.

There are three major factors in birth rates
1. Economic development.
2. Female education levels
3. Religious bullshit like banning contraception, ostracizing females out of wedlock, or severly limiting abortion.

>>2838865
Some of my relatives didn't even know that sex caused pregnancy until a kid popped out
It's probably due to lack of sex education

t. Burger

>>2839141
>Victorian period
Idk if you've ever read much about that time, but they were secretly depraved as fuck

>>2840073
You have to think within framework of simmiliar cultures. If you go too far, you can't make reliable comparisms.

>>2839055
It is in fact easier for a guy like yourself in the western world to reproduce now than at any point in history. Ye Olde days you pine for were in fact full of monopolized sexual access where the only way vast amounts of men could get laid was through prostitution or rape.

>>2840073
Sexual repression is a meme. Sexual openness.

>>2839952
Then why do poorer demographics in industrialized nations have higher birthrates? That shouldn't be the case according to your logic because they are such a massive liability. In fact we should see much higher birth rates from the rich or middle class than the poor.

>>2840330
Same with sexual openness I mean as well.

>>2838953
It's not shit taste, it's just you never seen really attractive women. Let me guess, are you burger?

>>2840318
That is... ahistorical.

>>2839104
Women just date older men then if their age cohort is shit regardless.
My sister the rebel married at 22 to a guy who's 36 because she just didn't want to wait for guys her age to get their shit together.

>>2840341
Lithuanian. And anyway I never said she was 10/10, but a 5 or 6 for sure. Hardly "fuck she's ugly" tier.

>>2839104
>s-stop playing your "vidya games" and pay attention to us!

truly epic

>>2838891
>implying people having more babies now anything about love
it's all about their natural animalistic instincts - procreate and then proceed to die.

third worlders have nothing else going on besides this...

>>2840499
>third worlders have nothing else going on besides this...

Are you really that much of an asshole

>>2840510
He probably just doesn't know what he's talking about. The effect is the same, but you can hardly blame him for falling for a meme pushed on him for his whole life.

>>2840510
>>2840516
Third worlders fuck constantly to pass the time because they don't have TVs and Netflix and don't have much of a concept of "fiscally responsible parenting", how is that contentious?

>>2840400
Don't the Baltic states have more women than men? Also a tanking birth rate, what's up with that?

>>2840565
All the men are total messes. I know a guys who returned immigrated to my country but there who are drowning in women because they aren't total alcoholic messes and are doing decent.

>>2839182
it's been abolished long ago, please go and update your knowledge with google right now

Poor people have more children and are also more religious all over the world. Duhh dur it's not a mystery

>>2840565
It's mostly poor economy compounded with post-Soviet misery that's to blame.

>>2839245
>Drinking the """""Enlightenment""""" kool-aid this much

>>2840655
So you mean that poor and religious people are more biologically succesful?

>>2840068
Horrifying

>>2840158
>In some places it's healthier than their contaminated water.
I've seen this first hand in the Caribbean.

>Other places they drink it as a replacement for alcohol in an effort to combat alcoholism.
This I have never heard. How does this work?

>>2838865
you answered your own question

>>2841048
no? more offspring doesnt = more biologically "successful," whatever that means. there's no reason why a bunch of shitty individuals is biologically preferable to fewer hyper-capable individuals

>>2841153
not that guy, but it's well known that middle and upper classes have historically had less children than the lower classes. so you can argue that the stupid your children are the more likely your line won't die out. pretty ironic

>>2841156
Rich families had large families just as much as poor peasants did a century or so ago. Being a well off rich guy with a gaggle of kids used to be fashionable.

>>2841156
>more likely your line won't die out
Having a bunch of kids is insurance against high infant mortality. If you're rich, you can basically assume that your one or two children will a) live and b) be really successful. It's the same with animals; larger animals have fewer offspring

>>2838946
we don't care that you're a fag, just don't shitpost everywhere.

>>2839182
You actually just pay a fine.
Also it's been relaxed to the 2 child rule.

>>2840927
It really isn't "this much".

It was quite normal just 20 years ago in my country that the state shouldn't be moralizing about people's habits.

Openly sexual = rich cunts.
Repressed sexualities = poor cunts ruled by regressive and retarded people

>>2841164
>>2841153
true. but it all depended on the ideological alignment of the period. christian ideology of the aristocrats guaranteed a high birthrate in premodern europe. the ideology of our present upper classes (and middle classes) is benignly anti-natalist. In other societies like ancient rome and sparta you can also find examples of a constantly shrinking elite class that was partly responsible for the crises of those societies. Ancien regime france also started to have this problem as coitus interruptus became fashionable among the aristocracy in the 18th century.

>If you're rich, you can basically assume that your one or two children will a) live and b) be really successful.
yes but a living children is far from a guarantee that your lineage will perpetuate down the line. all you needed was an untimely illness or a deadly war to kill off a hallowed lineage that only had one or two children from generation to generation. I suppose everyone didn't think that far ahead and were content to believe their children would be fine in the future. then again, i've heard it said that if you look at the statistics a lot of the richest families in any society have passed their wealth through the family for several hundred years.

>>2839606

Females look for the top 20% of guys, guys look for the top 80% of females.

It's a fuzzy heuristic but it works better than pretending interaction between genders is equal.

>>2841311
CONT.

Birthrate is mostly (imo) determined by the cost of raising a kid to adulthood.

If you need to put your kid through college just to get a job filing documents, then potential parents will withdraw from child raising until they have sufficient capital. But by the time they have 'sufficient" capital, it's too late to have a child.

>>2841319

And "sufficient" capital has been tanked by rescission after recession and the expanding amount of huge bubbles.

It's been tanked by female competition in the workplace.
>Working towards math degree
>See a job opinion for simple IT shit at a government agency
>Small Indian (asia) chick with tits gets the job despite having none of the qualifications

I guess I better go trans and get huge tit implants to get a simple government job.

>>2838946
>>2839012

Bait

Gigi is 10/10

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>>2841326
>Small Indian (asia) chick with tits gets the job despite having none of the qualifications

And you know how?

>>2838900
nah
stems from the education of women

that european old guy who used statistics to make his points in TED talks did a lecture about this

the strongest correlate to number of children per woman is average level of education per woman

everything else, availability of contraception, level of religiosity, availability of food was an inferior predictor

>>2841498

We took some shit-lib sociology class together. Is it outside the realm of reason that betas and spazzes would want a cute girl in their department over competent men?

>>2841268
Presuming you're talking about America, isn't this not the case? Both parties have continuously expressed sympathies towards regulating social mores with federal/state policies. Democrats with their occupation with anti-negrorism and obesity and Republicans with abortion and bent marriage.

>>2839104
>women losing out to video games

How pathetic can you get

>>2842319
You are just trying to make up excuses why you didn't get it but she did.

>>2839537
And that in turn leads to an ever growing population of pissed off and horny men causing trouble. Women having the ability to choose who they have sex with no negative consequences imposed upon them for promiscuity is a bad thing for social stability.

>>2842804
Nah, he's probably right. People will hire women just to serve as eye candy.

>>2842847
>And that in turn leads to an ever growing population of pissed off and horny men causing trouble.

You are ironically painting men in such a cringed light.

>>2842849
>>cringe
Irrelevant buzzword popular with morons. We are ultimately animals at the end of the day, and when our needs aren't met, problems ensue.

>>2842848
You can say that about any woman to shit on them getting hired.

Here's the thing guys like you and him will bitch regardless because you feel entitled to these jobs because you feel that you deserve it and anyone who doesn't fit your criteria of worthy doesn't.

>>2842851
You think there only one way of getting poon?

>>2842853
Nice bad faith assumptions you're making there chief. Anyone who has dealt with a HR department knows full well what that guy is talking about.

>>2839057
Not for much longer.

>>2842856
Depends on what you mean. Rape is both immoral and severely punished by the law. Prostitution is illegal in much of the US, although it depends on whether or not the law is actually enforced all that much where you live. Arrangements are reliable enough, but require lots of money, which is something the average person just isn't all that good at acquiring.

That leaves you with dating which is very difficult for the average man, as it requires both lots of time and effort improving ones physical appearance and personality, while simultaneously requiring you to maintain salaried employment.

I personally just hire prostitutes and don't give two shits about the law, but that doesn't mean I don't sympathize with the average fellow.

>>2839838
Iraq has been disastrous for western attitudes towards war. The public has become more jaded than ever. If a real need foe boots comes up today, do you honestly think Timmy Tumblr or Ronald Reddit or anime masturbation 4chan will sign?

>>2842866
I worked in one and I saw guys like him all the time.

>>2839139
Eugenics

>>2841153
Literally the one way that nature decides what is and isn't successful is by if it continues to pass on it's genes.

The childless are biological dead ends. Wasted genetic investment. Failures as lifeforms.

>You are just trying to make up excuses why you didn't get it but she did.

I didn't apply dumbass. But I know people who, met or exceeded every "qualification", got the sham interviews.

>>2842896

She literally had no qualifications but would be "trained on the job anyways".

Meanwhile veterans who've seen war, dealt with intense time-strained situations, and dealt with relatively complicated systems are being given the rope a dope in government jobs.

If she wasn't a girl and if she didn't have tits, she would not have gotten the job. I'm not necessarily angry at her getting the job, I'm angry that hiring personnel try to maintain face by scheduling interviews with schmucks who will NEVER get the job and only serve to act as proof that they did due diligence in going through multiple candidates.

>>2842896
And that in turn reveals your own biases. The people you think aren't capable probably actually are. It's just that employers now have unreasonable standards for the average employee.

>>2842881

Legalized prostitution would drop the number of rates in much the same way legal porn dropped the number of rapes.

Legalized sex dolls and VR "dolls" might turn rape into a ghost story.

>>2842892

If they had simply stated the actual objectives for the war, the DoD would not have participated in one of the most outrageous and obscene scams in history.

1. Stop Saddam from opening an alternate oil market not dependent on dollars.
and
2. Cause chaos to appease the House of Saud so that no unified entity can stand up to them in the region

>>2842954
CONT.

But instead "stopping evil terrorist supporting dictator" and "bringing democracy" were stated objectives.

So the absurdity and pomp of Paetraeus' COIN strategy and time and energy where fucking distractions from the true objectives of the war. No ME country is going to defect from the dollar system for a while because they saw what happened to Iraq.

Even fucking ISIS sells oil in dollars.

>>2842948

It's not even that necessarily. It's a situation where a position is open and somebody's cousin or kid is given a guaranteed job in that position. But to ward off accusations of nepotism, they have to schedule sham interviews to maintain the face of propriety.

Similar dynamic happens when a hot girl applies to a position.

>>2838865
The actual answer:
both repressed sexuality and high birth rates result from a lack of education and high societal insecurity

>>2842991

Cost of raising a child to adulthood dumbass.

A farmer in Sudan doesn't have to expend much capital to raise a child. In fact, they're positive depositors as help on the fields. If even one of the kids becomes successful, the gamble on multiple kids pays off for the family.

>>2842949
>Legalized prostitution would drop the number of rates in much the same way legal porn dropped the number of rapes.

Fucking lol. Rape isn't because of not getting pussy. It's because of power. Most men who rape can EASILY get sex.
Also rape rates drop because of education, awareness and social change in regards to Teaching boys and young adults how to interact with women.

>>2843014
>It's because of power. Most men who rape can EASILY get sex.

The feeling of power is stimulated in sex you fucking retard.

They only get easy pussy when they are known for rape and women mail them love letters because they're demented scanning systems that heavily prioritize dark triad traits.

>Also rape rates drop because of education, awareness and social change in regards to Teaching boys and young adults how to interact with women.

You're fucking trolling me. Simulating sex simulates the feeling of power and letting off the steam for sex and power lowers the pent-up drives that cause men to rape.

>>2843025
CONT.

Once again, I don't think you're properly appreciating how fucking stupid you are.

Do you think education even glances the drives of actual rapists? Do you think your retarded sexual harassment classes persuade men from rape?

"Wow that was a neat class, I guess I shouldn't rape'

Jesus fucking christ I hope you're a fucking troll.

>>2843025
>>2843029
Why are you so mad?

>>2843033

Because mad is the mildest reaction to the nonstop cognitive pollution that has occurred throughout my life.

Seeing people use retarded strategies over and over and over again, usually with a dash of moralizing the problem-space they're trying the retarded strategies within.

Seeing a woman shit in the middle of the street of LA and seeing a homeless dog pick up an aborted fetus from an alleyway and chewing it in front of a mexican restaurant near Skid Row.

I could go on and on about shit no reasonable human being should ever have to go through.

>>2843037
Fuck off with your woe is me Faggottry. I saw my cousins die in a bombing and a kid drown then washed with the tide but I don't try to garner foe symptathy
No one gives a shit.

>>2843045

How am I trying to garner "sympathy"? I'm explaining why I'm mad.

Stop projecting your shit onto me.

>>2843048
CONT.

Not to mention you're the one retarded enough to believe "education" affects men who commit the vast majority of rapes.

>>2838865
Opportunity costs. Having children is now considered a burden. Kids are a huge investment of time and money.
Medical advancements pretty much made the point of having more kids to make sure at least some survive moot, so instead of the flu killing 8 of your kids with 2 surviving now you can be pretty confident that unless they get some horrible type of cancer they'll survive.
So better living standards and medicine drop birthrates.
Once survival is guaranteed some people, especially in Eastern Europe, who, let's be real here have a much better life than third worlders have another problem, and the wish for their children to have good, carefree lives. Now post communist countries are much poorer than western countries and ergo it's much harder to provide your children with all the luxuries you want them to have.

Sure, there are some who don't want kids, purely because they're hedonists and don't want responsibilities, but i wager the main reasons are still economic.
I personally want to have kids, more than anything else in life, i want to be a father first, and a good one at that, but i'm not planning on having them until i can provide for them, and that includes at least having a master's and a secure high paying job (if you can call it that since i'm from a post gommie country).

>>2840167
Bottled water is several times more expensive than Coke.

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why do young men always find something else to blame when they cant reproduce
its like they are all selfish manchildren