Where did the indo-europeans come from and how were they so succesful

>>2805245
>Where did the indo-europeans come from

Your map shows this.

>how were they so succesful in colonising Eurasia?

Spoked wheel chariots.

>>2805245
Atlantis

>>2805248

I was looking for a more in depth answer. Wheels just means you can travel further..

Was it conquest? Simply superior technology so everyone wanted in?

>>2805262

Languages sometimes spread without conquest, but the wholescale transformation of cultures AND the presence of Indo-European genes across the area of expansion pretty much proves it was a violent conquest.

>Wheels just means you can travel further..

This is hilariously retarded. The chariot wasn't the first wheeled vehicle. It was, however, THE superweapon that utterly dominated all warfare from its invention all the way down to the end of the bronze age (and even longer in the peripheries, such as Britain).

>>2805272
Also, horses

>>2805245
I remember reading that there's a plague-resistant genes in Indo-European DNA, which may explain why Old Europe collapsed and the Indo-Europeans filled the void.

>>2805262
>Wheels just means you can travel further..
Anon, imagine you're a pre-chariot civilization that build the most powerful infantry army in history up to that point.
Now some fucker shows up with an army of chariot riders shooting arrows at you until you lose. What do you do? Rush at them? They can shoot arrows at you until you're close, and then ride away. Shoot arrows at them? Even if your troops are good enough to hit them consistently, they can just ride away and meet you somewhere else when it's in their favor again.
Logistics win wars, but mobility wins battles. That's why cavalry and tanks have always been used to finish or disrupt armies after they break contact.

>>2806285
I thought cavalry only became prominent in the middle ages. The Romans and Greeks mostly relied on infantry.

>>2805245
Anatolian Hypothesis look truer since most R1b are in France/Britain/Spain

>>2806307
Persian, Scythian, Macedonian armies were all cavalry heavy dude. Even into the Roman period, they used Numidian cavalry as auxiliaries and allies. The steppe tribes whenever they amassed under a great leader would be huge threats to the empires they bordered. Parthians and Huns BTFO the Romans on several occasions before they were stopped. The region that the Indo-Europeans spread through was flat land that was well suited to chariots.

>>2806591
89 IQ tier post

>>2806591

Nope. Modern distribution is irrelevant. Only ancient distribution matters and R1b is found in pre-Neolithic DNA from Romania to the Volga.

Hyperborea.

>>2805272
> THE superweapon that utterly dominated all warfare from its invention

There is no evidence of chariots in Britain and much of Western Europe before the early iron age, I hope you know that, your mass scale calcolithic/early bronze age chariot invasion didn't happen, they probably spread a plague that killed off much of the farmers and natives, I remember reading an article about the black plague being found among early PIE people.

>>2808300
By chariots I mean war chariots with spooked wheels pulled by horse of course

>>2808300
if that was the case I assume we'd see much more steppe maternal lineages in Europe, instead it seems only the male lineages went through an almost complete replacement, while European maternal lines are still overwhelmingly neolithic and mesolithic in origin

>>2808332
Again, there is no evidence of chariots being used in:

Britain, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain before the EIA, yet PIE people replaced farmers in britain around 2000 bc, in the final copper age/early bronze age.

>>2808343
true but then again for most of Europe at that time I don't see chariots being necessary to wipe out the local males, horses were probably more than enough
I'm not the original poster you were replying to btw

>>2808332
>>2808348
I don't remember any evidence of horseback warfare that early in history.

Besides a military conquest implies an organized force which also wasn't a thing, or at least not a thing in a scale big enough to overthrow a whole continent.

>>2805245
How populated even was Europe before this really?

>>2805245
They're sons of Japheth, who was Noah's son. The right term is Japhetic language, peoples. Stop with this Indo-European crap already.

>>2808348

You don't even need horses, just volatile genetics which make you chimp the fuck out when you see a (native) foreigner.

>>2808358
you wouldn't need that much organization I think, small raiding parties of horseback warriors could be devastating enough on small neolithic villages not used to such kind of attacks
it's not something that happened overnight after all

>>2808348
Yes, but horses were too small to be used without chariots back then, right?

>>2808363
Well I guess we have to define conquest in this case.

If you mean a biological conquest as maybe thousandths of individual small groups moved west and mixed or killed the natives as they went then yes I guess you could call it a conquest

>>2808382
not sure about that tbqh, certainly the scenery wouldn't be as how we imagine it today with big ass fast modern horses
maybe it was a combination of things, both related to warfare but also to their different lifestyle, more mobile

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>>2805245

>>2808521
I think it's not a strech to say that that is not a very well designed map.

>>2805245
>come from
Pretty sure they're the symbiosis of different groups meeting in the Caspian Pontic Steppe, then spreading out in all directions from there.

R1B more than likely migrated from the Balkans into the Steppe meeting R1A for the first time in 10,000 years.

>>2808887

Probably not. The most divergent R1b lineage is found in Tajikistan and Bhutan and the 2nd most divergent in Uzbekistan.

>>2808887

If I2 and R1b both expanded from the Balkan refuge at the same time, why is there pretty much just I2 in mesolithic western Europe and mainly R1b (+R1a) in mesolithic eastern Europe? It should be more mixed up.

Crimea looks more promising as the place where R1b expanded from.

>>2808200
>R1b is found

Non-IE subclades are found*

Western European subclades aren't the same than the Old European subclades from the Paleolithic

>>2808194
>89

124*

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>>2808946
Are they older than the 9000BC R1bs from the Balkans?

>>2809146
But they're in the Balkans.

>>2809251

Yep. The Tajikistan-Bhutan line is the oldest possible, dating not long after the R1b/R1a split. Anything older would be just R1.

9000BC means absolutely nothing since Villabruna from NE Italy is 4000 years older and R1b. We need more DNA from around that time and slightly before but at this point it looks like R1b expanded into Balkans after I2 left it, so around 15k BC.

>>2809290
>Yep. The Tajikistan-Bhutan line is the oldest possible, dating not long after the R1b/R1a split. Anything older would be just R1.
The was very basal R1b, 25,000 YBP. Retarded you mention this.

>9000BC means absolutely nothing since Villabruna from NE Italy is 4000 years older and R1b.
Now I've completely lost any respect for you

> We need more DNA from around that time and slightly before but at this point it looks like R1b expanded into Balkans after I2 left it, so around 15k BC.
What the hell does this have to do with anything? The R1b of Indo-European, more than likely expanded from the Baklans into the Ukraine to merge with R1a and created the PIE.

>>2809318

You're fucking retarded.

It is completely expected that there was R1b in Romania 9000 BC since it had made it's way west to Italy before that.

Where is the proof that R1b of Indo-Europeans came from the Balkans?

It seems more likely it came from Central Asia to European Russia and Ukraine in the paleolithic and stayed there until the Indo-European era.

>>2809343
So why is it so cut off from R1a then? Obviously R1b came north to meet with R1a. There's a steady progression in the record from Italy>Balkans>Ukraine>Pontic Steppe

> It is completely expected that there was R1b in Romania
Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Ukraine

>>2809413

>So why is it so cut off from R1a then?

What the hell are you talking about? Khvalynsk culture had both as did Dereivka as did Baltic hunter gatherers. They were carried by the same pops although R1b was significantly more frequent it seems.

Villabruna is the oldest R1b in record yes but that's because we have 0 samples from the same and preceding era from Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan etc. Absence of samples isn't proof. If R1b originates in Ukraine to Kazakhstan area, why would later Ukrainian R1b have anything to do with the Balkans. It just seems far more likely that it simply stayed there.

>>2809459
>Dereivka
That is later an practically in the Pontic Steppe.

>>2809501

Doesn't change anything. R1b and R1a were carried by the same pops since forever.

You still can't come up with a logical reason why R1b would originate in Ukraine or east of it, go to Balkans and then go back to it's homeland. It doesn't make any sense.

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>>2809524
>Doesn't change anything. R1b and R1a were carried by the same pops since forever.

>>2809548

Russian hunter gatherers(Samara/Karelia) were biologically indistinct regardless if they had R1a or R1b as were later groups.