To what extent is China's claim to be the world's oldest

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> norte chico

>>2797562
they're just the oldest surviving civilization. others predate them, but got so fucked in the time between then and now that they're unrecognizable from their origins with regard to ethnicity/culture. not entirely so with China, despite it having been through a lot of internal conflict and restructuring

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>>2797562
"Chinese Civilization" as we know it, emerged during the founding of the Empire. So that's 200s BC.

However Ancient "China" did lay much of the foundation for that civilization to not warrant being discounted (i.e. Writing. Philosophies, the very notion of "Zhongguo" to begin with.)

>>2797591
How much of a firm delineation of culture was there between the Qin Dynasty and the Zhou Dynasty, besides the fact that it was now "imperial"?

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>>2797603
Qin invented the meme of Empire and the One Centralized State.

The Zhou existed in a time when "China" resembled medieval europe - diverse states united by a "common" culture- which the Zhou state unified via marrying into the monarchies of various kingdoms and principalities, making them all related to Ji Clan (the ruling house of the Zhou Kingdom). The Zhou King was really more of a King of Kings, feudally ruling over the other "Chinese" Kings, who in turn continued to govern over their states.

The Qin destroyed all that in favor of a centralized state. Including unifying the local cultures of the erstwhile feudal states.

In terms of Culture its more nebulous since 300 years separate Zhou and Qin unification. Between that time was the Hundred Schools of Thought period which is basically the Enlightenment happening in 700s-200s BC China.

However it was in the Zhou period that Empire memes such as "Mandate of Heaven" and "All Under Heaven" were born. However it was more cultural and philosophical under the Zhou and it was only under the Empire that such memes became literal justification for empire.

>>2797656
So sort of like the difference between the early feuding Greek city-states which shared a culture but were otherwise not unified; and the later more unified Greece after Alexander the Great?

>>2797689
>after Alexander the Great?
*after Philip II

>>2797689
Sort of but not really because the Greeks all spoke Greek while many of the Feudal States spoke different languages albeit from the same language tree. Hence all the logogram writing systems even before unification.

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>>2797656
>hold the Enlightenment in Europe
>get liberalism, rationalism, and secularism

>hold the Enlightenment in China
>get Legalism, Confucianism, and Taoism

>>2797562
to what scale?

It's absolute bullshit, the first Chiense writing date back to 1200 bc at most, they didn't have civilization until around that time.
The first Sumerian writings date back to 3500 bc, the first Egyptian writings to 3200-3100 bc, the first Indus valley ones to 2500 bc, the first Minoan hierglyphs to 2100-2000 bc, the Linear A (Minoan) to 1800 bc, Cypro Minoan to 1500 bc, I could go on, they were far from the first, even Greeks became civilized sooner (Myceneans)

>>2797572
Oldest surviving civilization?

Not really, Greeks are documented since 1600-1500 bc (Linear B codified the Ancient Greek language)

>>2797716
They are the oldest "surviving" civilization.

>>2797719
No, that would be the Greeks

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>>2797705
Because Enlightenment Europe wasn't as bad as Warring States China, win which Kingdoms were literally total warring each other that Chinese Philosophers all went "Oh gods, I wish there was only one ruler for fucking all of us."

Also
>Lumping Confucianism with Legalism..
It was basically social contract. Somethinge Enlightenment Europe also came across.

>>2797705
>Legalism
How to run government
>Confucianism
How to run society/family
>Taoism
How to run self/world

>>2797721
A lot more of ancient China survives in modern Chinese cultural identity than does ancient Hellenistic culture in modern Greek identity.

>>2797750
Such as?

What survives from the Shang dynasty in modern Chinese exactly?

>>2797756
Ancestor worship

>>2797773
Oh please no one does that there anymore, they are all athetist materailsitic utilitarians

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>>2797723
This looks like a warhammer painting, i had to look at it for a while to make sure there were no demons hiding in it.

>>2797591
>>2797656
You are q fucking retard.
The notion of Empire and mandate of heaven came from the Zhou dynasty.
It was them that began what is called "China". The Qin (and other warring states) merely aggregated other people beside the Han in their ranks (a condition for an empire, but still).
The notion of China and its empire is older than the Qin. They reunited China after a long period of time.

>>2797656
Also, what you're thinking when you say the Zhou were like feudal Europe are just the late (western?) Zhou. Before that the state was very centralized.

>>2797656
And to conclude, it was the time between the Zhou and the Qin that gave China the tools to maintain a state considered an empire (legalism, confuncionism, etc).

>>2797562
Actually China never really claim they're "the oldest" civilization.They say they're one of the oldest "continuing civilization" compare to others, and it's basically true . Mesopotamia civilization is long gone; ancient Egypt is long gone and absorbed by Islam now, Rome is gone and absorbed by other Western nations; Indus Valley Civilisation is gone and absorbed by ancient Iranic invaders(the relics and locations are not even in modern India), ancient Greece is gone, absorbed and transformed by Rome and Christians.

Although Chinese civilization also has been damaged and invaded many times, but the core culture and major population are still remains, the concept of "China"(middle kingdom, aka Zhong Guo) has kept being inherited by every dynasties and never vanished, it eventually becomes the official name we see today.

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>>2797776
>Oh please no one does that there anymore.
>mfw they literally rebuilt the hall of Muh Clan ancestors in Fujian.
PROTIP: You can't destroy deeply rooted cultural beliefs in a historical equivalent of an overnight. Just as Communist Russia failed to fuck up Orthodoxy, so did the PRC fail to root out folk religion.

The there are cunts there who kill Tigers in the buttloads for magic penis medicine ffs.

>>2797705
Both Enlightenment Europe and Hundred-Schools-of-Thought China came to the meritocracy meme which curtailed the power of noble aristocracy.

>>2797820
Still the Zhou never styled themselves as Emperor like the first emperor of Qin did.

>>2797562
Mesopotamia is the oldest, you fucking faggorto.

>>2798167
Oldest known so far, faggot.

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>>2797562
It just irks me how Indus valley has been joined up with Ganges for no fucking reason other than making Pujeets feel like Kangz. Indus doesnt even flow through Gujarat. Wtf is this.

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>>2797820
Except Pre-Qin China was feudal. Ever since the Shang. You had Kings, Dukes, Marquises, Counts, and Barons running around *with actual feudal power* as opposed to the honorary modern-knighthood style titles those titles became under Imperial China.

In addition the Zhou was a kingdom established separate from the Shang. It became an empire after leading a coalition of other Kingdoms and Shang rebels against the Shang. The Kings of the lesser kingdoms became dukes under the Zhou, and married their relatives off to unite the whole thing. It therefore had the illusion of centralization largely because the first generation of ruling classes felt tied to the King. It was only later that that relationship frayed and the King had to introduce greater feudal privileges to the Dukes which then increased their power.

Sure it was an empire, but it wasn't an empire as the Imperial (and Modern) Chinese understood it- a single centralized state with no feudal subdivisions. While the Chinese notion of Empire (Tianxia) and the Mandate of Heaven came under the Zhou Period, they were Philosophical/Cultural musings under them, while Imperial China literally made them tangible realities. For example: Tianxia under the Zhou referred to the common culture of the multiple states they ruled. Even during the Warring States, the states identified themselves as part of Tianxia, even if they considered each other different. Meanwhile Imperial China made Tianxia synonymous to the word for Empire, not just a common culture shared.

Look back to the picture here >>2797591. That is the formal division of Chinese history. Just like how we do Ancient/Medieval/Modern. Notice how the Zhou aren't included in Imperial History. Exactly. Even before modern times, when people in Imperial China spoke of "Ancient Times" they meant the period before the Qin unification.

>>2798180
Korea and Finland being the oldest in actual fact, then?

>>2797562
China is a republic state, though civilizations built by ancestors of modern chinese are the oldest to date excluding the Indus Valley, Norte Chico and Sumeria with Egypt.

>>2797572
>chinese think their culture survived communism
lol

>>2799202
Don't forget the Cucuteni

>>2797562
>To what extent is China's claim to be the world's oldest civilization justified?

Not even slightly.

>How much more of a claim to being representative of an original cradle of civilization do they have compared to Egypt or the Middle East?

They have the same exact claim as the other Primary Civilizations, not Egypt (which probably formed under Sumerian influence) but Sumer, the Indus, Mexico and the Andeans.

>>2799229
>not Egypt (which probably formed under Sumerian influence)

You know jack shit about ancient history, stop posting.

>>2797562
>but africans had no trade partners
>South American natives literally make a civilization from scratch on the otherside of the world

Notice how NONE of these first civilizations were made by african blacks.

>>2797562
They have 3500 year old records saying they are 10000 years deep.

The claim is a lie to prove who is the "Chinesiest", and other societies have older records.

>>2799299
It's like no major river system with fertile land existed in SSA.

>>2797562
Some Chinese can still read ancient Chinese. Many practice traditional Chinese religions, alongside heavy amounts of Confucianism and traditional "medicine".

Modern Egyptians write in Arabic, are muslim, many LARP as Arabs, and literally didn't begin consider themselves at all related to the ancient Egyptians until the 1970's.

Arabs are not at all related to Sumeria of Assyria.

Greeks literally are not the Ancient Greeks. The cultural differences are massive, not to mention the genetic differences.

Pakis are a literal made up nation/ethnic group.

To be honest though, Modern China at best connects to the Han Dynasty. Further back and it is very debateable.

>>2797703
>because the Greeks all spoke Greek

But this isn't true, at all. Might as well say all the Chinese spoke Chinese.

>>2797776
[Multiple Citations needed]

At least fucking take a minute and google the issue before showing how ignorant you are.

>>2797562
It's bullshit.
Chinese are the civilizational equivalent of patent trolls.

>Reeee! we fuck around with primitive black powder pack in bamboo tube a thousand year ago that mean China responsible for ALL firearm development, you owe us gweilo!

>>2799229
>Egypt formed from Sumer influence

Off yourself revisionist idiot.

>>2799310
I don't see why a few random fake claims made by idiots over 4000 years discredits everyone else. Fallacy fallacy.

Just remember how much bullshit we have in Greek/Egyptian/Iraqi history books about who WE WUZ.

>>2799738
Strawman. We have clear evidence of China being the first to create gunpowder and it being copied and improved upon by Arabs/Europeans centuries later.

At least direct your butthurt at a legitimate issue, like China claiming 5000 years of continuous Chinese history. Or Indians claiming India existed before the British.

>>2799685
>Some Chinese can still read ancient Chinese. Many practice traditional Chinese religions, alongside heavy amounts of Confucianism and traditional "medicine".
Means nothing. Their society had radically changed under Mao.

>Modern Egyptians write in Arabic, are muslim, many LARP as Arabs, and literally didn't begin consider themselves at all related to the ancient Egyptians until the 1970's.
I guess Persians, Turks, Englishmen and other people who adopted another writing system and another religion are no longer their ancestors. Also, shitloads of Coptics live in Egypt.

>Arabs are not at all related to Sumeria of Assyria.
Which Arabs? Gulf? No, of course not. Iraqis? Yes.

>Greeks literally are not the Ancient Greeks. The cultural differences are massive, not to mention the genetic differences.
Genetic evidence shows Greeks are largely related to their ancient counterparts. Cultural changes again mean shit since you're insisting Christian Europe are not the descendants of Pagan Europe.


>Pakis are a literal made up nation/ethnic group.
They're strongly connected to the Indus River.

>>2799782

>I guess Persians, Turks, Englishmen and other people who adopted another writing system and another religion are no longer their ancestors

Obviously not. Any person who thinks he has anything in common with his ancestors apart from genetics is fucking retarded. You probably have more in common with a chink living a world away today than with your ancestor from 2k years ago. Don't be silly.

>>2799333
>no major river system
what is the Congo, Niger, Zambezi

>no fertile land
retard, 60% of the worlds arable land is in Africa

>>2799816
Literally any people's culture is started and built up by their ancestors. Where do you think folktales, festivals and language come from?

>>2799860

Did I disagree with that in any way?

No doubt, there are plenty of remnants in our culture from our ancestors. But the things that tend to get stressed and survive are those that are relevant to all generations (arguably all humans in general) and/or to the political climate.

You think an Italian for today has more in common with a Roman from the Republic than with some Japanese guy from Osaka? Or an Indian? Or fucking Muslim from Egypt, at that? Take your pick. You underestimate how much we've developed, and how influenced everyone else is by the Enlightenment.

I have a hard time believing they're any older than smaller indigenous locales.

>>2797562
About as much claim that Byzantium is Rome. It is loosely the same polity was it was in the Bronze age, but they have been cucked and fucked so many times as to be unrecognizable. Even Mao wouldn't recognize the China of today.

>>2797562

yes, they are part of worlds oldest civ: the Formicidae civ

>>2797719
>>2797716

assyrians, armenians, samaritans, sardinians

>>2797862
Present-day China has almost nothing in common with the earlier dynasties. I don't know where this meme comes from.

>>2799925
>the Formicidae civ
Rude!

>>2799944
they just tryin to claim that they arr rook the same as the ancients, which isnt an easy feat to accomplish since euros are enriched with multiculti

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>>2799925

>the Formicidae civ

>>2799782
>Chinese society in 1949 and 1976 were radically different
Wrong.

>>2799944
>Present-day China has almost nothing in common with the earlier dynasties
I don't know where is your false impression come from, but here are some common things:

1.Still speak same language(Han). The present "common Chinese"(mandarin) is direct derived from Qing dynasty mandarin.
2.Still write same language(Han). Simplified Chinese is still Chinese, and traditional Chinese is still been used by TW, HK and Maccow. Classical Chinese is still been taught in schools, educated people can still read scripts from 2000 years ago directly.
3.Still has the same major ethnic group: Han.
4.Still has same traditional festivals: Spring festival, Dragon Boat festival, Qing Ming...etc.
5.Still has same traditional religions such as Buddhism, Daoism...etc. Even though they'd been damaged by commies once, but they're recovered now.
6.Confucianism has been revived, Legalism has been promoted, along with other traditional Chinese values.

>>2800251
>along with other traditional Chinese values
this
dog and roach eating unites our prehistoric heritage

>>2799944
Modern China and the Han Dynasty have an immense number of cultural similarities.

It's honestly hilarious how pathetic and ignorant about this issue you guys are.

Unless you meant Shang/Xia/Zhou, then yes I agree.

PRC and Han Dynasty have:
1. Similar written language. It's legible to those who are educated and literate.
2. Same Chinese traditional religions.
3. Same ancestor worship.
4. Same extended families.
5. Similar genetics.
6. Similar Han ethnicity.
7. Same image of themselves in the world, and as a distinct ethnic group.

Iraq? Religion, language, genetics are different. Claim they are Arabs, not Assyrian/Sumerian.
Egypt? Religion, language, and many Egyptians claim they are Arabs.
Pakistan? A literal non-state made up in 1947 like India. Different religion, language, and significantly more turkic/persian influence than the Indus valley civilization.
Greece? Different written language, different spoken language, different religion, half of Ancient Greece is Turkish now, no demigods. Genetics are shifted because of Turk/Slav influx.
Mexico? Have almost nothing to do with Aztecs except massive amounts of violence.
Peru? Nothing to do with Incans, even purified cocaine is knew.

>>2800280

I remember a guy on /his/ told me once that he could track down his family line down to the 1600s or something.

God bless bureaucracy.

>Greece? Different written language, different spoken language, different religion, half of Ancient Greece is Turkish now, no demigods. Genetics are shifted because of Turk/Slav influx.

I would argue that the generic and religion aspect doesn't even matter. A strong and unified Greece wasn't an idea in ancient times. Even when certain Greeks had an idea of uniting their people, that was all there was to it, getting all the Hellenes under a single hegemony. Any kind of "nationalistic" idea of Hellas is non-existent. Slavs are probably the best direct comparison. They might recognize each other as being part of the same people, but they can differ a great deal, and very few at all have any notion of uniting all the Slavs under a single political entity.

No European state really has a "culture" of its own anymore. Only delusional alt-righters believe this. Europeans are all pretty much all the same with only a different flavor from country to country. I mean, lol, there's literally more diversity within Greek poleis only a few kms distant from one another than there is between European countries at opposite ends of the continent. Let's not be delusional about the conformism of today.

I don't even know why most Europeans are so fucking desperate to pick on China, when we have so many things that DID stand the test of time and that form a continuity not found anywhere else in the world--like, for example, the philosophical tradition.

>>2798167
Danube valley civilization is older than sumer but is largely ignored because it was discovered by the soviets (first major evidence being dug up around 1960's) and vast majority of the research into it is in russian and other eastern european languages and has never been translated into english. Also leftist academics dont generally want to admit that oldest civilization in the world is infact european. Danube valley and the black sea coast had cities thousand years before sumer and probably had a writing system in form of the Vinca symbols which shares majority of its "letters" with greek linear A. Unfortunately we cant even read linear A so theres no way to translate the Vinca symbols.

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>>2800428

>grow up with communist grandparents that tell me this area was a hotbed out of which european civilization began
>doubt them completely because none of this is in the western sources
>mfw it's slowly coming true

Christ, I hope they weren't right about God too. I'd be fucked.

>>2800251
The Han is a meme ethnicity. A southerner from Guangzhou is more similar to a Vietnamese person than to a northener from Beijing.

>>2799207
They just replaced their emperors with the CCP.

>>2801569
Ethnicity isn't just about genetics, dumbass.

>>2801569
That's not true though. Southern and Northern Han are still more closely related to each other than they are to anyone else.

>>2799685
>Pakis are a literal made up nation/ethnic group.
Indus Valley was Dravidian so South Indian in natue

>>2801569
>The Han is a meme ethnicity.
Ethnicity was never based on genetics,patrimonial descent(whether real or imagined) is the main reason why Southern Han view themselves as Han.

>>2801670
>Southern and Northern Han are still more closely related to each other than they are to anyone else.
Depends on what kind of Southern Han,"Southern Han" have considerable genetic variation and the Yue speaking populations are significantly closer to Dai/Vietnamese populations than to Beijing Han.

There's a genetic cline from northeastern China(Liaoning) all the way to southwestern China(Guangxi)

>>2799759
>Or Indians claiming India existed before the British.
It wasn't an official state but more of a kind of cultural union.

There was a cultural idea of India and the 'Indian' people, but by the definition of independent nation states India didn't exist as an official nation then.

For example, for Britain itself, in England during the Dark Ages the idea of England existed but in actual fact that region was very much divided into several sovereign kingdoms: Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia and Northumbria to name the main ones.

When Augrenzab started going ballistic it invoked a lot of the local kingdoms who wouldn't usually ally with each other in doing so.

It didn't always happen most of the time of course. People would forget their ancient history and out their regional territories and interests above the greater good but there was always an identity.

>>2799212
pls Don't forget the Vinca

>>2797562
关关雎鸠,在河之洲。
窈窕淑女,君子好逑。
It's a poem written 3000 years ago.Chinese students learn them in high school.So can you read Homer's Epic in ancient Greek?

>>2797562
China isn't the oldest civilization but it's one of the oldest and has lasted longer than most others.

>>2797562
Why are they all located in Asia?

>>2801569
Your mom is meme, your ass is meme, Amerifag is meme, and I bet you can't even read or speak Chinese.

A southerner from Guangzhou and a northerner from Beijin can still communicate with each others and both can read scripts from Shi Ji 2000 years ago with little to no problem. Can Vietnamese still do the same with Chinese? Even their writing system looks like Westerners now.

>>2802841
Not just that, it still "RHYME" in modern mandarin, that's the most amazing part!

>>2802939
>Egypt
>Norte Chico
>Asia

>>2802941
Vietnam just adopted Latin script to stop being China 2.0

>>2799713
Some variant of greek was spoken from magna grecia and athens to anatolia and antioceia.And they were mutually intelligble

>>2800280
Ancient and modern Greek does have differences but most people can understand ancient Greek, the are similar in many ways still.It'S NOT REALLY a different language.You are correct about everything else though.

>>2802841
Link to english version? Very interested in ancient poetry/philosophy.

>>2797562
Places like China and Egypt that claim to be a continuous society even when they get conquered or ruled by foreigners kinda irk me. Conquered by Mongols? Nah, that's just the Yuan dynasty.
Side note: fuck that video from the OP. Mongols conquer and rape several dozen million people? "Mongols conquer some stuff, go mongols!" Rome slaughters everyone in Carthage, destroys the city, salts the land? Not mentioned. European settlers win a war against natives? We'd better go out of our way to characterize them as murderous bastards.

>>2803736
The Mongols called themselves a Chinese dynasty though.

>>2797562

that video
>>2803765
>>2803800

>>2803736
But it is the Yuan dynasty. That's what the Mongols themselves declared. They did it so they could look legitimate because China was always getting split up or overthrowing their previous rulers.

>>2803793
>>2803834
That doesn't change the fact that they were conquered and ruled over by foreigners. Calling it a continuous society is like native Americans bragging about their society going to the moon under the great Nixon dynasty

>>2797862
Utter horse shit. "China" has been conquered and transformed by many different peoples and upheavals across the millennia. Modern day china has NOTHING to do with the first united Chinese kingdom, far less than Europe has to do with Ancient Rome/Greece.

>>2803717
It's a love poem from 詩經 關雎。Read traditional Chinese version, no simplified. And I have to tell you, it loses the beauty when it get translate, so read Chinese if you can.

Here you go
http://ctext.org/book-of-poetry/odes-of-zhou-and-the-south/zh?en=on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry

>>2803870
China has been constantly changing throughout history. All cultures do that.

>>2803870
>Modern day china has NOTHING to do with the first united Chinese kingdom, far less than Europe has to do with Ancient Rome/Greece.
Now that's a laugh.

>>2803864
I'm sorry, even in Yuan dynasty, the political, economical and cultural system are largely remain the same, same as the major population. Getting conquered doesn't mean they lost their culture and civilization.

>>2803896
Lol asians are so delusional

>>2803870
I see you didn't even read the previous discussion.
See these posts first:
>>2800280
>>2800251
>>2802841
>>2801695
>>2803877
>>2802841

>>2803901
Can you read this?
建國號詔
誕膺景命,奄四海以宅尊;必有美名,紹百王而紀統。肇從隆古,匪獨我家。且唐之為言蕩也,堯以之而著稱;虞之為言樂也,舜因之而作號。馴至禹興而湯造,互名夏大以殷中,世降以還,事殊非古。雖乘時而有國,不以利而制稱。為秦為漢者,著從初起之地名;曰隋曰唐者,因即所封之爵邑。且皆徇百姓見聞之偶習,要一時經制之權宜,概以至公,不無少貶。我太祖聖武皇帝,握乾符而起朔土,以神武而膺帝圖,四震天聲,大恢土宇,輿圖之廣,歷古所無。頃者耆宿詣庭,奏草申請,謂既成於大業,宜早定於鴻名。在古制以當然,於朕心乎何有!可建國號曰大元,蓋取《易經》乾元之義,茲大冶流形於庶品,孰名資始之功。予一人底寧於萬邦,尤切體仁之要,事從因革,道協天人。於戲!稱義而名,固非為之溢美;孚休惟永,尚不負於投艱。嘉與敷天,共隆大號!

This is from Yuan dynasty, and approved and announced by Kublai himself.

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>>2803870
>"China" has been conquered and transformed by many different peoples and upheavals across the millennia.
All of whom seem intent to found a Chinese-style Imperial Dynasty and immerse themselves into the culture away from their barbaric ancestors. Including changing their names.

>Hey Tuobas, Watcha doin?
Northern Wei Dynasty. We Mandate of Heaven now.
>Hey Khitans, Watcha doin?
Liao Dynasty. We Mandate of Heaven no-
>Hey Jurchens, Watcha doin and why did you kill the Khitans for?
Northern Jin Dynasty. We Mandate of Heaven now.
>Hey Mongols, Watcha doin?
Yuan Dynasty. We Mandate of Heaven now.
>Hey Jurch-, oh, Manchus, Watcha doin (again)?
Jin Dynas- I mean, Qing Dynasty. We Mandate of Heaven now.

As if there was this recognized solid realm to be rulers of instead of randomly carving a kingdom or something...

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>>2797718
>Tries to tie modern Greeks with pre-Homeric Greeks

>>2803934
Nope I don't read chink chicken scratch

The dogeaters' language and "culture" are repugnant and I will never bother learning a damn thing about them

>>2803864
The British claim their heritage to go all the way back to Roman Britain and hold King Arthur up as a mythical British figure, in spite of the conquests by the Saxons and the Normans.

>>2802841
And modern Standard Mandarin bears about as much resemblance to the language spoken by 3000 year old poet as modern French does to Old Latin.

>>2803967
EDGY
D
G
Y

So pretty much everyone ITT seems to agree that China was by no means one of the world's oldest civilizations.

So why the FUCK do so many people think that it's been around as long as Egypt and Mesopotamia? The First Dynasty of Egypt predates the Xia dynasty of China, which may not have even existed, by 1000 years, and the Kish Tablet predates that by another 500. Is it just conflating "Oldest surviving civilization" with "Oldest civilization period"?

>>2803967
You probably already have, if you're a weeab.

>>2803967
So you can't read Chinese, you don't research, you don't learn, and you don't act like a civilized, educated human, you only spout shit and insult. I really wonder why people don't believe you....

>>2804015
>Is it just conflating "Oldest surviving civilization" with "Oldest civilization period"?
Yes. I think you're the one who is getting things mixed up.

>>2804015
>Is it just conflating "Oldest surviving civilization" with "Oldest civilization period"?
Pretty much. Though the first pre-unification dynasties emerged when Ancient Egypt was as it's high point so I guess that's why many people think they were as ancient merely because they existed side by side at one point.

>>2804015
>So why the FUCK do so many people think that it's been around as long as Egypt and Mesopotamia?
I haven't seen anyone say this.

What's the oldest surviving civilization? Greece?

>>2804038
I heard some people say Japan but that sounds like nationalist crap.

Is Sumer actually the oldest in history?

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>>2804015
>Is it just conflating "Oldest surviving civilization" with "Oldest civilization period"?
Duh? Even the Chinese admit that even the mythical Xia Dynasty did not precede the Indus Valley civ or Ancient Egypt. This is the official timeline at the National Palace Museum in Taiwan. What China is claiming to be is the oldest surviving civ.

>>2804015
>So why the FUCK do so many people think that it's been around as long as Egypt and Mesopotamia?

because people easily parrot false myths perpetatued by ancient historians who most of them time parroted inane mythical bullshit, just like Gades being founded in 1104 bc according to Wikipedia, I happen to know a lot about the bronze age and early iron age in the Mediterranean and it seemed wrong to me, I did my research and all the archaeological papers agree that Phoenicians didn't settle the Western Med before the late 9th century bc, so that date was obviously false, but fucking wikipedia had it, because false myths are perpetuated easily by people in good faith and in bad faith

>>2804048
Lol Japanese were literally hunter gatherers until 200 bc

>>2804027
Nah man, I've never thought this and it's always baffled me when people claim that kind of thing.

>>2804035
I've personally heard a number of people say this, granted none of them were actually that educated on the matter. Seems like a surprisingly common misconception in my experience.

>>2804038
Yes

>>2804038
India....maybe

>>2804052
For the record the false story about the foundation of Gadir was perpetuated by Strabo, ancient historians are often unreliable for dealing with such remote periods of time

>>2797572
Problem, original Chinese culture and genetics were severely scrambled by a series of steppe invasians followed by genocides.

Chinese folk are essentially mongolians.

>>2804093
Isn't this the same shit Japanese nationalists parrot?

>>2804093
Northern may have become Mongols and Manchus, but Southerners went into maximum ultrachinese mode to compensate.

>>2797562
The civilization which survived the most is the Egyptian one

From 3200 bc to to 400 ad

>>2804101
It's the new /his/ meme.

>>2803884
>Modern day china has NOTHING to do with the first united Chinese kingdom, far less than Europe has to do with Ancient Rome/Greece.

Yeah, I wonder why Westerners still like to call China as "Chin-a"? Do Chinese force them to do so? It must be another commie propaganda,right? Btw, the Chinese characters people use nowadays are actually evolved from the writing system(small seal script) of Qing dynasty, you know, the first united Chinese kingdom.

>>2804093
False.

Sorry but 200,000 mongols never outbred the 400,000,000 Chinamen.

>>2804015
I think you are just retarded.

No educated Chinese claim China is the oldest civilization. They are the oldest SURVIVING civilization.

>>2804093
See another /pol/ tier shitpost, you probably can't read, speak Chinese and haven't even read a single Chinese history books.

At least you can read these first
>>2803934
>>2800280
>>2800251
>>2802841
>>2801695
>>2803877
>>2802841

>>2804005
How is that relevant? Most people only knew their own local language until the invention of mass education and the automated printing press.

>>2804159
>They are the oldest SURVIVING civilization.


No.

>>2803870
>>2803864
>>2803901
>>2803967
>>2804093
(You) ignorant fucks won't even acknowledge all the information provided to you.

I don't care if you agree, but if all you want is to have your alternative facts confirmed by memeposts, fuck off to
>>>/pol/

>>2804184
Who is then?

>>2804184
Well, they really are. Why so butthurt and defensive? Admit it doesn't really hurt Western civilization or American superiority. US is still the most powerful and influential country in the world.

>>2804225
Ethiopian Civilization.

>>2804184
>>2804229
>Why so butthurt and defensive?

Simply saying no is being butthurt and defensive now?

Your response is abnormal, are you a triggered chink?

Greek civilization is older

>>2804159
Never claimed that I heard Chinese people spouting this either lad, it's just a weird misconception I've noticed in the West. No idea how people are getting that shit out of my post.

>>2804243
No, chink civilization is older than whitey.

>>2804247
Well you didn't reply to anyone and appear to be OP to everyone including me, and OP claimed that he heard Chinese argue it multiple times.

>>2804243
Please explain how Greek Civilization is older than Chinese Civilization? I honestly don't care who is correct since I'm American, but please explain further.

>>2804263
Not really, There were full fledged cities in what is now greece since 2500-2100 bc (though there were already towns/citadels since 3000 bc)

>>2804277
>and appear to be OP to everyone including me, and OP claimed that he heard Chinese argue it multiple times.
Well shit, that wasn't my intention at all.

>>2804277
>Please explain how Greek Civilization is older than Chinese Civilization? I honestly don't care who is correct since I'm American, but please explain further.
here were full fledged cities in what is now greece since 2500-2100 bc (though there were already towns/citadels since 3000 bc), and there was writing in modern day greece since 2100-2000 bc (Cretan hieroglyphs), then there was writing which conveyed the Greek language since 1500 bc (Linear B), while in China there was no writing until 1200-1100 bc

>>2804243
Well, I respond like because I saw many similar shitposts like yours before, I'm getting a bit tired of that.

Ancient Greece didn't survive to these days, modern Greece don't even exist as a country until 1833. The Greece you see today is actually the descendants of "Eastern Rome Empire"(still nice of course), not the old Greeks states, they may still speak and write Greek but they don't have the "old way"(Hellenism) anymore, they're "Christianized"(not really a bad thing). Which is also why people say China is the oldest "SURVIVING" civilization but not Greece. As for further explanation, you can read the previous discussion.

>>2804503
So when China becomes Christian (more and more converting every year) it will somehow become a new civilization?

Really makes me think...

>>2804503
Yes, I am sure Chinese today descend fully from a dynasty which we know barely anything about through some short writings on bones, which also covered like 1/10th of Modern China

>>2804583
Yes, you really have to think more. Is Christianity originated from Chinese or Greece civilization? Do you think Christianity only change Greek religions? Is ERE a Greek empire or Rome empire? How many old ways before Christianized does modern Greece keep? The only reason Greeks can still speak and write Greek is because Romans didn't replace it, because Romans like and respect Greek culture; and the main reason Greeks change their religions and custom is also because Romans.

>>2804593
>a dynasty which we know barely anything about through some short writings on bones
>we
I think you mean (((you))).

Actually modern Chinese really can read some oracle bones scripts directly, not fully but some, and many records can still be find on ShiJi, if you actually read some.

>>2803958
Yeah, there's too much of a cultural gap between Mycenaean Greece and Classical Greece. The farthest back Modern Greece has anything in common with Ancient Greece, is around 450 BC. Mainly the continuous use, both verbal and written of Greek, as it evolved from Attic, and the Greek alphabet.

>>2797718
They also collapsed during the bronze age collapse, china is the only surviving bronze age civilization

>>2803958
Same language, same people, Classical Greeks remembered about their past through oral tradition and codified it in the Iliad and other countless myths

Also

>Ties Shang dynasty with modern chinese

Not much more reasonable

>>2804726
Myceneans spoke Greek, Linear B codified Greek, for fuck's sake at least read the wikipedia page before sharing your "opinion"

>>2804093
Nope,there's mtDNA continuity in northern Han from the Erlitou culture as well as the Yanshi/Yinxu of the Shang dynasty.

Even the non-Sinitic Lower Xiajiadian,Zhukaikou etc. that contributed to steppe populations were quite similar to Northern Chinese.

You have to understand that eastern Shandong,northern Shanxi/Shaanxi,Gansu,Hebei as well as Liaoning were all conquered by Zhou period Sinitics. The parsimonious thing to say is that those indemediate population contributed to both the steppe and sedentary populations.

>>2804103
>Northern may have become Mongols and Manchus, but Southerners went into maximum ultrachinese mode to compensate.
Northern Chinese,regardless of how many barbarian invasions that occurred throughout history are still genetically closer towards the ancient Han than southerners are.

Excluding Jiang-Huai Mandarin speakers,Wu speakers have the most "northern" ancestry but they identify with the local region.

Meanwhile,Min/Kejia/Yue try to LARP as the ancient Chinese yet even the native Tujia are close to the northern Han than they are.

>>2804159
Factually incorrect

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>>2797893
>there are cunts there who kill Tigers in the buttloads for magic penis medicine ffs.

>>2800495
Dude, Old Europe was completely destroyed by the time the bronze age rolled around, Horse niggers from the steppe came bearing the gifts of rape culture. Old Europe was matriarchal, and agrarian, the Indo-Euros were pastoral, and patriarchal. Unless i'm mistaken, I see almost no continuity between modern Europe and Old Europe, save for a few goddesses who became the new god's cock sleeve.

>>2802939
>Danube
>Asia

>>2804241
Sheeeeeeit

>>2804878
I know they spoke Greek ya lard. That doesn't make it the same "Greek" you have in mind. The matter at hand is continuity. "Di-We" written in pretty pictures is pretty far removed from the word Zeus. Now take into account the bronze age collapse and you'll get what I'm saying. It's like saying Modern North Italy has a continuous cultural connection with the Etruscans.

>>2805583
>danube
>cradle of civilization

>>2797562
China as a state is like less than 100 years old

>>2797562
we wuz the oldest

>>2804241
this

Axum is the oldest even older than Egypt

Is there any real inherent positive aspects to being an old civilization? Wouldn't a newer civilization be more "up to date" so to speak?

>>2807460
what is ethocentrism and supremacy

>>2805575
Theres literally no evidence that they were matriarchal its just some researchers pet theory.

>>2807458
Not at all

>>2807682
t. ignoramous

>>2807506
Do you know what evidence is? Theres plenty of evidence for this, why do I have to reexplain it in every single thread.

>Egalitarian pit grave culture
>Nearly no weapons of war found in pit graves
>Statues of women and women accessories everywhere
>Almost no fortifications to speak of till later

When the IEs came we notice a shift in all of these things to the opposite, clearly indicating a shift in gender roles in European society.

>>2808695
>When the IEs came we notice a shift in all of these things to the opposite

No, we don't.

>>2804051
>maya civilization

>>2804861
It's the same as if you tried to claim Finnish being a part of a 10k year old civ just because they speak roughly the same language, their genetic origin is the same and the myths are probably as old as any old myths.

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>>2800280
>Pakistan? A literal non-state made up in 1947 like India. Different religion, language, and significantly more turkic/persian influence than the Indus valley civilization.

Modern state of Pakistan, maybe, but the ethnic groups of Pakistan have been there for fucking millennia and are strongly connected with the Indus Valley.

>>2801690
>Indus Valley was Dravidian so South Indian in natue

We waz kangs, Pajeet style.

>>2809709
>HURR

The Mlecchas were certainly Dravidians, as the physical description of them in early Hindu texts makes clear.

>>2808695

How do you explain the many fortified sites across Old Europe?

Also none of your "evidence" is evidence for matriarchy. There has never been a single society ever discovered that was matriarchal, why do you imagine Old Europe would be the sole exception?

>>2809735
>Mlecchas

We are talking about Indus valley here.

>>2809802

Who do you think the Mlecchas were? The fact that the Sumerians used the same name (Meluḫḫa ) to refer to the Indus Valley civilization pretty much seals the deal, imo.

>>2809827
>Mlecchas
>Meluḫḫa
>same name


Thats not how it works

Indus Valley were not fucking Dravidian. There is no evidence to suggest this. The region has continuously been inhabited for millennia.

>>2809924
You are a grade a retard, Dravidian is related to Elamite, they were Dravidic people, they're ntof ar from Elamites, also they were conquered by Indoaryans which changed the language

Also if you've ever studied ancient langauges or now something about langauge you would see that Mlecchas and Meluhha are very similars names, reminds me of Acheans/Ahhywana (Named Ahhywana by hittites)

>>2809963
>Meluhha

Those "h"'s are in fact "ch" sounds, just like in Mleccha.

>>2810005
Also I'm nto him
>>2810005
exactly, reminds me of the Greek letter chi

>>2803870

Look and modern day Europe and now compare it with China.

In Europe you see mudskins wearing burkas on the streets yelling in arabic and turkish, in China there are slant eyes walking around, yelling in a language that even their own ancestors from over 1000 years ago would understand.

>>2803967

Fuck off, this isnt /b/ nor /pol/

>>2809963
>if you've ever studied ancient langauges or now something about langauge you would see that Mlecchas and Meluhha


Nobody takes this Pajeet revisionism seriously. Dravidian migration theories are dime a dozen and most supposedly took place way way before the Indus Valley era.

Also, Indus script/language is currently undecipherable. What the fuck are you even talking about?

We were kangz indeed.

>>2808712

I would like to believe that today's china is essentially the same or continuous with the older ones. That would be nice.

But at the same time I would like to see a loose definition of continuing civilization.

IMO India is still quite continuous. So what if they now have English and Muslims.

Arab or Eastern Europeans, I don't know much. But if like people ITT said it is an old civilization it can be good too.

No need to be too picky on modern Greek or Egyptians either.

>>2800428
>Also leftist academics dont generally want to
I know you hate leftists. But isn't Soviet...never mind.

I guess the same problem between communist empire vs nationalist empire vs the new ledft bias is the same everywhere.
I think the leftists are biased sometimes in their rejection of nationalist works.

>>2803736
>fuck that video from the OP
He's trying to summarize world history in about 16 minutes with a lighthearted tone, I think bill wurtz is sort of dumb too but people don't watch his videos for historically accurate content, they watch them for quick laughs and to pretend they just learned something.

>>2800366
>bureaucracy
I'm not sure that word means what you think it does

>>2800366
you're looking for that other board, where people might be more interested in hysteric opinions than factual argument

>>2811140
That's how most video work

>>2810042
>yelling in a language that even their own ancestors from over 1000 years ago would understand
No, Mandarin has actually diverged fairly strongly in pronunciation from the Middle Chinese spoken in the 1000 years ago Song Dynasty. The southern dialects have retained more of the pronunciation features from Middle Chinese, but it would be a stretch to say they are really mutually intelligible.

They could however conceivably read the same language, since the meanings of characters have stayed more or less the same even if the way they are read today in Mandarin bears no resemblance to how they were read 1000 years ago (which kind of fucks up the rhyming of poems and shit, there are poems that sound much nicer when read in Cantonese or Hokkien than in Mandarin because they preserve more of old pronunciations).

But what about the ancient Finno-Korean hyperpowers?

>>2797656
That map looks like a Dragons head. Or some kinda deer. I hope Im not the only one who sees it.

>>2803736
>it's a /pol/tard gets triggered episode

Chinese culture died in 1644. Manchu steppe niggers were the worst thing to ever happen to China.

At least the Mongols didn't force Chinese to dress like faggots.

>>2814913
Yeah, no, fuck you! Your mom died in 1644.