What are some legitimate arguments, if any, for gender being

None exist.

>>2795802
>biology is a spook because I want to cut my dick off and be a pretty girl
t. the modern left

Boy have penis
Girl have vagina

CUZ MY SEX JUNK

>>2795802
There are cultures that recognize "third genders" or have radically different approaches to gender roles than Europeans.

>>2795802
The argument I heard was that sex is biologially determined but gender is simply the assumptions and roles society assigns someone based on that. They are not the same around the world and they argue there are places with three genders

Since its just something society imposed arbitrarily it can also be arbitrarily changed.

>>2795816
there are indeed a certain percentage of kids who are naturally born with both sexual organs. However, this doesn't mean male and female do not exists as a biological constant.

>>2795802
There are literally none, genders and even gender roles are biologically innate. They tested this even on rhesus monkeys and male monkeys played with cars while female monkeys played with dolls, it's all about the impact of testosterone on your nerve system, tabula rasa theory is literally the most plebeian anthropology you can think of.

>>2795802
It is a fact that brain development is influenced by hormones in the womb, however people fearful of homophobia don't seem to be very interested in the science. Leftists taking advantage of their fears give them the impression anyone outside their group is out to get them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INAH_3

>>2795802
>Vine taught me to laugh

wtf its only been out 3 years max rofl, wast his made by a 14 year old?

>>2795802
What is your definition of gender?

>>2795848
Is it a boy or a girl dumbass

>>2795834
[citation needed]

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>>2795802
Couldn't have said it better myself!

>>2795896
Oh god fuck off, they don't have google in your shithole?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

>>2795828
I'll take "What's a double negative?" for $100 Alex.

Really they should just stay traps, why cut your dick off? It's okay to be a trap.

>>2795802
There are only 2 sexes, male and female. XX-XY chromosomes; however, sometimes there might be a disorder for example: XXY. As for genders, you can have as many as you fucking want, doesn't make it any less retarded, but no matter what your gender is, your sex will be either male or female.

>>2795981
XXY is still male.

>>2795981
I take issue with this definition of gender. there are not separate words to refer to someone's sex and someone's gender, so to call someone being a man a social construct in reference to gender is often conflated to say that being a boy or girl in reference to sex is a social construct. that's why I prefer to use gender and sex to mean the same thing (as it is in normal conversation) and use gender identity to refer to the social constructs built on top biological sex.

>>2795958
Ill take "that wasnt a double negative you fucking ape" for 2000

>>2795828
No one has ever been born with both sets of sexual organs. Hermaphrodites are literaly a greek myth.

>>2796045
not only mentally retarded, but financially as well I see

>>2795802
gender isn't sex.

I can't help but feel contempt for that image.

plenty of cultures have a concept of a third gender, or at least subversion of roles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muxe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sworn_virgins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koekchuch

honestly it surprised me too

>>2795802
I literally only go to 4chan, youtube and various porn sites.

>>2796948
And sometimes wikipedia

>>2795981
Does this make downs syndrome a gender?

>>2795802
Well i think their is some truth in the argument. There are examples of certain objects switching from male to female association through history. Two of the more famous ones are
>Pink was at some points considered a boys color
>Men wore skirts

>>2795802
No, there is no legitimate arguments for "muh social constructed genders" for any sane people. Only lgbt degenerates and SJW think there is one.

Genders is NOT social constructed, only "social constructed genders" or "fluid genders" theory is social constructed and fabricated bullshit by those perverted, psychotic degenerates to justify their insanity and perversion. Those sick degenerates deliberately misuse social or cultural image about sex as their crazy "identity" to "construct" the delusion in their heads. Deeply believe you are what you are NOT is a typical sign of insanity. It's a sickness, not human right, and not legitimate argument.

Gender or sex is crucial physical and genetic trait of life forms on earth which are decided by nature and evolution, not by mental illness or delusion who against law of nature. You are existed because of sex. Almost every animals and plants on earth have natural genders, not just humans.

Go take a look those disgusting lgbt parades, if you think that's fine and "normal", then you're as crazy as them. I can't even post their fucking disgusting pictures on normal blue boards, otherwise it'll be deleted or banned.

>>2797281
>>2797302
I thought gender by definition was the socially contrsutced half of sex which is the biological half.

>>2795806
FPBP

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>>2795802
look, nigga, your entire identity is a social construct. it's not just genders, that's an arbitrary limitation on this discussion that prevents anyone from learning anything.

nearly every behavior we have is informed by meme or something we observed as children and decided we liked after trying to imitate it. who "you" are is somewhere between your biological necessities for survival and rising to meet the physical and social expectations of the environment you developed in.

with that understanding, now let's hone in on gender. assuming you think of yourself as a man, your entire system of value and belief came from what you perceived to be "manly" during your developmental stages. whatever you think that is, e.g. building stuff, playing sports, not liking pink and dresses, it's all arbitrary and the criteria for what a man is would have varied wildly depending on the time and place you grew up in. you figured out your environment's criteria, conformed to it, and it works for you. that's cool. some people born as boys get to the conforming stage and then experience tremendous discomfort up to and including cognitive dissonance and depression (jury's still out on why, maybe hormone exposure in utero, maybe internal form of intersex disorder, maybe nonsense). then they try and evaluate the criteria for conforming to other genders in their environment, or stop trying to conform, and you end up with trans people

if you aren't the person described in the latter scenario, this is all you need to know
•trans people have been around as long as people have
•they aren't going away and can't control the way they feel about the incongruence between their biological sex and identity
•they are mostly harmless unless you're so insecure about your own shit that people minding their own business and doing what makes them happy upsets you

inb4
>B-BUT MUH DEGENER-
stop watching TV and go outside

Gender notions beyond simple biology are 100% social constructed.

>>2797445
/thread

fuck what they believe in, but in God's eyes, there will be two genders,

>>2797599
God can construct as many genders as ze want.

>>2797445
>Crazy progressive single mom sees her son play with her make up one day
>She believes that her son is lgbtqufje+ and tells him that he wants to be a woman
>Boy believes his mom and starts going through therapy where he is injected with a load of estrogen and testosterone blockers
>Becomes a literal freak of nature, literally still a male pumped with hormones and a mutilated dick
>Mother is so happy that she can show off her child to her Green voting friends
>B-but people have no right to consider this wrong because it was totally the childs own will right guys stop minding other peoples bussiness.

>>2795904

>he doesn't know what burden of proof is

oh god fuck off, don't they have basic critical skills in your shithole?

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haha, i didnt know the source of this picture
Also, "Generations" are a piece of shit made up by old people to complain about young people
fact is, young people are always entitled and progressively stop being entitleed as they grow up
"kids these days" is an expression that dates back to the classical greeks. its just nonsense. theres not such thing as generations

>>2797614
So...
You are saying...
That...
Generations are...
Social Constructs?

>>2797618

Kek.

>>2797445
your main argument is people feel a certain way and its not a big deal now therefore we shouldn't worry about it? how enlightening

I guess ill tackle this in a different manner.

I feel the best a society can do is become more complex. the more complex a society is the higher the possibility it has the tools to survive a catastrophe or the higher the possibility it has to reaching a new peak of humanity and evolving into a more effective being.

with that being said, I think complexity should be funneled into certain directions. with the internet coming out and a relatively stable society, I think we are going to become a more complex society anyways so its not like we aren't given much and need to make due with the energy we have.

in this, I think this will lead to a 'golden age' of gender identity philosophy theory. which is great for them but I can think of many other fields that could do better with a golden age. for example I prefer the golden age the alt right is bringing on in the sense of an overwhelming culture of racial identity that has spread to music, like vaporwave, a new art medium, memes, and political philosophies ( to a lesser extent philosophy in general and to an even lesser extent other sciences in general)

I like topics like these so a rebuttal or reply is welcome

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>>2795802

>>2797445
This is wrong. Trannies reaffirm gender essentialism more than they do tabula rasa bullshit anyway.

>>2795826
Unfortunately all the neckbeards will ignore this

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>>2795802
Gender is a social construct because that's how the people who use the word define it. Which is a circular argument, but not wrong.

>have two sexes for reproduction
>sexes develop social norms
>depending on context, concepts of male and female are tied to social norms more than sex
>to talk about this phenomena, gender is split off from sex as a purely social construct

Really, it's only formalising what had been implicit in language for a while (you're not a real man, she's got bigger balls than you, et cetera). The main problem is it's become a hot-button political issue. The bit inside a cell that carries your DNA is called a nucleus, and a cluster of brain cells is called a nucleus, but biologists don't get upset when they hear another biologist using the other definition of nucleus. Unfortunately, with gender, people are so emotionally invested in their definition they feel defensive whenever they see the "wrong" definition being used. Yes, this goes for both sides.

>>2797602
>implying that a therapist cannot tell the difference between a child pressured to think a certain way about themselves vs. a child who actually believes that they are transgender.
>implying parents go out of their way to do this

>>2797602
Good thing the real world isn't some dystopian nightmare all /pol/acks seem to be living in.

>>2795802
Gender roles are in part a social construct. There's nothing innate about how we gender fashion, for example, it's entirely a social construct. But men and women definitely have inherent psychological differences, on average, as well. These influence gender roles and how we define what's masculine and feminine in part, but not fully.

Third genders and the like, in my opinion, aren't really third genders. Because these are almost always characterised as someone who assumes the social roles of the gender opposite their biological sex, I think it's just a more primitive society's interpretation of transgender people.
Indeed, there are many stories of third gendered people, most notably hjira, deciding they're actually just trans when exposed to the modern knowledge we have. If there were true third genders, they'd have traits that are entirely their own rather than just amalgamations of masculine and feminine.

>>2797602
Firstly, doctors don't give estrogen or testosterone to children, only puberty blockers which are completely reversible with only minor side effects (increased height being the main one, which generally isn't seen as a negative anyways). Generally, actual hormone treatment can only be done starting at 14, although even this is uncommonly early. They definitely don't perform sexual reassignment surgery on minors either.

Secondly, diagnosing gender dysphoria in minors is extremely strict, the idea that insane parents will manipulate psychiatrists into an incorrect diagnosis is ridiculous. If for some reason the psychiatrist is corrupt and chooses to diagnose despite the child not matching the criteria, then that's a problem with shitty doctors, not a problem with the idea of transgender care for minors.

Finally, ensuring that trans people have the opportunity for proper treatment starting from a young age is extremely important. Untreated transgender people have very high suicide rates, which decrease as a result of hormonal treatments, surgery, etc. Unfortunately, trans people who have gone through the puberty of their natal sex will always possess certain permanent physical features of their natal sex sex, which causes them great distress. Thus, for trans people who only start treatment after puberty, rates of suicide, depression, etc are still higher than the general population (although it's still reduced from having no treatment at all).

However, giving transgender minors puberty blockers means they'll never experience the damaging effects of going through the wrong puberty. As a result, trans people who transition as minors have rates of suicide and depression no higher than the general population.

>>2798448
Also, gender identity is highly personal and all but impossible to be changed by outside influence. Hence why actual transwomen still identity as women despite being told by most of society for most of their lives that they're really just a man and having masculine roles pushed onto them.

A mother telling her child that they're transgender when they're really not isn't going to change anything.

>>2795802
It's definition.

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>>2795826
>there are places around the world that have three genders

Can we get an example?

>>2796049
>No one has ever been born with both sets of sexual organs. Hermaphrodites are literaly a greek myth.
You are wrong, hermaphrodites are pretty common in humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Gender being a social construct doesn't necessarily mean that it is not real. Both money and language are social constructs and they are both very real.
HOWEVER, while gender may be on a spectrum (meaning that no one is completely straight or gay) it doesn't imply that traditional gender roles are rubbish. History has proven more than enough that they are necessary for hierarchical societies and for the specialization of tasks. It's possible to appreciate a good male physique and not be attention whorish enough to demand a specific pronoun for the degree by which you are attracted to it.

>>2798500
I imagine he has hijras in mind, which are all over the place in the east.

>>2795802
Certain things associated with gender are mostly cultural(fashion for example) but most aren't. Sexual dimorphism is a real thing and it in turn makes gender a real thing that would exist even if society blew up and the few people left lost all touch or memory with it.

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>>2795802
Cultural changes resulting in gender changing while sex doesn't. Easiest example is probably pink going from being a masculine to feminine colour.

Ain't rocket science.

>>2798604
>Easiest example is probably pink going from being a masculine to feminine colour.
And guess what most women are still as meek and submissive as they were in 10000 BC
They still collapse at the first sign of male aggression same as their female homo erectus ancestors did a million years ago
Fuck outta here with your tumblr nonsense

>>2795802
>Vine taught me to laugh
Since when is Vine funny?

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>>2798615
So? That doesn't contradict what I wrote. Stop thinking about cocks, it's impairing on your reading comprehension.

Sexuality is unnatural nature. It doesn't make sense from a natural point of view to jack off to a fucking pair of leather boots, but yet it is still a manifestation of our sexual instinct.

Friendly reminder that John Money, the man who came up with the "gender is fluid" meme literally drove someone to suicide after destroying their entire childhood. The funny thing is his experiment failed and David Reimer, the subject of the experiment, ended up identifying as a male around age 9-11

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/samanthakatepsychology.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/david-reimer-possibly-the-most-unethical-study-in-psychological-history/amp/

Gender and sex are the same thing, both are biologically determined.

>>2798759
The David Reimer case actually supports trans people though, it just discredits the idea of gender identity as a social construct. Reimer was a male-brained person who was forced to live as a girl and have the physical characteristics of one. It's the same as any trans person, having your sense of self be incongruent with your physical body. The only difference is that his was caused by a quack psychologist rather than a mishap in the womb. Gender and sex aren't the same thing, they just aren't social constructs.

>>2795802
Only one I know so far:
>Being manly and feminine mean slightly different things in various parts of the world
>This is why words mean nothing

>>2798410
>There's nothing innate about how we gender fashion
Sorry but you will never sell clothes without pockets or shoes you can't run with to a man.

>>2796944
>when the post that disproves all the right-wing bullshit gets no responses cause it kills the narrative

>>2798888
Nice number.

No one answered your post because esoterism in the third world is not a valid proof that biology don't apply to humans.

>>2797445
/thread

>>2797645
His main argument is that societal roles are largely arbitrary. You wouldnt consider pederasty in the same light as the ancient Greeks.

>>2795802
WHat the fuck is Etsy?

>>2798906
1. It wasn't my post
2. This isn't even an argument, you're simply wrong and a number of cultures accross the planet with different conceptions of gender prove this.

Gender norms and whatnot are a social construct.

>>2795802
It is in part biological, but I think we downplay significantly the social aspect of how we define gender. Like me, I'm a girl with a fairly large ass, that's biological nothing I can do about it (working out a lot only made it more firm lol), but I never liked pink, a 'girls' color according to society. But I never identified as a boy, trans people I imagine take this to another level, due to the biological factor which hardwires them to identify a certain way.

>>2795802
This is fucking bullshit. I post a semi-pol related thread like this on /his/ and I get fucking banned for 3 days. What the fuck Mods.

>>2798934
>Gender norms and whatnot are a social construct.
This is like your opinion.

Men are built strong, women are build to carry babies.
Men's brain is object oriented, women's brain is people oriented.
Men have a predisposition for confronting problems, women have a predisposition to take care of others.

Genders roles are just the natural consequences of our biology.

A spiritist/animist/chamanic religion in the Ural don't change that.

I think the extreme ends of both arguments are pretty retarded tbqh.

On the pro-side in fairness "gender is a social construct" does not mean that a claim that biological sex is a social construct, it means that the different roles males and females play in society is socially constructed. You can see this is partially true, a hundred years ago if we had this discussion there would be claims that females were biologically determined to stay at home doing housework while men went to work.

On the anti-side it is blatantly obvious to anyone that (while everyone is different) there are general behaviour traits that differ between males and females, even from a young age, that are biologically determined. Boys and men tend to be more likely to get into physical fights for example.

As for transvestites, if the medical claims about brain scans and gender dysphoria are true, only proves that there are some genuine biologically determined behavioural traits that differ between men and women.

>>2798930
>Etsy is a peer-to-peer e-commerce website focused on handmade or vintage items and supplies, as well as unique factory-manufactured items.
>0.0003 seconds in google

>>2798956
>Men are built strong, women are build to carry babies.

>Men's brain is object oriented, women's brain is people oriented.

>Men have a predisposition for confronting problems, women have a predisposition to take care of others.

These assertions are all proven wrong by the existence of third genders in some cultures. I'm not sure why you keep pretending to be right when you're demonstrably wrong. This is painful and embarrassing, just stop.

>>2799008
>These assertions are all proven wrong by the existence of third genders in some cultures

Not him and I wouldn't endorse all his views but that simply isn't true. Third genders exist because a small percentage of people are born that are biologically,either purely because of differences in their brain or because of actual bodily traits, that are between male and female.

Men are much stronger than women on average and while "built to carry babies" isn't the way I would phrase it, it is certainly true that only women and not men (and generally not third genders) are able to get pregnant and give birth.

I'm not saying he is right but the counter-argument you are making is even more embarrassingly factually wrong.

>>2799002
thanks

>>2795826
this

having a penis is one thing, but having that correlate to anger, hunting, beer, etc is arbitrary. there are bunches of standards that change throughout cultures and throughout time.

Trannies still can't decide between gender essentialism which justifies them mutilating their cocks or 76 different genders being on a spectrum. There are inherent differences between male and female brains except there aren't except there are exceptions there aren't. Where are all the crotchety old second wave feminists from the 70s on this? Shouldn't they be throwing a massive shitfit?

It's all degenerate jewish science and French post modernism I hope they all fucking die

>>2799069

There are a bunch of standards that have changed throughout history and place. A tendency to be more physically aggressive (not necessarily more prone to anger, but certainly more probable to express it physically) and being the hunter in early societies and more likely to find hunting an enjoyable pursuit in modern societies haven't changed.

Claiming the fact that some behaviours are variable means that all male and female differences in behaviour are entirely socially constructed is a logical fallacy.

>>2799008
How does some culture's exotism prove me wrong?

Are you denying that men have more muscular mass and a larger mass proportion than women?
Are you denying men are better at modelling 3D objects?
Are you denying the hormones of men make them have a body built for physical use and a behaviour more impulsive?

Even trans know that and take an hormone treatment to make their body look like the other gender.

If you refuse to look at the evidences, you are the young hearth creationist of the gender world.

>>2798883
The fact that there are tons of women who complain about their lack of pockets or wearing heels show that's it's a purely practical concern, not a problem of gender.

>>2799069
Show me a culture where the coal miners are female. Where the industrial, dangerous, physical jobs are taken by women.

Show me a culture where warriors are women, where sailors are women.

Just a single one.

>>2799208
If it was a problem for them, they would not complain at it. They would wear regular clothes and shoes and call it a day. If it too difficult to find some, they would make it and sell it. This is the men way.

What they do is to complain on the internet.

>>2798883
>>2799208
Also, as you may be aware, heels were originally unisex footwear.

>>2799220
So you're agreeing with my point, then? Certain parts of our perception of gender are entirely social constructs like fashion. But the genders also tend to have innate differences in how they act, think, etc.

>They would wear regular clothes and shoes and call it a day.
Many women already do.

>>2799223
Show me.

>>2799213
the ypj
stop moving the goalposts though

>>2799243
If you make the assumption that this social construct spontaneously appear in any society and that it is a pre requite to its survival, yes.

>>2799248
The YPJ is not a culture.
It is a part of a militia/irregular army.

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>>2799246

>>2795802
Gender *is* a social construct - or rather, the term "gender" refers to the socialized elements of sex. People misuse the world all the time and some even deliberately misuse it to suggest that "sex" can change, but the thing is, gender is influenced by sex, but is not dictated by it.

Gender is what you'd refer to as "feminine" or "masculine" behaviors, and is distinct from the concept of sex, which is purely biological.

>>2795826
Yeah, this is the one that makes sense.

You have a dick or a cunt, but it doesn't lock you into acting a certain way.

>>2799248

Not him, but picking out tiny cases of outliers doesn't disprove the assumption of that sailors and soldiers, and really just about any job where physical strength is a potential factor in performance, is going to be overwhelmingly male-dominated. Yes, female pirates existed. But if you attempted to characterize piracy as a female profession because of that, you'd be outrageously deluded.

>>2797307
It is. >>2797302 is just retarded.

Gender already has a meaning, you don't get to just redefine it to suit your argument. Gender has always referred to the socialized elements of sex.

>>2797445
This guy gets it.

>>2799269
Fair point, but it's still far from what modern women wear.

>>2797645
Clearly it is enlightening since so many people are incapable of understanding it.

People need to mind their own fucking business.

>>2798448
>the idea that insane parents will manipulate psychiatrists into an incorrect diagnosis is ridiculous.

My man, I agree with the rest of your post, but you clearly have no idea what kind of ridiculous shit parents can force on their children. They don't have to trick the psychiatrist, they just have to manipulate their child.

That said manipulating a psychiatrist is also totally possible.

Abusive parents are a real thing.

>>2795826
Gender is the description of the behavior of the sexes. It's a role you play in a civilized society and it is good. If you break that you're destroying what is good. You should behave according to your assigned roles or you're taking away from society.

>>2799407
Yeah, I see what you mean. Still, that's a problem with shitty parenting, not a problem with transgender care.

>>2799306
>>2795826
The counter argument for this is that in nearly all societies we see the two different sexes/genders following stereotypes in every walk of life, most notably careers. No women works for railway construction, and few men want to work as nurses. This is a global phenomena so it's not really imposed by different cultures.

>>2799407

Abusive parents are a real thing and parents manipulating a psychiatrist is possible but abusive parents and an easily manipulated and incompetent psychiatrist in the same scenario is improbable and would be incredibly rare.

You do understand it is entirely possible you could be hit by a meteorite tomorrow, right? It's just very unlikely.

Dreaming up rare scenarios is not an argument to anything in the post you replied to.

>>2798859
Yes but gender is social, in the sense that one can "live as a male" or "live as a female" without it being directly tied to sexuality.

The very fact that someone could be forced to "live as a girl" proves the argument that there are social elements to gender identity. Being forced to wear dresses obviously fucked with the dudes mental health, however a dress is not inherently feminine, it's merely a social construct that determines this.

>>2799452
>gender is just roleplaying guys, if you don't do it you don't fit in with the LARP xD

You're as bad as the social constructivist faggots

>>2799811
I'm not debating things like fashion, those are clearly social constructs. But things like breasts, curves, facial and body hair, voice changes, etc, are not, but they still cause issues for anyone with a gender identity incongruent to their body, because it's not caused by social constructs.

>>2795802
Gender = social expectations based on biological sex. Sex =/= gender.

How the fuck is it not a social construct? Your dick or a vagina is not a social construct (well, it is, technically, but to the same extent as everything else in the world), what expectations SOCIETY has CONSTRUCTED for you based on them, however, is.

Is that hard?

>>2799871
No matter how hard it makes you rage you'll never be able to schism gender from biological sex. Stay triggered.

>being upset in the slightest whether a person believes he is a he or a she, regardless of genatalia
>being upset in the slightest when a person refers to you as he instead of she

honestly who gives two fucks? what kind of people define themselves by pronouns? both sides need to get over it, it's incredibly irrelevant and distracting.

>>2795802
linguistic anthropologists have found that many different cultures have words for many different genders. one example is "two spirit"

the torah has six genders

>>2795815
liberals are not leftists

>>2799908
t. /leftypol/ trying to schism center-left from far-left once more because IT NOT REULLLL SOCIALISM

Cry harder.

>>2797445
>identity is a meme

okay, so you have no color preference. you are ambidextrous, you require no training when driving in different countries and people drive on different sides of the road, you have no food preferences... you're just a blank slate?

fuck off.

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>>2799920
once again, liberals are not leftists. liberals are right of center capitalists. you cannot be a capitalist and be on the left.

this is a liberal economist talking about fascism, which is patently right wing. get a clue.

>>2799901
to elaborate

>social issues

Not even once. The lowest of priorities for me. I generally side with freedom and choice though. People need to be more accepting and quit voting on things like abortion and homosexuality. There shouldn't be any legislation regarding social issues, ever. People need to lay off the prejudice and intolerance, we've got way, way bigger issues to deal with than a chick with a dick pissing in the men's room.

>>2799935
>get a clue

t. /leftypol/ whining at unsuccessful indoctrination.

Sorry I don't praise Marx or Engels or Lenin or Bookchin or Bakunin sorecheeks, you'll have to find another convert. Modern liberals are social democrats pretending otherwise and social democrats are leftist no matter how hard it triggers your delicate communist sense of NO TRUE SOCIALISM ANYWHERREEEEE.

Kill yourself!

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>>2799889
It already is schismed.

Please mind that gender concepts were dynamically changing over the past millenia. Society's superstructure is defined by nothing but the givens society's means of production. And our contemporary Western economic system is simply one that doesn't necessitate the concept of gender altogether. The process will finish itself no matter what I or you do. It's just natural.

>>2799951
>modern liberals are social democrats
oh, is that why the DNC cheated and didn't let bernie sanders win?

it's like you have no clue what you're talking about. go back to /pol/ where you belong

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>>2799964
>DNC conspiracy!!!!
>muh sanders

oh lawd my sides haven't been tickled this hard since I last visited your shithole safespace

Stay crying about your continuous losing through, like, the entirety of 2016 loooooooooooooooooooooooool

>>2797445
Then why have the social roles of men been the same in almost all cultures for the entirety of human history?

Do you really believe evolution doesn't effect the brain?

You're insane. You're brainwashed.

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>>2799961
>We will bury you!!!!!!

Yeah nah tranny. If the stormfags aren't threatening with these tactics you certainly won't be either. Enjoy eight years of Trump/Pence.

>>2799942
What a fucking milquetoast normie view.

No, if everyone had unlimited freedom, society would crumble and be replaced by people who value morality and family. See: the Muslim invasion of Europe

>>2799988
Spotted the arababoo

>this delusion that goat fucking childfucking mudslimes have any view of morality

>>2799979
yes, dnc conspiracy. now get the fuck back to /pol/ you tard

http://observer.com/2017/04/hearing-set-dnc-class-action-lawsuit-bernie-sanders/

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>>2799991
OH LAWD HE POSTED THE OBSERVER AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

10/10

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>>2795802
MUH

PATRIARCHY

>>2799961
Men are protectors, inventors, and dominant.

Women are motherly and submissive.

Show me a society where this is not true. It's 100% evolutionary.

>>2799988
>unlimited freedom

Not at all what I was saying. Also, you think morality is objective? Wew.

>>2800001
Just stop. You don't know what you're talking about. Come back when you've graduated college.

>>2799220
It's not actually that simple.

Women are not like men physically, they have certain sizing concerns and sensitivity concerns that cannot be easily just "fixed".

Also, complaining about a large scale problem doesn't mean you want to have to be the one to fix all of it.

What, because nobody has pants that make sense you have to start an entire business dedicated to that?

That's retarded. Complaining is the same thing as expressing consumer demand in a capitalist society. Just sayin.

>>2800009
I'm 31. Now hit me with another ad hom bitch boy.

>>2799345
Gotta keep moving those goalposts.

>>2800014
Ah, so you're a woman. Women are always children.

>>2800017
>>2800014
>>2800009
debate is le game of insults and pointing out le logical phallacies looool just like on Reddit

upboated!

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>>2799995
>>2799995
liberals are controlled opposition, buddy. their job is to betray the working class and minorities. they get funding from corporations just like republicans.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dnc-argues-in-court-we-dont-owe-anyone-a-fair-primary-process/article/2621767

>>2800000
hunter gatherer tribes

>>2795802
if we define gender as the difference in norms and expectations between those who are biologically male and those who are biologically female then yes, obviously its a social construct because different civilizations have had very different definitions of and expectations for masculinity

>>2800029
lol no. Hunter gatherers are almost the most gender-stratified societies. Men hunt, women raise kids. Because of biology, it cannot be any other way.

>>2799480
You can't ignore that though. That's like saying "oh it's cool to give everyone opioids for everything because you'll only maybe get addicted"

It's something that actually requires consideration. There are many incompetent people out there, we're not talking about 2 or 3 here.

>>2799541
It's not rare. You vastly overestimate the amount of shits psychiatrists actually give. They hand out pills like candy, and I'm speaking from experience. Hell, the principal at my elementary school tried to convince my parents to put me on ADHD meds because I was a hyper kid.

Fuck just think about the psychs that get kickbacks from pharma, and as a result overdiagnose.

What we're discussing is not a small issue. Adults can do whatever they want but kids don't have rights, they're at the mercy of the adults around them, and as such need to be protected from abusers.

People defending gender theory makes me cringe.

As some anon here have said, according to the theory, the biological sex is real, but gender would be, for example, societal roles.

But the thing is, they claim that gender such as M/F are social constructs, but why transgenderisms aren't social constructs as well?
Aren't they also following a trend? Isn't it some sort of social engineering?
Because you know, I've been observing the arguments and they make no sense, it is something like "women wears dress because it is imposed gender role" but then when a man decides to wear a dress, isn't this man absorbing that construction of the opposite gender?

In other words, to one act according to its gender is an abnormal imposition, but to one act according to its opposite gender (which was claimed to be an imposed value) is okay.
All of it is semantically crippled.

>>2800036
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-scientists

>>2799863
Yeah but those are sex characteristics. Also all of those things are to a degree social. Just look at all the "flat is justice" and lolicon types.

Male an Female are sexes, but masculinity and femininity are social concepts.

>>2799986
We won't bury you. You will just probably do 50% of the housework in your future. If you don't pop your bubble though it might be a hundred.
I don't really mind Trump as long as he keeps US foreign policy in its traditional tracks. If he supports globalism and protects international trade, he is pushing the dissolution of traditional gender roles in the West no matter what.
>>2800000
>Checked quints of lame half-truth
It has been so for the most part, as our methods of production demanded so. There are, however, pre-agricultural societies that are female-dominated - their methods don't favour the same way of gender partition as that of more advanced agricultural societies.If you observe a truly developed North-Western European country (Nordics, Finns, the Dutch, even the Germans), you will see that what you wrote might still apply to some extent, but not nearly to the same as in industrial/pre-industrial, or just less developed Western nations. The tendencies are clear. Put the puzzle together.

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>>2800024
do you honesty think I'm clicking on your clickbait? LOL

go back to /leftypol/, seriously. It's too obvious you're a skeletonchanner.

>>2800046
>theguardian
It's bullshit. Literally use your brain, women cannot physically hunt, and letting them fight in wars and potentially be killed is ridiculous, because women need to beget and raise children.

Gender roles are deeply biological.

>>2800049
>There are, however, pre-agricultural societies that are female-dominated - their methods don't favour the same way of gender partition as that of more advanced agricultural societies.
There's a reason they never advanced. Patriarchal societies are stronger, and therefore superior to random jungle niggers who still worship statues of fat ladies

>>2800042
Uh, dude, 'social construct' doesn't just mean 'something that's bad'. It means that it's not absolute and can be dissolved/questioned without the world falling apart. No one is going to tell you that transgenderism isn't a social construct. Also there are very few people that would tell you that it's bad to act according to your own sex-based gender, depending what you mean by it.

Gender theory chose a really garbage way to go from this point, though.

>>2800064
Not all questions are good. Gender is essential to society, it should be completely obvious why it exists. You liberal shits are deeply delusional.

>>2800060
I expected your response exactly and it shows you fail to understand the logic behind things.

>Production --> superstructure. that's it.

It's not being male-dominated that led certain societies to discover agriculture. It's that societies that developed ways to increase their food/industrial outpout now were better off making women pump out kids as a full-time job as they had enough to support them.

>>2800021
>so to win, you have to get the ball in the goal
>okay well but you didn't get it in the *middle* of the goal
>no, it has to touch the net in the back
>"stop moving the goalposts"
>LOL LOL REDDIT KEK LOL REDDIT UPBOAT

Okay.

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>>2800049
I do 100% of my housework in the present you monkey. I'm a man. That's what we do. I'm own and take care of my house. You will never understand this because you've fallen for a meme cause and tricked yourself doubly into thinking it's an inevitability.

Go back to your FALC transhumanist pipe dreams. It's clear your head is too far in the clouds for actual debate.

>>2800064
So if this "social construction" is not bad, why it is even a thing to try to deconstruct it by another construction? What is the aim of it?

>>2800067
>>2800049
>>2799961
These are my other posts. There was a reason for traditional gender roles, they were not 'oppression' but a logical way to arrange things to maximise outpout. Now those reasons are gone. Our production is different.

>>2800074
You're idiotic, there was no egalitarianism in hunter gatherer societies. Women still stayed home and pumped out kids, and maybe they picked berries and cooked meat. Gender roles are essential.

>>2800081
They aren't gone. Liberal society is deeply unstable, and whenever we run out of oil or the global economy collapses, Muslims will be the rightful owners of Europe. Not that that's a bad thing. Islam will make the world new again.

>>2800076
>Go back to your FALC transhumanist pipe dreams

I have no idea what those are senpai. But I don't see your point defending traditional gender roles and claiming that living alone and doing all the housework is 'what men do.'

>>2800088
I never said there was egalitarianism. However it was often quite different from feudal and similarly arranged societies, to the point that some of them were straight-up female dominated.

>They aren't gone. Liberal society is deeply unstable, and whenever we run out of oil or the global economy collapses, Muslims will be the rightful owners of Europe. Not that that's a bad thing. Islam will make the world new again.

Uh-huh buddy

>>2800060
>Women cannot physically hunt

What the fuck are you even talking about?

What a woman can't chuck a spear? A woman can't shoot a gun?

You've gone full retard here. Yes the sexes have different biological bonuses that are derived from hunter gatherer pasts, but they are not static, nor insurmountable. Part of this makes sense from a evolutionary perspective as well. Yes, women stay at home because they bear the responsibility of child birth which is a long and vulnerable process, however, if the male gets injured, to what benefit is it to the family unit for the woman to be completely unable to assume the role of hunter no matter how temporary?

We have biological leanings that inform gender identity, but they are the the only things and they are not necessarily static.

>>2800067
So you're just an authoritarian traditionalist, got it.

Never, at any point in history, has your kind been right about literally anything, or helped society progress.

>>2800079
What is being deconstructed is the construct of adhering to constructs. It would promote adaptability if done right.

But it looks like you inform yourself about these things from the loudest and dumbest representatives of the 'liberal' sphere.

>>2800096
They weren't that different. It's fundamentally the same thing. Female-dominated societies are shit and always will be, because matriarchies are weak.

>>2800097
It's extremely inefficient for women to hunt. They don't have the strength or stamina of men.

Women cannot be hunters because young women need to be alive in a functioning society.

Why do I bother, liberals are literal evolution denialists

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>>2800091
>doing all the work yourself so your wife can do what she does best: looking pretty
>not the manliest thing imaginable

Trannies can't understand what it means to be a man because you're all brain damaged. Me, I've never wanted to turn my dick inside out for a fetish so I can't understand what it's like to be mentally ill. So it's natural you see no virtue in doing work or getting your hands dirty. You're on 4chan, after all, what work have you ever done? lol

>>2800105
Social "constructs" are necessary you fucking idiot. I'm half convinced that liberals feel a kind of perverse satisfaction at weakening and killing their own societies.

>>2800108
Female-dominated societies are weak because they are either in the middle of a fucking jungle where everything is out to murder you or some bloody desert where nothing grows. The lack of agricultural possibility prevents their transition.

>>2800121
>muh amazons in le rainforest

Stop. You're regurgitating historical memes.

>>2800121
It's both; people in good environments become patriarchal because patriarchy is the most efficient social system. Two choices: either become patriarchal or be invaded by those who already are. Of course, niggers with no space to grow don't change from their most primitive ways.

>>2800108
>I can't read

Read my post, retard. Not being the best for the job does not mean being incapable. History also shows us that even in hunter-gatherer societies, there were times in which women were expected to take on masculine roles. For example in feudal Japan women were also taught martial arts so that they could defend the home if needed.

Also what you're saying suggests that there is no woman out there that has more stamina than a man, or muscle mass. I guarantee you your untrained ass wouldn't beat a woman Olympiad, or UFC fighter.

Even biological sex is designed to have flexibility, specifically because the environment can very easily change.

Yes, men are typically stronger and better suited to hunting, but women are capable of it, because the species is adaptable, and there are many examples all over the world of harsh environments where women also carry at least some of the workload that the men do.

Educate yourself you ignorant nigger.

>>2800116
Yes buddy, some of them are. Some of them aren't. The environment is changing quickly. By being accustomed to actually changing your opinions mid-life when needed instead of clinging to what you grew up with would mean far stronger societies.

>>2800110
I don't attack your way of life famalam, but it's still nothing like traditional gender roles. You basically deconstructed traditional gender in your own way, congratulations.

>>2800110
>The pot calling the kettle black

Don't try to pretend you're anything but a basement dwelling NEET, my man.

>>2800132
>History also shows us that even in H-G societies (...)
>For example (sic) in feudal Japan

And I stopped reading right there!

>>2800129
That's pretty much what I'm saying bro. Expect the dumb niggers part. But for this choice to arise, certain economic prerequisites have to be met.

>>2800132
Look, retard. Not being the best for the job is the same as being incapable, at least in the wilderness. Minor regional variations don't change the underlying biological roles. Obviously women have to work in some capacity, but they do not fight wars or invent machines.

>>2800138
>Yes buddy, some of them are. Some of them aren't. The environment is changing quickly. By being accustomed to actually changing your opinions mid-life when needed instead of clinging to what you grew up with would mean far stronger societies.
Quite the opposite in fact.

>>2800138
>>2800139
>Can't argue back with anything but insults and lol no I'm still rite

Typical women, or men pretending to be women I should type. To be fair, it's not like either of you would've made it as anything more than a nu-male in this society so maybe it's better you take degenerate dick. Even they need to get laid, after all!

>>2800143
>(sic)

So you really can't read, then?

>>2800151
Where the fuck have I insulted you?

>>2800156
t. doesn't understand basic English grammar rules, uses insults to run away from his mistake

>>2800148
>Quite the opposite in fact.

I can't really reply to this any more.

>>2800162
Jesus, it's like you're all taking estrogen pills. Oh wait...

Look at the second post I quoted, sweet-cheeks, and get back to me. Nice and slowly now, wouldn't want to strain that "female" brain of yours.

>>2800151
>I should type

Jesus take your fedora back to the YouTube comments section, you euphoric autist.

>>2800169
Imagine if a bunch of nu-male liberals sailed to America as Puritans. Due to their enlightened skepticism, after the first winter they would decide that God isn't with them and commit ritual seppuku

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>>2800172
Did I make every tranny on /his/ butthurt just by stating I'm a man and take care of myself?

LOL it's like you can't even handle basic expressions of maleness in your desperate everything-must-be-female-or-"gender fluid"-androgyne-blob-world.

Gotta imagine it must be a fetish 90% of the time for you people.

>>2800163
What grammar mistake. Explain yourself. Or don't, it doesn't matter because

>can't debate the content of the argument, so has to resort to grammar-nitpick petty-fogging to avoid actually having to come up with a response.

It's okay to just stop posting, you know.

>>2800182
>projecting

Okay.

>>2799926
You're a fucking moron who can't understand how much of your worldview is influenced by your environment. Do you think the abducted and assimilated children of white settlers on the Great Plains had the same fucking identity and preferences as children who grew up in white society?

>>2800171
That was not me, if you want to reply to one person with a meme arrow and not the other either do so this way:
>>reffed post 1
>reply 1
>>reffed post 2
>reply 2

OR, another way to indicate your intentions would be:

>General response

>>reffed post
>Post-specific response

Or at least put a fucking linebreak between the quoted posts.

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>>2800184
>I don't know what a comma or a hunter gatherer society is: the post

I'm sorry, my sides haven't recovered from this thread yet ahahahahhahhahahhahahhahaha

stay classy /his/

>>2800105
>But it looks like you inform yourself about these things from the loudest and dumbest representatives of the 'liberal' sphere.

So this ideology is too complex for me, and too complex even for its followers, that seem to misinform others due their lack of information?

I see. Let me just push the Ockham's Razor and cut this bullshit off.

>>2799983
>social roles of men have been the same in almost all cultures for the entirety of human history
Because you're a fucking jackass basing your argument on a spectacularly false assumption.

>>2800194
>>2800191

>If you want to reply to more than one person do it my personalized way

Just like a woman! Except Dylan's not writing any songs about you lmfao. How about being less autistic on your end and reading every post quoted before replying so you don't make yourself look like an idiot? Nah, too much for the estrogen-taker.

>>2800196
>still dodging the argument
>even has to dodge somebody pointing it out
>trying to go full grammar-nazi Manchurian finger painting board

And you call me the fedoralord. Lol.

>>2800209
Is it fun, talking to yourself?

>>2800215
>uses feudal japan as an example of an H-G society
>expects anyone to take your argument seriously

even now you've managed to shitpost far beyond your original (failed) point with a tangent loooooooooooooool now you'll pretend you were just trolling, you don't actually have any opinions and nobody was meant to take you seriously at all.

>>2800201
The names of ideologies eventually become umbrella terms for a bunch of separate thoughts that are or are not connected to each other in any way. Liberal ideology is not complex at all. And I would agree that a huge portion of liberals are idiots, hypocrites and are in no way different from their right-wing counterparts. This includes most 'liberal' media, sadly. I'm becoming more and more embarassed to call myself one since these fucks have hijacked the term.

>>2800208
Men and women have had the same gender roles since hunter-gatherer times. That's why people still view Odysseus as the embodiment of ideal masculinity thousands of years after the Odyssey was written.

The rest is minor differences in fashion. The fundamental values are the same.

>>2800220
>Who are you quoting meme in 2017

lool do you even have a point anymore tranny? or is it just tears and whining and NO U? you can always just stop replying loooooooooooooooool.

>>2795802
ex is a fact. Gender is subjective and a spectrum with masculinity and femininity at polar opposites of the spectrum. Either sex can locate at any point on the spectrum. Neither sex "owns" a half of the spectrum. Males don't own the masculine side and females don't own the feminine side. Most males lean toward the masculine side and identify as the "man" gender. Most females lean toward the feminine side and identify as the "woman" gender. This is a generality so there's exceptions to the norm. To put it simply, a male that identifies as a woman is no more a contradiction then a female who identifies as a woman, it's just atypical. The male isn't pretending to be a female anymore than a house cat is pretending to be a tiger. They're just two variations of a master category. House cats and tigers are two types of felines. Males and females are two types of women. If you confuse a house cat for a tiger then you're at fault. If you confuse a male woman for a female woman then youu're at fault. That's why the claim that trans people are fake or pretending is an illegitimate claim. The confusion results from the mental failure of not distinguishing between sex and gender. They become so accustomed to the norm that they forget about the exceptions to the norm so that they erroneously believe that all males must be the man gender and all females must be the woman gender. It's so ingrained in their minds that they unwittingly believe in and enforce gender roles, like a fish unaware of water.

>>2800235
There he goes again. Like a robot, just shitting out these answers automatically, reflexively, without any thought, because the media told him.

Look at him and laugh:

>>2800097
Not him but even with intense physical conditioning women would have a substantially harder time generating the physical force necessary and completing the athletic movement of a javelin throw capable of taking down big game. Also, women can't run quite as fast or easily as men. After training for about 6 months, I can pretty much run my cardiobunny girlfriend into the ground twice over because her hip and tit configurations aren't optimal for running.

The average pubescent boy can beat the shit out of 99% of women.

>>2800222
If it's not an H-G society then your point is still invalidated.

>>2800209
Sorry senpai, you are simply failing to comprehend basic logic. You quoted a post that insulted you and one that didn't and replied to both at the same time. It was quite obvious that they were not from the same person. It's you who is expecting everyone to think by a logic and knowledge known only by them without conveying it - this is quite typically done by women. I really hate to be sexist, but it is. (It's gonna change though, thankfully.)

>>2800245
It's common knowledge that women were primarily the gatherers in H-G societies. Only social constructivist faggots get butthurt at it.

>>2800250
lool do you even have a point anymore tranny? or is it just tears and whining and NO U? you can always just stop replying loooooooooooooooool.

>>2800227
Doesn't mean they're not arbitrary.

>>2800232
Christ you're embarrassing.

>>2800244
Why do you get so worked up about this shit? I have no horse in this race, I'm a man and I've literally never doubted it but I enjoy reading about theories and alternate perspectives.

>>2800262
lool do you even have a point anymore tranny? or is it just tears and whining and NO U? you can always just stop replying loooooooooooooooool.

>>2800259
Gender roles are meaningful and based in biology. They are not "arbitrary".

>>2800267
Why do you "people" think spamming u mad over and over again is the right way to convince someone of your ideas?

It's like you're overemotional women.... lol

>>2800225
The thing is that, when you study their stuff and disagree, they dishonestly say you are misinformed or don't want to give away your principles (as if your principles were bad in some sort).
It is incredible how these "liberal" intellectuals try to make an ivory tower of their beliefs, and there will be always something missing whenever you criticize their logic. Even when it is nothing but a epistemological cartoon, a risible attempt of materializing metaphysical concepts.

>>2800258
My point is that you are either a troll or a complete retard, friendo. Or just very young, idk.

>>2800245
Not the fucking point. The point is capability. They are capable. They are not optimized, they are not ideal. They are capable, because humans are adaptable. Listen to what I'm actually saying and not what you think I'm saying Jesus fuck.

>>2800273
>My point is literally just tears and whining and NO U

Okay, no reason to take you seriously then. :)

>>2800274
Women may be capable in some extreme situations, but on a whole they are not. Even if they were, motherhood is more important. No amount of mental hoop-jumping will change biological reality.

>>2800271
Yes that's a quite common phenomenon. It's very often just hypocritically thrown out there when they don't want to/can't argue back, but it's also quite common that certain ones are right in this accusation. My problem is that the ones who belong to the former group undermine the credibility of the label 'liberal' and are so violent and absolutist in ther reactions that even the ones who are willing to engage others in civil debate are handled with the preassumption that they are the same as them.

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The manifestation of gender is a social construct. Not every man watches football even though it's associated with men, and not every woman wears 16 layers of make-up, even though make up is associated with women, and vice versa.

That said, I would challenge anyone to find behaviors that do not correlate at all with what we as a society deem as either masculine or feminine.

You won't find it in my opinion, which is why I personally think that the claim that people can be non-binary is bullshit, because it literally doesn't relate to how we view gender as a society in any sociological or social sense at all, it's just an empty void.

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>>2800277

>>2800269
Gender roles are optimized by biology but they are ultimately determined and assigned by the demands placed upon a society by the environment.

>>2800292
Stereotypes are not the same thing as gender. Masculinity has nothing to do with football, but masculinity is real.

That's like saying race isn't real because not all niggers listen to rap.

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>>2800296
>Tranny too dumb to realize mirrors don't work over a computer screen

Non-mutilated non-estrogen taking males win again.

>>2800269
People don't even have the same idea of what is masculine from person to person, dude.

You all suffer from a really bad case of "the way I view the world is the way everyone views the world".

>>2800302
Then it is fundamental, because Earth doesn't vary widely enough in environment to create functional matriarchies.

>>2800309
Gender is still real and observable.

>>2796944
>>2795826
And you'd do well to include that OF those places with multiple genders, ALL of them are still rooted in male/female sexual categories. Third genders across the globe address those of one sex that socially participate, domestically and sexually, like the other. And the vast majority of them are reserved for males who wish to take feminine roles.

Third genders are just another reinforcement of the male/female dichotomy which stand testament to the intrinsic relation between sex and gender.

Gender is how we socially understand sex, of course its strongly correlative. This is why I've always considered trans stuff understandable but the non-binary/agender "identities" disingenuous social performances

>>2797445
Close, but this shit isn't just arbitrary. Your biology is dictating you from day one just like your social environment, its a 2-dimensional thing. By saying "your entire identity is a social construct" and then blabbing about how biology builds an identity which causes people to not identify with their socially constructed gender is self contradictory.

>>2800321
Third genders are basically just eunuchs

>>2800306
The concept of masculinity is literally just how we perceive men and how we think men should act.

There isn't anything beyond that, but you're welcome to argue different.

>>2799213
Armies weren't female-friendly until recently

>>2800327
Idealists are scum and arguing with them is equivalent to arguing with a brick wall that says AS LONG AS I CAN IMAGINE IT IT EXISTS GUYYYYYSS

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>>2800307
>beta numale with alpha fantasies cucked into doing all the housework for his ugly fat wife with no job has a mind too clouded to fathom the concept of a metaphor


Why am I surprised?

>>2795823
Name a few

>>2800327
Except men act certain ways essentially, because of biology.

>>2800309
Just because its not the same down to a fucking T doesn't mean there is no such thing as "masculine." Its a common abstract category universal across human civilization, the minutia is irrelevant. God, imagine being this dense....

>>2800309
How fundamentally do you really think all human populations differ? Spoiler: in significant metrics, its not that much

>>2800281
I was replying to him saying that it was flat out impossible, which is untrue and retarded.

Also you make it sound way harder than it is for a woman to do physical labor. It's not. They do physical labor all the time, dude.

Also the entire debate is moot because we no longer live in an HG society nor do we need to, and as such we have no reason to have to stick to the roles that made sense for that relationship to our environment. Our environment has changed and gives us the freedom to redefine our relationship with the world and each other.

>>2800336
>Except men act certain ways essentially, because of biology.

No, they don't.

>>2800327
That't the thing, there is a REASON why all human civilizations perceive them in a fundamentally common regard. I'm not saying every man is biologically expected to be a bodybuilder, but the laborious and dangerous proclivities are allocated to the male of our species.

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>>2800331
>Look at me! I copied stormnigger memes, am I hard yet?

So adorable tranny. Is this the last remnant of your shriveled testosterone producers working for you? Or are you in full seizure mode at witnessing a man who can actually take care of his own business in 2017?

>>2800339
Women are incapable if you want to actually bring food home. Even the best female Olympian can be beat up by random Joe on the street.

And the impulses of HG society still exist and will always exist. We are not abstracted from our environment.

>>2800343
Read the thread dumbass. Is testosterone not real too?

>>2800344
Yes and that's because throughout history it was just simpler to divide labor in specific ways.

That doesn't mean a woman can't use a pitchfork, nor does it mean men can't wash clothes.

>>2800348
mmuuhh naturrr man did it ten thousand years ago so it must be rite!!!!

just disregard all those people who built civilization for you, ONLY PALEO MAN MATTERS

The fact you people still have the gall to talk about your heritage and ancestors disgust me. What of the ancestors that built all you can see around you? Are they worthless to your dumb paleofag romanticism? Or do only the haplomemes matter to you?

>>2800348
>Read the thread dumbass. Is testosterone not real too?

Yeah moron, testosterone is real, and it's not like testosterone is something only men have.

>>2800339
WOW I DIDNT KNOW OUR GENOME AND PHYSIOLOGY TOTALLY CHANGED ON A DIME AT THE END OF HUNTER GATHER SOCIETY WOW SOMEONE CALL DARWIN BIOLOGY AND TECHNOLOGY ARE CAUSALLY RELATED

>>2800360
>implying evolution in man hasn't consistently accelerated with new technology

This isn't even uncommon knowledge. You do realize ALL of the domestic species come from ten thousand years ago or earlier, right?

>>2800353
Nobody thinks that women are incapable of holding a pitchfork you fucking retard, it doesn't mean that gender isn't real

>>2800357
Stop sperging out. Biology and evolution still exist and always will.

>>2800358
Men have more testosterone, and it effects them biologically. Do you deny this?

>>2800364
I bet you're a ketofag too. Worthless romanticism of man when he was a filthy unwashed savage as opposed to when he was civilized.

Go back to the savannah faggot.

>>2800361
What is your point? Gender roles still exist in the same way in other animals too. Technology will never advance to the point where we will become genderless.

>>2800353
Who is saying this is literally impossible? This is a matter of tendencies and preferences being determined by biological sexes, which ~in regard to behaviors relevant to biology~ follows dimorphic patterns. Great talk by Steve Pinkerton on this if you'd like me to recommend.

>>2800364
I never said gender isn't real. I said it socially constructed.

Money is also socially constructed you moron, would you say money isn't real too?

>>2800369
>make a point that technology and evolution aren't correlated
>"Well no, you're wrong, technology and evolution are clearly correlated"
>"What is your point?"

>>2800345
>hurr durr muh marriage and household
>I do ALL THE FUCKING HOUSEWORK I'M A MAN!!
>...
>i-it's not houeswork it's actually my own business! I'm manly!

Yeah cuck I wish you success with your one-specimen whale farm. Just be careful, if you do all the housework like the good obedient eunuch you are it might be your "pretty" couchwife who gets a seizure.

>>2800367
I'm not romanticizing shit, but it does sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.

>>2800371
Gender is biological.

>>2800361
If by "domestic species" you mean non-human domesticated animals, you do realize we don't regularly practice eugenics on humans, right?

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>>2795802
Women belong in the kitchen is a social construct, the women itself is a fact based on biology.

Narcissism is the cause of trying to redefine the reality of biology though. Which if you actually think about, you would feel kind of bad for the people who attempt to do this because they're doing it out of some deep seeded feeling of being insignificant. When they are significant, doesn't matter the sex. They're so deceived by themselves though, that the only way to feel any form of power is to attempt to redefine reality itself. At least, that's what I think anyways.

Their general motives of equality is awesome, it's just you can't mix that with chaos. That's when things start to get a little strange.

>>2800373
They aren't "clearly correlated" you dumbass, muh technology will not change gender roles.

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>>2800375
>All of this desperation to erode family values in someone as soon as they're witnessed

wew trannies really do want the end of western society, I thought it was a meme before now but I see it in your butthurt.

Even the pigeons understand biological sex. Shame trannies are stupider than pigeons.

>>2795802
Who you gon' get with your bathing suit area on/in theirs?

>>2800377
>Gender is biological.

It is partly biological because testosterone makes men more risk-taking, and estrogen makes women more risk-averse, but it is mostly socially constructed.

I mean, you're welcome to prove how estrogen causes people to automatically wear skirts.

>>2800348
>Even the best female Olympian can be beat up by random Joe on the street.

No, they can't. If you think that you know nothing about fighting. This is even disproven by the fact that smaller men can, and have beaten larger men in fights.

If you seriously think that a random dude on the street could outsprint a female Olympian sprinter or outlast a female triathlon runner or distance runner, you are straight up stupid.

>>2800389
Gender is not "wearing skirts". You conflate gender with social fashions, but that does not take away the underlying reality of it.

>>2800391
You really have no clue don't you

>>2800371
Lets go with this analogy. I agree money is a social convention, but it is founded in/correlates to real value and thus has an intrinsic relation. I agree gender is a social convention, but is founded in/correlates to real biology and this has an intrinsic relation. Can you make a good fucking point please? Its not the end of the world if we just admit a good portion of who we are is materially innate.

>>2800394
>Gender is not "wearing skirts"

The fact that we perceive skirts as feminine and that only women should wear them is a social construct sperglord.

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If you went out dressed in tight white stockings, heels and long hair today, you'd probably get called a fag instead of a beacon of masculinity like pic related was.

The expectation that men / women dress a certain way is a gender thing, not a sex thing.

>>2795802
because people can be what ever they want. if people could go up and stop being fucking cucked and get over their thorough brain washing. gender is social construct but we have the traditional ways so thoroughly engrained in our society that we can't see clearly.

>>2800398
>not understanding the difference between associations with gender and gender itself

Are you enjoying your C- in sociology? Yes material associations are social inventions, but the thing they are inventing FOR is an innate structure strongly correlated to biology

>>2800398
And? Who cares? This isn't anything new, fashions are social. Of course they are, that doesn't mean that transgenders are ok or that gender doesn't exist.

Gender is still real, and your example is a red herring.

>>2800386
>doing all the work while your wife watches Jersey Shore
>waste literal hours posting on an anime forum instead of quality time/having sex/playing with kids/doing some work
>MUH FAMILY VALUES

Wew lad. If these are family values, I'm not ashamed to erode them.

>>2800394
Clearly you don't.

Seriously, go get in a UFC ring with a top woman fighter, and get back to me when you "totally shrekt" them.

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>>2800411
>(...) I'm not ashamed to erode them.

Spoken like a true tranny. You get 'im, sister! Smash that western society! Life is all about ~having fun~ anyway, right? LOOOOOL! Sanders 2020~!

>>2800413
You're stupid, with even a minimal amount of training any man can beat all women around them. Women are not cut out for fighting, period.

>>2800403
No, it's a social thing.

>>2800407
That's the point you fucking idiot. There is nothing called "gender itself".

>>2800409
>Okay, I agree with you, but I'm still going to stick with I believe though

kys

>TIDF gets BTFO
>resorts to semantics

>>2800421
Yes there is.

>>2800411
>I'm not ashamed to erode them

meanwhile a couple hours ago...

>>2800138
>I don't attack your way of life famalam

funny how the veil slips so easily, eh tranny?

>>2800427
>Yes there is.

Prove it.

>>2800409

The standard fuckup of these threads is constantly that everyone is operating on a different definition of gender and proceeding to shout past one another.

The people saying gender is malleable ARE NOT THE FUCKING PEOPLE who agree with you that sex and gender are interchangable words. They're the people who are saying the WORD GENDER describes the malleable culture-specific parts often assigned to your sex.

Being transgender and being transexual would be two different things, but since nobody can agree on the definition of gender they're often conflated. A man who knows he's a man but behaves the way you'd expect a woman to behave is transgender, a man who literally tries to change into a woman is transexual.

>>2800426
If your entire point was that social fashions are social, then, yes, you win.

However, something tells me that this was not your intention: you were trying to claim that gender wasn't real and was in no way correlated to biological sex! Ridiculous! Glad we got that cleared up, I almost thought you were retarded for a second.

>>2800396
This is pretty much where I stand; that gender is largely a social convention but it is innately related to biological function, sprouting branches out of the source but never fully departing from it.

I think a lot of the post-structuralists have some good points, however I don't want to live in the society they want to create. I think we are all healthier when we are synced to our biological function. However there is room for outliers but they should remain a minority.

>>2800436
This is the last time I repeat myself.

I never said gender isn't real. I said it was a social construct.

The fact that you think social construct means that something isn't real is your fucking problem.

I feel like the entire "Gender-Sex" difference is entirely made possible by the English language.

Most languages do not have two separate words for this.

Gender/Sex is the same, as is biological.

If some guy feels like a woman in his head then that is fine but he's still a man.

>>2800436

So what do you qualify as a man who assumes all the cultural fashions / expected roles of a woman? Is this 'unnatural' or is it just a social taboo?

>>2800434
So it's semantics? Social roles are biologically real, you might as well say that hunger is a social construct

>>2800452
Gender is still biological. Fashion and gender are not the same thing.

>>2800455
A mentally ill faggot pansy who should be gassed, but a man nontheless. Sex is biological and related to gender. Your hypothetical man is just fucked in the head.

>>2800421
>>>>>BUT
>>>>>THERE
>>>>>IS

God, this is just going to prove that the only thing these fucking uneducated social constructionists think fall into the category of "gender expression" is fashion and pronouns.

1) read more on the subject twat

2) As an example, women are inclined to take person-to-person interaction jobs (ie healthcare, child education) because they have a tendency from birth to develop more in a social direction. Men tend towards isolation, hard labor, and high sciences because during their formative years they are typically oriented towards object-relations. such things affect mental ability in areas of arithmetic, creative proficiency, geometric conceptualization, linguistic proficiency, etc.

Now, is this to say there is some chasm between male and female in these regard? Not particularly(mostly only at extremes), but the patterns are there and they result in dimorphic social tendencies. Its not wrong or sexist or oppressive to fucking say so.

>>2797602
This scenario has never happened. Get out of the internet and experience the real world for once.

>>2800432
see >>2800462

>>2800463
>4 year olds can choose their gender identity
>parents never influence kids to say things they don't mean
I feel like the only sane man on Earth in a world of deranged lunatics.

>>2800462
>Its not wrong or sexist or oppressive to fucking say so.

I never said it was either, but if men and women were socialized from an early age completely oppositely to what they are now, what the fuck do you think would happen?

Do you think we would have butch men and feminine women? I don't think so.

>>2800457

>Social roles are biologically real

Social roles are informed by biology but decided by society, and while you'll detect familiar trends that doesn't magically mean that was the only way it could pan out.

It makes sense biologically, for example, that men be soldiers while women aren't, due to physical differences. It's harder to biologically explain why men should be ashamed to be a stay at home dad or feel 'emasculated' that his wife has a higher income than him, the male being the breadwinner is a social expectation. Biologically a male should have zero problem having his needs provided for him with reduced work himself.

>>2799926
You are not born with a favorite color or with a predisposition for driving on the right side of the road. Is that what you have a problem with? A century ago chances were your favorite color as a male was going to be pink, but now it's the least likely, is it just that boys are not "born" with a predisposition to like pink anymore? Or did the perception of pink as a man color change? Hmm

>>2800437
Hell yeah friend, I'm with you. There is honor in being a minority - normalization would erode the unique culture that sprouts from trans and non-het people. Am I either of them? No. But I can appreciate the contributions of their members who have contributed to society positively. And I can do all that while not throwing out gender lol.

What I hate is that most of these "post-structuralists" actually get Foucault, Deleuze, etc. dead wrong and bastardize the good criticisms of post-modernism into shit like whats in this thread.....

>>2800476
>but if men and women were socialized from an early age completely oppositely to what they are now

yeah you know why this has never really happened ever in history?

hm I wonder why

maybe something

about social orientation

that is

biologically guided

:O

>>2800476
They wouldn't be. Women and men will always be as they are now, due to biology.

>>2800478
Gender is still real biologically. You're describing social norms, which are not the same. If this is all you have to say, I have to say that your ideology is banal and this "insight" is fucking stupid.

>>2800479
>gender doesn't real because favorite colors are arbitrary
Nobody is arguing that blue is a biologically male color you twat

>>2800490
>We associate suits, cologne and cat-calling with men because of biological magic

>>2800504
No, but we associate strength, intelligence, and dominance with men because of biology. We associate motherhood and submissive meekness with women because of biology.

Learn to understand the big picture.

>>2800498
>They wouldn't be. Women and men will always be as they are now, due to biology.

So explain flamboyantly feminine homosexual men, and extremely butch lesbians.

>>2800407
If its so innately linked to biology then how come skirts weren't considered feminine in the slightest until a couple of centuries ago?

>>2800504
Imagine not getting the point THIS hard

Didnt say suits, but there is a concept of masculine and feminine clothing in every human group that has clothing. Didnt say cologne, but masculine and feminine scent is extremely present in nature, including us ie pheromones. Didnt say cat calling, but I'll venture to bet there is something in human biology that makes men tend to seek women.....wow

>>2800478
Because pregnancies seriously slow a career?

It is necessary for the survival of mankind that our women get at least the remplacement rate of children.

With 3 pregnancies, a women lost 3 years of work, have less experience and still have to breastfeed the babies.

It is preferable that the man do it.

>>2800514
Aberrations. They live in societies that accept this degenerate behavior and so are not corrected. People like that tend to become dominated by more traditional peoples: for example, the ongoing Muslim invasion of Europe.

Suicide is against nature too, doesn't mean that we will, as a species, start becoming suicidal on a mass scale because "the will to live is just a social construct bro"

>>2800520
Gender is not about skirts and favorite colors you idiot. It's deeper than that.

>>2800520
Do you understand how to read that sentence? Im legitimately asking. I did not say material associations are innate, I said that gender structures which are correlative to biology are innate. The material associations are irrelevant

>>2800528
>Aberrations. They live in societies that accept this degenerate behavior and so are not corrected.

E.g social constructs. If you have to physically "correct" someone because of their behavior, you've already admitted that there are certain behaviors that can manifest socially without a direct causal link to any biological explanation.

>>2800514
>not understanding what divergence is

So you're just straight up failing your sociology class instead of a C-

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>>2800514
The exception is not the norm.

>>2800471
That's not what you said. Read your comment again.

>>2800545
holy god it does not mean that can you please learn to read critically rather than just looking at letters

>>2800545
Are you retarded? Of course it can manifest socially: that doesn't make it good, and it doesn't take away from the general connection between sex and gender. You might as well try to normalize schizophrenia because "it's natural bro"

>>2800501
The retard I was arguing with was. Maybe he did it unintentionally and was just making an ass out of himself who knows

>>2800545
All packs of wolves work the same way.
All groups of elephants work the same way.
All anthills work the same way.

Is it due to their culture or to biological factors?

Someone make a new thread plz?

>>2800555
It's not my comment.

Also, reminder that pedo rights will be a thing. No liberal will be able to argue with the faggot Jews who will claim "well, if kids can choose what gender they want to be, why can't they consent to sex?" And liberals will support this, because all freedom is good.

>>2800563
No, he didn't. You're grasping at straws.

>>2800559
Well gender is literally just the expression an individual's masculine or feminine traits.

It's not like people have soul inside them called "Man Soul".

>>2800568
Humans aren't wolves, elephants or ants.

>>2800528
So if you don't impose gender on someone they will not end up identifying as a traditional gender? It's almost like gender is not biological..

>>2800579
No, they have genetilia and hormones that make them men.

>>2800581
Here we go with this "humans aren't subject to evolution" bullshit

>>2800584
They will. Not everyone is an aberration, men and women will always be men and women.

>>2800587
>No, they have genetilia and hormones that make them men.

Yes they do. But his socialization is what's going to determine how he behaves and expresses himself, e.g his gender.

I mean, it's almost as if you guys simply deny the existence of masculine and feminine men, or masculine or feminine women.

You are aware that a woman can be butch right?

>>2800544
Those material associations are a direct product of gender structures, they're the manifestation of it.
Males and females are distinct biologically, and those differences shaped our culture and dictated different behaviours for males and females, that after thousands of years ended up becoming our current version of male and female bevahiour. Founded in a biological basis but ultimately dictated by our subsequent culture

>>2800593
Because they can be doesn't make the trends nonexistent. Men will prefer physical activities and science innately, no matter how they are socialized. This is a fact.

>>2800572
I'm not a liberal and I never said children can choose what gender they are. I'm sorry that I don't perfectly fit into an ideological box you can classify me as. Maybe if you stopped making generalizations about people so that they fit into your retarded narrative you would look less stupid.

>>2800604
>no matter how they are socialized

Wrong.

>>2800612
Literally look up any of those studies where they raised a kid as the opposite gender, it does not go well.

Our "arbitrary" societal values exist for a reason.

>>2800525
>It is preferable that the man do it.
>With 3 pregnancies,
For those three years that they're pregnant.

>a women lost 3 years of work, have less experience
Whoop-die-doo, 2 years and three months out of a lifetime of 80-90 years - which right now also is higher than the male life expectancy.

>and still have to breastfeed the babies
Synthetic baby milk is better than real baby milk by now and can also be fed by anyone.

>>2800587
Except male and female behaviour, apart from certain similarities that are more directly linked to our primitive behaviour, has widely varied from culture to culture. "Not everyone is an aberration", but in ancient greece homosexuality was not in direct conflict with masculinity, and if you go through all of the worlds cultures you'll end up seeing that most of the things you accept as innately manly behaviour are not so innate after all and are just a product of the culture you were exposed to.

New Thread >>2800596

>>2800581
No, we are monkeys. Primates to be more precise.

Monkeys have a social life too.
Guess what? Every species of monkey have its constant social norms.

>>2795802
Should be an edit of this where he is wearing SS uniform and it just has "4chan taught me to make the world a better place"

>>2800420
>No, it's a social thing.

yes. gender being the social aspects associated with sex, not a literal synonym of sex like people often treat it.