Why are Poles allowed to worship a military dictator who puts

>>2714169
Because he defeated Communists.

>>2714178
>defeated
Yeah, we never heared from them again.
So if Hitler's campain agains Stalin was a success he'd be a good guy?

Piłsudski was much more nuanced. He was the chief of state from 1918 to 1922 then he retired. But seeing the decay of the young Polish democracy in 1926 he decided to step in before our neighbors do it. He told his wife he's going to be back for dinner because he had no idea what's he going to do. In the end he deposed the president but he didn't replace him. But he was the most powerful person in the country.

The elections were normal he was actually pretty popular. This is why it wasn't a dictatorship more like a rather authoritarian democracy because a lot of his political enemies were thrown in jail, some of them died. He was a mixed bag because on one hand he had a great political vision but he failed in other ways for examply the modernization of the military. But if he was alive there would be no WWII at least not in 1939. His successors were all idiots though. So basically the cult of Piłsudski is very dangerous. He was certainly a great man but also overrated it's a result of that cult built around him in the 30s. There were other even greater people.

>>2714222
>great political vision
Tell that to the Lithuanians.
Also I know it's a terrible cliche but Hitler also won the elections.

>>2714200
No but he would do the world a huge favor because Stalin was more dangerous.

Also the victory in 1920 was important because we don't know how would it end if Poland fell. Piłsudski could've destroyed the Red Russia back then but he refused to back the Whites in case they would want to take back Polish land again.

>>2714237
>he could've done a great thing but he chose not to try
You're not doing him any favours.

>>2714222
What decay? There was nothing wrong with Polish democracy in 1926.

>>2714236
His vision was: don't have both Hitler and Stalin as your enemies.They should've listened to him. Also it's the best if you join the war as late as possible. Simple but saves lives. Hitler respected him at least. With him in charge USSR would've still been treated as prime enemy.


Don't know anything about Lithuanians. He wanted the place of his birth to be inside Polish borders later he had proposed something like a confederacy but I'm no expert in the field. Very soon after 1926 Germany and the Soviets took the priority.

>>2714222
>it wasn't a dictatorship more like a rather authoritarian democracy
>lot of his political enemies were thrown in jail, some of them died
Russia's a democracy too eh?

>>2714279
He was born there so he just took the land from a country that didn't do anything wrong. Then peaceful protests were being shat down.
Great leader, just invades a peaceful country for sentimental values.
Also, Hitler respecting him isn't really a good sign.

>>2714222
>muh decay
Yeah I don't agree with the current party let's overthrow the government and scilence the opposition!

>>2714246
I don't care about him all that much. Even if I did I only care about the truth. Nobody had any idea what a communist state would be like. Tsarist Russia would've allied with France and Great Britain and the British would waste no time to let Russia fuck Poland over in the name of the balance in Europe. Piłsudski spent most of his life fighting the Tsar so it's understandable why he didn't do it.

However there were other political options. After all there was a chance that the White Russia would be a democracy so it's entirely possible that Piłsudski failed big time.

>>2714297
I mean by that point there was no royal family to install was there?

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>>2714291
Hitler respected him because he reminded him of an old officer (which he was) from Prussia or Austria (Piłsudski served in the Austro-Hungarian army and even was an Austrian agent) and had an incredibly strong personality. he naturally commanded respect. All the better for Poland. Piłsudski didn't like him back and even proposed France a police action to take him down but they refused.

>>2714200
>So if Hitler's campain agains Stalin was a success he'd be a good guy?
Hitler's chimpout allowed Commies to Eastern Germany. Poles under Pilsudski held the line and defended Europe. And I won't even touch the point where Hitler made Sralin seem like the lesser evil.

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>>2714303
I think the most influential members were social democrats. He obviously fucked up but had no idea.

>>2714313
Like I said, IF it was a success, somehow, he'd be okay?

>>2714315
>and wasted an opportunity to build an empire
As if that was a good thing.

>>2714317
It's difficult to compare him to any other politician because he definitely wasn't a Polish Franko or Mussolini and especially Hitler. I'm struggling to think of something. Perhaps to use modern example - Erdogan. Although Piłsudski was far more popular. Unfortunately because he made many mistakes and was surrounded by yes men who were utter failures after his death.

>>2714327
Haven't read it. Don't know what it's all about. Knowing the author it's probably just something like: destroy Moscow entirely, kill all reds, then allow other countries to be free and happy.
Of course anything taking place USSR would be an improvement.

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The main author behind the success during the Battle of Warsaw was later poisoned by Piłsudski's men. Allegedly. This is why Poles who know their history will never whitewash him completely. Assuming he had something to do with it which he probably did.

>>2714351
>Allegedly.
I mean you can't just say something as interesting as that and not provide a source.

>>2714178
fpbp

>>2714361
I don't know what you can and can't read. The only thing in English about him is the wiki article.

In Poland there's a documentary about him. Lots of articles. Top historians always at least mention that he died in mysterious circumstances.

>>2714381
At least post the articles, znam język.

>>2714370
>>2714178
>defeated
He lost though.

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>>2714434
>its a vatnik revision thread

>>2714429
http://nowahistoria.interia.pl/ii-rzeczpospolita/news-zlamane-kariery-losy-przeciwnikow-marszalka-pilsudskiego-po-,nId,1399581

http://www.rp.pl/Rzecz-o-historii/307289911-Czy-marszalek-Pilsudski-kazal-zabic-generala-Rozwadowskiego.html#ap-1

>>2714315
>Zychowicz
meme historian for retards

>>2715315
Citation?

>>2714317
Read second part of the post.

Stalin was a cunt, but Hitler held literally genocidal ideology and he held it quite dearly.

>>2714169
Because Poles love to have someone to workship. Also Poland needed national heros after gaining the independance and he was just in place.

>>2714222
I like big P like the next guy, but you don't tell me Brześć elections were free. He was mostly popular, but he was a slightly benevolent dictator, who developed a cult of personality even among the right-wingers, whose ancestors he used to put in Bereza Kartuska.

I'm going to translate some shit in a couple of moments

In the beggining of 1938, Melchior Wańkowicz published a propaganda book, named "Central Industrial Region - the source of strength" about a grand state project aiming to develop the area around Sandomierz. In said book, author quoted Piłsudski, who famously spoke, that "Poland is like a bagel. The frontier is rich, but only shit in the middle". The book was subsequently reviewed in Dziennik Wileński, by Stanisław Cywiński.

Cywiński was known to support nationalists (inb4 Piłsudski was a nationalist - yes he was, but we are talking about certain political camp centered around Dmowski) and the magazine he published was also rightist. In the article, it was said, that "The author proves false the words of certain cabotine, who said that there is nil in the middle of Poland." The article was published without much controversy. Even state censors would not notice anything wrong with it.

However, an anynomous text in Nation and State magazine did. Cywiński was accused of defaming "the one, whose coffin was carried by president to Wawel" etc. This article caught the eye of Gen. Stefan Dąb-Biernacki, who was almost fanatically devout to the Marshal. He summoned some of his subordinates and gave them an order to carry out justice on the defamator.

Cont.

>>2714169
German dictator lost his war, so his atrocities were largely exposed

Spanish dictator won his war. The problem was he had established western press who backed the republican cause both on front (Hemingway, Orwell, Capa) and in USA, Great Britain, where they published tons of articles and books exaggerating fascist crimes and whitewashing republicans. The created the "Evil Franco" myth

Polish dictator went away with his camps because before ww2 no one was interested in Poland, there was no civil war and no genocide. People, whom Pilsudski persecuted - political centre, left and ukrainian terrorists had no support or alliances outside the country. Let us not forget Poland was in the victorious camp of ww2, US and British press wouldn't dare to say something bad about pre-ww2 Polish goverment attacked by Hitler, their enemy

>>2715936
On the afternoon of February 14th 1938 five armed officers entered Cywiński's apartament and after exlaiming "You have offended the Marshal!" proceeded to assault him, all well in sight of his wife and 14yo daughter. Cywiński was beaten to unconciousness, what resulted in him having lost a left eye and broken ribs. After he was treated to his wounds, Cywiński decided to go to Dziennik Wileński's editorial office.

In meantime, other officers were waiting outside doors of two editors-in-chief. After couple of hours, they also went to editorial office, where they ecountered two fellows, as well as Cywiński. All three were beaten (Cywiński obviously for the second time), but same fate also met a female assistant, a janitor of a building and some student who entered the office in some completly unrelated issue. Some moments later, all of them were arrested by police and sent to a prison hospital.

Cywiński was sentenced to 1,5 years in prison for defaming the Polish Nation, the other editors aquitted. Biernacki and his men were never accused of anything and the attorneys defending Cywiński were set to be tried for "Defaming Józef Piłsudki", on the basis of a law established only after the entire incident.

>>2714169
what is wrong with putting commies into a camps?

>>2715985
Franco did do awful stuff. you dont need to worship the republicans to recognize that

ITT drunk fascist sympathizing pollacks

>but not the Spanish

What are you talking about. Franco is not vilified like Hitler is in Spain. You can openly claim that you supported him without a lynch mob. But most younger Spaniards don't give a shit because they aren't old enough to remember him. The only people in Spain who still give a shit about Franco are old Francoists who are old and about to die and butthurt Catalan communists who are old and about to die.

>>2717084
I've literally just read about the Soviet propaganda techniques including calling every regime "fascist" even if they weren't like Poland or Great Britain (while being their ally).

>>2715315
Found the romantic. Every historian has some controversial theses but Zychowicz is honest and made friends and enemies on both sides. I also miss Wieczorkiewicz but his student is the next best thing.

>>2717084
>former anarchist and member of socialist party supporting facism
That's not Mussolini, anon.

Because killing bolsheviks is a good thing.

Because Poles simply don't give a fuck what people find ''offensive'' and if Hitler was polish they would shill him as well.

Because you touch yourself at night.

>>2715985
>Poland was in the victorious camp of ww2

yeah we won so much we are a shithole while the german ''losers'' are the most powerful country in Europe

>>2719253
Political commentators of that time put it simply: Poland was in the losing camp despite siding with victorious countries. In fact Poland was most likely the biggest loser of WWII. Appart from them only Czechoslovakia sided with the Allies and was sold to the Soviets though the country ceased to exist before WWII. But they were also betrayed.

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>>2714169
Because Poland is still uncucked by Western postmodernist guilt.

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>>2717084
ITT degenerates and commies cry foul, when they get btfo

>>2719253
This is why I wrote that Poland was in the victorious camp, not that it won the war.

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>>2714169

>>2719483
Your shithole country deserves another partitioning Casimir


t. Irish commie

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>>2719459
I always laugh when anyone poins outt that Poland is so ethnicly clean. Without Stalin and mass deportations of Ukrainians and Germans Poland would still have like 15% national minority population living here(before war: 30%).

>>2719729
You say it like having other Europeans in your country is a bad thing.

>>2719723
then who will fight off the Muslims?

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>>2719459
>that broken english
based polska

>>2714169
he contributed to polish independence greatly and decided not to cuck polish army by selling them as meat fodder for germans/russians/austrians after they made their petty promises

he wasn't perfect but he was the only person that could satisfy both right wing and socialists/commies to some extend and prevent civil war

>>2714270
>nothing wrong with democracy
>first president didn't even survive a week in office before being assassinated by far-right fanatic

>>2714236
>Tell that to the Lithuanians.
Yeah, they chosen Vilnius as their capital when it wasn't even in 10% lithuanian, why not go for San Francisco instead or Madrid?
Don't get me wrong, annexing it like that was wrong but it didn't help that Lithuanians were being stubborn and refused to cooperate. They even preferred to base their alphabet on Czech language instead of Polish because they've seen themselves as victims of poles even before they annexed Wilno.

>>2720003
not him but why are Lithuanians so asshurt over Poles. Is it like the Poland-Russia animosity?

>>2719729
Don´t forget that the premise "Poland is paset because no immigrants" is retarded, since Pollacks are The Immigrants.

>>2720027
but Polacks arnt decapitating people then mascarading as refugees. All theyre doing is stealing jobs from lazy Britbongs and Eireniggers

>>2720014
Because Poland dominated Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth both politically and culturally. They claim they were being subjects of polonisation for hundreds of years while in reality nobles and magnates assimilated themselves into polish civilization voluntarily. It didn't help that Lithuania went fairly quickly from a tribe/country to being more commonly known simply as a geographical region

>>2720035
>All theyre doing is stealing jobs from lazy Britbongs and Eireniggers

If only jobs...

>>2720040
Meanwhile Belarusians (geographically and demographically majority of the former Duchy of Lithuania as it was then called) are fine with this legacy. It's that a lot of the countries have some idendity issues.

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>>2719861
Having too many minorities in your country can be "problematic":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

>>2720014
Because Poles are dindu nuffins of this region, they pretty much attacked every neighbor during interwar period.

They won't mention the fact that they tried to overthrow our government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Polish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt_in_Lithuania

They won't mention the fact after signing non aggression pact they attacked the next day.

Or the meme that they only wanted Vilnius, but after they got it they continued to attack whole Lithuania and threatened their independence.

>On November 17, the mutineers began a major attack. They planned to capture Kaunas, thus threatening Lithuanian independence,[119] by encircling the city from north through Širvintos–Ukmergė–Jonava and Giedraičiai–Kavarskas–Kėdainiai.[115] Żeligowski's forces were about three times larger: 15 Polish battalions against 5 Lithuanian battalions.[120] One cavalry brigade managed to break through the Lithuanian defense lines near Dubingiai, reached Kavarskas, and continued towards Kėdainiai.[115] However, Lithuanians were successful in stopping an attack towards Ukmergė near Širvintos on November 19. About 200 Lithuanians maneuvered through swamps to the rear of three Polish battalions.[121] Attacked from the front and rear, some 200 Poles were taken prisoner while others retreated.[122] The Lithuanians continued to attack and captured Giedraičiai on November 21. On the same day, a ceasefire was signed under pressure from the League of Nations.

And in 1938 issued ultimatum to Lithuania seeing how Nazis got international support after annexation of Austria.

In 1939 Lithuania was offered the land back if they attacked Poland together with Nazis but refused. I can guarantee Poles would jump in at the first possible occasion then play the victim.

>The Nazis went so far as to suggest a German–Lithuanian military alliance against Poland and promised to return the Vilnius Region, but Lithuania held to its policy of strict neutrality.

>>2720061
This. I also steal cars.

>>2722485
Shituanian still mad kek don't you have a suicide to commit or something?

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>>2722501
There he goes, when out of arguments resorts to insults.

>>2714169
Not only Poles.

Pretty much all former Warsaw pact countries warship their interwar leaders, even if they were utter shit

>>2722485
You think any historically literate Pole approves of the chaotic and irrational political decisions of the government in the late 30s struggling to maneuver between Germany and USSR. Critical interpretation of history and writing about political realismi is by far the most popular school of thought in our current historiography. And it comes from conservatists. Just like the opinion that we shouldn't have rejected Hitler at least to some extent. Too many nuances to understand for someone who can't see anything except for his own aching butt.

But on the other hand no one (unless he has his own agenda) the fuckery that took place after WWI with like a dozen different countries announcing their independence, making plebiscites, uprisings etc. This what happens after a century or so of stagnation when there was like three countries in the region but I've never seen anyone actually butthurt about it though I once encountered a Russian who was surprised that I admited that it was a mess for everyone involved, It's weird but I actually found many rational Russians and had many good discussions with them. They seem to understand the complexity.

>>2716773
Basic human rights aside, he didn't just put communists in, politcal enemies of all kinds. I'm preety sure you'd fit in too.

>>2717137
Do they name schools afer him? Do national leaders put flowers on his grave every year? I don't think so.

>>2722583
But Piłsudski wasn't someone like Franco. He was more like an authoritarian ruler of some new democratic country. The elections were normal and he had the support but at the same time there was a lot of fuckery and some people were thrown in jail clearly for political reasons.

>>2722485
Pole here, I wouldn't be surprised if this was banned too.

>>2722598
>the elections were normal
>some poeple were thrown in jail clearly for political reasons
Pick one.

>>2722601
As opposed to countries where there's no election or there's just one party. His organization (not really a political party) had the support. There was a normal parliament and members of the opposition were highly critical of him. Relatively normal situation only now there was that one guy that was super influential and if he thought you were dangerous to the nation you were in trouble.

It's a complex situation but there's a great movie about it. Made in the 80s but pretty honest, factual and shows exactly what it was. There was once a version with subtitles on youtube but it seems to be gone now unfortunately.

>>2722575
>You think any historically literate Pole approves of the chaotic and irrational political decisions of the government in the late 30s struggling to maneuver between Germany and USSR.

Hardly an excuse, Soviets or Germans didn't force you into attacking Czechoslovakia or Lithuania or Ukraine, they did so because they thought they could get away with it. And especially Poles on internet will never admit their wrongdoing. And you're playing down your wrongdoings by simply saying it was usual for the time. The only countries that were imperialistic out of those newly created republics was Poland only land grabbers in this region were Soviets/Germans/Poles. I've said it many times and will say it again, Poles were just as imperialistic as Russians, but didn't have either the manpower or capabilities to wreck everyone.

Did Latvians/Estonians/Lithuanians/Ukrainians/Czechoslovakians went land grabbing and bullying their neighbors? Other than Balkan shitholes with their perpetual wars, only Poles were destabilizers here other than Germans/Soviets.

And for the ending, don't take this personally I don't hold grudge against modern day Poles. Since none of them had anything to do with this, I just don't like seeing them excusing the fuckery that was in interwar era.

>>2722485
>Poles are dindu nuffins of this region
It went worse lately. All the projects about 'national history policy' can be summed us:
>Poles did nothing wrong
>Evenif they did, it's German propaganda
>Shift blame to Russians

>>2722631
Ok so we have to go back to basics. I should've expected this.

So until 1918 there was no independent Poland. First thing that any new country in the region had to do was to establish the borders.Militarily and politically (in Paris). The conception of pre-partition borders was quickly abandoned as it was unrealistic but we still had to fight for basically every region.

The fact that three large monarchies fell one after another only added to the confusion. Therefore many countries that had no prior experience of nationhood had to somehow justify their existence. There were at least three Ukrainian states, at least two soviet puppet states and some weird inventions like the Lemko country. Because of decades and centuries of relative political stability with only like three countries in the region the ethnic borders weren't as concrete as they are today. So there was a lot of competition especially between Poles, Germans and Czech. There was a lot of tension and we even had to fight an armed uprising to the region called Greater Poland - the crucible of our nation. Other regions had the plebiscite. Poles and Germans were driving people in buses to the voting booth.There was a lot of border wars in what was basically free for all. No one is free to blame (if we can call it that - I think it was the unfortunate byproduct of political stagnation).

>Did Latvians/Estonians/Lithuanians/Ukrainians/Czechoslovakians went land grabbing and bully..

Yep no precious snowflakes. Ever heard of Colonel Josef Snajderek? While Poland was fighting Soviet Russia he conquered some speck of land that had both Polish and Czech population. Slaughtered the civilian population and murdered a bunch of POWs. You'd think they would also be interested in our victory in this special case at least. But truth to be told it originated as an unauthorized action. We decided to let the Czech have their win because firsts things firsts Bolsheviks had to be defeated first.

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>>2722691
>the crucible of our nation

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>>2722691
And that's just for starters but the point is comparing a new country that had no support in Europe and was struggling to justify its right to existence to an actual dictatorship with ideology and plans of conquest is completely wrong. Flattering maybe because it implies real power or potential but not. I actually wish. Our reputation would be the same but at least maybe we would be in better shape as a country today. But we couldn't. We were too second rate. We wanted to industrialize our country. But our leaders had no idea what they were doing and had many concepts at once. Another reasons why we can't be "fascist capitalist imperialist pigs." This is why it's hard to find a Pole actually supporting the messy diplomatic policies of the late II Republic period. At the very least some believe that there was no other way considering our location.

>>2722704
So we're back to basics...again.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Piast-dynasty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Poland

>>2722691
None of these wars happened prior 1918 so your point is redundant and again your whole arguments boil down to competition/uprisings yada yada. You weren't special in this regard all these countries fought wars if not two at once, faced coups. You think all these countries sat down on the porch and drank tea while only Poles faced difficulties?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_War_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_War_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_Wars_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian%E2%80%93Soviet_War


Ukrainians weren't on good terms with Soviets either. Though in Czech case both sides some sort of legitimacy over some Silesian lands, and there was no right or wrong side. Though what you tried to do or did in Ukraine/Lithuania is not even comparable to what Czechs did, they only went after a small land plot, while Poles tried to overthrow democratically elected government, take their land and threatened their independence in Ukrainian case completely obliterated their West Ukrainian state.

>>2722732
All of them happened after 1918. Most of them in 1919 in fact.


Not sure what the rest is refering too so I'll just write about my opinions on other countries during that period. I wish I knew more about the baltic countries though. Latvians were an ally during the war with Bolsheviks (Battle of Dyneburg). And Estonians fought against them too and also won. There are a lot of anti-communist heroes there who are very similar to our own. Looks like we shared the same values because I see lots of similarities. As for Ukraine, Petlura was also an ally but the fact that he was a close ally of Piłsudski is controversial because obviously Ukrainians would prefer someone more independent and Piłsudski obviously had the whole idea of intermarinum. Way too unrealistic in my opinion.

>>2722719
Found this. Polacks LITERALLY claim to be the chosen people. kek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_Europe

>>2722785
I really hope that kids this days are taught in school concepts like messianism like Manifest Destiny (but City upon a Hill would be more fitting). So in Polish version for example it was Adam Mickiewicz and his conception that Poland exists so it can suffer. I guess the Tsar was Satan in this conception? Romanticism. Whatever.
Read about positivism and Organic Work instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_work

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>>2714169
His only real opponent was a fascist
Did all leftists and the centre get killed or what?

>>2723090
He was a nationalistic democrat. Also anti-authoritarian. Antifa would most likely call him a fascist though I agree.

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>>2723090
Leftiests were supproting him cause they knew that they will lose any kind of power if the right take over. Also he was kind of centrist, so many people from centre were supporting him.

>>2714440
Nigga your country wasn't on the map 20 years later.

>>2714236
>Hitler also won the elections.
He didn't, he only had a minority of the votes when Hindenburg made him Chancellor.

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>>2714236
>Lithuanians

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>>2714169

Germany is a base of operations for the US. Has to be kept sane.

Poland is americas rabid dog. Has to be kept unhinged and set loose on russia one day.

>>2723749
still won the war 20 years before that, ya bish