Tell me about the Soviet-Afghan War. Was it comparable to

yes, but even worse since in a way it helped speed up the collapse of the USSR.

>>2663575
Not really, no. It was at about a tenth of the scale, and puts to lie any notion that America is particularly casualty averse.

>>2663575

in some ways yes.

but in other ways, like soviet units using hinds to raid farms for chickens, it's just slavs beings of slav.

>>2663575
It was much more of a clusterfuck than Vietnam despite the scale being smaller. And really put to bed any notions of American military inferiority. While some units performed admirably, especially Spetsnatz ones, the Soviet military overall performed terrible.

Also notable: literally half of Afghanistan's population either died or became refugees. It was bloody as fuck. And the Soviets hold a lot of the blame for it.

Official policy on Soviet counter-insurgency can be summed up by examining the following scenarios:

1. Is the village Pro-Soviet?
2. Is the village neutral?
3. Is the village Pro-Mujahideen?

If 2 or 3, genocide. If 1, carry on and resume patrol.

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>>2663801
>>2663810
Why can't America and the west be this based?

>>2663836
We're too nice.

>>2663836
You'll note that it didn't actually accomplish Soviet objectives.

What were Soviet rations like in the 80s? That is the only aspect of modern warfare that I pay attention to any more. Gastronomical warfare.

>>2663836

You'd complain about the refugees too much

>>2663836
You'll note that the Soviets lost.

The Russians are absolute garbage at counter-insurgency. See also Chechnya, where they employed a similar approach.

>>2663634
>and puts to lie any notion that America is particularly casualty averse.

wasted lives personified:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khe_Sanh

>>2663898

Chechnya was a success, cuck.

>>2663971
They lost the first war, then wasted thousands of lives trying to defeat a tiny insurgency in an area smaller than Rhode Island in the second, then finally "won" by literally paying the Chechens not to attack them and giving them de facto independence.

>>2663971
It was literally a defeat though.

>>2663810
>actually believing in this

>>2663836
On the off chance you're not trolling... because it's sociopathic and evil.

>>2664101
And useless. Uselessness is probably the prime consideration here.

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>>2663836
>People actually think being a murdering asshole wins wars
>People think genocide wins wars
It worked so well in the past

>>2664765
>Wars
>murdering asshole
What do you think Wars are?

>>2663801
Interesting essay by an Australian academic says one of the reasons that the Soviets performed poorly was their inability to adapt from their Deep Battle strategies (to be used against NATO), to fighting in a mountainous terrain against a guerilla force.

>>2663810
Seems better than American counter-insurgency policy

1. Is there people in the village?
2. Is there infrastructure?

If 1, mass gang rape, mutilate, pedophilia rape, mass killing, napalm, bombs, kill, etc.

If 2, napalm, bombs, destroy.

There are no pro or neutral or anti in Vietnam war. Everyone not wearing a uniform was an enemy.

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Read pic related if you want to know more.

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>>2664777
A series of military operations to render the enemy in a defenseless state.

>>2664895
Source?

>>2663836
>be in pro-Soviet village.
>get word that your family members and friends has been whiped for living in a pro-jihadi village.
>get friends and other mourners to rally against the soviets by planting bombs and buying firearms.
>join the Mujahideen.
>convice friends in the army or militia to join the Mujahideen.

So based.

>>2665853
Actually young modern radicals tend to come from economic middles.

Mujahideen flock to Syria from Europe to fight in Jihad because it's socially popular, not to avenge some personal tragedy.

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Did they have a theme song, a Soviet "it ain't me"?

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>>2666623
Modern Talking - Who Will Save the World

>>2666623
Ty tolka mame chto ya v'afgane ne govori

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP4kdlE2H9I

>>2663971

>calling people cucks while refusing to acknowledge truth to preserve your fragile perception of a state

I'm pretty sure that's actually the definition of the word

>>2665861

When did we start discussing Syria? Syria has been widely depopulated and has been importing fighters for years, Afghanistan was not the same or really comparable considering the Syrian conflict has been marked by internet recruiting and global media manipulation.

>>2664908
>it was just one sergeant who ordered My Lai

>>2663847
Aye, but then again neither did American policies did they?
If you're going to go down in history as baby killers you may as well actually be baby killers.

>>2667116
The Vietnamese insurgency was effectively destroyed after Tet. After that, the Americans were primarily fighting the North Vietnamese military, not an insurgency. The war ended with T-55s rolling into Saigon.

>>2667064
This is why I love 4chan.
How else would I ever hear this song, this highly niche cultural touchstone for another culture, if it were not for 4chan?

>>2665861
I tried to explain how the strategy put forth by the anon >>2663810 to >>2663836 and why it didn't work.

Still talking about Afghanistan here.

No matter what, Afghanistan is a notoriously difficult place to conquer. It's literally a patchwork of tribes that pay lip-service to any centralized leadership from time to time. It CAN be annexed and pacified so long as you don't make the mistakes of pissing off the populace and forcing them into guerrilla conflict.

>>2663575
as if our country wasn't fucked up already, we might've had a chance to get back and become stable.
this war absolutely tore us apart. thousands of casualties, unrest, psychological traumas.
Our country is refereed to us the "Land of Mines." Where did these mines come from? The Mujahadeen had to put a shitton of them everywhere to blow up Soviet tanks. Now our children play on these tanks, whilst having to be cautious not to step on mines.
The worst part is how many weapons we recieved from the U.S. That's where we got many of our weapons from; right from the U.S to do their dirty work for them. Even after the war, weapons would go through, and we still had a bunch leftover. So, the Taliban movement happened, the money we had to pay for their weapons happened, the execution of Najibullah by Islamist happened.
I really wish we could reverse this.

>>2667253
I love how everybody shits on the US for its post-WW2 conflicts, but nobody raises a shitstorm when the Soviets committed horrific atrocities in Afghanistan. It sucks that your country got fucked over big time by Ivan.

>>2667304
That's what happens when academia is run by communists.

>>2667359
I know and I say this as someone who votes liberal on most issues. I fucking loathe Marxist bastards on college campuses.

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>>2663575
Ahmad Shah Massoud's brother recalled this great story from the war:
>It was the spring of 2001. I was in Afghanistan's Panjshir Valley, together with my brother Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the Afghan resistance against the Taliban, and Bism.illah Khan, who currently serves as Afghanistan's interior minister. One of our commanders, Commandant Momin, wanted us to see 30 Taliban fighters who had been taken hostage after a gun battle. My brother agreed to meet them. I remember that his first question concerned the centuries-old Buddha statues that were dynamited by the Taliban in March of that year, shortly before our encounter. Two Taliban combatants from Kandahar confidently responded that worshiping anything outside of Islam was unacceptable and that therefore these statues had to be destroyed. My brother looked at them and said, this time in Pashto, 'There are still many sun- worshippers in this country. Will you also try to get rid of the sun and drop darkness over the Earth?'

>>2667379
after the war*

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>>2663801
>tfw all those dead qts

God damn Soviets

>>2667359
I don't like those professors.

>>2667304
>nobody raises a shitstorm when the Soviets committed horrific atrocities in Afghanistan
Because no one cares? US is part of Western world and it is obvious that Western academia will address its country's issues first.

>>2667359
>>>/pol/

>>2663810
>Implying Soviets didn't learn from Vietnam experience
There was an attempt to make its own "hearts and minds" policy, there was some cooperation between neutrals and Soviets, but the results were as poor as US attempts in Vietnam. In soldiers diaries and memoirs there is a lot about communication with local population, but no one bothers to read them in case they're translated, not to mention those that are in Russian. The language barrier stops us to spread the info and what West knows about our war in Afghanistan are mostly memes and American pro-Mujahid propaganda. Yes, there were crimes committed to the Afghan people by our soldiers and vice versa. But you can call it Russian Vietnam only in terms of general opinion or mood if you will. If you compare the losses you can see USSR performed pretty well in comparison to US in Vietnam.

>>2664777
The use of force to achieve a goal. Actual wars are fought to gain something, not to wank over K:D ratio like cowadoody.

>>2667414
>compare the losses
>1 million dead North Viet combatants vs 50,000 dead Americans
>70,000-90,000 Mujaheddin dead vs 15,000-50,000 Soviets dead
The Mujaheddin smacked the Soviet Union so hard, they collapsed a year later kek

>>2667359
It's a not a question of academia being run by commies (wtf nigga). Russia has his archives completely shuts for anyone that isn't considered a direct friend of the country. Even my teacher, who's a native from Russia, isn't allowed to consult them because she spent too much time outside of the country. The only guy in my city that is actually allowed there is a lunatic that is pro-Russian on absolutely anything and arguing that Russia dindu nuffin wrong.
So what about the students that wants to study Russia's history? Well you cunt better take it from another approach. For example, when I thought about doing my master on Japan's military intervention in Siberia, my teacher (the same mentioned above) recommended me to read from France's historiography considering their vast studies on Russia. Likewise, another teacher of mine that specialized on the Vietnam's war also had to read on Vietnamese and Chinese accounts if he ever wanted to learn in details about the ivan's intervention in Vietnam.

Inversely, why doesn't anybody from the west is documenting the ruskies's atrocities during the Afghan's war? Well I'm not an expert and I never took the time to research if such articles or books has been already written about it. But I'll assume that because the Russian's are barring their archives to anyone it implies that historians has to go look towards the arab's academics. Which means they had to learn arabs or any other local language. Which is fucking hard and not as accessible as any Europeans or Asian language.

arguing about who is in the wrong for wrecking our county is really behind us; while we may feel hatred towards them, we can't do anything. can a government official call out the U.S? Nope, we'll get fucked by them. Call out Britian? Russia?
It's such a fucking complicated scene nothing makes sense anymore. Really, in the Soviet-Afghan war, there was no good or bad, both the Soviets and Americans fought us, physically, economically, and politically. I wish we can get along now and put that in the past. In afghan tradition, holding a grudge anymore than 3 days is very bad. Good night Russian, American, British brothers. May we come to our senses.
Showe Kosh

>>2667553
When I see these posts, it's hard to know whether the person is intentionally being retarded

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>>2667304
t. Anti Soviet warrior of peace

>>2667095
>Afghanistan was not the same or really comparable

It pretty much acted as one of the early focal points in modern history where foreign 'mujahideen' from the west and middle east could practice Jihad. Bosnia, Chechnya, and Burma too.

>America has never done something like that

>>2663575
The Vietnam comparison is overblown but it was overall a fruitless expenditure that the USSR could not afford.

>>2663575
the scale of the Afghan War is widely overrated, infact it was not even a real war rather a police action.
In the "police action" in Algeria (Algerian War for Independence) the french deployed 4 times the Soldiers the Soviets used in Afghanistan at their peak. (500.000 Frogs, 115.000 Slavshits).

>>2665749
Good book that.

>>2666705
Afgan: the Soviet Experience
It used to be free on youtube, and it's only 40 minutes long
The first footage by a US reporter of the Spetznatz since the beginning of the Cold War
>all of Jeff Harmon's Wikipedia sources are dead for some reason so I can't verify everything

>>2667855
It's actually worse than Arabic. They'd have to learn Farsi and look in Iranian archives (not an option, that shit is very secret), or learn Urdu and look in Pakistani archives, which again is not an option because Pakistan is secretive over their involvement in Afghanistan. There are just no good sources available to westerners on Afghanistan during that period.

>>2664765
>Smug-Stalin.jpg

>>2667064
What the translation of the title? Really cool song, I want to find more music about the Soviet-Afghan war

>>2667414
>If you compare the losses you can see USSR performed pretty well in comparison to US in Vietnam.

You fuckers lost 15,000 men and hundreds of tanks to goat farmers with nothing more than small arms, while killing about 70,000 in turn alongside your native allies. Americans lost 58,000 men fighting an actual modern army in addition to an insurgency. They killed from 500,000 to 1,100,000 enemy troops in turn. Even using the absolute lowest estimates (the North Vietnamese themselves use the 1.1 million estimate), they clearly did much better. Didn't kill or make refugees of 50% of the population either. And the North Vietnamese got far, far, FAR more aid than the Afghans did.

Also the Americans had to project power halfway across the world, while you were fighting on your border. Soviet performance in Afghanistan was for the most part dreadful, and a good hint of what would happen in Chechnya. The Russian military of the 80s and 90s had utterly decayed.