Are there really religions that predate Judaism? Can you provide

>>2579737
Sun worship, or some of the really old Sumerian religions.

>>2579737
Zoroastrianism.

Probably some shaman tier shit

>>2579737
Hinduism in a way.

Genesis copy pasted from the epic of Gilgamesh and the psalms from Akhenaten's hymn to the sun. There's your proof.

Christianity. Predates Judaism which formed in 70AD.

>>2579737
Yazidis

That depends on your definition of Judaism.

Do you mean ethnic Jews, the descendants of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel?

Do you mean when the Mosaic Law was given?

Do you mean Talmudic Kabbalistic Judaism which was a product of the Babylonian exile?

Judaism as we think of it today, is mostly the latter. The Pharisees, the Christ killers, the Zohar/Kabbalists, the Sabbatean Frankists and the parasites that /pol/ raves on about.

>>2579752
False.

Zoroastrianism is based on a scroll of Isaiah. God literally used Cyrus to form an empire and free the Jews.

Zoroastrianism is a ripoff of the real deal (Bible).

>>2579737
You can honestly think there was no religions until Abraham invented a super magic sky man. What do you think kept people in line before that? You think humans were material rationalists until the (((Jew))) showed up?

>>2579863
>False.
>Zoroastrianism is based on a scroll of Isaiah. God literally used Cyrus to form an empire and free the Jews.
>Zoroastrianism is a ripoff of the real deal (Bible).
Can you Jewish nationalist shills stay in your containment country? Jews to from the Persians. That's why they call a Persian king their messiah. The Persians did not take from the Jews.

>>2579915
*took from the Persians.

>>2579915
>Moses and law on Mt. Sinai given in 1500 BC
>Zoroastrianism born in 400 BC

Judaism is older, deal with it.

Cyrus was chosen by God to form an empire and free the Jews. Read the 2nd book of Chronicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCr3YEGGgr8

Zoroastrianism is the most "monotheistic" religion of paganism, that is due to their entire belief being based on a scroll of Isaiah. It's literally Judaism-lite.

>>2579932
Zoroastrianism may have been born much older. It's all in the air.

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>>2579737

The oldest valid example of Judaism is the Greek Septuagint, which is no older than 250 B.C.

Any claims of Judaism being older then that, are nothing but myths being promoted to justify the existence of Israel.

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>>2579947
(You)

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>>2579932
>Moses and law on Mt. Sinai given in 1500 BC

Sorry, but there is no archeological evidence of an independent Israel prior to 1948 A.D.

The entire history of the region has been as a subject province of one of the surrounding and historically proven kingdoms and empires.

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>>2579956
(You)

I remember when trolling meant something.

>>2579963
Not an argument.

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>>2579956
why are you deliberately lying?

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>>2579969
>>2579967
Because he's a God-hating fedora.

Zoroastrianism
Atenism maybe?
Judaism based there stuff off those

>>2579947
this is nearly as ludicrous as the claims that the Torah was written by Moses in the 1400s BC. Actually the oldest fragment of material in the Torah dates to the 6th century BC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketef_Hinnom

It's far more likely that the majority of the Torah was written in the 7th/6th century BC, although it certainly has undergone changes since then.

>>2579977
Just because those tablets were made in 7th century BC doesn't mean Judaism was started then, dumb ass.

>>2579994
meant for
>>2579980

>>2579956
umm no. we have Assyrian inscriptions about the Omride dynasty of Israel, the kingdom's conquest, the siege of Lachish, along with the Meshe stele. if Kings is fully mythical or primarily oral tradition 400-500 years later, how come the line of kings and several of the events in it are independently attested in other sources? the Bible certainly has it's own problems as a source but you are vastly exaggerating them.

>>2579826
WE

>>2580004
not him but christianity is older than rabbinical judaism by about 400 years

>>2579994
>>2579996
that's not what I claimed though. I was responding to what you claimed was the correct dating of the OT. I don't deny that the religion between then and the Hellenistic period, and especially since the development of Rabbinic Judaism has vastly changed

>>2579737
Anything into the Bronze age is speculation, so you could find arguments for anything.

You also have inevitable animism across the globe that you can speculate is older.

>>2580008
Well yeah, Judaism has probably changed and been reformed.
Also, you can tell by his post that he's not talking about rabbinical Judaism. He's acting like Judaism broke off from Christianity instead of the other way around.

Christianity is as old as creation itself.

The Messiah existed before God created the world.
His plan of redemption was already in mind.

The OT points forwards to Christ.
The NT points back to Christ.

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>>2579963
>>2579967
>>2580003

It is objectively impossible for an independent Israel to have existed prior to 1948, as it was impossible to maintain a population base in the area large enough to resist the surrounding and historically verified kingdoms and empires.

Even TODAY, Israel cannot maintain its existence without billions of dollars in American aid every year to prop them up and our military fighting their enemies to guarantee it’s independence.

How would this supposed ancient independent Israel stopped the Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc. from simply taking over, as the archeological record in fact proves they did again and again?

The myth that Israel is X thousands of years old is just that; a myth, created to justify the creation of and continued existence of modern day Israel.

The religion of Judaism is no older the 250 B.C. and prior to that, the Hebrews were just another of a dozen barefoot ass-backward goat herding nomads from the surround desert.

Pretty sure the Sumerian ethnic religion is the oldest religion we know of.

That said, shit like Göbekli Tepe implies some kind of ritual animism.

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@ 2580037

Not even worth a (You)

>>2580028
>The OT points forwards to Christ.

Deuteronomy 4:2
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

does anyone here actually read history books

>>2580052
Your point?

The worship of Nimrod and his paganism was the earliest, a few centuries after the Flood.

>>2580037
>It is objectively impossible for an independent Israel to have existed prior to 1948, as it was impossible to maintain a population base in the area large enough to resist the surrounding and historically verified kingdoms and empires.
...have you not heard of the Bronze age collapse? the major powers declined, leaving several centuries for independent states to develop in Palestine, which are verified independently by the primary sources I mentioned which you ignored while replying to my post as though it refuted it. all you have is your personal incredulity. Now please explain to me how you know all these Assyrian inscriptions are forgeries, along with the Meshe stele, and the tel Dan stele

>>2580066

>earliest religion
>came after the myths of another religion

yeah nah

>>2580077
Retard.

>>2580062
it directly contradicts the idea that Jesus could "fulfill" the law and nullify nearly every single thing stated in it

>>2580082

not an argument

>>2580077
The Flood is a historic event documented by literally every single ancient civilization.

2/10 for making me reply to your bait.

>>2580088
>The Flood is a historic event documented by literally every single ancient civilization.

lol

4/10

Even if that were true, you're implying that nobody had religion before the flood

>>2580084
He didn't nullify the law.
He fulfilled them all.

The point of the law was to show how sinful we are. Nobody is able to keep the law. We are all guilty. The law condemns us.

But good news! God loves you, and He has a gift.
It is up to you to accept or reject that gift.

>>2580091
We don't know much about the Antediluvian civilization (4000~2500 BC).

For all intents and purposes, Nimrod started paganism in Babel and Abraham was the first monotheist.

>>2580098

uh huh

What about Methuselah? Noah? Were they not religious?

If only there was a way to solve all this bickering and fighting? Who does it serve? What is there to gain. If only we could have a Final Solution to this question about Judaism.

>>2580098
>We don't know much about (4000~2500 BC).

My goodness. I didn't know there were people, even religious ones this brain cucked.

The Vedic Religion.

And it's pretty obvious how the Torah borrowed elements from earlier Mesopotamian traditioms.

>>2580139
Right back at you, retard.

>>2580146
>this kills the creationist

>>2580153
>nonsensical ramblings of a retard kills a creationist

I don't think so.

If you want to prove us wrong, you'll have to do it with science.

>>2580149
Haha you are the one that thinks there were no humans and no earth until 6000 years ago and then bippity boppity boo god cast a magic spell and just made the whole universe spear to operate on scientific principles and scales that make it appear billions of years old.

Babylonian paganism.

Which spread to Egypt, Assyria and Greece after the scattering at Babel.

>>2580156
You want science to prove a negative? Go back to high school and try again..

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>>2580165
Haha you are the one that thinks your grandpa was a fish that slowly turned into a shit-eating chimpanzee through Mutant Ninja Turtle magic

>>2580174
How are you so retarded?

I think I lost some brain cells from reading your dumb post.

>>2580119
>>2580098

answer me

the egyptian religion dates from the early bronze age

>>2580165
The universe does not appear to be billions of years old.

I don't know where you got that from.

Things can appear old or young depending on presuppositions you hold.

>>2580180
Nope, I'm not an atheist. I just dont agree with Christian science. The universe is older than 6000 years, and humans did evolve from and along side other apes. Nice meme sticker. You get an extra star in your achievement notebook after class.

>>2579737

Egyptians were building pyramids and worshiping their gods literally thousands of years before Israel ever came into existence.

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ITT: atheists getting intellectually destroyed

The world is 6000 years old and there's nothing they can do about it.

>>2580187
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe

>>2580187
To you. The universe does not appear billions of years old to you. I learned how to use a telescope when I was 10. I think you are still looking through the cardboard paper towel tube.

>>2580187
>The universe does not appear to be billions of years old.
>I don't know where you got that from.

lol

>>2580193
>thousands of years
You mean a couple centuries.

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>>2580197
>wikipedia

Credibility lost.

>>2580194
bounoure never said that
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part12.html

>>2580194

such stale bait

>>2580204
>talkorigins
www.trueorigin.org

ITT: Creationist who think the universe is nothing but God's wet dream he had last night. There's your milky way.

>>2580206
>>2580204
>>2580199
Samefag.

>>2580203
>creationist suddenly concerned with credibility

ITT: Evolutionists mad that others don't believe in their monkey fantasy

>>2579737
There are fossil records of religious practices that go back past 30,000 years.

inb4 you suggest burial rites have nothing to do with religion, and that people passing down stories word-of-mouth gives superior authenticity to a belief system

>>2580217
>30,000 years
That's impossible.

Why would you deliberately make a fool of yourself?

>>2580223
Oh, shit, I didn't know what I was thinking.

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>mfw the Bible is literally true and scientifically accurate
>atheists throwing a shit fit and crying like sore losers

feels good having science and evidence on my side

>>2580230
you can bait better than this, have some self respect

Friendly reminder that the Creation, Flood, Babel and Resurrection were real historical events.

I understand you hate God, I understand you desperately wish the Bible wasn't true, but wishful thinking won't change reality. Sorry.

wew, neo-darwinists getting destroyed in this thread

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>>2580237
This is OFFICIALLY the point where &humanities is deliberately shitting up the /his/tory part of the board.

>>2580246
Uhm, his post was about history.

Nothing to do with humanities.

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Why are these Goys fighting about the cucked bastard religion we gave them to completely fuck them ul and keep them fighting while we proclaim our superiority as the chosen people? Oh yeah.

Zoroastrianism for one.

>>2581201
Troll harder.

>>2579737
Hinduism is thought to be 3500 years old.

>>2579737
the oldest known possible religion is the belief system that the Venus figurines belonged to, from ones found in situ,they were apparently hung in prominent display in huts, possibly as talismans to ward away evil. hinting that they were part of some larger paleolithic belief system.

>>2581203
Constantine?

>>2579864
Prove they were not :^>

>>2581328
the Sumerian and Egyptian pantheons for a statt. oh and the aten cult

>>2579798
This, except Vedic Brahmanism was a very differerent animal. As was early judaism. Hell, even Second Temple was pretty fucking different to rabbanaic.

Religions are not static things, OP.

>>2579932
The oldest parts of the bible are dated to the 8th century BCE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Table_I:_Chronological_overview

Zoroaster could be up to thousand years older

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#Date

>>2580223
Why? I thought there were burial rites found from that time.

>>2581547
Because the world is approx. 6000 years old.

30,000 is older than creation, which is impossible.

Hinduism is older than Judaism.

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>>2581408
Awwww yeah motherfukken Zoroaster up in this bitich

>>2580217
I mean that depends on what is meant by "religion". Animism and polytheism are certainly the oldest religion because thats almost certainly the default first stage for humanity; everyone from germanics to africans.

>>2581569
nice b8

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>>2580200
No he doesn't mean a couple of centuries. Try atleast 1200 years if not more.

>>2579737
The Canaanite religion that ancient judaism stemmed from would by definition predate it.

>>2580237
> but wishful thinking won't change reality. Sorry.
Your cognitive dissonance is showing.

>>2580084
You don't know what you're talking about holy shit, why are you fags so common on here?
It's exactly the same as the retards that cherry pick shit from the Qur'an without any understanding of what they're cherry picking.

Reminder that there are atheist trolls on /his/ that pretend to be retarded in order to to make Christians look bad, such as
>>2579863
>>2579915
>>2579932
>>2580088
>>2581569

>>2582276
Reminder that there are Christians retarded enough to actually believe this stuff and give cover for trolls like that.

>>2582285
This desu
Biblical inerrancy as practiced by proddies is a cancer that must be stopped. It's okay to admit that the OT is steeped in myth and that the NT has errors in terms of geography and scripture quoted/account details like Judas' death

>>2582287
Honest question. Seeing as Christians believe that the bible was revealed by God, and God is inerrant, and yet the bible has errors in it... How does that work?

>>2582311
Massive amounts of cognitive dissonance. It's also how they reconcile the discrepancies in the Bible, or the ones between the OT and the NT.

>>2582311
Because God didn't write the Bible?
It isnt the Quran and people need to stop treating it that way.

>>2582311
Bible isn't very important.

>>2582323
Only proddies believe everything in the Bible is inerrant though. It wasn't even an established doctrine until about 200 years ago.
Even Calvin and CS Lewis note there are errors.

None of them are enough to destroy the message of Christ though.

>>2582331
How is the bible not important? Please develop that thought. What denom are you? And if the bible isn't important what's important? How do you what to believe in?

>>2582276
You should know. You're one of them. Anon is right. Zoroaster read the tanakh as it was constituted during the Jewish captivity in Babylon that mutated into captivity under the Medeo-Persian empire. That's where Zoroaster came into contact with the Jewish scriptures, added some local pagan fire god to the mix, and created his own religion.

All pagan religions are based on Babylon, with Nimrod the Sun God, Semiramis the Queen of Heaven, and Tammuz the resurrected son. All Mother Son pagan cults are based off of this beginning, about 4400 years ago, so all of them predate Judaism.

>>2582311
the bible has no errors in it. the copies we have from 3500 years to now do have errors in them. We have translations, not the autographs.

The translations suffice.

>>2582355
Catholic. They don't give a whit of concern for the bible. They have their own thing going on.

>>2580223
Because God really, really wants everyone to believe otherwise.

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>>2581408

Rabbi, please.

They’re taking taking stories written from 250 B.C. and later and simply claiming that as these stories discuss events from a bazillion years back, those events as written must be true, which is retarded and non-scientific;

“The Hobbit, written by the prophet J.R.R. Tolkien (may Eru Ilúvatar smile upon him) says that Bilbo found the One Ring in the Misty Mountains, which is obviously just another name for the Alps. So you see, it’s all true!”

>>2580217
There aren't, actually. Only claims that there are, and dubious dating methodologies to "prove" it.

>>2582461
Similarly, to prove how "Chinese" a certain dynasty is, they reached back "10,000 years" to establish their bona fides.

Nobody really believes that means their family is 10,000 years old, but for internet autists, of course.

>>2580259
No, it was about a piece of fiction some insane people desperately want to be true.

>>2580246

So, if you don't like something in history, it didn't happen for you.

Like, subjective history.

>>2582442
How do you know? And if God had an infallible message to transmit to humanity, and he let it be perverted by translators and the original message lost, then this is the same thing in practice as transmitting a fallible message.

>>2582481
It's true, and you're the insane one who thinks you get to vote on its veracity.

>>2582502
Message comes through loud and clear. There are obviously some idioms that do not, and some spelling variants, and the odd copyist errors, but if 99.5% intact isn't good enough for you, take it up with God personally, and get 100% satisfaction.

>>2582509
But I'm not talking about spelling mistakes and scribal variations. The errors in the bible that I'm referring to are scientific and historical mistakes such as there ever being a Jewish captivity in Egypt, there ever being a Jewish empire from the Nile to the Euphrates, young earth, etc.

>>2582536
Those things are all true, and not errors at all.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, which are of course nothing but your baseless opinion.

>>2582536
Are you expecting scientifically accurate shit to be in mythic stories from the Stone Age......?

>>2582536
You may be too young to remember this, but people like you have always been saying the bible is wrong because you lack external evidence to support what the bible says.

One of the most egregious of these claims was that the bible was wrong because there was no external evidence of a Hittite empire.

Google Hittite empire now and see how much has been discovered since skeptics like you pronounced the bible false for including it.

Then Google "atheists admit they were wrong, and the bible is right". Should net zero results.

>>2582565
Oh so you're going with the "science is a conspiracy" narrative.

>>2582569
I don't. I'm merely asking how can Christians reconcile that their belief is based on a book full of errors.

>>2582572
No results found for "atheists admit they were wrong, and the bible is right".

>>2582577
No, I'm going with the bible is the inerrant and authoritative word of God that has always been proven true, and science is mankind's wisdom which has always proven to be foolish.

>>2582577
Zero errors.

None.

That's how.

>>2582572
Good argument (unlike that other retard). But there is hard evidence that the earth and the human race are older than 6000 years and therefore biblical cosmology and anthropology are wrong.

>>2582572
To be fair, even Iliad was confirmed to be somewhat right and it isn't like Christians suddenly believed in Zeus after that.

>>2582581
>>2582583
So multiple scientists from multiple different fields independently proving the bible wrong means nothing to you? So you go to an exorcist or to a doctor when you're sick?

>>2582600
>Do you go to an exorcist or to a doctor when you're sick?
I ask this because, in order to be consistent, you can't pick and choose what part of science if "foolish" and what is not. If you're consistent, you must believe that diseases are caused by demons and that foolish science is utterly incapable of providing treatment for them.

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>>2582472
> Similarly, to prove how "Chinese" a certain dynasty is, they reached back "10,000 years" to establish their bona fides.

Exactly, and every human culture does this;

PLATO: “ancient Egyptian texts say Atlantis sank beneath the waves!”
ARISTOTLE: “nah, that sounds like bullshit.”
PLATO: “but the Egyptians are real, so it must be true!”
ARISTOTLE: “oh, well that makes sense then.”

As mentioned above, the earliest _existing_ text of Judaism is the Greek Septuagint from 250 B.C. and later and thus that is _scientifically_ the furthest back you can extend Judaism.

>>2582620
The Qumrani stuff is older than that, but it still only gets you to about 400 B.C. or so.

>>2582589
There is not hard evidence if you consider that the geological column is not found anywhere in nature; that it is a model; and that it has many difficulties in explaining reality (such as inverted ages in the Grand Canyon and polystrate fossils).

If you then examine the sedimentary rock cliffs created by the explosion of Mt. St. Helen's in the 1980's, cliffs with dozens of striations of hardened mud (sedimentary rock) created in months, the entire notion that the geological column is accurate goes right out the window.

Sedimentary rock is sediment from the Flood, mudslides if you will, that hardened in layers.

Not the earth's crust over millions of years, somehow completely intact with no burrowing animal holes or really any holes whatsoever in each "layer".

Same evidence, but seen through a different worldview.

>>2582590
As a Christian, I very much believe in Zeus.

Zeus is nothing but Adam deified by the pagans, and eventually by the Greeks as the Father of us all. You can see this in bas relief in the Parthenon with Zeus and Hera naked covered with fig leaves standing next to a small apple tree with one apple on it, and a snake coiled around the tree.

You can name that Adam and Eve, or Zeus and Hera, but it's representing the exact same thing.

So while I do not believe in Zeus the god throwing lightning bolts about in the heavens, I very much believe in Adam, whom Zeus is based on, as the father of humanity.

>>2582600
It's never happened. Once you leave Hogwarts, you will find that reality does not comport to your godless worldview.