>god created everything >god created evil and misery >god

God is evil

pic related, God

File: Lion-faced_deity.jpg (22KB, 205x252px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 205x252px

>>2571095

>why isnt this heaven already?

>god created evil

this is where you fucked up

File: christian.png (423KB, 876x1496px) Image search: [Google]

423KB, 876x1496px

>>2571083
>God created evil and misery
That's where you're wrong anon. God didn't "create" misery, God IS good, so all misery and evil comes from separation from God. Hell, the most miserable place that exists, is total separation from God.

>>2571189
>in the beginning there was nothing
>god creates everything
>evil exists
>god created evil

And if god created something and gave it the capacity to do evil, then he created evil

>>2571337
What makes you believe evil is an entity? Also what is evil according to you?

If he allowed evil and misery to exist the whole redeeming mankind from sin plan wouldn't have been put into action.

See you next thread nublet.

>>2571399
You're the one saying it's an entity. Entities aren't the only things that have the privilege of existing. What does my definition of evil matter? Do you deny that it exists, regardless of whose definition you want to go by?

>>2571083
God's not good. Or, at least, he's not infinitely good. He favors tough love. Without evil, how could we appreciate good?

ITT: no one understands the concept of free will, which has been the fundamental explanation for evil in the two Abrahamic religions since they have existed.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:7

>>2571446
Your scope of understanding is so narrow. If god created human beings to have free-will and in our free will we have the capacity to do evil, then God has directly had a hand in ensuring evil exists in the world.

>>2571468
Allowing evil to exist =/= creating evil.

>>2571487
Don't skirt around my point, I didn't say that. God created humans that do evil, he has to have created 'evil' to even give us the capacity to do it.

>>2571337
>and if God created something and gave it the capacity to do evil, then he created evil
Wrong. That's like saying God invented television since God created man and man invented television.

>>2571468

That's not even true and there's three Abrahamic religions.

>>2571503
Not necessarily. The ability to do evil comes from our free will, not necessarily because God has endowed us with the ability to do evil.

>>2571468
So if I have a child and he's a sociopath but I treat him well all his life and he still acts out sociopathic urges it's somehow my fault?

File: vash.jpg (197KB, 760x480px) Image search: [Google]

197KB, 760x480px

>>2571503
>he has to have created 'evil' to even give us the capacity to do it
I mean, God IS good, so he didn't so much create evil so much as he allows us to choose God, or not God.

>>2571083
That's because much like the concept of hot and cold, good and evil aren't separate concepts, but rather evil is simply the absence of good.

File: received_1050294951766763.jpg (9KB, 431x406px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 431x406px

Christian - "God has a plan for all and knows everything we do before we even do it"

Therefore there is no free will...

>>2571583
Is knowing the future actually erasing free will though? If I nudge someone towards believing something, am I taking away their free will?

At any time, we have the capability to rebel. Knowing if we will or not beforehand doesn't really remove that option, since we're ultimately making the choice anyway.

Oh wow, the question of evil. Damn, everyone's stumped. How didn't anyone think to tackle this shit before???

>>2571503
>God created humans that do evil,
He didn't. He gave us free will to do good or to do otherwise (what we call evil). God is The Good (sort of like Plotinus' concept of "The One"), and our decisions bring us closer to or further from Him. An action that does the former is good, an action that does the latter is bad/evil.
(I'm not religious, I just made up this argument during my philosophy classes. I think there are better arguments against the Christian God.)

There's also iirc the concept of Hell which is bad not because you are tortured in it, but because it is a place without God.

It's called the Demiurge and yes it is evil.

>>2571602
If if we will rebel or not is already written, why is it necessary for us to actually do the action. Seems like a waste of time.

>>2571602
You did not bring my other pont up. He has a plan for everyone.

Therefore god is not letting us do what we want.

>>2571541
>So if I have a child and he's a sociopath but I treat him well all his life and he still acts out sociopathic urges it's somehow my fault?

It's not your fault because you're not omnipotent. If you were omnipotent, then yes it would be your fault, because you created him that way on purpose.

>>2571516
>That's like saying God invented television since God created man and man invented television.

If God is omnipotent, then God did "invent" television.

>>2571602
>Knowing if we will or not beforehand doesn't really remove that option, since we're ultimately making the choice anyway.

He doesn't just know the future, though, he created the universe such that that future must occur.

>>2571730
>If you were omnipotent, then yes it would be your fault,
That doesn't make sense.

>>2571083
>god created everything
>god created good and happiness
>god is all powerful
>god allows good and happiness to exist

Why would an evil omnipotent God allow good and happiness to exist?

File: nigga thats a spook.png (10KB, 215x235px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 215x235px

>this thread

>>2571083
What's going on in this picture? Did he cut off the dragons ear? Why?

>>2571083
>god allows evil and misery to exist

what is evil according to you, could be good from a different perspective

the key assumption, and the fatal flaw of your argument, is that there is an objective definition of "evil" or "good"

>>2571083
God exists as the cosmic unity of all things. Evil is merely a quality of souls meaning that they lack goodness or closeness to God.

See the arguments put forward by Augustine and Irenaeus on the problem of evil. Augustine believed that God did not create evil. Everything created by God is good as he is the perfect being. It was only when Adam and Eve committed the original sin that they brought evil into the world, including death and disease. While God has to punish humanity for what we have done, as we are seminally present in Adam at the time of the sin, and are therefore sinful, he is also merciful as he sent his only son, Christ to our world to die for our sins.

Irenaeus believed in the first and second Adam. Though I might be mixing the phrasing up with schlieiermacher. Evil is necessary as our love for God must be tested. If a robot is programmed to love, is it really love? Our love for God must come from our choice to ignore the evils which ar present in this world.

There are plenty of other theologies on the topic but these two were the two big originals.

>>2573509
But they all fail because the definition of "choice" is arbitrary and they assume that it's impossible for somebody to be forced to commit evil.

>>2573293
the argument works within the frame of assuming the objective concepts of good and evil within a religion to show an inherent contradiction.

>>2573548
The idea is that humanity created evil itself, not God. God created a utopia and it was destroyed by humans. This brought natural evil into the world and the idea of evil was brought into the world. Humans only choose evil because they brought evil into the world by disobeying God,

File: 1489207923958.png (87KB, 321x308px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 321x308px

>someone posts the bible verse from isaiah where god says he created evil

>christians ignore it and still say god doesn't create evil

>>2573568
This lol. I don't get these retarded discussions. If God is the creator of the universe, he is the creator of evil as well as good.

>>2571083
>Any theists can explain this? How can you believe in a god that allows evil?

By looking at the alternatives, obviously.

1. Create no universe. No evil.
2. Create automaton universe. No evil, but no love.
3. Create Pollyanna universe. No evil, but no love.
4. Create this free will moral agency universe. Evil, but also Love.

As God is Love, and God's highest ideal is Love, only this universe allows for Love to be the highest ideal; only this universe has the conditions under which God can express his love for us, and we for him.

>>2573568
We'll just point out that "ra" in the Hebrew in that context means "calamities". Being God in good weather and in hurricanes makes sense in context.

We're good at pointing out things that are true.

>>2573577
Evil is not a created thing. Evil is a twisted, warped, perverted or broken good thing.

>>2573564
With some help from satan, the father of evil.

>>2573548
The definition of choice is the result of the ability to choose. What's complicated about that?

>>2573568
I don't particularly care much about it, though I know the quote you're on about.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".

This right?
It is a big problem, but consider that not everyone follows the scripture completely, not everyone is a fundamentalist. I still think that it's a weird argument, I dislike the Christians trying to portray their God as perfect in every way and never doing any harm when there are stories like that in the bible, even if it was justified like Sodom and Gomorrah.

>>2573588
Well that's a criticism of the Augustinian argument. One could also say that God created Lucifer who was evil, and that he created hell, so he obviously intended for evil to exist because that's where evil resides.

>>2573586
>Evil is not a created thing. Evil is a twisted, warped, perverted or broken good thing.

This doesn't answer anything. If God is the source of everything, he is also the source of evil.

>>2571337
So you'd blame God for giving us free will? Maybe you want to rethink this.

File: 1482769425430.jpg (97KB, 377x395px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 377x395px

>>2573586

Yeah. Calamities meaning god creates good and evil. Good and bad things are all supposed to happen at his will. There is a whole lot before the NT. Try reading it. God clearly says he creates evil, and there is an entire book of Job where evil happens at god's command as a test of faith.


The Bible is 100% clear that god also creates evil. Read your own holy book.

>>2573598
Again, "calamities" fits in that sentence, not "evil".

God does no evil, authors no evil, harbors no evil.

>>2573608
>One could also say that God created Lucifer who was evil

Not truthfully, no. God created the highest and best angel, and that highest and best angel fell from grace by staging a coup in heaven and turning himself into the devil.

>>2573610
Men and angels are the source of evil.

There was no evil prior to the creation of men and angels.

There will be no evil after men and the angels are sorted out for eternity.

Evil is a temporary problem.

>>2573610
It has been attempted to explain that it was because of humans. He had to create humans with free will so they had the free will to love him, see my post on the Irenaean theodicy. >>2573509
The argument is that humans had the free will to do evil and that God had no part in their decision, he instructed them to be good and they were not.

Again, I don't like the argument because of Christianity i general. It's sort of a flawed religion in that, while it has great morals, it is an abrahamic religion that many tried to apply to western culture, leading to discrepancies

>>2573619
No, calamities like hurricanes and tornadoes and floods and tsunamis, which are not evil.

But they are calamities.

>>2573619
>The Bible is 100% clear that god also creates evil. Read your own holy book.

It does not; evil is not a created thing; the Creation week had no evil thing created in it; God rested following the Creation week.

I've obviously read it at least once, which is obviously at least once more than you have.

>>2573639
The "discrepancies" are that it is not a means to rule the world, or save the world, but to redeem individuals from the world.

>>2573635
>Men and angels are the source of evil.

And God created men and angels with the capacity to do evil, e.g God is the actual source of the evil.

>>2573648
Blaming God for evil is the act of a fool.

God did no evil. God does you no evil.

Maybe you're getting too old to avoid all personal responsibility in your life.

>>2573662
I'm not blaming God for anything moron. I'm setting the record straight.

If there is a creator of the universe, he is the creator of evil, just as much as good.

Deal with it fagtron.

>>2573646
Eh, I mean, my issue is that there is a lack of consistency between what scripture is saying and what Christians throughout history have been trying ot push. Obviously it happens throughout a lot of religion and Christianity is by no means the only offender. I just think a Semitic religion doesn't suit Europeans and we can see this from Europeans trying to impose their ideas on a religion which was formed from Judaism by Jews who put similar narratives in the bible.

File: 1489295484312.jpg (24KB, 295x378px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 295x378px

>>2573640
>>2573644

Yes. Clearly the book speaks of peaceness and light and contrasts this with weather and not evil. God flat out says he creates evil. There is a specific book where god commands evil to happen to Job to show he is the god of everything.

God does create evil and even lets it happen or does it himself. You may argue whether or not the evil is justified, whether it is evil at all if god does it, and you can even say it's tough love. But don't flat out lie and go against your own faith when the very book you say is the word of god says vehemently that god does create evil and even does evil acts.

As I said the nature of these evil acts can be justified and all that, but there is zero debate as to whether god creates evil. If you are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, that much is very clear from your book. The Abrahamic god makes no apologies for it, see Job. Maybe you see it as justified for spiritual growth or to test faith and all that, but you cannot argue the words of the very god you claim to believe in. He says he creates evil. Your words mean nothing.

We can even see this in passages where he intentionally hardens the heart of the pharoah so he can have Moses perform miracles. And the world MUST become more evil if Revelations is to come to fruition. There is no doubt that evil is a part of what god does, and indeed, has planned. May be for a good purpose in your view, maybe even loving because it tests us and provides the contrast to know gods love after we fear him (which is the beginning of wisdom as per proverbs), but don't lie, you ignorant fool.

>>2573674
Grow up. Take responsibility for the evil YOU have done.

>>2573679
Keep it simple. Christians push Jesus is God, the Creator of the Universe, came down as one of us to redeem us from our plight and rose from the dead on the third day, as he said he would.

That's Christianity.

>>2573699
Yeah, that would be ideal but I feel like it's gone too far to stop after 2000 years. Too much bickering over what really means what, and we can see how this divides Christians of different cultures in the Great Schism.

>>2571095
fpbp

>>2573699
I'm not even so sure about this Jesus cat, seems really sketchy and tacked on by fanatics.

>>2573688
Another fool is heard from.

God did no evil to Job. God had a hedge of protection around Job and his family and his property that the devil could not penetrate.

For reasons beyond you, God chose to test Job in the fire, and seal his righteousness forever. God therefore removed the hedge, and limited the damage the devil could do.

Note that the devil could only do damage after God's restraining hand was lifted. As that hand stops the devil from physically tormenting and possessing YOU, maybe a thanks is in order.

Evil happens in God's permissive will, not God's express will.

God does no evil, condones no evil, and bears no evil.

The pharoah hardened his own heart 7 times, 7 being the number of completion/perfection. God gave him the power to stick to his convictions and be an evil ruler.

God gave you the power to rebel against him too, and stick to your evil convictions. Do you think you could rebel against God on your own? Do you think you could prevail against God?

No, if God is as you say he is, mankind has no hope.

>>2573715
The great falling away was predicted thousands of years ago. Experiencing it should strengthen your faith, not weaken it. All is going according to the plan God laid out through his prophets and His Son.

This world will end in fire, and soon. Do you not hear it groaning in pain?

>>2573725
He's around. He can see you right now. He can hear you right now. He'll be there if you want to meet him yourself.

I agree. First hand meeting, best meeting.

Decent wee thread going so far lads, let's keep it going

>>2573749
I'm a pagan not Christian, sorry senpai. I left Catholicism a long time ago.

>>2573751
Spooky ghost Jesus is creeping on me when I'm jacking off in the shower?

>>2573747
Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.


3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

>>2573764
You made a lateral move, friend, from pagan Catholic to honest pagan.

>>2573766
Strange that's the first thought you'd have. As though that would be what you would do if you were Jesus.

>>2573770
Yeah they are similar. The pagan elements in Catholicism were the only things keeping me going. Obviously it's difficult to be taken serious when saying that there is one set of Gods/God and there is nothing else, everyone else is wrong. I just chose to go with something that is more in keeping with my ethnicity and something that I prefer the message.

>>2573747

Okay, so you're not even being serious then. God expressly says he does evil because he is all powerful, god does evil, and apparently you ignore the passages that say god hardens the heart of pharoah and say that pharoah did it. The exact opposite of what the story says or means.

I see you have either never heard a word of the Bible beyond some cherrypicked quotes and ample asspull apologetics. Have you ever read anything from Biblical scholars and not just nice sounding ad hoc rationalizations?

As for the bullshit about me defeating god, no. Nor does it matter because whether or not god can beat me in a fight does not change the fact of what god says or did as per your own book.

>>2573773
>Jesus invisibly spies on all the rapes that occur daily and doesn't lift a finger
Wonderful magic California Surfer Dude Jesus doesn't seem so majestic when you take it to it's logical conclusion.

>>2573782

As an addendum:

>No, if God is as you say he is, mankind has no hope.

This is the real reason why you refuse to accept what the Bible says or what I say. Because you want to be moral and cannot imagine a god doing bad things despite your book saying it. Your own fear of being immoral is why you are arguing this point so pathetically rather than justifying it in the other ways I have said. It's just sad. As if god being any type of way or there being no god suddenly means man has no hope. Says who? Why does that idea mean man has no hope?

>>2573782
>Have you ever read anything from Biblical scholars and not just nice sounding ad hoc rationalizations?
Not that anon, but you understand doing this is literally against the teachings of the bible? Yeah?

File: 1422833828759.jpg (39KB, 600x609px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 600x609px

>>2571083
God allows evil to exist to strengthen out character.

See for yourself, those who have had bad things happen in their life and pulled through tend to be far wiser and happier than those who have never struggled in their life.

>god created evil and misery
God did not create evil, but he did create free will. Evil is what is opposed to the goodness of God or which works in contradiction to him. He never made evil, but allowed it to exist so that his creation could choose to love him, as opposed to being forced to love him.

God is often compared to a father, because like a good father God sometimes puts us into uncomfortable situations so that we can become wiser and happier in the long run. God allows suffering because he knows what is best for us, and he never serves us any more suffering than he knows we can handle. When you realize this, then you find truth in the phrase: "God is Good."

tl;dr - God allows suffering to exist to make us stronger, and he did not create evil but allows it to exist so that we may have free will.

>>2573782
Exodus 7:13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

7 times Pharoah hardened his heart. It was completely hardened.

This concept should not be this difficult for you to grasp.

Once the Pharoah's heart was hardened, God did what God said he would do.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Since you are not and will never be a ruler over men, this does not concern you.

>>2573784
And people like you have no idea where people like that are headed.

You wouldn't have the stomach for it.

>>2573766
>>2573773
>>2573784
and this analogy falls apart when you begin to realize that God created you, and has about as much intrest in your sexuality as a normal person does to birds mating.

If you honestly think Jesus is watching keenly when you jack off, then you should get over yourself you narcissistic bastard.

>>2573828
Because God would be evil, and who can withstand him?

>>2573847
This OP.

>>2573268
op here idk really wish i could help

>>2573862
I always thought it was a weird go-to for the godless; they have that entire ever expanding pictograph where Jesus ends up looking at the entire universe and says "stop masturbating".

Do these people not understand that God created sex? And created it to be joyful and pleasurable?

>>2573862
>If you honestly think Jesus is watching keenly when you jack off, then you should get over yourself you narcissistic bastard.

Woah woah It's not me saying it, chill. Take it up with the guy who believes in ghosts and satans.

>>2573847
Arbitrary as fuck.

>>2573856

They took out the whole "the lord hardened pharoah's heart" these days?


>>2573863
He does not even exist as you understand him. Even if god was evil, so what? That means you lie and pretend what the Bible says isn't what it says? Ignoring the truth does not make it go away. And I believe in a god. But my god does not require me to live in fear and live like an afraid animal like the Abrahamic god does.

>>2571739
>If God is omnipotent, then God did "invent" television.

That doesn't even logically follow.

>tfw you answer the OP but he just continues getting into arguments with other people who haven't answered the question as well as you, proving he's just a butthurt atheist who wants to argue with theists rather than come to any genuine understanding

>>2573884
how?

>>2573893
point me there anon.
Not OP but genuinely curious to see an answer.

>>2573893
Has op really posted much in this thread, though?

>>2571503
>God created humans that do evil
Deterministic fallicy. God creates men who have the capacity to do good. Failing to do good is what is called evil. All men can choose to lead perfect lives. Most fail.

>>2573894
How isn't it? To god, what he fuck does it matter if we chose him or we are forced? (implying if hell and heaven do actually exist we are not forced to choose him, only an idiot or someone ignorant would choose hell in the objective existence of a Christian god)

If he is omnipotent, if he can make what ever he wants, why do we "have" to be "strong", why can't we be "weak"? That reasoning is as arbitrary as it fucking gets. Literally not one bit of actual reasoning, which you cannot give, because as you know, it doesn't fucking exist.

Your only answer can be that I do not "understand gods will" like you do.

Because it's fucking arbitrary.

God created satan and allows you to serve him.

>>2573902
>All men can choose to lead perfect lives.
Except the ones with brain damage :)

>>2573902
This. A commonly used example is blindness. Blindness is a lack of sight, Evil is a lack of Goodness. God didn't create blindness, some people just fail to have working eyes for many reasons. In the same way God didn't create evil, it was merely humans who failed to do good.

>>2573873
ussualy they make those in reaction to priests who say that jesus knows when you masturbate. Often used by the souther churches of america to discourage lustful behaviour amongst church followers.

What the souther preechers soom to fail to mention is why it is sinful to masturbate.
From what i understand, the reason is because masturbation is usually in response to pornographic thoughts or images, and is thereby a result of lust. which removes whatever purity it has and makes it perverse in its intended meaning.

thats just my thoughts. either way militant athesists tend to do shit like that cause they dont like the church much.

>>2573885
No, that's contained in verses that follow the complete hardening of pharaoh's heart.

Again, since you are not and never will be pharaoh of Egypt, or king of anything, this does not pertain to you.

If God were evil, man has no hope. That you cannot grasp this is ponderous. What hope does the devil offer you?

Do you believe him?

>>2573906
How do you know it doesn't exist anon?
This is a religious thread, non-theists or people who are hostile to theists (edgy fedora tippers) must leave.

>>2573916
This.

Darkness is not a created thing. It is the absence of light.

Evil is not a created thing. It is the absence of good.

When the light turns on, where does the darkness go?

>>2573920
Seems like a giant demonic distraction to me.

File: Thumbs-and-Ammo-3.jpg (265KB, 600x409px) Image search: [Google]

265KB, 600x409px

>>2573930
This guy gets it.

>>2573928
How do you know it does? This is your reasoning, this reasoning is not in the bible, this is your arbitrary as fuck interpretation (heresy) of the bible.

>you don't know that it isn't so therefore it is
Great fucking argument.

>>2573930
So god didn't create light? What else didn't god create?

Leviticus 15:16

"'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

Leviticus 15:25

"'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period.

Matthew 5:19

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:28

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

>>2573956
God created light.

God did not create darkness. God separated light from darkness. Because darkness is the absence of light. It is not a created thing in and of itself.

Everything is the light.

--Nikola Tesla

>>2573944
I'm not saying it does or it does not. I merely have faith. I'm not saying that makes me a good person, I'm saying that it doesn't make me a fedora tipping autist like yourself.
I have no proof of it, and neither do you. At least be agnostic and keep the position that it can't be proven and leave it there. I'm at least being neutral and accepting of others unlike you, just because you think it doesn't exist doesn't exclude the possibility that it might.

>>2573906
>To god, what the fuck does it matter if we chose him or we are forced?
it matters a lot. (agape) Love (that thing that Christ emphasizes in his sermon on the mount) is the foundation of a relationship with God, Love cannot exist if we are forced to choose God, only if we choose him by our own will and sentiment does our desire to be with him become love.

What many people seem to misunderstand about hell is what hell is. Hell is not an actual place of fire and brimstone, but the absence of God and all goodness in life that comes with God. Hell is the concept of the Jewish and Greek afterlife: that we continue the path we chose in life, in death. If we walked with God in life, we walk with him in the afterlife. If we chose to flee from him, we will forever remain in his absence. The illustration of fire is just a way of comparing what it would feel like to what we can currently experience. the pain and dread from burning alive is equivalent (if not much less) than the torture of spending eternity separated from God.

>f he is omnipotent, if he can make what ever he wants, why do we "have" to be "strong", why can't we be "weak"?
because we are entities independent of God, and do not walk as him but with him. If an infant is never taught to walk, then how can they walk with you?

> Literally not one bit of actual reasoning, which you cannot give, because as you know, it doesn't fucking exist.
Please calm down. Please don't assume that the argument is closed just because you think it is, as there are perspectives outside of your mind that you may not have considered.

>Because it's fucking arbitrary.
what i shared in anything but arbitrary.

>>2573928
is not me btw.
going to namefag to prevent confusion.

File: Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg (42KB, 514x514px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 514x514px

>>2571583
I never got that concept. Just because someone knows what you are going to do does not mean they control what you will do, or will prevent you from doing it. I'm an Pastafarian, and I always thought this was a weird/flawed argument against theism.

>>2573969
If god created light he created the absence of it known as darkness. You are a fucking moron, he created a flawed thing which allowed darkness to exist.

At one stage there was no darkness and there was no light, god created them both. It's Murphies law, he created something with the capacity for something else to exist within it, and it did.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean he didn't create it. He made the circumstances possible for it to exist. It's the exact same thing. Just like how god didn't "create" life, he created the circumstances to allow life to exist.

>>2573964
Yeah, the first two are pretty light. Being unclean until evening is pretty light punishment under the Law. Same as not being kosher. Eat a bacon double cheeseburger, have to leave the City until sundown, then come back and wash.

As to the third, the "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

As to the fourth, this is why the answer to when all sins were forgiven is crucial, as everyone sins more than they think they do, more than they can know, and in ways they will never think of on their own.

If you have to confess all of your sins to be forgiven, you will never be forgiven of all your sins.

>god created good and evil so we will have the concept of free will
>its your free will to believe in god BUT if you dont believe in god you will forever burn in hell
>you have free will BUT god has a plan for all and knows everything we do before we even do it
>creates humans to have free will and then punishes them if they do something he doesnt like
>God allows evil to exist to strengthen out character
>what kind of a god allows innocent children born with physical deficiencies suffering there whole life
>all the wars, murders, diseases , genocides ,hunger of millions and millions of people all the sadness broken dreams wasted times wasted lives evil people doing evil shit all the people who never had a smile in there life

what kind of god is that? and you defend his actions?

>evil is subjective
you know exactly what i mean when i say evil

>>2573933
it typically is.
Militant atheists tend to hate religion (especially Christianity) with a passion, and so will often create lies about its history or misrepresent/distort the truth to push their agenda of "a religion-free world".

>>2573983
Ah, I see. You're being obtuse on purpose for your own entertainment.

>>2571083
>>2571095
God didn't create evil. God created free will, which humans used to create suffering.

>>2573986
Is the god you made up in your mind.

Nobody worships your imaginary god.

Matthew 5:20

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:13

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Acts 10:28

He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

File: 2373364_orig.jpg (34KB, 930x198px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 930x198px

>>2573975
So then therefore you must also allow for the idea that it is arbitrary.
>Just because you think it doesn't exist doesn't exclude the possibility that it might.
Right back at cha. We all have faith, just not faith in the inherently flawed, contradictory piece of work you call the bible. I can tell you are using other biblical scholars reasoning to cement your faith. Which is literal fucking heresy, in both new and old testaments. There are only a few parts of the bible you need to read and that's Paul saying to not take anything anyone says but the bible at face value because he knew he was translating, how idiotic and easily manipulated you people are.

>>2573977
Nice try, that is still as arbitrary as it fucking gets
>we won't be able to love!
Holy shit that's case in point.

>>2574000
its your imaginary god not mine

>>2573996
Kek. Nice try.

>>2574005
1. You have to figure out how to have Jesus' righteousness imputed to you in order to exceed the righteousness of the pharisees and scribes.

2. Just like Catholics, the more people they take into their fold, the more lost they are.

3. Note it took the early church until Acts 10 to figure out that salvation was not Jew only.

>>2574010
The god you described, you imagined in your mind. And then chose not to worship that god.

You did not describe the one true God in any meaningful way whatsoever.

>>2574015
No, you're just wrong and I don't do this for entertainment.

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Before God said "Let there be light", there was darkness.

File: Template.jpg (160KB, 500x487px) Image search: [Google]

160KB, 500x487px

>>2574008
>doesnt read my argument in full
>dismisses it
>cognative dissonance
>mfw

look at that folks, its the typical fedora argument:
>im right your wrong
>here's proof you are wrong
>nice try faggot, but your proof is wrong!
>i provide more proof
>lul, like that prooves anything!

This is why we can't have nice things.
(pic related)

>>2571468
Your statement is not logically sound.

Matthew 21:31

"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

>>2574008
I follow Celtic polytheism not Christianity.
I accept your argument though. However atheists saying that a higher power just outright doesn't exist is stupid, easily more than any religious belief.

>>2574028
Are you actually retarded?

>In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Nothing exists in this point. No light or darkness as seen here -
> The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep
NOW darkness exists in the earth, the earth which god created.


THEN he separated light form darkness (retarded in it's own right) why the fuck didn't he leave it in it's natural state? If he didn't create it that is.

>>2571468
And if humans and angels never did anything evil, would evil exist in the creation God made?

>>2574018
how is he any diffrent?

>>2574032
>just let me be ignorant
>don't use my own words against me!
(you)

>>2573977
>Hell is not an actual place of fire and brimstone, but the absence of God and all goodness in life that comes with God.

It's both.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

>>2571083
Evil doesn't exist.

>>2574046
>>2574032

>>2573613
God didn't give anybody free will, that was Satan.

>>2571730
I don't think omnipotent means what you think it means.

>>2571083
>God creates humans
>humans have free will because if we didn't then we wouldn't really be following God out of the desire to be moral
>God tells us not to be dicks to each other because he loves us very much
>we are anyway

And that's where evil comes from.

>>2574054
You are actually still going, you can form an argument you know
>inb4 "no"
Seriously, just stop posting. You now understand the logic you use against me is explicitly usable against yourself, just because you have 'faith' doesn't make you exempt.

It makes you a fucking idiot. I mean look at you, literally all I did was reverse your logic onto yourself and you've become a blubbering retard. Let's try again, shall we? You are not making a strong case for yourself.

>>2573628
But God is omnipotent so he could have just, you know, make his best angel NOT stage a coup against him.

>>2574060
Poor ol God, powerless to stop humanity from doing whatever we want! What a sad and sympathetic scene, really makes me feel bad for him, moves me to tears for sweet kindly God getting taken advantage of by those bratty and rebellious humans!

That's it, I can't take it anymore, SIGN ME UP for that religion! I'm convinced!

File: Jesus6.jpg (80KB, 410x580px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 410x580px

>>2574038
>be me
>be god
>created earth
>11/10, would create again.
>its really dark (absence of light)
>decide to creat light
>make light out of the void
>light not yet seperate from darkness
>segregate that shit
>do other stuff
>create humanity

>1000000 years later
>fedora argues that i created darkness and evil
>mfw

>>2574038
No, the darkness was already there.

The light and dark separation was day and night for the planet.

>>2574080
You've literally just said it yourself.

God created an earth filled with darkness. He created everything leading up to the circumstances surrounding a dark earth? No?

Great argument fyi.

SO darkness existed before god? Is that what you are saying? we should actually be worshipping darkness?

>>2574045
How is the God who created the universe different from the god you described?

How about in every way possible?

>>2574070
The whole idea put forward by Irenaeus is that to truly love God and reach heaven we must have free will so we have ability to choose wrong. I suppose he applies the same idea to the angels

>>2574064
>being this self-righteous
please anon, i provided a logical argument and instead of providing a counter-argument you dismissed it. Probably because you think that since you are atheistic you are somehow above debating "pedestrian" theists.

File: 97b8ea4b037542a1322f02e3a32fc86cf580906d21a4395c29e82dda47443c5b.jpg (24KB, 268x268px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 268x268px

>>2574085
Yes, in the earth he literally just created. How fucking retarded are you idiots?

>god creates everything
>god creates earth which is dark
>god didn't create dark

>>2574070
God is omnipotent, so the coup lasted one heartbeat.

You having free will requires apparently viable alternatives to choose from.

So you can choose Jesus, and good, and life, and heaven, or you can choose satan, and evil, and death, and hell.

It's your choice. And I disagree with the above Anon. Most people make the wrong choice.

>>2574103
Did you just say that the Earth IS darkness? Boy you retarded.

>>2574100
Your argument is literally
>just because you don't know for sure doesn't mean it's not
Which I put straight back onto you, which you cannot come back from, because as you know. It's the most illogical, intellectually dishonest stand-point to take.

Just look at your responses.

>>2574103
Dark is not created.

>>2574079
>Poor ol God, powerless to stop humanity from doing whatever we want!
wow anon your reading comprehension is shit. God lets humanity get away with thier shit in this life and spares judgement untill the afterlife. He also promises to judge everyone on judgement day in the near future.

>>2574110
>holy shit

>>2574110
Some people enjoy being deliberately obtuse.

>>2574114
So are you saying it's impossible to create an earth which isn't dark?

File: IMG_0803.jpg (37KB, 433x443px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 433x443px

>2017
>he doesn't realize that Yahweh was originally a pagan God who was repurposed for political purposes
The earliest books of the Torah were probably part of a larger pagan scripture, but the rest was cut. God didn't "create" shit, he molded that which was already made by a higher Chaos. Most of the earliest books of the Torah make it clear that Yahweh is the father-god (like Zeus) but by no means the only one. Monotheism was a Christian meme.

>>2574121
I'm saying dark is not created.

Light is created.

I know you're only pretending to be retarded, but is this really that much fun for you?

>>2574127
Too stupid to respond in kind.

>>2574056
who created satan...

>>2574092
darkens did exist much the same way that the absence of anything exists.
An actual void that is absent of anything (including physical laws and quantum fields or any conveicable thing) is techincally existent as a concept, but not as a thing. Much the same, darkness is a concept that helps us to distinguish light, darkness is the absence of light.

>>2574116
Oh sorry, for a second there I was moved by deep sympathy far beyond cold hard unfeeling logic and was ready to convert, but you lost me again.

You gotta work on your conversion method. Always Be Closing.

>>2571447
>quoting the Word of God
>ignored

>>2574112
you are confusing me with another anon.
I am this anon: >>2573977
>>2573847

>>2574112
What is your issue with it really? I don't get it.
>just because you don't know for sure doesn't mean it's not
Exactly, you fucking don't know so just stop getting your jimmies rustled. We don't know either but we choose to believe in something, and it's ok if others don't Unless this guy you are responding to is literally saying that there has to be a God and there is no chance that there is not then you have no argument.

>>2574138
ctrl-F "calamities"

>>2574128
Light is not created in the same way darkness is not created. Holy shit, you do not understand what you are fucking saying senpai. Light is separated form darkness?

In the same way he 'created' light he created darkness. In the most explicit interpretation, the actual fucking words, god created darkness via creating an earth which was filled with darkness.

You are simply being intellectually dishonest. Are you saying god fucked up?

Go explain this logic. How is darkness not created, when there is literally nothing (except god) then he creates everything and in everything there is darkness? How is that not a creation of god, when hes creating literally fucking everything?

Your argument is
>darkness is not created
I don't think you understand the implications of that logic.

>>2574094
>created the universe and all in it
>didnt create sick children

???

>>2574136
wasn't trying to convert anyone.

>>2573986
no more answers?

>>2574131
>You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME
The Hebrews are known to have had multiple different gods and goddesses, and Yahweh was worshiped alongside them.

>>2574153
Is it not darkness in a metaphorically sense? Like the dark represents evil. If God just makes it so people can't see without a torch I don't see the problem.

>>2574166
different anon
yes but yahweh was before those gods. He was #1.

>>2574153
Nope.

>>2574156
Correct. Sickness did not exist until the fall of man, when sin entered into the world.

>>2574166
Nope. The other gods were demons, and God was trying to protect his people from worshiping the demons of the Canaanites.

Nothing on earth more wicked than a Canaanite.

>>2574080
underrated i think.

>>2571083
evil is an abstraction that does not have all that much to do with christian theology.

it's all god's plan. god is the ultimate "good", and also unopposable so evil can't really exist in this worldview.

>>2574178
ok so god uses revenge instead of forgivness and love?

>>2574186
>evil is an abstraction that does not have all that much to do with christian theology.
I can tell you are not Christian by the fact that you don't know how important that shit is to us Christians. Please dont speak for people you are not.

>>2571539
>God has endowed us with the ability to do evil.
That seems pretty evil to me.

>>2574186
genocide world hunger and innocent people dying is all part of a gods plan
>ultimate good

>>2571083
God didn't create evil and misery.
Evil is the privation of good, it lacks ontological reality--just as dark is the absence of light and not some force in and of itself.

>>2574192
OP says "theists", get over yourself.

>>2574133
nice 33 get.

>>2574197
ok god didnt create evil why did he create misery and sadness? why do innocents suffer?

>>2574194
>God has endowed us with the ability to do evil.
>God has given us freewill, allowing us to choose to do evil by our own accord
How are these the same things anon? An equivocation cannot make a right.

>>2574133
God created satan, then loved satan.
However, God endowed satan with freewill, as wel as all his angels and humanity.
Then 1/3 of the angels of heaven rebelled against God, so he sent them to a place absent from him.
the other 2/3 chose to stick with God.

>>2574187
Think about that for just one friggin minute.

If God were to exact vengeance upon humanity, WHO WOULD STOP HIM.

>>2574222
If you have the power to prevent evil, and you choose not to, you're evil.

>>2571447
>I make peace, and create evil:

lexically literal and scholars know this, if you're using a more literal translation, this will obviously come up, though it should be calamity since it contradicts the poetic passage (YHWH makes the shalom and the anti-shalom).

Here's an article by someone who is formally trained in biblical hebrew, dispelling this objection.

https://benstanhope.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/no-isaiah-457-doesnt-say-god-creates.html

>>2574222
you can do bad things all your life but accept god and you go to heaven
you can do good things all your life but dont accept god and you go to hell
seems p evil to me

>>2574180
please see
>>2574174

>>2574217
Misery and sadness were results from the fall of man, when mankind joined in the devil's rebellion. Sickness, sorrow, death; none of that happened until man left God's garden and joined in with the rebel demons.

Yes, God can turn evil into good. Otherwise he'd be incapable of dealing with us at all.

>>2574234
whats stopping him from preventing suffering to happen

>>2574236
No, you're evil if you ascribe evil to God.

You're evil.

>>2574242
I already called such an assertion evil. It's also wrong. It's also foolish. What else can I say about it? It's dumb?

>>2574254
I'm not the one who has the power to prevent evil, but is choosing not to.

>>2574241
this is always used. its a bad argument.

People who do good things in front of other people are not necessarily good in their heart, they may turn on their friends and do evil shit if it benefits them.

Accepting Christ requires commitment, not just saying: "i believe in you now God". You need to live by that and have complete faith, not just say it and expect a free pass. God judges one by their heart, not their words (which can lie). People who have done evil their entire life and then suddenly say sorry on their deathbed are only doing it to avoid the repercussions of their actions, but they will still get their right desserts before God when he judges their for their crimes.

>>2574247
>bilions of people should suffer for thousands of years beacuse of some stuff there ancestors did thousands of years ago? thats not forgiving thats sadistic thats str8 up evil thinking

>>2574253
Yes, ask yourself these questions. They lead to profound insights into God's character.

If God can prevent suffering and does not, is there a reason? Has he given us a reason?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

My Lord is very acquainted with suffering. He is after all the Man of Sorrows.

>>2574261
just adding something to your argument
sorry if you took it the wrong way.

>>2574265
Calling God evil, is evil.

You are evil.

God will judge all evil when the time comes, and this will include you.

I laid out above the reason why evil exists; it is only in this universe where free will moral agents are given options can Love be the highest ideal.

To prevent all evil is to preclude genuine love.

>>2574269
by Adam's sin, all mankind died and was condemned.

That's the bad news.

>>2574192
i wasn't talking about your opinions faggot

>>2574196
ever read the OT?

>>2574272
Gotcha. Thanks.

>>2574153
"Light" is electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye.

"Darkness" is the absence of "Light".


Are we arguing about this, really?

>>2574278
how do you know who will he judge and who will he not maybe this will include you

>>2574281
thats doesnt sound evil to you?

>>2574265
Only way to do that is to turn all of humanity into will-less automatons who do only good. That is the ultimate evil, because it removes from thinking beings the capacity to be free (slavery).

God is working against evil continuously, its the reason you find good people who dont murder you over your house and wife. He will not, however, remove our free-will in order to do it, not erase evil in our hearts without our consent. This is part of why God is good.

>>2574284
old testament ? nope

>>2574278
>Calling God evil, is evil.
christbro here. That is not a convincing argument. Please try better.

>>2574199
i am a theist. i am a christian. so who are you trying to address?

>>2574298
>god is good beacuse he allows evil

the whole christian faith is a paradox

>>2574267
>mfw ignored.

>>2574313
beacuse i never said
>People who do good things in front of other people are not necessarily good in their heart,
but
you can do good things all your life but dont accept god and you go to hell

>>2574270
>>2574267
>>2573847
>>2573747
>>2573578
>>2571824
>>2571548

why do atheists ignore good arguments like these?

>>2574312
>God is good because he created free will
>HUMANITY CHOOSES EVIL
how is this so hard to understand?

please improve your reading comprehension.

>>2574326
beacuse they dont answer the questions or explain anything

>>2574317
>you can do good things all your life but dont accept god and you go to hell
but the fault in that is that it assumes that people that do what can be percieved as good have no ulterior motives.

>>2574330
>god can prevent evil but he doesnt want to

how is this so hard to understand?

>>2574334
they do answer the question though.

Thats like me asking: why does water feel wet
and someone responds: because of our neurons reacting to pressure and temperature in a certain way
and then you going: well that doesn't answer anything.

>>2574340
>god can prevent evil but he doesnt want to
because doing so requires preventing the ability for humanity to think or act independent of God.

see this ignored argument to see what i mean:
>>2573578

>>2574347
what is love?

>>2574347
>because doing so requires preventing the ability for humanity to think or act independent of God.
so what a small price to be payed from preventing all the suffering

>>2574343
>god never does evil stuff
>god does evil stuff beacuse of people doing a rebelion with satan thousands of years ago

often abrahamic religious texts depict god as a being purely of good, but if god created the world with both good and bad in it then god should be observed as a being of both. it's like in east asia they believe pretty much in a balance of the world, which is what god really should be thought of as. i might even stretch to say that satan is part of god and everything has to coexist together.

>>2574290
You keep repeating yourself over and fucking over again.

here, choose.

>darkness existed before god with light inside of it (natural state)
>god came along and took the light form the dark creating all of our problems
Why didn't he leave it the fuck alone
>back to my original point arbitrary as fuck

Therefore darkness is actually a more important entity than god himself, it existed before him. The only thing god didn't create is darkness. We should be worshiping darkness.

OR

God simply created darkness as well.

The implications of the logic that god didn't create something when he created everything is beyond stupidity.

>>2574364
Then get to it Stalin. No one is preventing you from creating your utopia.

>>2574403
light is a physical thing. darkness is a concept.
heat is a physical thing. coldness is a concept.

"darkness" is a concept that humans use to express a physical reality. did god create this concept? i suppose in an indirect way, yes.

>>2574381
>god does evil stuff because of people doing a rebellion with Satan thousands of years ago
again. Humanity does evil shit and God simply allows it. He does not do the evil.

It's like if i let a tree fall as opposed to pushing it. same result but i did not make it fall, i instead allowed it to fall.

>inb4 but God did evil because he allowed humanity to do evil
>inb4inb4 no. God allows evil to happen but is not doing evil nor condones evil
>loop
this argument will go on forever and frankly i'm getting sick of it.

>>2574424
So now your standpoint is
>lol it's not actually real
Great show.

>>2574432
do you submit to my overwhelming power?

>>2574424
You understand the absence of something literally is not nothing? It's still 'something'. Absence is still created.

We are going around in a fucking circle here. You are implying it's impossible for an omnipotent individual to create something without the void of darkness? He can do what ever he wanted, if he created a world with darkness, he wanted fucking darkness.

You cannot argue physical concepts in a metaphysical argument? Are you actually being retarded?

>god didn't create darkness because darkness is the absence of light
>god created everything else though
>the circumstances for light to exist
>the circumstances for darkness to exists
>he didn't create darkness tho
>:^)

He has created everything, therefore he created the physics which upholds your argument. He created the physics which created darkness inside the absence of light.

You are going fucking nowhere, you are still being intellectually dishonest. God created these physics you are trying to use against me.

>>2574326
Those are axioms or assertions, not arguments.

File: riddle-me-this.png (134KB, 970x639px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 970x639px

>>2574447
Riddle me this, Riddler.

If darkness is the absence of light, how can light be separated from something which exists as the absence thereof?

>>2574447
i think that you are arguing for duality of being and the "light" vs. "dark" argument is misguided. simplify it to "energy" vs. "no energy". simplify that to "existence" vs. "no existence".

>>2574482
an argument is an assertion though.
>why do humans sin?
>p1: because they like that which is perverse
p1 is an argument, a point made (sometimes with examples) to explain why something is the way that it is.

>>2574500
You just completely (nicely at that) dodged the part where god is the being who created all these physics.

>>2574504
well, since god is all-powerful, everything exists (and does not exist) at his whim. so... i think we were originally about evil. which side was i on?

It's unreasonable to hold poor god responsible for things outside his control, have a heart, give God a break, he's trying his best with this crappy world and the humans keep ruining it.

God wants everyone to be happy since he loves everyone so much, but you know he can't possibly be everywhere at once, looking out for everyone, sometimes he's so stressed out that some evil slips by, can you even blame him!?

>>2574520
So now you finally agree with me. God created everything physical and metaphysical both darkness and evil.

Even God has a bad day sometimes, when he's had enough of everyone blaspheming him and worshiping Golden Calfs when he's not looking, I can see why he just wants to take it out on some poor sinners or mangy sick kids or dumb broads, they had it coming.

>>2574527
you know that is not the case but you say that just to piss off theists.
No point in arguing with you if you only came here to be an asshole.

>>2574538
>>2574556

>>2574553
>>2574558

>>2574541
only if a non-existent thing needs to be created to not exist.

What really get's Gods goat is when his Chosen People in the USA are zoned out watching TV or doing drugs or having interracial sex that he sends us a little warning, nothin too crazy, maybe an airplane into a skyscraper, maybe a nightclub shooting, maybe a little earthquake to shake things up, let us know who's in charge and to shape up!

>>2574553
you could say that they were asking for it.

>>2574563
>>2574567
>>2574553
>>2574538
>>2574527
posting and responding to yourself so you can jack off to you hatred for christianity and their imaginary God.

I would say you are pathetic, but you are below even that.

Did you ever feel like you want to kiss a boy instead of a girl? Just a little harmless fun, right? Wrong kiddo, guess what. God's got a little surprise waiting for ya. A little trick he likes to call HIV. Wages of sin, right? That'll straighten you out, next time won't be so freewheeling with your affections.

>>2574561
I'm done with you.

This is your standpoint
>God created everything
>except the things which I don't want him to be responsible for
Average christian logic.

ITT:
OP asked THEISTS to answer his question
fedoras then proceded to fuck with everyone
fedoras then claim to win
this is why we can't have nice things
This very related:>>2574032

File: its_not_all_me_bro.png (8KB, 715x196px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 715x196px

>>2574572

Next time you see some quote unquote "evil" in the world, why not instead of blaming Almighty God, blame YOURSELF for being a filthy loathesome human? Yeah, thought not. Oh but God, you say, I try to be a good person and never hurt anyone and care about others! Okay, fair enough. But wait! You didn't go to church last sunday, did you! That's what I thought. Maybe if you'd have PRAYED a little harder growin up you wouldn't have been molested when you were a kid.

>>2574572
Daring to question the beliefs of God's Chosen Southern Baptist 4chan Crew is truly the most fallen depravity yet concocted by this accursed race.

Gabriel Himself will line em up and march these souls straight into God's Loving Pit of Hellfire for such anathema.

File: Untitled.png (48KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 800x600px

>>2574587
nice Photoshop anon.

>>2574574
so... i was for "god didn't create evil"?
i guess i have to conclude that "evil" is shorthand that we humans use for "conditions or actions that increase our separation from god"

did god create those conditions or actions? indirectly, yes. directly, no.

let's not part in anger, friend.

>>2574606
nice straw-man.

>>2574611
Throw him in too!

>>2571083
We need the bad to appreciate the good

File: 1488354241196.jpg (412KB, 2000x1197px) Image search: [Google]

412KB, 2000x1197px

>>2574060
>>2571322
>>2571578
>>2573311
>>2573578
>>2573847
>>2573998
>>2574197
>evil is separation from God
>evil is a result of free will, thus our own making

a,
How about natural disasters?
Illnesses?

b,
What if other people('s evil) hurt us?
Good people hurt by bad people?

c,
How about Satan?
While he also has free will (I guess), why is he, a superior being, allowed to hurt us?

File: 1488919303017.jpg (616KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

616KB, 1920x1080px

>>2575415
>We need the bad to appreciate the good

The point is: many people feel that God could create a perfect world, a Heaven, without this duality, without all the suffering.

While you're saying that bad stuff is needed to appreciate good stuff, it won't answer what the victims can learn from:
- hit by a drunk driver
- having cancer (terminal)
- killed by a suicide bomber
- born with deformity
- dying in a natural disaster
- effected by any kind of evil (while being good)

And God, an omnipotent being, could create a world where free will AND perfection simultaneously exist.
A nice place where every action leads to happiness.

>>2573998
>natural disasters don't exist

>>2571083
>yet another thread where everybody assumes that theist equals monotheist by default

Fucking christardation is a fucking mental illness man.

>>2575808
We've covered this before, anon. Evil, including natural evil only came into the world after the original sin.

>>2574326
Because I was typing all those last night at 1am and everyone is way too late for this shit show. I've completely forgotten what this was even about and I can't be fucked with bibletards anymore

>>2573981
>I'm a pastafarian
Hello 9GAG, please leave now.

Sometimes you need to think from god's point of view. Maybe god is in hell.

>>2574303
The truth works for the Kingdom of God; your false modesty does not.

Woe to him who calls evil good, and good evil.

>>2574294
He will judge the quick and the dead.

Be the quick.

>>2574297
No, not at all. Adam's rebellion against God had permanent repercussions; he lost the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in his body, and he died that very instant.

Lacking that Holy Spirit in him, he could only make children in his own fallen spiritual image. Like you and me, born without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in us.

The good news is that Holy Spirit can be regained; a man can be born again, once in the flesh and once in the Spirit.

>>2574326
Because this is not an intellectual exercise but a spiritual battle, and people believe what they want to believe.

>>2577270
Sounds mystical.

>>2574493
That passage explains why there is day and night; the sun governs the day and the moon governs the night.

>>2574541
Things that are not created things are not created.

Everything that is created has a creator.

These simple truths elude you. How will you bear anything harder?

>>2574574
God created everything that was created.

Not all things are created.

So, so simple.

>>2577300
>>2577292
>implying God is so weak and powerless that he can't create uncreated things

riddle me this poem man

>b-but muh separation from god
>b-but muh free will
God could have prevented evil, satan, hell, damnation, but he chose not to. It's like a doctor, who chooses not to save a patient, even though he can.

>>2575543
Natural disasters God does. He said so, and he is never mistaken, and never wrong, and never lies. It is the crux of this thread, the meaning of "ra" in Isaiah 45:7. Does God create evil? Or does God cause calamities and distress? In this thread, especially with Hebrewbro pointing out the poetry of the Hebrew, God creates both shalom (peace) and anti-shalom (distress, disaster, calamity).

So while a hurricane is a calamity, it is not evil.

Prior to the fall of man, there was no sin in the world, no sickness, illness, pain, suffering, nothing that you hate.

And in the next world, it will be as the created world before the fall.

But you have to opt in to that world in order to see it. The default state is born dead, stay dead, suffer the second death.

Count on being hurt by other people's evil. Count on hurting other people by your evil. What you choose to do about that is on you. But know that all sins are against God; you hurting me is against God.

c) He had free will, used it to rebel against God, and will be endlessly tormented in a lake of fire.

>>2577279
It's a work of God, as opposed to mysticism. Works of God are on a higher plane than any works of angels or men.

>>2577309
Omnipotence allows you to do all things that require power.

Paradoxes are not things that require power in order to accomplish. They are necessarily and artificially constructed as "not-things". Same with the boulder and burrito nonsense.

>>2577366
>higher plane

That's literally textbook mysticism.

>>2577333
Now ask yourself why God is patient and long suffering, and why this creation endures as it does.

File: 1490704598752.png (381KB, 1380x511px) Image search: [Google]

381KB, 1380x511px

>>2571083

>>2577381
>implying that god is bound by paradoxes
No wonder God allows evil, his hands are tied by the rules of logic.

>>2577383
Yes, the counterfeit apes the real. Always. Nobody counterfeits $3 bills.

The works of God as done through Moses and Aaron were on a higher plane than the magicians of the pharaoh's court could counterfeit.

>>2577397
He allows evil to exist for a time being, so that more people can come to a saving knowledge of Christ Jesus, and thus increase the family of God to "many".

And when God says "many", he's usually talking about stars in the sky, or grains of sand on the beach.

>>2577398
Whatever mystic. Enjoy your mystical mysteries.

>>2577408
I will enjoy the wonderful works of my God, as you will experience his wrath.

Our two experiences will be wildly different. Because that's the path you chose.

>>2577400
Poor retarded God, forced by paradoxes and logical categories into working out some roundabout scheme to maximize soul uptake rate over time, shucks, it would be more efficient to just warp in a perfect universe in the first place but Super God didn't want to pony up enough Omnipotence.

>>2574298
So an omnipotent being has limits to what he can and can not create? Should'n and omnipotent being be able to create good and free-willed beings without evil?

>>2573906
I am not that guy, but perhaps God would rather us *experience* all he has created, be it 'good' or 'evil' and do with it what we will. Humans tend to symbolize things in such a fashion. If nothing has inherent meaning, then there is room to attach any meaning we can find. Or, God packed in ALL the possible meanings. Which doesn't make terribly much sense to me but I felt the need to mention that.

This may not be the best phrasing, but perhaps nothing will always become something, or just Not Nothing? To expand on that thought, suffering is something that doesn't 'exist' in a conscious being's mind until they are aware of it. Aware of the fact that they do not enjoy the thing they are experiencing and may experience what we call suffering, though they may not yet have a name for Suffering as a ~concept~.

So, suffering will be eventually unavoidable to any kind of being. There are, theoretically, an infinite number of things that we could suffer from. We conquer one thing, attain a new perspective, or whatever, and still there is another problem that would lay ahead of us.

Which makes me think that God may understand that a lot of things just happen when we suffer. No suffering means no change, no growth. No suffering means there is no joy, or whatever the inverse of Suffering is. We don't experience only suffering, but it allows us to experience both. And since this stagnation does not exist, we change and experience stuff. I say these because if I were held at gun point for an answer to this question this is what I would say. Part of me believes I'm just being arrogant in trying to figure it out.

This is now a tangent. What I said makes me thing of The Egg by Andy Weir. Do you think God was always God, or something else first?

I guess I should mention I don't necessarily believe in God. But I was thinking about the 'God works in mysterious ways' mantra and found myself unsatisfied by it and thought that theists could explain it another way

>>2577415
Good thing for me the galactic universal God doesn't think and act like how a bitter vengeful senile redneck assumes he does.

>>2577417
God's concern is with reality, not with your paradoxes.

>I'm going to go to hell because I love paradoxes just that much.

>>2577422
Yes, of course. Self-imposed limits and natural limits.

Why don't you accept reality as you find it?

>>2577431
He's already revealed what he will do.

You will not enjoy it.

>>2577441
>>Redneck thinks going to go to hell because I banter with him on 4chan

File: Think.png (547KB, 600x800px) Image search: [Google]

547KB, 600x800px

Does God hate pornography and why?
Why does he have something against sexuality?

>>2577454
I think you're going to hell because you have not demonstrated, and do not know, how to avoid going to hell.

>>2577461
Sex is too powerful to be handled outside of holy matrimony, a virgin male and virgin female mating faithfully for life.

That's what sex was designed for, and that's the way it's enjoyed the most.

>>2577452
You'll soon die of old age with revenge in your shriveled heart because of some words on a computer screen. No supernatural anything required, that's the material fact. No wonder you are dumb enough to resort to prophecies.

File: Goldenface.png (223KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

223KB, 300x300px

>>2577469
>sex is too powerful

>>2577463
>I think you're going to hell because you have not demonstrated, and do not know, how to avoid going to hell.

Which mystical cult should I join that can clue me in about the afterlife? The Southern Baptists?

>>2577470
When prophecies are 100% true, it's rational to rely upon them.

When Nostradamus is 8% accurate, it's rational not to rely upon him.

I won't die of old age; the world doesn't have that kind of time left in her.

Today is the day of salvation; you are not promised tomorrow.

>>2577473
Keep watching how it ruins everyone's life who does not keep it contained as intended.

>>2577486
A good Baptist church should be able to show you the way to do, say and believe what Romans 10:9-10 tells you to do, say and believe in order to be saved.

Or of course you could go to Romans 10 and read it for yourself, and ask God to help you do, say and believe what is required of you to enter into salvation.

There's nothing mystical about the spirit world. It's as real as the physical world.