How did such a country with an organized meritocratic bureaucracy,

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I see you moved past
>Why didn't Africa develop?

>>2570940
never modernized

japanese is an exception to this because of high literacy and shit, chinese are dumb as rocks

>>2570940
A country that worth nothing.

Except its people breeding like roaches to make it relevant with muh 1,3 billion

>>2570951
Why didn't Africa develop?

>>2570940
They've done a lot over the millenia, they had one of the largest empires after all. But fuck all after 1000 AD

>>2570940
>never amount to anything in shaping history until the last three or four decades

>>2571042
what did they amount before that considering they had
>organized meritocratic bureaucracy, a wealth of natural resources, a shitload of manpower, and goods that ever

>>2570940
>organized meritocratic bureaucracy,
Didn't that fail because the only thing you needed to pass the exams was spouting confusian bullshit?

>>2570940
>meritocratic bureaucracy
what?
>wealth of natural resources
what? (except coal, maybe)

>>2571099
They shaped east Asian history. You say they didn't shape history, but you are missing the for who part. The Roman Empire didn't do much to shape history for the Chinese.

>>2571122
with all the advantages they had they really did minimal shaping outside of their borders

>>2570940
Nixon opened them up and the US started buying cheap goods. Set up their manufacturing and they stole/reverse engineered intellectual/industrial secrets. Thank you US for waking up a monster.

>>2571144
Have you noticed how large their borders are?

>>2571122
>They shaped east Asian history
They got a bunch of barbarians to pay them tribute and also Japan liked to LARP as the Tang dynasty back in the Heian period, but it's hardly comparable to the impact that Rome left on the Mediterranean.

>>2570962
>japanese is an exception to this because of high literacy and shit
The burgers forced the japs to modernize
which fucked them over a bit in WW2

>>2571114
>can't manage grammar
>can't understand simple words

Moron detected.

>>2571157
>they stole/reverse engineered intellectual/industrial secrets
intellectual property is a meme

>>2571241
>what is buddhism
>what is language
>what is their entire culture in general
The Sino sphere would have taken a lot longer to develop without China.

>>2570962
>japanese is an exception to this because of high literacy and shit
Japan was a lot smaller and had fewer people and was easier to administer than China.

>>2570940
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_equilibrium_trap

tl;dr, they already have everything. And their trade system are almost perfect. So, there were no reason to modernize.

China was never united until the Mongols rape everything an forced them to unite when ot qas all conquered. If anything China owes its state on the world stage to the Khans of Mongol even in the last 100 years china is still trying to fuck it up.

>>2571528
>China was never united until the Mongols
So the Qin, Han, Sui, Tang, and Song dynasties don't count, do they?

>>2571537
Which one of those controled all of China? Because none of those did.

>>2571241
China was the mediterranean

>>2571547
>all of China

explain

>>2571547
They controlled the heartlands of China where the Han Chinese lived. All the Yuan and the Qing did was add a bunch of deserts and mountains with Turks and Tibetans that nobody cares about.

>>2570940
Too busy inventing the compass and sundial n shiet

>>2570940
>How did such a country with an organized meritocratic bureaucracy, a wealth of natural resources, a shitload of manpower, and goods that everybody wanted to trade for,
That is exactly what went wrong.

Stealing from neighbours makes nations better

>>2571241
7 different countries and 1.7 billion people are part of the literally Sinic culture.

Mandarin bureaucracy was extremely corrupt and China has very few natural resources so the premises are false

>>2571629
>7 different countries
China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Vietnam. What's the seventh?

>and 1.7 billion people
Of which 1.3 billion are from inside China itself so they don't really count.

>>2571547
>Brits made the United States united because the US 2016 and US 1787 don't have the same borders
Great logic!

>China
What is this thing you talk about?
Depending on your definition you could be correct or wrong.
Based upon the modern accepted definition of China, you are wrong.

Also, to answer your question, the Han.

>>2571641
>Can't use google
Singapore

>>2570940
China always viewed itself as the center of the world, there was never a need to try and enlighten the world.

>>2571641
>Of which 1.3 billion are from inside China itself so they don't really count.

I bet you and OP would not have made this thread if China today was separated into 5 separate Chinese states.

China is a civilization masquerading as a nation.

>>2571029
the joke is that in many parts it did. West Africa was on par with Europe until the Rennaisance, which didn't reach it because of the Muslim intellectual filter of North Africa. The Kongo kingdom actually converted to Christianity, and there's a pretty famous letter the king wrote to the king of Spain about recognizing the Kongo king's legitimacy as a fellow brother in Christ. The Ethiopians had an empire, the Zulus had an empire, the entire East African coast was alive with trade. Africa did develop, it just stopped after the europeans started choking it off, and only restarted when the Europeans colonized and began building themselves.

>>2571144
Their borders are geographical tho. A desert to the west, mountains to the southwest, impassable jungle to the south, ocean to the east, endless plans to the north and northwest

>>2571650
As did literally everyone before the Enlightenment.

China stagnating for far more complex reasons than the shit memes spewed here daily.

>>2571656
>This
Kind of like how America is really an empire, except in this case there are multiple very different language and culture groups at play, and the languages show no signs of disappearing. Manchuria, Hangzhou, Canton, Xiangqi and whatever you call central China could be reasonably seperated out as distinct units.

>>2570940
Would China have been better if the japanese conquered it centuries ago?

>>2570940
the Taiping rebellion for one

>>2571658
>the Zulus had an empire
Just having an empire doesn't make you developed. The Achaemenid Persian empire was more "developed" than the Zulus.

>>2571672
True, but the zulus didn't have a reliable dual river system civilization to emulate. It was the first imperial project in its region, and they managed some incredible shit considering that.

>>2571656
>if China today was separated into 5 separate Chinese states
I can only imagine that coming about if the imperial powers had decided to invade and carve up Qing China into colonies for themselves and these colonies were granted independence separately. But (perhaps excluding Tibet and Xinjiang) they would probably just decide to federalize anyway, because the meme of unity following division is too strong in Chinese history.

>>2571688
I think he only meant
>If the borders reflected the cultural realities of the nation

>>2571669
Japan would have been better if China occupied it.

Wouldn't be cucked by Americans, full of autistic otaku loli fuckers, and dying out because people don't have sex.

>>2571241

the vietnamese, korean and japanese owe much more to China than the whole southern and eastern mediterranean to Rome.

>>2571688
>>2571668
>>2571690
My point is that if China was 50+ states of 10 million people (Europe) instead of one giant 1.4 billion person blob, it would most likely be considered extremely culturally and scientfically relevant by OP and this idiot>>2571641

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>>2571703
>if China was 50+ states of 10 million people (Europe) instead of one giant 1.4 billion person blob
Maybe just the ones that correspond to the richest and most developed eastern provinces. Nobody would give a shit about those poorfags out west.

>>2571698
Eastern Mediterranean owed a lot to Rome, it just got overwritten by the Muslim conquests.

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>>2571672
The Zulus were pretty fucking cool desu
They remind me of the early Irish, with their cattle-based wealth system and highly militarised clan society

>>2571751
when will landlocked cucks ever learn?
>t. island dweller

>>2571852
Except the Zulus weren't niggers

>>2571751
>tfw you realize 50% of Chinese live in rural areas and 30% work on farms in 2015

>>2571878

t. Hainan

>>2571895
The hukou system artificially regulates the rural to urban migration to prevent public services collapsing under mass influx of country bumpkins. But the so-called ghost cities are being built now in anticipation of them moving in the future.

>>2571884
They also couldn't use guns for shit, got btfo by anglos and never really got their own country

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>>2571658
>on par with europe til the renaissance
oh please
they had nothing on the scale of european medieval monumentalism. Where is their equivalent of the cologne cathedral? I don't buy into the africa had no development meme but it never was in the same, even during the medieval era.

>>2571698
>japanese owe much more to China

They already paid that at Nanjing

becoz they're fake

>>2570940
The thing with China troughout history has been that their view of everyone else has been really ethnosentristic. They really felt they were superior compared to everyone else, and didn't feel the need to properly work together with for example europeans, because they felt like they already had the ultimate system and did not need any output from lesser civilizations. Even when europeans had clearly better and stronger civilizations, chinese kept their ethnosentric views. China did have an effect on Asia, but in their eyes they didn't have a reason to expand further as their empire was quite big.

>>2571965
Different needs. Of course they wouldn't have cathedrals if they didn't worship in cathedrals at all.

>>2571932
Anon they did use guns but they couldn't get them in ample amounts of them.

>>2571884
Why do you call them niggers. Ffs that word used to have a fucking meaning to it. It's like what cuck turned into.

>>2571690
Where would you draw up the borders for a hypothetical split up china that reflect the cultural realities? I guess Xinjiang, Tibet, and Inner Mongolia would be their own separate ethnostates but that would still leave over a billion people in what is left of China.

>>2571029
They did. Rome's North Africa holdings were more productive than Italy.

>>2571644
>Based upon the modern accepted definition of China, you are wrong.
What modern accepted definition? You mean the current borders of the PRC? Nobody before the Mongols even came close.

>>2570962
>>2570962
Bup

>>2570951
>What are filenames

>>2570940
They were incredibly important. However, if you are asking how they stagnated was getting the ass end of trade following the fall of the Song dynasty. The empire stopped trade for goods and instead had an autistic obsession with trading for silver. Thus, the mining and inflation in the Americas ruined them because they valued their whole economy around one currency. The military weakness of the trade-savvy Song and financial collapse of the Ming from inflation led the Chinese to reject modernization and mechanization instead of adopt it. This made sense from an administrative point of view, but it bit them in the ass.

TLDR: Unlucky at trade, lucky at life.

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>>2570962
>japanese is an exception to this because of high literacy and shit, chinese are dumb as rocks
>China had a scholarly class running the country for god knows how long.
>Japan just gits lerned of Boo-ro-cracy during the 17th century.

>>2570940
Nomads. See Russia and the Middle East after each migration wave.

>>2575177
Why were they so obsessed with silver?

>>2575278
Silver is shiny and expensive.

>>2575177
Not to mention they lost metric fuck tons of silver as war compensation for losing wars consistently for over 50 years

>>2575278
China had no natural precious metals, and the Ming required all taxes to be paid in silver. This massive demand is actually what fed Asian colonization by Europeans in the 15-1600's.

>>2571241
Thing is that Rome died while china still lives.
Imagine A scenario where China divides. It would be much like what happened to Europe (talking about an imperial culture that gives birth to new populous countries)I presume. China is still recovering from the ''getting recked by guns and ships'' which happened to pretty much the whole world. Sea people I tell ya.

Welp history ends in 1992 so I know nothing of the future.

>>2575525
"china" still lives

define what part of china still lives.
as the nation it was in the past? hell no, Mao saw to that.
as a peoples that have managed to mostly survive the test of time and maintain their culture into the modern age? certainly. however, in this sense you can still argue that Rome didn't die either.

>>2575469
>China had no natural precious metals
Bruh, the abundance of Gold in China is the reason why it's not as hot as silver for le Chings.

>>2575540
>as a peoples that have managed to mostly survive the test of time and maintain their culture into the modern age? certainly. however, in this sense you can still argue that Rome didn't die either.
Nah. China doesn't have a bunch of countries screeching and yelling to each other that it is the real China.

Unless of course you include the stupid One China argument...between legit Chinese people.

>>2575546
>Thinking of ancient times, before the Qin and Han dynasties, seen and recorded gold rewards or transactions frequently ranged from a few dozen to 100 jin (a jin is about 16.1 troy ounces). After the Han Dynasty, this level of abundance was never seen again. There are two theories regarding this occurrence. The first says that what the ancients so-called gold was actually copper and not really gold. The second theory is that the previous riches of the ancients were frequently hidden by their owners in the chaos that surrounded the collapse of the Han Dynasty (about 220 AD). According to this theory, most of the pre-Han gold disappeared or was hidden underground. No matter what you believe, it is a fact that after the Han Dynasty the amount of gold in China has continuously been very little.

http://chinagoldnews.blogspot.com/2008/05/chinas-gold-eternal-treasure-by-sang.html?m=1

I thought they had very little. However, if you have a better source I'd be happy to be informed.

>>2575558
Ignore my shitty grammar.

What I meant abundance of gold relative to silver. There's more gold than silver in Chinkdom. Not that gold itself was everywhere.

Interesting though that for all it's rarity, Gold is below Jade in preciousness for the Chinese.

>>2571144
that's like saying the Roman Empire did minimal shaping outside of their borders, China had more than 1/4 of the world's population living in a single empire for thousands of years

>>2575525
>Thing is that Rome died

No, Rome is in Italy

>>2575571
That's true, sorry for my misinterpretation. This is simply conjecture, but maybe jade was seen as more valuable because it can only be cut once while gold and silver can be reforged.

>>2575571
>Jade was prized for its hardness, durability, musical qualities, and beauty.
>In particular, its subtle, translucent colors and protective qualities caused it to become associated with Chinese conceptions of the soul and immortality.
>Various myths about jade's mystical origins - some said it was fashioned by thunder and captured the force of the heavens, others that it was crystallised moonlight
>By the Han dynasty, the royal family and prominent lords were buried entirely ensheathed in jade burial suits sewn in gold thread, on the idea that it would preserve the body and the souls attached to it. Jade was also thought to combat fatigue in the living.
>玉不琢 不成器 is one of the well-known three letter sayings in China, "Jade, without chiseling, cannot become a useful object," referring to the fact that a person cannot be a talented person without learning. Jade, considered to be one of the most valuable stones, is used in the analogy for a person.
>There is another saying, "黃金有價玉無價," which translates to "Gold is valuable, jade is invaluable".

tl;dr it was harder and they thought looked nicer than gold

>>2575799
Huh, that's cool.

>>2575525
>ancient China's culture still existed after the cultural revolution

Mao ruined everything

>>2570940
meritocracy led to cheating in tests led to not actually learning anything led to a bunch of damn idiots

>>2571895
That's a good thing you dumbo

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>>2571547
They WERE China, the country simply changed borders throughout history. Even in recent times there are large parts of the country which are inhabited mostly by non-ethnically Chinese peoples, like Tibetans or Uyghurs (pic related).

>>2576532
Most of those were Qing conquests.

>>2572125
[Citations needed]

*ring ring ring* China meme #2154

"Chinese" or "China" wasn't even a concept until the Southern Song (much like India wasn't a concept until the 1800's) and "Han" didn't even appear in the lexicon until the 1400's.

"Ethnicty" wasn't a concept until recent centuries as well. 'Chinese' in the Han/Tang/Song was "do you know a Chinese language and follow Chinese culture. Genetics and ethnicity had little to nothing to do with Chineseness.

>>2574841
The Tang had suzerainty over all modern PRC territory. Just because it isn't marked on a map and occupied by their soldiers doesn't mean the Tang didn't have effective control of Tibet/Taiwan in the 660's (at their peak).

Furthermore, the Tang/Early Song had control over the territory where 98% of Chinese live.

>>2575177
>The empire stopped trade for goods

Sorry to burst your meme but this never happened for any meaningful amount of time.

>>2575469
China has//had tons of gold

Furthermore, Ming inflation was directly caused by the overprinting of money. Where the fuck do you get this "only traded with silver" meme from?

Fuck this dogshit board

>>2575931
Modern Western consumerism did far more to kill ancient Chinese culture than Mao ever could.

>>2575540
>as the nation it was in the past? hell no, Mao saw to that.

Lol because 1948 Chinese culture and Emperor Wu of Han-era Chinese culture are the same.

I might mention to you that China's culture has been "destroyed" far more by foreign invasions/civil war/autistic imperial decrees than Mao's Cultural Autism in the urban centers.
Your average rural Sichuan chinese starving farmer in 1965 and your average Sichuan chinese starving farmer in 1975 were very very very similar.

Muh
>cultural revolution destroyed all chinese culturememe
is so tiresome to read spouted here on this piece of shit board each day.

>>2576878
Emperor Wu of Han conquered Tibet. So did the Tang, Ming, and Yuan.

Tang conquered Xinjiang as well. So did the Han, although less so.

>>2577076
>is so tiresome to read spouted here on this piece of shit board each day.

You could do other jobs, like make more cheap iphones for us

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>>2577110
>cheap
>iphones

>>2577121
Gonna need a source

>>2570940
>never amount to anything in shaping history until the last three or four decades

First of all, the question you ask or the way you ask such question is wrong. China is very important to the world in ancient times(they still are now in case you haven't notice it), especially to East Asia, they basically "shape" the whole East Asia civilizations, they're the mother of East Asia civilizations. Agriculture, technologies, architectures, languages, writing system, customs...etc, almost every things you see there have some roots in China. Most of all, China used to be the power center of east Asia, a large mount of east Asia history are revolved around China(and her neighbors of course).

Maybe what you want to ask is why or how China stagnated and lost to European after 19th century, well, that's a big question, you have to find out yourself, I'm not gonna spoofed your lazy ass.

>>2577204
How and Why questions are immediate redflags on this board.

>>2573669
mudhuts
even the castles walls and mosques
all mud
an empire of shit basically

>>2577632
Hey they didnt "need" stone walls either.
Or anything remotely close to the grandure of any European civilisation from the middle ages, let alone the Renaissance. This meme is we wuz kings tier.

>>2577632
Yeah it's pretty cool.

>>2571144
Rome didn't do a whole lot outside its borders.

I mean those Sassanids sure took to Christianity amiright?

>>2577052
>>2575558
No.
>Silver, minted by the Spaniards in their new territories in the Americas eventually travels across the Pacific, through Manila, and into China as the commodity the Europeans can trade for the goods they seek from China (the Spanish or "Mexican dollar").
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/main_pop/kpct/kp_ming.htm

>>2577028
It happened during the reign of Hongwu though.

>>2571241
>hardly comparable to the impact that Rome left on the Mediterranean.
>Every culture in the Far East is in some shape way or form derived from Chinese culture.
>Right up until the 1500s every peoples in the region used Chinese Script for their writing.
>Confucian government ethics was disseminated across the region.
>Millions of peoples were absorbed and integrated into the main Chinese culture and became ethnically Han.

>>2577093
>Tang conquered Xinjiang as well. So did the Han, although less so

Yeah and then they lost control of it to other empires.

The fact that most of China's modern borders are a result of Mongol and Manchu conquests shows how much Han Chinese suck at warfare. China wouldn't even control Xinjiang today if Mongol and Manchu bannermen hadn't genocided the Dzungars.

Stagnation caused by culture.

Chinese thought they were the center of all creation. That there was nothing worth exploring or trading for. that everything is just fine the way it is.

One time they built a huge exploration fleet. They get all the way to Africa and Indonesia. Then the next emperor orders it all destroyed.

>>2574781
During a veritable sliver of that point in history

>>2571114
They had and have every mineral, every foodstuff, every natural resource you can think of and are finding more in the unspoiled jungles and mountains

>>2578477
>One time they built a huge exploration fleet. They get all the way to Africa and Indonesia. Then the next emperor orders it all destroyed.
It was destroyed because it was a gigantic waste of money, whose main purpose was to simply announce to the former tributaries that China was back in business in as loud and prestigious a way as possible with a very poor ROI.

>>2578771
>every mineral and foodstuff
I think you're thinking about India friendo.

>>2578041
List of Roman-influenced cultures
>Italy
>France
>Spain
>Portugal
>England
>Germany
>Austria
>Switzerland
>Greece
>Belgium
>Turkey
>the entirety of Christiendom

List of Chinese-influenced cultures
>China
>Japan
>North/South Korea
>Vietnam
>Singapore

>>2578877
>population of those countries errs on the far East size

Almost as if China has a very large territory and population.

>>2578931
>Chinese people born into China follow Chinese culture
Wow, such an accomplishment.

>>2579095
>Romantic people born into Roman Territories follow Roman culture

It is incredible just how long the Chinky Choos have kept a centralized state. They are the world's best example of a civilization.

>>2579104
Did those people in the provinces of the Roman empire identify as Romans the way the Chinese consider themselves Chinese?

>>2579104
>Chinky Choos have kept a centralized state
Chink often caused civil war and destroyed themselves.
Chinese didn't keep centralized but were ignored by others.

Pacific Ocean was dangerous sea until 19th century so China was important region for far-east nations.

>>2571251
It didn't fuck them up. They were posed to be the greatest power in the pacific, they just got too greedy

>>2578877

>the entirety of Christiendom

>roman influenced

fucking hell

>>2579402

Unlike Europe China didn't balkanize into "Holy Confucian China" and 10 other meme states that never united before the (((((((EU))))))

>>2580292
No, but it did turn into the Three Kingdoms, then later the Northern and Southern Dynasties, and then later the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms".

>>2580432

And Europe never again united back into the Roman Empire with all of it's past territories, unlike China.

>>2580445
Difference is Europe is actually made up of different people with different culture and language unlike the Chinese borg.

>>2581041
China had many different languages for a very long time.

>>2581041
>>2581044
It also has multiple distinct ethnicities, tell me a Southern Chinaman looks like a Northerner

>>2581041
>I know jack shit about ancient China and think that there were no cultural differences because they all look the same

Toppest of keks. If you know nothing about history then just fuck off.

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>>2581047
>tell me a Southern Chinaman looks like a Northerner

Yes, both loved to shit on the streets

Eat dogs and other bizarre foods like eggs boiled in urine.

Big mouthed, dirty looking.

>>2581082
>tell me a Southern European looks like a Northerner

>Yes, both loved to shit on the streets

>Eat rats and other bizarre foods like barbaqued animal head.

>Big mouthed, dirty looking.

But you wouldn't say that, because you're /pol/. GTFO with your bullshit.

>>2575213
The Chinese had a small group of educated people through its history, but Japan had a broad base of educated people. Even before modernisation kicked into full gear, the Japanese loved the printing press.

Sidenote that doesn't totally relate to this thread: The Japanese care more about quality while the Chinese are always trying to get the best profit margin. In this case, it's a deeply cultural difference that lent the Japanese to master Smithian economics while the Chinese failed trying to pull off old-fashion mercantile shit.

>>2578877
You forgot Mongolia and Turkestan

>>2581182
I imagine it's far easier to educate the population of a small island nation like Japan than a place as huge as China with zillions of poor as shit rice farmers.

>>2577139
Please

>>2571751

where's Taiwan...

>>2574781
North Africa isn't Africa in this context. North Africa was always semites and whites, recently arabs.

Must suck to be so useless you have to go into an entirely different world to usurp we wuz kangz creds for your race entirely predicated on ignorance of history.

These guys are gonna destroy earth as we know it, watch.

>>2583173
>North Africa isn't Africa
Really reaching there.

>>2571029
They did. They used to have a lot of very wealthy nations.

>>2584454
Not the anon but north africa is not africa in any context except geography

So we're all in agreement that China looks better on a map with Tibet annexed than without.

>>2585326
>[geographically defined part] of [geographical descriptor] is not a part of [geographical descriptor] in any context except geography
Uh.

>>2570940

The larger you are, the more you have to look inwards. Basically your inwards are so big that they take all of your attention.

wonder how long china would have lasted if it was located next to europe

>>2571658
>West Africa was on par with Europe until the Rennaisance
Are you serious or just an abysmal moron

>>2573669
Please they could have built mosques,castles or palaces.Nothing about west africa was in par with the shittiest region in Europe ever.The only that they achieved was mining some gold and that's it

>>2574781
>Rome's North Africa holdings were more productive than Italy
Only Egypt.Modern Morocco,Lybia,Tunis or Argelia were pretty backwater regions of the empire

>>2586002
They would probably have gotten eaten up by Alexander's empire.

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>>2570940
China map looks like a erect micropenis with a testicle that is bigger then the other.

>>2571656
Nation != State

China's status as a nation, if questionable before the Cultural Revolution, became certain in its aftermath.

>>2587155
How did the cultural revolution create the Chinese nation? All it did was fuck a bunch of shit up and purge the educated class until the military finally put a stop to it, then all the kids got sent to the countryside to do backbreaking manual work as "reeducation".

>>2587155
When the Republic was founded they had the bright idea of promoting it as a multi-ethnic state of five major ethnicities - Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan. Imagine if each of those had instead gotten their own state.

>>2587127
That's the Qing Dynasty map. These days it's missing Mongolia.