How did Communists in America and the West react to the collapse

They asked themselves simple "should we still be communist?"
The Canadian and the Americans reaffirmed marxist-leninism, weirdly, some European parties switched to social democracy or eurocommunism, and other smaller parties of course just disbanded.

How did the Russians managed to get their asses kicked by the Finns, despite defeating the Nazi war machine?

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"pssh, nothing personnel; we will try 'real communism' in America"

thats when the "wasn't real communism" myth started.

>>2564559
Stalin purged all their competent generals and it was before the UK and US started sending them all the supplies they needed.

>>2564571
It actually wasn't though.

Real communism wouldn't've failed.

>>2564578
don't make me post that gif

>>2564591
What gif?

>>2564593
The Spongebob one that's been disproved more times than /pol/tards care to notice.

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>>2564601

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>>2564431
They started calling themselves "democratic socialists"

uesful idiots cried in dismay.

one became a senator from vermont

the rest became "liberals, progressives, social democrats, etc" and worked on bringing down the west.

>>2564571
t. don't know shit about the history of leftism

There have always been tankies and anti-tankies. Each side reacted as you would expect. I remember Chomsky hoped for the soviet union would fall and was shited on by tankies.

>>2564601
>>2564593
I meant the communismball thing with the scrolling text but that works too

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>>2564638
I know its track record is pretty bad

>>2564657
Ebin, my professional memester anon.
The soviet union and all the experiments that derive from it have had massive opposition inside leftism since its inception, whether you like it or not.

>>2564657
>Russian Federation and North Korea
Terrible bait

>>2564431

The majority of American and Western Communists denounced the Soviet Union's Bureaucratic Tyranny as a corruption of Marxist philosophy

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>>2564690
>i-it wasn't real communism

you are a living stereotype

>>2564700
You're not even trying are you?

>>2564700
>I don't need arguments, I have meme pics!

>>2564700
>Russian federation
>communism

you dense motherfucker

>>2564650
He should have been, reformed soviet union would have been a much better result than the world today.

>>2564431
They looked at the misery and chaos they had caused and promptly vowed to TRY IT AGAIN FOR REAL THIS TIME

>>2564722
I didn't make the picture but its not hard to guess what they meant.

>>2564700
>>2564657
>>2564651
>>2564606

Marx stated that Communism comes when infrastructure and efficiency is so high that the state withers away, seeing as how it is no longer necessary.

Marx's communism is anarcho-communism.


It pisses me off how often people confuse socialism with communism.

(I'm neither socialist nor communist btw)

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>>2564578

Communism fails because it's extremely difficult to introduce "real Communism"

Communism depends on a strong central state in the beginning to enforce sharing (because nobody wants to share unless it's forced), and all the power and resources of the powerful state will almost always end in corrupt autocracies that want more and more power.

And no, Anercho-communism/socialism is even less realistic if it involves a population of more than 100

>>2564743
>strong central state in the beginning to enforce sharing

So communism is that annoying mom in the playground diligently making sure everyone gets equal slide time

I hate annoying moms

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>>2564741

The elites of the state don't want to wither away; they want to stay relevant and keep power. It's unavoidable greed in the most human and basic form.

That's when the secret police and "gulags" start to come in and "real communism" starts to change a la Animal Farm.

>>2564743
"the state should enforce sharing"
t. Pyotr "I want a centralized vanguardist authoritarian state" Kropotkin

>>2564759
>That's when the secret police and "gulags" start to come in and "real communism" starts to change a la Animal Farm.
This is the typical "communism turned wrong due to some inherent issues" bullshit myth. The bolsheviks created the cheka right after gaining power, it wasn't the consequence of some "unavoidable greed" that hadn't been taken into account.

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>>2564741
>(I'm neither socialist nor communist btw)
t. pictured

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>>2564780

Create a suppressive police force immiediately after a successful communist revolution or 50 years later, it still does show that people in power wants more power.

Question for your died red commie shills.

Why should the world give you one more chance?

You have has so many chances and no great success.

>>2564790
They are just roleplaying dude. Don't take them seriously.

>>2564789
Interpret it however you want, but the sequence you described is wrong. Bolsheviks got into power and did exactly what they intended to do, they didn't magically turn evil do to greed.

>>2564804
due*

>>2564804

What? Okay we both agree it's not magic that turns communist states into oppressive autocracies.

Please then, tell my what caused the Bolsheviks turn revolutionary Russia into a corrupt and oppressive autocratic state?

>>2564811
They were an oppressive autocratic vanguard party, that's the point.

>>2564816

What exactly is an "vanguard party"? I'm not familiar with the vocabulary used by the opposite end of the political spectrum.

>>2564828
The party to lead the masses into revolution.

>>2564559
a number of factors
>stalin had just purged the officer corps of its best and brightest
>Finland had a civil war after ww1 like Russia but unlike Russia the whites won, the russians thought they could capitalize on residual bad feelings from former reds to get a fifth collumn but this did not happen at all and the Finns came together 100%
>the original plan was just to use superior firepower and manpower to overwhelm the defensive line on the karelian isthmus but Stalin rejected this as not being flashy enough since he wanted to show the world he could do blitzkrieg too
>come up with a second plan that has them invade the whole country at once, its ridiculously overcomplicated and spreads resources too thin, the middle group gets almost completely annihilated
>want to show off their flashy new tanks which were every bit as good as the german ones in 1939 but there are only a handful of narrow dirt roads and everything else is dense forest
>as soon as lead tank in column gets knocked out the road is blocked and if the rear tank gets knocked out too they can't retreat
>can't go off road without ski infantry because the snow drifts are 10 feet high
>only around 4 hours of sunlight a day, worst winter in atleast 40 years, it gets so cold that the lubricants the soviets were using for their rifles freeze and the guns become inoperable after firing a single shot

its really an incredible story because the finns weren't just massively outgunned they also had a far less modern military. They really did themselves no favors by having been reluctant to adopt armor over cavalry. If the Finns had had just a handfull of tanks the mobile fire support would have gone a long way. As it stood they basically had to isolate pockets of russians by blocking roads and then wait for them to starve to death. There's this idea that the Russians are masters of fighting in winter, but that's only because they learned some very hard lessons about sub-arctic warfare from the Finns

>>2564828
The authoritarian brand of "marxists" wanted a group of enlightened individuals to lead and govern the retarded masses (aka the opposite of socialism). They won in russia.

>>2564816

>communists conveniently disowning communists that ended up being oppressive

kek the mental gymnastics of commies are real

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>>2564764
how do you enforce wealth redistribution without someone to mandate it with force

>>2564828
Then why are you trying to discuss the Russian revolution if you don't know shit about it?

>literally fail to meet the definition of communism
>still have people argue you were communist on the basis of the fact it was one of your long term goals

just because i want to be a scotsman doesn't suddenly make me a scotsman, doubly so if i live in Wisconsin with Persian ancestry. this is true even if i start to label myself as a scotsman due to my long-term goal.

>>2564849
>ended up being oppressive
Again, that's the point, they didn't "end up being oppressive". They were oppressive since the beggining, including against communists.

>>2564851
How do you enforce private wealth without state enforced violence against the dispossessed?

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>>2564841
>>2564848

So communism needs a powerful and potentially dangerous force to topple the establishment?

Fight fire with fire? Well it's clear in historical hindsight that the whole house burned down in the process.

Communism succeeds only if the vast majority agrees to share. That's why socially-cohesive states like smaller European countries and Singapore had more success with socialist policies.

Communism that are born from bloody civil wars and powerful "vanguard parties" and later powerful states almost always end up with problems.

>>2564864
>enforce private wealth without state enforced violence against the dispossessed?
you pay someone to shoot the hobos if they try to take your shit
this is the reason even anarcho capitalism is more grounded in reality than anarcho communism

>>2564876
>So communism needs a powerful and potentially dangerous force to topple the establishment?
Just like Republicanism.

>>2564877
>pay someone to shoot the hobos
>gets paid more by the hobos and shoots you instead

ancap paradise

>>2564876
>So communism needs a powerful and potentially dangerous force to topple the establishment?
That's the interpretation of the minority that are vanguardists.
The success of socialist experiments has been in direct correlation to the degree of their decentralization and anti authoritarianism.

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>>2564889
>not just nuking the hobos

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>>2564864

In Capitalism, society just says "haha you suck" and leave the "dispossessed" in the dust. There is no state-enforced violence (there kinda is with laws, but you're over exaggerating).

State communism violently seize everything, get a cut of the sharing (as in 99%), and give out scraps for everyone to share.

>>2564897
Ah, yes, and the dispossessed accept to starve because they're retarded, not because of the threat of violence from the police. Concentrated distribution of wealth is 100% enforced through violence.
And who is defending "state communism"?

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>>2564895

Communism truly succeeds only if everyone agrees to share. I don't know how decentralization helps socialism.

How are you going to introduce communism/socialism in America if, let's say, 50% of Americans don't want to share? "Decentralize" the state? Then how are you going to make gun-toting far-right Christians open up their wallet?

You can't without force and an Autocratic communist/socialist state and police. Let's hope that the strong state remains uncorrupt, but that's not going to happen.

>>2564860
It's Marxism-Leninism they refer to as failed communism, this problem would be solved if people bothered to check basic definitions.

>>2564910

What threat of violence? Does the police bar unemployed people from applying for jobs?

>>2564922
>How are you going to introduce communism/socialism in America if, let's say, 50% of Americans don't want to share?
>If you didn't want to join the collective you were given some land but only as much as you could work yourself. You were not allowed to employ workers. Not only production was affected, distribution was on the basis of what people needed. In many areas money was abolished. People come to the collective store (often churches which had been turned into warehouses) and got what was available. If there were shortages rationing would be introduced to ensure that everyone got their fair share. But it was usually the case that increased production under the new system eliminated shortages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

>>2564910
do you suddenly think people will band together and redistribute the wealth for everyone?
no they will band together in smaller groups to try and keep the wealth for themselves because humans are instinctually individualistic and self perserving
there is no larger proletariat, a class is not a homogeneous entity like an ant colony

>>2564936
>try to go into a factory to manufacture goods
>get arrested for trespassing
Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all. – Adam Smith

>>2564936
Ebin.

>>2564939
>invaded and taken back by nationalists
you're not helping your argument

>>2564944
My only arguments in this thread are:
1. The soviet union didn't suddenly turn to shit due to egoism, human nature, greed, or whatever, it was a perfect materialization of the shit ideas of bolsheviks
2. Capitalism is enforced by violence
If you think communism is impossible due to human nature that's fine, I just object to pretending the soviet union is an example.

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>>2564939

>specific special snowflake example that lasted too short to see the long-term effects of Communism

1. Okay I did say that it works better in socially-cohesive and smaller states.

Try the same shit in France, Russia, or America. It won't last even 3 years.

2. I want longer examples! You either die young as a hero or live long enough to become the villain. If Hitler died in 1939, besides Antisemitism people would view Hitler's legacy favorably.

>>2564962
ok sorry i got in the thread late

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>>2564962

So every failed communist state in existence was just another bolshevik-type mishap?

How very convenient for you.

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>>2564962

You never disproved the human nature argument.

You just said "muh bolshevism" and used that to explain how every communist state failed one way or another.

>>2564966
There aren't longer examples of libertarian socialism. Keep an eye on rojava if you want, although there isn't much info about it going around. But, again, it's pretty evident that how successful the experiment is is heavily correlated with its non authoritarian non vanguardist nature (North Korea is more authoritarian than the soviet union and its derivatives were, which were more authoritarian than yugoslavia, which was more authoritarian than revolutionary spain).

>>2564978
>So every failed communist state in existence was just another bolshevik-type mishap?
What "communist state" are you referring to?
inb4 mentions explicitly leninist states

>>2564994

Because we don't really have any longer examples to debate over, let's just agree to halt this debate.

We're both going into theory/speculation land.

>>2564741
>infrastructure being competent
That will never exist with current infrastructure, lack of a living landscape and sprawling roads and devolpment fragmenting any chance at one, industrial agriculture is running out of arable land, "best agricultural practice" Acidifies soil, depletes soil carbon, while topsoil erodes away. Water tables are running dry and domesticated land is at %43 which is way over budget if we want the earth systems entropy to be constrained. Agriculture fosters an astonishing lack of biodiversty in crops and their environment, which is a huge problem, blights! Along with the mass extinction events of the anthropocene eroding biodiversty which now lacks the complexity and habitat to rebuild itself with out immediate teleological(human) help.
cites while highly connected are not capable of sustaining themselves by their own means and will suffer significantly from the urban heat island effect and resource scarcity. without resources from the devolping world global trade will collapse inevitably.
our oceans need to be left largely unexploited for a long while to recover but they are in nearly the same shape as the terrestrial biosphere and is getting hit the hardest.
Anyways if anyone wanted to fix our infrastructure they need to try again from a different angle, shit man
i don't think marxist utopia will ever happen, some kind of ecological-mutualism makes more sense

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>>2564606

>elected a government to seize the means the means of production

hahahaha

>>2564999
Fair enough.

>>2564998

Sigh. If you want to be passive-aggressive and make the "I'm not talking about Leninist communism" defense, then so be it.

We are now talking about two different things so I'm going to stop here.

>>2564607
this. dont be fooled.

>>2564780

>bolsheviks created the cheka
>created

Yeah so you prove that it isnt a problem of communism, its a part of its implementation.

>>2565003

Any utopia is practically impossible.

>>2565013
How is it passive-aggressive? Your post implied that saying that "every failed communist state in existence was just another bolshevik-type mishap" was some kind of ridiculous idea, but those states are explicitly bolshevik/leninist inspired.

>>2564607
Democratic socialists are capitalists, democratic means free market.

>>2565032
sure it does, comrade. *wink*

>>2565017

Nobody is really arguing that communism sucks. We're arguing over whether communism can be realistically implemented and maintained.

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>>2565036
Let me speak ur language, buddy

>>2565032

>democratic means free market.

No it doesn't. It means 51 percent of the country decides what to do about the other 49 percent's property.

>>2564700
The norks literally removed every mention of communism from their constitution
they're pretty open about not working towards communism

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>>2565032

>taking labels at face value

>>2565054
from the documentaries i've seen from inside north korea. They describe them selves as socialist until real communism can be implemented.

>>2565043
who sez it has to be realistic
aim for the stars and you'll at least get to space

>>2564780
Would a russian state really be a russian state if it did not have secret police

>>2564607
>>2565032
Sanders is a Social Democrat.

I don't care what he calls himself, the platform he ran on was social-democratic (kind capitalism with a pretty single-payer healthcare system and everything) not democratic socialism (means of production, workers, ownership thereof, you get the idea.)

>>2565070

Every state in this world has a secret police in one form or another

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>>2565052
>Property

>>2565075
Too bad that didn't translate well

>>2565062
Could you link such

>>2565084
now you've reminded me of that fascist video using the song about the anarchists who got death-penalty'd for a crime they probably didn't actually do.

goddamn we live in a crazy world.

>>2565079
So then what's the problem with the cheka

>>2564876
Is that Godzilla made out of scorpions?

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>>2565094

They are just less subtle about it.

>Oh no secret oppressive police exists also in capitalistic countries?! Then Capitalism sucks too. Tu quoque! Tu quoque!

Nope. True democratic capitalism was never tried ;)

>>2565156
I have not even said capitalism is bad
only that the cheka was rad

>>2565124

cockroaches because they are cheaper

>>2565165

Oh I thought you were the guy I was debating with.

>>2565032
Democratic Socialism is still Socialist, Just a Non-Authoritarian Variety

Sanders ran as a Social Democrat, which is just regulated Capitalism really. Historically, SocDems were basically the DemSocs of today

>>2565168
Ah, that explains things
let's start anew from my proposition: the cheka was pretty rad, as far as secret polices go.

>>2565193

ok I agree. where do I sign?

>>2565201
No need, verbal agreement is all that is needed.
You and I stand for organized terror, that must frankly be admitted.

>>2564431
They ran to eco-terrorism, like anthropomorphic climate change.

Kill a commie for mommy.
Islam must die.

>Russia had to turn into a centralized authoritarian state after the revolution

It had already been one for centuries.

>>2564741
So what you're saying is we can safely say that Marx was idiot who didn't know anything?

>>2565167
A metaphor for fascism.

>>2565075
Social democracy is actually reform socialism through gradual change but not a single social democrat today believes in socialism.

>>2564607
He was always a democratic socialist. He sucked Eugene Debs' dick hard

I have a very tenuous grasp on the terminology relating to this area. Could someone clear up if this is generally right?

Marxism = The general theory of economics, politics and history that advances an argument favouring communism as the ideal human society

Socialism = State enforced socialist policies that shares resources among citizens and the means to the ends of communism

Communism = the utopic end point where everyone's needs are provided for equally and there is no need for government or hierarchy

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>>2567345
Socialism is technically "worker ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange"

While often used for state ownership, it doesn't take very long to deduce that if the state owns the MoP, the workers do not.

Naturally the word has become a total clusterfuck encompassing everything from roads to pol pot

>>2565173
It's still centrist with property ownership, free markets, taxes and welfare
It's socialism made commercial economies, that's really stretching the what can be pragmatically called "socialism" And it isn't close to libertarianism

Old school leftists like Chomsky didn't really like it, for fairly understandable reasons (gangster capitalism of the Yeltsin era and undisputed US supremacy around the globe).

New leftists are basically just neo-liberals and the Soviet Union's comparative conservatism after the 1950s always sat unwell with them, which is why they identify with causes like fag rights and nigger lives matter (they don't).

>>2564864
>How do you enforce private wealth without state enforced violence against the dispossessed?

hows about to get a job you lazy fuck

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>"WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!"

>Is a bourgeois NEET who has nothing but utter contempt for the working class, especially if they are white

what did they mean by this?

>>2568808
>Free trade and Capitalism is right!
>"OMG GOVERNMENT PROTECT ME FROM COMPETITION. MY JOOOBS! MY JOOOOOBS!
What did they mean by this?

>>2568808
>bourgeois
learn what words mean before you throw them around.

NEETs are either lumpenproles or reserve army of labor

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>>2568818

This isnt a response anon. Why do unemployed bourgeois teenagers in the west shill for something like communism when they have never worked and hate the working class?

>>2568831

Arbitrary labels don't change fact that they are useless NEETs

>>2568831

Its urban middle class, like pretty much every single western communist LARPer. Is it because you view yourself as some potential important government bureaucratic head?

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>>2568808
>>2568837

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>>2568849
'lel

>>2568843
They do however explain relationships to the means of production.

When you say "Bourgeois NEET" you're aiming to imply that they're part of the class they proclaim to want to overthrow, which is not the case. The Bourgeoisie own the means of production.

>>2568844
The general "working/middle/upper" class distinction is meaningless in marxist terms, what matters is the relationship to the means of production/capital.

Threadbare factory owners are still Bourgeoisie and well-paid oil-rig operatives are still proletarian.

>>2568859
>When you say "Bourgeois NEET" you're aiming to imply that they're part of the class they proclaim to want to overthrow, which is not the case

sure thing, now get your allowance from daddy to fund your little LARP sessions NEET.

>>2568843
You're just a useless labourer who is worth the least amount of money your boss can pay you.

>>2568865
I'd be on autismbux if anything.
(Spoiler alert: the state wouldn't give me autismbux no matter what system we had.)

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>>2568868

Nice sour grapes comment from an unemployed loser

>>2568868

t. someone who is so worthless that they cant even get the government enforced minimum requirement

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>>2568875
>>2568879
I possess a very successful small farm
The commercial economy is a sewer.

>>2568887
I hope you have no employees.

Or that anyone who works a single second on your farm also owns the means of production...

>>2568887

>Farming
>Not a part of the commercial economy

Also post farm with timestamp pls

>>2568887
>I possess a very successful small farm

no you dont

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>>2568887

>small farm
>Very successful

What do you grow, golden apples?

>>2564559
The Red army of 1939-1941 was not the Red army of 1942+.

>>2568887

I'd like to see some proof Farmer John

>>2564431
Giant pink bitter tears of treason. They were delicious. If you can get them bottled today, the price is cosmonomical but well worth it.

>>2564845
>as soon as lead tank in column gets knocked out the road is blocked and if the rear tank gets knocked out too they can't retreat
>their rifles freeze and the guns become inoperable after firing a single shot
fukken lmao

>>2564431
Very few of them cared as they felt no real affinity for the USSR which they did not see as being truly communist

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>>2566100
>1848
>Continental Europe is in full revolutionary swing; Orleans deposed, Habsburgs breaking apart their empire, German states deposing their princes and holding a congress for a federal state or constitutional monarchy, Italians kicking out the Bourbons and Habsburgs
>All of these movements fail because of ethnic/cultural war and animosity

>Write a pamphlet on why people are ultimately divided more by class than ethnicity

Karl Marx was a quality shitposter

>>2564657
>Russian Federation
Why not just post Russian SSR?

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>>2568893
>also owns the means of production.
Ownership is an illusion, property doesn't belong to anything except for the systems it is a property of. Material extrinsic to your being cannot be your own, but that's just pragmatics. Physically, life and the world it lives on cannot be functionally seperated by arbitrarily reduced metaphysical divisions people make. What happens to property effects the networks it functions in. It's nonsense to divide something that can not functionally persist divided, it's it's ecologically backwards and that has life threatening consequences.
>>2568894
>>2568895
>>2568902
>>2568986

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>that footage recently of the cops running down the street and arresting the group of antifa
>working class starts cheering and clapping

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>>2569396

>Be as esoteric and confusing as I can be and maybe people will believe me!

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>>2569430
That's because communists an socialists were always mainly supported by malcontents and cafe-dwelling "intellectuals" and the actual working class never really supported them.

>>2569447
>>Be as esoteric and confusing as I can be and maybe people will believe me!
>rhetoric I don't get is estoric1!
I don't have the motivation to make my writing percise to the unwashed masses.
It's contemporary systems and network theory/science and some pragmatics and metaphysics, keep up

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>>2569560
>I have never read about the American labour movement and shit like the Haymarket Affair, IWW, Harlan County and the work of Eugene Debs
If anything it shows that baby boomers ruin everything

>>2569447
Not him, but that mostly made sense, even if it can largely boiled down to "property is a spook, LMAO."

>>2569779
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdZp5iw-UEo on unemployment being intentional

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>>2569779
>Richard Meyer

guess the Pao Pao Cafe didnt work out.

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>>2569574

>unironically says "unwashed masses"

Hiding and quivering in half-assed talking points don't really get the job done.

Oh sure I can argue nothing really matters so who gives a shit about class conflict, property, et cetera. "Let's just all neck ourselves and get it over with"

But nobody tries to go to metaphysical land during debates because that is homosex. If people did that a typical debate would be two people talking endlessly about their own subjective philosophical shit with your ears covered.

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>>2564431
>How did Communists in America and the West react to the collapse of the Soviet Union?

They turned into Social Justice Warriors who don't give a fuck about class struggle and instead promote every fringe kook belief available.

The Occupy movement was destroyed from within by these morons, who literally kicked White male speakers off the stage who were addressing the economic situation, so gay black feminist vegan trannies could babble on about nothing.

>>2569818
>muh progressive stack

>>2569813
>>2569574

In other words, regressing to metaphysical talking points during political debates is basically like being that one kid that always says "I had an invisible shield" during play gun fights.

Fuck that kid.

>>2569813
>don't do this coz it is bad
Not even that guy but what a non-argument

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>>2569844

I want to deny it but yes, you're right. That's what my point boils down to.

It's just that there would be no point in debating, let alone living if we all just say "X is an illusion."

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but then, seriously. What's the point of debating about anything?

Like I said here >>2569840 , maybe that kid does have an invisible shield, and it is a play gun fight so it doesn't matter, but cmon don't do that.

It's just wrong.

>>2569396
Language is illusory, but you seem to use it without irony.

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>>2569813
Wtf are you talking about, property is an entirely metaphysical concept. Lmao. And a good deal of my post explained how it was a physical impossibility.

>unironically
>doesn't get irony

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>>2569856
>>2569844


Another point: how exactly are you going to "prove" that ownership is an illusion and stuff outside my own being cannot belong to me?

I can only imagine how many twists and turns I can make with that argument and it will be endless.

That's why a hypothesis must be a FALSIFIABLE and TESTABLE claim. You can neither test or debate something that can't be disproven in the first place.

That's why I don't want metaphysics in my political debates.

That's the long version of why I don't like his "ownership is an illusion" (non)argument. Are you happy now?

>>2569870
No language is just semiosis, like all other sensory-mediated information

>>2569894

You got your metaphysical idea, but can you prove that I can't own shit?

Does your idea decisively conclude that we can't own anything and we should not keep things?

People freely keep and give away things regardless of over-thought and practically useless ideas.

>>2569895
Lmao some more.
I'm not making a claim, I'm refuting ownership as a claim, go ahead and prove ownerships physical existence rofl

>>2569895
He already rejects the premise that ownership can exist, that collapses your argument

>>2569909

But what is the end to your point? There is none. It has no practical significance.

You're trying to justify a practical and worldly political policies with weighless ideals and that's wrong.

Challenge: Solidly prove that I can't own this computer. Just prove it. I think I own it. Prove it buddy.

>>2569901
>like all other sensory-mediated information
I have a very clear idea of what exactly is the information I receive from, say, a pinch, or a large butt plug in my anal cavity.
I have an assumption what the sounds that make the sentence "I am going to put a butt plug in your anal cavity", but I would hesitate to call it clear.
"means of production" may be illusory, as you say, but I have an assumed idea what it means regarding my relation to the world at large, as I do the sentence "I am going to put a butt plug in your anal cavity".

>>2569905
>you got ur metaphysical idea can u prove I can't own shit
Not to the unwashed masses
>People freely keep and give away things regardless of over-thought and practically useless ideas
I have nothing against the possession of property just the idea that it belongs to somebody. It doesn't make sense on any level physical or metaphysical.
Btw you can't own shit, you can't even posses anything freely, try to stop working and paying your taxes, then see how much property you actually own.

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>>2569827

Both the Occupy and Tea Party movements were destroyed by the fringe elements within them but this was FAR more pronounced with the leftist Occupy movement, where the fundamental message they were originally trying to promote (opposition to corporate power) wasn’t just side-lined, it was surgically removed when the kooks took complete control.

The American Left abandoned the working class with Kennedy's assassination instead threw their support behind feminists, Blacks radicals, illegal Mexicans, homosexuals, etc. and literally drove average Americans into the arms of the Reagan Republicans.

The SJW movement is more of the same x10...

>>2564571
Real communism has never been tried.
Real communism is a fucking fairy land pipe dream where there's no government and everyone shares with each other just because.

>>2569922
That's why the same tool I used to look at property ownership is applicable here, pragmatics.

I wonder far in the future if people look back on this boring, autistic cyclical manifestation of religious zealotry and think "wow, there were still true believers who genuinely dismissed every instance of 'attempted' communisitianity as 'not real' and wanted to try again and again no matter how many massacres/genocides they commit every time?"

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>>2569932

I don't like how commies like you justify redistribution of wealth just because ownership technically doesn't exist. So what?

Okay sure I get it: "ownership" itself, as a concept, doesn't exist.

So what? I'm not giving up my property because I worked for it.

Your whole metaphysical points can't touch anything in the real world. Your argument was shot down from the beginning.

>try to stop working and paying your taxes, then see how much property you actually own.

Start applying for a job, wiseguy.

>>2564431
alot of them turned to postmodern feminism, LGBTP activism, minority studies, and other identity politics.

>>2569920
That's not true at all, the concept of property ownership is detrimental to the weell-being of complex life on earth(you) and it is fundamentally authoritarian and a huge threat to liberty

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>>2569025
have a few more fun facts from the winter war
>Finland was desperately short on ammunition and its artillery was mainly ww1 museum pieces that had been refitted. Because every shot needed to count Finnish artillery spotters would wait to call in an artillery strike until they saw the rising smoke of soviet mobile kitchens. This ensured that the soviet troops would never get a hot meal.
>the soviets actually had more ski infantry than the Finns but they had simply issued skis to infantry units without giving them any special training or manuals whatsoever, they were about as effective as you might expect
>In Khrushchev's memoir he recounted an incident in January 1940 where during a dinner meeting Stalin and field marshal Kliment Voroshilov got into an argument over the continuing failure of the winter war where Stalin was really laying into him for "turning him into a laughingstock." Voroshilov apparently knocked all the food in front of him to the floor and yelled back "YOU KILLED ALL MY BEST GENERALS, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DO"
>eventually the Russians were able to overwhelm the Finnish defensive line on the Karelian isthmus because the Finns had built the line using the numerous lakes in the region as natural defenses, but it got so cold that tanks could be moved across the ice. The Finns tried to use artillery to blow holes in the lake ice but it refroze too quickly and they didn't have enough artillery for this to be effective

>>2569959

subjective opinion alert

>>2569942
So I can say "means of production" and "ownership" and be more or less fine with my nonetheless illusory understanding of the matter?
If that is the case, what was the point of saying such, if it has no gravity on the discussion? Of what relevance is either being illusory?

>>2569955
I'm not a commie. You walking propagandaYou. I'm an anarchist.
You can't own property. The last thing I want is someone to have to give up the property in their personal possession. That kind of injustice only happens under authoritarian practices like property ownership, or in times of struggle.
I'm going to assume you don't know because you seem to believe that my argument is solely metaphysical although the majority of my original comment has nothing to do with metaphysics. Remember all that ecology, systems and networks stuff?, that's all science.

>>2569964
>subjective
No, it's mainstream ecology

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>>2569993

>Remember all that ecology, systems and networks stuff?

Yeah fluff talk that, in the end, doesn't matter AT ALL in practice.

In the end your nice ideals can't touch ANYONE'S shit and their property. Nothing has changed. Okay?

Can't believe that's all that you've meant. Thanks for wasting my time.

You are done. Now fuck off.

>>2564431

They became "democratic socialists"

>>2564939
This implies that the situation was strong-armed insofar that they were "allocated" their private property and barred from employing workers

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>>2570001

Are you dense? Your comment was fundamentally an opinion. I thought you were "smart."

>No, it's mainstream ecology

Does being based on a field of study make your opinions facts?

>>2565091
Post link to song

>>2570018
>functional ecological systems don't matter
Wew
And I don't want to touch anyone's personal possessions retard.

>>2565084
>that pic
Literally AntiFa

>>2570030
No the study does.
Go learn basic landscape ecology and you can see why what I said is a fact.

>>2564431

Social democracy and communism have the same goal, social democracy is just a lot more palatable to the general public.

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>>2570037
see >>2569959

"the concept of property ownership is detrimental to the weell-being of complex life on earth(you) and it is fundamentally authoritarian and a huge threat to liberty"

>And I don't want to touch anyone's personal possessions retard

Suuure. Your hate for private possession was clearly salient since your first points. Why are you denying it so much?

>>2570044

Absolutely retarded. I can argue all day why current commercial activity on the planet is beneficial to our OVER-ALL well being. Your opinion is not one-sided fact.

>>2570072
>>2570037

I mean, if you're not going to touch our private property, whats your point in spending so much time telling us why the concept of private property is an illusion and property ownership is bad for everyone?

Just an fyi? Please.

>>2564945
im sorry but what?
you dont break into a business to apply for a job, you apply for it and they say hey come work here and get money
you are completely creating a situation where this "violence" occurs by not following the social norms, much less the laws

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>this thread

>>2564571
"Real Communism" is string theory tier, aka total shit because it can never be disproven. 6500 kingsway

>>2570089

That's their main trick, in economics they are purely empirical, they don't think it's legitimate to bring up logical reasons for why it WOULD fail. Without proof of its failure they are not satisfied.

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Just like how mostly unattractive women subscribe to feminism, only unsuccessful, poor and NEETs subscribe to socialism/communism.

The political left is literally nothing but a huge metaphor for the Fox and the Sour Grapes story.

Just a whole group of butthurt losers that belong to end via natural selection.

Really makes you think.

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>>2570072
My distinction between property ownership and property possession has been emphasized since the beginning.
Possessing property means you are currently using it, as in your worldly possessions and land you live on, the rest is to be mutual in a civil society.
Property ownership allows entities like the state and monetary wealth to control far more property than they can posses. Ownership infringes on our forgotten liberty, to freely posses personal property.

>I can argue all day
Wee you not the one just going on in all caps about scientism?
Please prove what you just said with scientific evidence

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>>2570109

I slightly disagree. Communism isn't just about hating the status quo (sour grapes), it's about just literally stealing shit from those with more.

TRIGGERED animal behavior in its purest form.

>>2570078
Private property is different from personal. The former is one you don't use, the latter is one you do

>>2570132
>private property now means "property that you aren't using"
You can't just fucking make definitions up on the fly, dipshit.

>>2564534
No they didn't. Most leftists abandoned communism during the 60s and 70s in favour of social democracy. See: the New Left

>>2570132

And who decides the difference between private and personal property? You? Democracy? In any case it would be a violation of people's personal rights

>>2570137
That's a commonly held definition. So common that another anon corrected you.
Just like ecology it's another episode of "things I don't understand don't exist"

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>>2570126

Just like you I can argue all day. Not prove or conclude anything. That's all I said.

>far more property than they can posses

define what this arbitrary limit is

_________________________________________
In the end I wonder how your ideals are going to solve everything mentioned in that chart of yours?

Capitalism and consumer technology efficiently creates and solves problems. Bickering over property won't solve shit.

You're looking at the whole thing incorrectly.

>>2570143
Pragmatism
>violation of rights
Literally the opposite, why this veiw is only held in radical liberterianism

>>2570143
>In any case it would be a violation of people's personal rights
You say that as if people's personal right have any grounding in reality.

>>2570109
>>2570129
>When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I'm rich and I complain about inequality they say I'm a hypocrite. I'm beginning to think they just don't want to talk about inequality.
>When I gave food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I asked why the poor was hungry, they call me a communist
If we must descend to ad hom, then right wingers just have Fuck You,Got Mine attitude

>>2570151
>argue
again, ecology is science
>arbitrary
what they can use personally, duh.
>solve
Equalitarianism would solve every one of those problems.
Fisheries for example would greatly benifit from not having state ownership and state subsidized exploitation buy the fishing industry.
>capitalism and consumer technology
I happen to be a mutualist and belive in markets, you idiot.

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>>2570154

...And several posts back you were all about anti-authority and liberty.

Wow, it's so easy to just say that something doesn't exist when convenient!

>>2570164
That wasn't me first of all
And right=/=liberty, contrary the concepts are often at odds.

>>2570163

Science is theory. Science is argument.

>You 1000 years ago

"listen kiddo, heliocentrism is science. F A C T."


Thinking in absolutes and every mystery of the world is figured out according to you. You must have an interesting life.

>>2570171
So you are a solipsist? Nice strawdude

>>2570152

Taking someone's possessions is a violation of rights. How the fuck could you see it as the opposite?

>>2570164
He is just pointing out that 'personal rights' is just an abstract concept ie a spook

>>2570174
Nobody's possessions should be taken, only "private property" they do not possess

>>2570163

>what they can use personally, duh.

How much might that be? Who defines that shit?

>I happen to be a mutualist and belive in markets, you idiot.

Thanks for telling me before, dipshit.

>>2570174
Declaring something to be your property is theft against all

>>2570178

and how do you distinguish between what somewhat possesses and what they don't?

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>>2570178

But how did they get those things in the first place? Wasn't it the fruits of their labor? What's wrong with that if those possessions are never stagnant? You say believe in markets. Commodities are always moving in the market and no property is truly being wasted.

Besides, who, according to your ideology gets to steal all those goodies?

Of course an unemployed fedora like you subscribes to this nonsense.

>>2570183

Who made/earned that property is who deserves it.

It's not theft from anyone but maybe "mother Earth" if you want to be an autist about it.

>inb4 my Mcdonalds manager don't deserve that much

>>2570183
>t. a loser who blames all his faults on spooky ideological hegemonic enemies

>>2570183

Humans are animals, get over it reddit. Animals mark territory, whether collectively or individually. Maybe collective ownership could work in an ethnically homogenous, small familial community like a primitive tribe. But you don't want that, you want to try extend that to all human groups - it doesn't work.

Also you are the failure in the hierarchy so you naturally want everyone to be 'equal' because you are inferior. You are a slave.

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>>2570183
see >>2570129 >>2570109


Someone wrote a full-length biography about you for free!

>>2570183

That's one of the most poisonous things I've ever heard.

>>2570183
Exactly
>>2570187
The utilize it personally, I've made the distinction many times now.
>>2570196
The problem is people are allowed to leagally own property they do not possess.
My ideaology is equalitarian.
>>2570215
Territory isn't close to property ownership. Territory is what I refer to as personal possession

>>2570229
So hunting grounds possessed by a tribe is a 'personal possession'?

>>2570234
Yes, but that isn't how personal property would work in a civilized society.

https://youtu.be/M9N3i1z01ZU Does the limpet belive it owns the rock?

>>2564712
75% of /his/

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>>2570229

You didn't clarify anything. Like WHAT is "personal use"? Several people kept asking you this multiple times. Can you elaborately back up equalitarian views? Can you do anything?

You're just making yourself look worse every new post you make.

Also I really hope you didn't "this" your own comment.

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>>2570183

this is the type of people we're dealing with, folks

>>2570245

>"civilized society"

According to your definition of civilized society, yeah.

Here are two words that you really hate: subjective opinion

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>>2570080
>artificially restrict access to means of production, enforced by the state
>haha but you can use them if you agree to my arbitrary terms and allow me to extract profit from your labor

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>>2570385

You know why persistent, competent, and successful people are not communists?

It's called git gud

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>>2570422
>persistent, competent, and successful people

>>2570455

r u insulting me boy

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>>2570183
>mfw no one recognized it as a quote by Rousseau and continue to be spooked by private property

>>2570257
Not him but personal use is when you are personally adding value to something. By that logic factories would belong to the workers coz they personally use it and not the owner who doesn't use it

>>2570455

Stay comfy, Stalin

>>2570455
Stay comfy, stalin

>>2570499

So the creators and managers, the ones that organized and founded the entire operation don't deserve a dime? Got it.

>>2570512
Those are workers too...

>>2564431
For literally anyone who isn't a ''Marxist''-''Leninist'' (AKA stalinist) it was a sigh of relief, good riddance.

>>2570515

Then what's different? The added value of a factory is profit and that profit is shared between the workers (portion according to what the value of each worker's work is).

>>2570521
And the property owner doesn't work for it? Do you even understand how capital works?

>>2570512
Shareholders don't deserve a dime. That's the long-short of it. They purely injected capital, they did nothing to actually build factory or the products, design the products, distribute, market, etc.

>>2570215
>Animals mark territory
They do not, however, extract rent from the ownership of their territory.

I can't find the image right now but there was a good comparison. There is no such thing as a Landlord bear who is paid by all the other bears for access to a given fishing area or whatever, thereby allowing that bear to sit on his bare bear arse all day.

>>2564431
There is a reason why they go REEEE NO REAL COMMUNISM!11!! whenever someone mentions USSR.

>>2565075
Sanders is a Marxist. The fact he ran on a social democratic platform is irrelevant, he just knows America would never accept a literal conmunist.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/12/george-will/george-will-reminds-readers-about-bernie-sanders-u/

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/bernie-sanders-1985-praise-of-fidel-castro-sandinistas-220550

>>2570519
I dunno, as a social democrat I miss the bad cop.
(Though the rise of neoliberalism in the 70s and 80s showed that playing good-cop-bad-cop wasn't really working anymore anyway.)

>>2570528

But purchasing share is trading your own labor (from elsewhere, via money) to buy the management work/effort of someone else. Technically nothing really changed. Water is water.

Even "injecting" capital into a factory lubricates the gears so it is a valid contribution.

>>2570525

Property owner exchanged fruits of their own labor from elsewhere (money) to purchase the property. It's not from nothing.

>>2570540
It's only a valid contribution under capitalism, an illegitimate system. You might as well argue feudalism is perfectly legitimate because the feudal lord earned his lands by primogeniture.

>>2570540
>save your money
>buy some shares
>profit on the sale of those shares
>reinvest the profit + dividends.
>repeat until very rich.
>haha i earned ALL this with MY labour, definitely not extracting surplus value from the workers anywhere haha.

>>2570540
>Property owner exchanged fruits of their own labor from elsewhere (money) to purchase the property. It's not from nothing.
Ah so they didn't put any labour into making the actual product? Got it.

>>2570540
>purchase property
???

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>>2570549
Eh now we're talking about different things then.

>>2570553

Investing is a high-skill cutthroat trade that is kill or be killed. You gain and lose everything quickly. It's why it has one of the highest suicide rate in the workplace.

It is apparent that you have a bias in terms of what type of labor is valued more.

If investing was so easy as you describe you would be doing it too.

>>2570568
>Investing is a high-skill cutthroat trade that is kill or be killed.
And? So's robbing banks.
Being an investor is not labor, it's speculation. The point isn't difficulty, it's the type of labor. Using a small token of your dead labor to extract large tokens of everyone else's is not a productive activity.

(Well, if you're playing with someone else's cash for a wage, maybe it's arguably labor, but then the profits are going to the person who handed you the cash, so the point remains the same - he's a cunt.)

>>2570556

Hey it's one of the "property doesn't exist" freaks. Next question.

>>2570555

Is there anything wrong? Transfer of money is the pure transfer of labor. Nothing unusual.

Doesn't have to be confined in one "factory" What if the world economy is one big factory?

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>>2570572

Investors are just jugglers of world labor. They don't fundamentally steal or create labor, they just buy and sell it. They're just idiots that want quick cash. Many succeed and fail. So be it.

Look, I too think speculation/investment is a cancer in the market, and it's one huge flaw of the current economical system. We just disagree about what the solution is.

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>>2564638

You'd have to be a real masochist to bother to learn o]about the history of leftist ideolgy, not to mention the philosopic angle of it.
Oh and of course, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to think its a good idea if your even slightly learned on the subject, hence why most smart people dont buy into the whole "lets try communism again!" thing.

People who have lived through communism easily shut up those who advocate it.

>>2570574
>Transfer of money is the pure transfer of labor.
It immediately follows that profit is the extraction of someone else's labor.

>>2570580
Ultimately businesses are beholden to their owners (more often than not shareholders, since petit-bourgise are a special case) extracting profit from the difference between the value of what workers produce and the amount workers are paid. (this includes, down the line, even expenses that are technically contracting another company, who in turn operate on the same principle, so ultimately all costs will be encompassed here including raw resources, etc, etc.)

if labor is being juggled, it's been taken away from the one person with a right to it: the laborer himself.

(I mean personally I don't even argue for any change, necessarily, I just think there's value to understanding the position.)

>>2570582
>People who have lived through communism easily shut up those who advocate it.
They don't though, they just talk shit.
>hurr the EU has a parliament and moscow had a parliament clearly the EU is the re-imposition of communism

It's an amazing testament to human failure, however, that even the people living under societies that made it pretty damn clear communism was in the future tense (such as soviet leaders saying "our children will live under communism!") still classify what they lived under as "communism". If you want a testament to the failure of authoritarian states run by vanguard parties, that's definitely it.

Not even a commie, it's stupid bullshit that - even if it'd work if set in motion from a blank slate - simply cannot be implemented, but god damn if another fucking slav immigrant tells me how taxation is communism I'll report him to the DHS myself.

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>>2570589

I just think that the problems with Capitalism is crony capitalism; the bosses are not paying the fair and exact amount that the workers actually deserve. Basic Wal-Mart CEO fuckery. If the Bosses pay the fair amount of their labor then it is A-ok for me.

I just don't really see the need to go all the way to "seizing" this and that.

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>>2570604

In theory, communism and communism both work perfectly.

In theory. Expect flaws.

Anyways would be interesting to see a non-communist/socialist anti-crony capitalism capitalist revolution. That would be something else for sure.

>>2570608

*communism and capitalism

>>2564431
Who would build factories in an anarcho-communist society, and why would they do it how would they motivate the factory building workers to build the factory? How would hospitals/schools/police/army function would they have leaders or? How would you pay for scientific programs? How do you even make decisions, democracy? What if 10 people vote to kill a single person they dont like, who would prevent that?

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>>2570608

Yeah I am annoyed that most fellow capitalists have a staunch and stubborn "no it's fine" attitude when debating communists.

It's fine to admit capitalism currently has flaws; it's not like communism doesn't. That's how we can solve the existing problems instead of just arguing that everything is great (not true).

>>2570627

Any anarcho- is a pipe dream. Just like fascist or communist utopias. Not happening.

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>>2570628

>>2568887
>very successful
>small farm
>possess
>ownership is an illusion
FUCK OFF

>>2570630
i just want that anarchist in this tread to answer my questions

>>2570644

The "ownership is an illusion" guy? He's long gone buddy. Didn't answer my questions for hours

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>>2570595
though agree in the case of soviet satallite states it was a case of illitarate yokels moaning that big daddy USSR was not giving enough gibs to them thus the were bad, there are legimate reasons to not want communism again. Purging seems to be quite common.
For example, even southern american expats complain of communist policies, sometimes it differs but the over all feeling is communism doesnt work with mans inhernt selfish behaviours.

So unless you make the masses robots or from cradle to grave only feed them communist ide4as and behaviour, you will always have rebellious cowboys and strife.

Im not big on the EU or Massive goverment either btw as im a staunch nationalist personally (plz dont let that skewer your opinion of my argument/feel like im trying to hurt your ideolgy for the sake of it)

>>2570628
There are no flaws in Capitalism, just losers.

>>2570666

Well if you really force yourself to step back and take a second look, yeah, you're right. Kind of.

If the capitalist market is left to its own devices, even behemoths like monopolies break up eventually (let it take 1 year or 1000, it will happen).

However, when there are regulations (laws) interfere and one guy has more lawyers than the next, there are unnatural obstructions to the free market and larger guys can stomp down on weaker competition without an actual competition.

Is capitalism perfect?
>no it isnt
is it the best system that exists today?
>yes it is
you need to stop blaming everyone else for your mistakes (capitalism/society/parents/jews/niggers/women/muslims/enviroment/teachers)
if you are not born with serious physical deficiencies(not autism) you have no reason to be a fuck up in life even people with down syndrome can work and be an usefull part of society so can you.
For a state of mind the world is now capitalism is a good system, will communism ever work? no it wont. Imo every ideology who has an enemy is not good for health of humanity

>>2570691
>even people with down syndrome can work and be an usefull part of society so can you.
Permanent unemployment is essentially a design feature of modern capitalism, let alone underemployment.

(tbf the solution could be as simple as Post-Keynesianism displacing whatever the hell we call the post-washington consensus period that's basically still the washington consensus but we can't call it that because the name is tainted by 2008.)

>>2564431
I dont know about the rest of europe but but where im from the communist party is exacly the same it changed notthing it even has grown um recent years

>>2564845
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHrndb0oZEc

The winter war was one of the most interesting things that happened in WWII

>>2570693
and how would you fix that?
give everyone a job?

im from yugoslavia witch is often on /his/ portrayed as a perfect socialist/communist country but it had big problems with factories employing too many people (beacuse no uneployment) leading to people going to job just to sit and do nothing all day and since factories coudnt pay all those people it led to the decay of many companies and the whole economy

>>2570720
It's one suggestion: Instead of having welfare, have a job garuntee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee
(Alternatively, you can just fiddle with policy to push employment as close to full as you can get it, while still accepting some unemployment and just hoping it's temporary.)

The US actually had an act to try it passed in 1978, but the president never used the powers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey%E2%80%93Hawkins_Full_Employment_Act

>>2570728
yes thats what i said yugoslavia had a Job guarantee witch also meant a lot of people didnt give a fuck because they would knew they would get a job anyway

>>2564431
I was in 5th grade when it collapsed, and I remember my teacher explaining that some major world even had occurred recently, but I had no idea what she was talking about

>it wasn't real communism

>>2570604
Oh please the current problems you think of as crony capitalism is exactly the same shit back in Gilded Age before the labour movement and based Theodore rekt their shit. If anything crony capitalism is the true blue "my perfect capitalism has never been tried before"

>>2570800
there are all kinds of capitalisms and they work

>>2570808
Which? The neoliberalism nightmare that is wrecking shit up or the social democracies that are socialism 0.5?

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In Sweden Lars Ohly allegedly cried when the berlin wall fell, he later tried to claim it was happy tears in the media.

My dads friend worked in some publication for the communist party (the left party) and he got excommunicated for unearthing evidense that Swedish commies sent information on people to Soviet so under Soviet rule they would know who to gulag.

Stalinists are evil

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>mfw i see college kids promoting communism in vain in the street

>>2570849
the world you live in witch is still best considering the alternatives(communism/anarchism)

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>>2570862
Marxist thinking certainly left a mark on your nation.

Looks like some spectres ar alive and well fucking up your sovreign state...

I pray your next, few remaining young swedes dont fall into the same trappings the traitorous parents generation did.

A good dose of right wing thinking right now will be the only way sweden as it should remain thought of will exist in 20 years.

>>2570913
i wouldn't really say that marxism is dominant in Sweden. Social democracy on the other hand used to be the far norm. used to be our government was 70% Social democrats and our country flourished under them and was very white. It wasn't until the right wing neoliberals and conservative government under Reinfeldt whos slogan was "open arms" and "humanitarian great power" that Sweden started becomming the feminist refugee dystopia it is today.

seems like you read too much 4chan, It was right wingers that killed Sweden cause they wanted cheap workers and a fragmented working class.

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>>2564578
>Real communism wouldn't've failed
You don't know that.

>>2564606
>look at Venezuela, Socialism isn't working!
>Country run by drug cartels and drug money

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>>2571631
But we can look specifically at what failed in places like the Soviet Union. We can see that it was collectivization specifically that caused their famines while tanks were able to roll off the assembly line just fine.

>>2570295

Rather work with them than the others, those who kill people in the name of their religion who has caused more terror in the modern age than any other and continually preach (lies) peace, despite killing and raping people en mass around the world.

>>2570183
Ahahahahahahaah

>>2570750
I'm going to wager in Yugoslavia, it was treated as a normal job though, whereas under a Western job garuntee it's basically a replacement for welfare (which already pays people to do nothing.) Strictly, the government could probably fire you for not making an effort (just like it can currently throw you off welfare for not trying to find a job in some countries.)

>>2570317
Contemporary humanity but with functioning anarchism

>>2573663

jesus did you just revive this thread

>>2570257
Personal use is the means the physical exploitation of property by the individual in question, so all of their personal belongings(including their home). But not the land surrounding their home, because land cannot be personal. Land should be mutually exploited with the well being of the life on top of it, the major consideration. People can exploit the land individually, or with socialism/syndicalism, as there would be both markets and public goods. Land use is conceived by people and planned with science and ethics.
>back up
What?
>Samefag
No

>>2573666
Sorry for scaring you Satan

>>2573711

Well that's your opinion. Thanks!

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>>2564431

>>2565091
Are you thinking of the ballad of sacco and vanzetti

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>>2570937

Maybe thats true because im not an avid follower of swedish political history but quite honestly it doesnt matter anymore, you need to sort your nation out and vote ethno-concious ultra nationlists (even if that is considered 'illigal' or 'Racist' by your leftist dystopian goverment and media...)

Basiclly, nothing less than Nazis for you at this point for 50+ years at a minimum.

Prehaps you might scoff at this but I say this because i care, Sven. I want to be able to have my grandkids see sweden as i saw it as a little boy on a school trip, full of swedish children as blonde nordics that have a funny souding language and pleasant, unique architecture. Not a colder Mogadishu with the brown hordes.

>>2565032
>democratic means free market.
looks like some one need to take the Žižek pill.

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>>2570109
>Just a whole group of butthurt losers that belong to end via natural selection.
fuck that's real spooky

>>2570937
>Leftists are so disillusioned they think Reinfeldt is the cause of open borders, even when the migrant crisis didn't even happen with his party in government
Du är inte bara autistisk, du är även efterbliven.

>>2575328
Sweden isn't going to become a colder mogadishu with brown hordes, no matter what happens.