Roman culture and civilisation becomes a whole lot less impressive

It was cultural diffusion which made them both stronger and weaker in several ways.

>>2553190
Greek culture and civilisation becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realise that they basically aped everything from the Germanics.

The Greeks invented love, the Romans introduced it to women.

>>2553200
Germanic culture and civilisation becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realise that they basically aped everything from the Romans.

>>2553200
Like what?

>>2553190
>Roman culture like sir pantheon is a copy and paste of Greek culture
Fucking kys. The Romans just found that their gods had a number of things in common so they drew counterparts. Also they both descend from the older Indo-European beliefs.

Romans took a whole lot of things from a whole lot of cultures

it's like America don't really have a culture of their own so they just take from everyone else while hating them at the same time.

And the Greeks borrowed from Persia.
And Persia borrowed from Babylon
And Babylon borrowed from Egypt

>>2553200
lolno.

>>2553281
That's so wrong I can't even fathom how you came up with it.

>>2553225
Apollo is one of their most popular gods and he was lifted wholesale from Greece. Literally no equivalent.

>>2553225
Nope. Roman gods are literally just Greek gods with different names.

>>2553190
The italic pantheon is basically the same as the greek one, true. Also the same as the celtic one. And the germanic one. And basically every single pantheon of indoeuropean origin, you fucking moron. European politheism is literally older than the indoeuropean invasions, it's basically the same from Portugal to Siberia.

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>>2553281
More like Greeks borrowed from Egypt, also look at early Greek god depiction

>>2553290
He's partially right in the first statement, correct on the second. Flat out wrong on the last.

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>>2553311
Pic related

>>2553290
>he thinks pagan pantheons are invented in a vacuum

Rome, Greece, Egypt and Babylon have identical gods. They just name them differently. It's all fallen angels and nephilim demons.

>>2553305
Yes yes
Ares and Mars, Athena and Minerva are the same
Chronos and saturnus are the same
Ianus is the typical greek god

>>2553221
Socrates and Plato were Nordic, for example.

>>2553327
Ares and Mars are actually very different interpretations of the "god of war" concept. In fact, you could almost argue that Mars is closer to Athena than to Ares in what he means to roman religion.

>>2553200
more like Minoans, Phoenicians, Egyptians.

>>2553330
>Nordic
They were Anglo man

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>>2553210
Romans continued Greek traditions.

>>2553200
Wat? Not even remotely close to true.

>>2553319
That's a kore not a god but yeah it's definitely Egyptian-influenced, as was all of their art forms in the Orientalizing period.

>>2553336
This.
Mars stands for the concept of peace and security through militaristic conquest, while Ares represents the horror and atrocities of war.
To be fair though, Mars was given most of Ares' myths after the merger despite having different origins and being of different character.

>>2553200
>>2553330
WE WUZ PHILOSOPHERS UND SHEISSE

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>>2553330
lmao Socrates is as fucking Pelasgian as they come.
Plato and Aristotle you might be able to argue though.

>>2553394
>To be fair though, Mars was given most of Ares' myths after the merger despite having different origins and being of different character.
This could pretty much be said of every single roman divinity. The original interpretation of roman religion is a lot closer to the celtic and germanic mythos than it is to the greek pantheon, which was a clusterfuck of semitic influences pretty much since the early bronze age.
Juno and Mars get shafted the worst, but frankly Jupiter, Venus and company don't fare much better.

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>>2553190
If the Greeks are so superior why were they conquered by the Romans so easily?

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>>2553375
Early period Apollo looks like Semitic god

>>2553326
But how did the Greeks copy their pantheon from fucking Persia when Zoroastrianism is a monotheist religion? Absolutely nothing to do with Greek pantheon whatsoever.

Babylon was an important seat of the Achaemenid Empire, so you do have a point there.

But Babylonian pantheon doesn't have any connection with the Egyptian one. Babylonian gods were just newer versions of the older Sumerian gods.

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>>2553415
>socrates
proto-fedora
>Plato and Aristotle
only ones worth a damn

>>2553422
>get shafted
Interesting way to look at it. Sure they lost their conceptions as mysterious abstractions and were more or less anthropomorphized, but imo that only served to enrich the mythology overall.

And it's not like the Greeks were the first ones to fuck around with Roman religion either. The original Roman triad of Jupiter-Mars-Quirinius quickly became that of Jupiter-Juno-Minerva by directly copying the Etruscan system.

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>>2553439
What happened?

>>2553190
Hail Iesous

>>2553433
Most of them didn't care anyway. They were sick of Macedonian and Seleucid aggression, plus the Romans were already Hellenized enough that they could easily continue to Hellenize the world, with the Greeks getting all the benefits of being protected under a powerful state.

>>2553446
>but imo that only served to enrich the mythology overall
I think that on some levels that comes down to taste.
Really my complaint is pretty much about how Hera and Ares are pretty much useless bitches exemplifying mostly negative concept in greek myth, whereas Juno and Mars basically represent the behavioural ideal of women and men in roman myth.

>>2553456
Greek mercs who fought for egypt brought back home knowledge of anatomy and aesthetics.

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>>2553439
Well the evolution of the Kouros is mostly from Egyptian archetypes, with maybe a Levantine or Anatolian influence here or there.

>>2553456
Contrapposto. They realized how important a good ass is.

>>2553471
I agree, but I guess there's only so much we can know about the early Romans' conception of their gods before they got Greek'd.
I wonder how many records we would have had about them, plus early Roman religious practices, if Rome wasn't sacked in the early Republic. Fucking Gauls.

>>2553281
And Egypt borrowed from Ethiopia.

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>>2553521

>>2553330
Here's your (you)

>>2553512
>I wonder how many records we would have had about them, plus early Roman religious practices, if Rome wasn't sacked in the early Republic.
On that topic, I wonder how many more records we'd have if the romans didn't fucking insist on wooden temples in a city where fires happened daily until Augustus' time. Not to mention the fact that roman religion was basically mysteric at almost every level, with most of the actual theology being strictly limited to inducted priests.
I mean fuck, oral transmission sucks dicks. All the knowledge about augury, aruspicion (?) and the Bona Dea died 1700 years ago. It's a fucking disgrace it is.

>>2553456
The Greeks got better at sculpture is what happened.

>>2553249
It needs to continue with Greece getting turned into Rome 2.0

>>2553225
>they both descend from the older Indo-European beliefs

this is true

Vedic religion has this thing about fire. Vestal virgins and shit, amirite?

>>2553563
this

>>2553200
Germanic culture and civilisation becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realise that they basically aped everything from the Africans.

>>2553190
>slowpoke.jpg

How important was Greek culture for Rome to become the main mediterranean power anyway?
Were they already so Hellenized when they ravaged Carthage? Seems to me Greekaboism is mostly a later phenomena when they were already established.

>>2553309
you cant possibly believe this to be true.

good lord, ive seen some dumb shit on here, but jesus.

>>2553439
>worshipping a broke dick motherfucker

>>2553445
aristotle maybe

>>2553656
>How important was Greek culture for Rome to become the main mediterranean power anyway?
Not important at all. In fact you could very well argue that Rome only really got greek'd after they reached top dog status.
>Were they already so Hellenized when they ravaged Carthage?
That's kinda when the hellenization started. In the 2nd century BC Rome was still traditional, but was starting to receive strong eastern influences through their subjugation of Greece.
Mind you, a modicum of greek culture existed since the beginning, but you can only start talking of hellenization from the late republic onward.

>>2553445
>Plato worth a damn despite preempting all his positions from socrates

Socrates was a monotheist you moron. He was as far away from fedora as you can get in his age without jumping ship to Israel.

>>2553200
You appear to have made a typo and clearly meant "phoenician & persian" instead of "german"

>>2553716
>doesn't realize that the greeks had a concept of a most high God above the petty human-like gods of their mythology

>>2553656
Rome was getting Hellenized much earlier than most people think, or that Romaboos like to admit.
You have to remember you had Etruria in the North and Magna Graecia in the south.

The difference is that the first wave of Hellenization (Monarchy into Middle Republic) was done under the hood and very slowly, while the second wave (after the Republic conquered Greece) was done much more consciously and directly. Not to mention the occasional Greek revival periods that would happen in the Augustan age, Hadrianic age, etc.

>>2553745
I didn't say German I said Germanic, learn to read you mental cripple.

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>>2553716
t. fedora pro

>>2553716
Almost nothing of Plato's material is lifted from Socrates, except the dialectical system and his emphasis on humanist concepts like virtue. Platonism is mostly inherited from Pythagoras, Parmenides, and other pre-Socratics. Socrates didn't go around talking about the Forms or anything that defines Platonism.

>>2553806
>Socrates didn't go around talking about the Forms or anything that defines Platonism.
how do you know this? we don't have any writings from Socrates. I mean isn't Plato our main source for what Socrates said, regardless of how trustworthy he is?

>>2553789
One would argue that the first phase you speak of can't be called hellenization, because SOME cultural influence from your neighbours is inevitable.
I mean, there's certainly plenty of foreign influences in american culture for example, but you don't say it's in the process of being say sinificated, or even mexicanized (tho this second one can be argued).

>>2553823
>isn't Plato our main source for what Socrates said

no, there is also Xenophon. Aristophanes counts in my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clouds

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>>2553228

>it's like America don't really have a culture of their own

uhhh, try again sweetie

>>2553326
kys

>>2553559
I think the wooden temples were an Etruscan thing the Romans just never bothered to get away from.
>Bona Dea
I was just reading about the Bona Dea scandal yesterday. It's fucking amazing how that one guy Clodius more or less ruined the entire cult because he decided to be a kinky ass pervert one night.

>>2553823
The fact that Socrates' other pupils like Xenophon have completely different philosophies from Plato (I think he might have even criticized Plato for not following what Socrates said, I remember reading something like that) are enough to separate some of what Socrates actually said from what Plato came up with.

>>2553874
>just never bothered to get away from
I just wish they had thought to get the temple archives away from those damned firetraps. You know that the sibilline books literally had to be written thrice (by three different "oracles" too) because they kept being incinerated? I mean come the fuck on.

>>2553855
your burgers come from germany, your guns and bullets from europe. checkmate

>>2553828
I definitely agree that the early stage wasn't anything as deep as what came later, for sure. Probably about the same level, maybe even less, as how much Greece was being influenced by the Near East mythologically and Egypt artistically.

>>2553897
>burgers
>from Germany
The only German thing about it is the name.

>>2553200
>Germanic """culture"""

>>2553897

>your burgers come from germany

Burgers have about a million different conflicting origin stories and nobody knows where they really came from. Anyone who claims otherwise is either an ignorant piece of shit like yourself or the manager of a local "we invented the burger" tourist trap restaurant.

>>2554189
>piece of shit
Only leftists say piece of shit. Are you a leftist?

>>2554189

The word Burger is of German origin. Same as Frankfurter, which is the real name for hot dogs. Hot dog came into style during WWI, kind of a fake meat version of freedom fries.

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>>2553855
>Tfw my house is older than the USA

>>2554207
>culture means old shit

>>2554207
whatever. those old ass houses are built like shit that's why they're always renovating them every 50 years.

>>2553299
Apollo does have his origins in Greece and he did hold a place in Roman society but he just one case. Other gods such as Ares, being a god of war, simply drew parallels from the Romans to Mars even though the two have rather different characters and Mars held a higher place in the Roman system. Also there is the example of Janus who was a Roman god of beginnings and ends and one to which no Greek deity could compare so he is undoubtly an example of pure Roman belief.

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>>2554249
At least they're not made of fucking wood.

>>2554207
>he lives in a crumbling shamble
Unless you're gonna spout about how almost all of it is modern from renovation, in which case we've got ourselves a Theseus's ship.

>>2554279
>he lives in a crumbling shamble
Dunno about you m8, but this house has been fine ever since I've lived in it. We've barely had a leakage in the last 20 years. So, try again.

>>2554201

I'm not a leftist. I have a job and prefer keeping the money I make. Centrally planned economies are always disasters. Your assumption is totally nonsensical. Everyone says piece of shit. It's a super-common phrase.

>>2554203

>The word Burger is of German origin.

Nobody has disputed that. The origin of the word burger isn't the same thing as the origin of the burger itself.

>>2553456
Looks like they stopped stealing Egyptian culture and managed to create their own

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>>2553190

Greek culture and civilization becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realize that they threw it away by refusing to unify.

There were Greek city-states throughout the Mediterranean but each one insisted on it's independence and being it’s own boss and this made them easy pickings for the Romans who created a unified nation then an empire.

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>>2553200
As a real-life philosopher I have to say: this is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard.

Ancient greek culture either made up its own culture or borrowed it from Egypt or the (Near) East.
But Germanics? No. Hell, no.

There's a theory that merchants from the East have brought certain philosophies / ideas to Greek city states.
It was probably a thing.

Also Greek people had this weird cultural boner for Egyptian stuff.
They saw ancient Egypt like we see ancient Greek now.
They respected them and thought that they were more sophisticated and "wiser" than them.
That's how Plato tells us the story of Atlantis: he heard the tale from Egyptian priests.

>>2555370
>Greek culture and civilization becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realize that they threw it away by refusing to unify.

Indeed.

Also Athens always wanted to rule the others and fuck up all their treaties.

Romans actually resisted Greek Influence more than most Italics.

They got most of it second hand from the Etruscans, who were huge Hellaboos, and Cato preached against Hellenic Influence.

As for the Gods, the Roman Pantheon is not the Greek pantheon, but a similar one derived from the same common ancestor.

The Roman concept of divinity was actually a lot more complex than the earlier Greek one.

>>2553190
>that they basically aped everything from the Greeks.
Which is lesson #1

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>>2555380

Anglo culture and civilisation becomes a whole lot less impressive once you realise that they basically aped everything from the French.

>>2553200
WE

>>2555388

what is the roman concept of divinity

>>2553225
Don't you realize that ancient Romans were one of Greek colonies?

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>>2558643
Magna Graecia was in South Italy, retard. Rome was founded by Etruscans though.

>>2553217
>aped everything from the Romans
>Germanics stealing from other Germanics
lamao?
>>2553200
Amen, My Nordic brother, hail Odin, to Valhalla.
>>2553351
>small mouth
>sharp nose
>wavy hair
Pure Nord.

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>>2558707

>>2555388
>The Roman concept of divinity was actually a lot more complex than the earlier Greek one.
It was more abstracted, but only because it was less developed and more archaic. Plus Roman religion was controlled by the state, whereas Greek religion was vastly different with a local flavor depending on what city you visited. No way Roman religion was more "complex" than Greek.

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>>2553200

>>2553200
HOL DA FUK UP

>>2553200
WE WUZ GREEKS N SHIEEEEEEEEEETTTTT

>>2553210
Subtle

>>2558951
I said concept of divinity, not religion.

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>>2553200
anon...

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>>2553200

Would've made much more sense if you said Greeks were influenced a ton by Egyptian culture but no you fucked it up

>>2555980
Nope. Not baiting.

Philosophy is actually my profession.
I know stuff like this.

>>2553190

and the celts, and phonecians, and etruscans and egiptians and ...

>>2560474

What does that mean? Genuinely curious, I find Roman religion extremely interesting

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It's almost as if neighbouring cultures interact with each other and especially more powerful/prosperous ones have greater influence

hail perkuna

Whats your point? Greeks stole finish culture?

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>>2553200
There is literally nothing wrong with germanics.